Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Pannaliciour]

Seeing the manga, Beerus was playing around with full power Vegeta. And stomped him. Vegito is on other level but so is Beerus when on full power. I just can't see Vegito defeating Beerus that easily.

Besides, is it just me or did ssj rage Vegeta better then mastered ssjb Vegeta in the manga?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So the humans are weaker than the ssj kids, let alone their fused ssj3 form. Well, no duh. This is Toei, they put in whatever will look coolest at the moment with no regard for anything else.

If you told them "copy vegeta destroyed ssj3 gotenks, and copy vegeta is equal to base vegeta, who is equal to base goku, who stalemated krillin, so krillin is stronger than ssj3 gotenks", they would look at you like you were insane. Thats about 4 steps further they are capable of thinking.

Only way to make sense of Copy Vegeta is to say he used SBG base, other than that the Toei writers clearly fucked up in regards to power scaling now that this little tidbit of information has been made available to us.

That, and the idea that Krillin legitimately stalemated a serious base Goku is ridiculous.

I prefer the idea that Krillin matched Goku in martial arts prowess and skill, thus allowing him to hold out for longer than if Goku decided to go flying brick against him.

With Copy-Vegeta, he had no respect for SS3 Gotenks and decided to do the flying brick routine. If he treated it as an actual fight, Gotenks might've had a better chance at doing something. But then again, Gotenks isn't that great of a martial artist.

The way I see it, there are two primary styles of combat: flying brick, and overall martial artist. The former is only effective if you have a secure power advantage over your opponent and leaves you unable to do much else. The latter allows a more fluid and rounded ability to engage in combat with a multitude of foes that can be weaker or stronger than you, but it also potentially leaves you vulnerable if you don't maintain your guard.

[Helios518]

Seeing the manga, Beerus was playing around with full power Vegeta. And stomped him. Vegito is on other level but so is Beerus when on full power. I just can't see Vegito defeating Beerus that easily.

Besides, is it just me or did ssj rage Vegeta better then mastered ssjb Vegeta in the manga?

It may look like it but I’m positive, Beerus used way less power against Rageta than he did against CSSJB Vegeta.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Seeing the manga, Beerus was playing around with full power Vegeta. And stomped him. Vegito is on other level but so is Beerus when on full power. I just can't see Vegito defeating Beerus that easily.

Besides, is it just me or did ssj rage Vegeta better then mastered ssjb Vegeta in the manga?

Beerus was just letting vegeta hit I’m in the manga. And he was INSANELY suppressed at the time, only unleashing a tiny of his power against ssg goku

[GodVegetto91]

Based on actual powerscaling, regardless of wether things make sense, SSJ Blue Vegetto from the Future Trunks arc is now FAR weaker than the top tier ToP characters.

SSJ Blue Vegito (FT Arc) < UI Omen Goku 110 < Supressed Jiren 110 < UI Omen Goku 116/Kefla < episode 122 SSJ Blue Vegeta (he performed way better against Jiren than UI Omen Goku did!) < SSJ Blue Goku who was keeping up with a MORE POWERFUL Jiren < SSJ Blue Evolution Vegeta/KK X20 SSJ Blue Goku < Android 17 based on feats (which makes no sense, but that’s what the feats say) < Jiren < Current UI Omen Goku < Jiren < Mastered UI Goku!

As you can see, both Merged Zamasu and SSJ Blue Vegetto are so far behind Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku and Jiren now, it’s not even funny anymore.

As much as I would like to disagree, i don’t see how ssb vegito is on beerus tier at all either. I don’t believe ssb vegito is anywhere near MUI goku, who is still going to be unable to defeat Jiren.

It’s the same thing with SSJ2 Kefla. Regardless of wether it makes sense, she IS portrayed stronger than SSJ Blue Vegetto from the Future Trunks arc based on simple powerscaling.

Logically, SSJ Blue Vegetto should be stronger than SSJ2 Kefla for obvious reasons. But this is not what the actual show would have us belief if we are to believe the statements, feats and powerscaling of the Tournament of Power.

[HeroR]

Only way to make sense of Copy Vegeta is to say he used SBG base, other than that the Toei writers clearly fucked up in regards to power scaling now that this little tidbit of information has been made available to us.

That, and the idea that Krillin legitimately stalemated a serious base Goku is ridiculous.

I prefer the idea that Krillin matched Goku in martial arts prowess and skill, thus allowing him to hold out for longer than if Goku decided to go flying brick against him.

With Copy-Vegeta, he had no respect for SS3 Gotenks and decided to do the flying brick routine. If he treated it as an actual fight, Gotenks might've had a better chance at doing something. But then again, Gotenks isn't that great of a martial artist.

The way I see it, there are two primary styles of combat: flying brick, and overall martial artist. The former is only effective if you have a secure power advantage over your opponent and leaves you unable to do much else. The latter allows a more fluid and rounded ability to engage in combat with a multitude of foes that can be weaker or stronger than you, but it also potentially leaves you vulnerable if you don't maintain your guard.

That's the opposite of what happened since Copy-Vegeta praised Gotenks for his effort and strength. So he does respect him.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

That, and the idea that Krillin legitimately stalemated a serious base Goku is ridiculous.

I prefer the idea that Krillin matched Goku in martial arts prowess and skill, thus allowing him to hold out for longer than if Goku decided to go flying brick against him.

With Copy-Vegeta, he had no respect for SS3 Gotenks and decided to do the flying brick routine. If he treated it as an actual fight, Gotenks might've had a better chance at doing something. But then again, Gotenks isn't that great of a martial artist.

