Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Marlowe89]

It's so long off its not worth thinking too much about...but when the new movie comes out, would we need a new strength discussion thread for that movie or would we just use this or maybe rename it or something?

I remember there was a thread like this for the Resurrection F movie. That was what led me to make this.

Considering that the new movie in question is specifically labeled as a "Dragon Ball Super" film, I personally don't see any point in making a new thread. The title of the topic implies that every strength-related discussion under the Super brand would belong here anyway.

[brett wheeler]

so I watched every battle UI goku has competed in, and every battle ssbe vegeta competed in and I think I havea good list for them and there opponent.

beerus=10
jiren( first appearance monstrously suppressed )=3
goku ( base-ssbkk*20 )=0-0.2
U7 spirit bomb=1.5
goku UI ( omen first appearance )=3
jiren ( suppressed to defeat UI omen )=4
goku UI ( omen vs kefla )=4.5
kefla ssj2=3
kefla ssj2 rage=4
jiren ( hint of true power )=7
vegeta SSBE=5
toppo ( hakiashin mode )=6
vegeta SSBE ( pride boost )=6.5
vegeta SSBE ( final explosion )=8
toppo ( final hakia )=7.5
vegeta SSBE ( tired after pride boost )=5.5
jiren ( vs rest of U7)=8.5
goku UI ( omen power up )=7.5
goku UI ( omen learning attack patterns )=8.5
goku UI ( mastered )=11
JIren ( FP depends on how 130 goes )=11/11.5
whis ( for the hell of it )=20

I think this is fair, if not give youre thoughts on who goes where.

[Sora Saiyan]

I find it really strange that people are placing Jiren equal to MUI Goku when it comes to raw power. MUI Goku has a hax ability of counter attacking and dodging, so if Jiren hangs with him he’s stronger plain and simple. Jiren is just an animal when it comes to raw power, and if MUI is gonna be equal to an opponent I can’t see