The way I see it, there are two primary styles of combat: flying brick, and overall martial artist. The former is only effective if you have a secure power advantage over your opponent and leaves you unable to do much else. The latter allows a more fluid and rounded ability to engage in combat with a multitude of foes that can be weaker or stronger than you, but it also potentially leaves you vulnerable if you don't maintain your guard.

That's the opposite of what happened since Copy-Vegeta praised Gotenks for his effort and strength. So he does respect him.

And he didn't treat the whole ordeal as a real fight, thus why he didn't bother putting up his guard and trying to match Gotenks's movements; he instead went with merely taking Gotenks's blows because he had the power to do so and only went with a few occasional strikes.

[Bullza]

So if Goku has mastered Ultra Instinct then what separates him from Whis at this point?

[dragon boss z]

So if Goku has mastered Ultra Instinct then what separates him from Whis at this point?

His power level and power set.

[dbgtFO]

So if Goku has mastered Ultra Instinct then what separates him from Whis at this point?

Power and maybe stamina consumption

[Bullza]

But we don't really know how Whis' power level would compare would we? He's stronger than Beerus but now Goku is too.

Unless it comes down to the fact that Whis could casually take Beerus out with a little chop but Goku probably couldn't.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So if Goku has mastered Ultra Instinct then what separates him from Whis at this point?

I'd say the sophistication with which Goku utilizes the Ultra Instinct.

There's being able to dodge and attack without thought, and then there's being able to do so with the greatest level of Ki control and stamina-loss minimization possible, as well as what kinds of advanced maneuvers can be used instinctually over basic punches and evasions.

Masters of the Ultra Instinct like Whis would likely have more finely tuned and complex instinctual reactions compared to Goku, who's a bit straightforward in his defense and offense right now. For example, Whis's Ultra Instinct might go for a pressure-point chop that instantly disables rather than landing a solid punch that simply hits really hard. In this same vein, Daishinkan's Ultra Instinct would be even further refined from his children's usage; his body might be able to fluidly move and control itself so well that a mere finger can be used to block even the strongest hits from beings like a Hakaishin.

I prefer this approach because it means that even more martial arts influence can take hold instead of a reliance on power all the time.

[Kenneth La Torre]

So if Goku has mastered Ultra Instinct then what separates him from Whis at this point?

Power level. He is stated to be perhaps stronger than beerus, and whis can tap beerus into a coma.

[brett wheeler]

So if Goku has mastered Ultra Instinct then what separates him from Whis at this point?

This is the difference.

Goku MUI:hey beerus, let's have round 2
Beerus:this should be fun, let's fight

On the other side of things

Whis: lord beerus let's have a little sparring match,you seem a bit sluggish
Beerus: ohhhhh hell naw to the naw naw naw

[ZenkaiBoosts]

So if Goku has mastered Ultra Instinct then what separates him from Whis at this point?

Power level. He is stated to be perhaps stronger than beerus, and whis can tap beerus into a coma.

Yep. Just like how if Kuririn attained UI he still would get wrecked by Goku lol

[Kenneth La Torre]

So if Goku has mastered Ultra Instinct then what separates him from Whis at this point?

Power level. He is stated to be perhaps stronger than beerus, and whis can tap beerus into a coma.

Yep. Just like how if Kuririn attained UI he still would get wrecked by Goku lol

Pretty much that

[Kaiosama]

The anime did a poor job of showing how powerful SSB Vegito was, but the Manga did a much better job. SSB Vegito has to be more powerful than SSJ2 Kefla. Especially when you consider how powerful the individual fighters are who make up the fusion. A SSJ2 and LSSJ vs two SSB's. This is also without Vegito using MSSB. I'm not even sure his fusion could hold up for a couple minutes in that form and UI or SSBEvolution is out of the question. Instant defuse.

[wolflonnie]

The anime did a poor job of showing how powerful SSB Vegito was, but the Manga did a much better job. SSB Vegito has to be more powerful than SSJ2 Kefla. Especially when you consider how powerful the individual fighters are who make up the fusion. A SSJ2 and LSSJ vs two SSB's. This is also without Vegito using MSSB. I'm not even sure his fusion could hold up for a couple minutes in that form and UI or SSBEvolution is out of the question. Instant defuse.

This. Bad execution is what makes seem Kefla stronger than Vegetto.

[Kenneth La Torre]

The anime did a poor job of showing how powerful SSB Vegito was, but the Manga did a much better job. SSB Vegito has to be more powerful than SSJ2 Kefla. Especially when you consider how powerful the individual fighters are who make up the fusion. A SSJ2 and LSSJ vs two SSB's. This is also without Vegito using MSSB. I'm not even sure his fusion could hold up for a couple minutes in that form and UI or SSBEvolution is out of the question. Instant defuse.

This. Bad execution is what makes seem Kefla stronger than Vegetto.

Not just bad execution, but bad writing in making Kefla insanely strong for no freaking reason

[JazzMazz]

The anime did a poor job of showing how powerful SSB Vegito was, but the Manga did a much better job. SSB Vegito has to be more powerful than SSJ2 Kefla. Especially when you consider how powerful the individual fighters are who make up the fusion. A SSJ2 and LSSJ vs two SSB's. This is also without Vegito using MSSB. I'm not even sure his fusion could hold up for a couple minutes in that form and UI or SSBEvolution is out of the question. Instant defuse.

This. Bad execution is what makes seem Kefla stronger than Vegetto.

Not just bad execution, but bad writing in making Kefla insanely strong for no freaking reason

How does SS2 Kefla seem stronger than Blue Vegetto?

I mean, she is stronger than Goku Blue(with Kaio-ken) as a regular Super Saiyan, but there is really nothing to suggest that she is stronger than Vegetto(she is strong, but people like Zamasu and Vegetto are heads and toes above them, more in the league of someone like UI(even Omen) Goku, than Kefla).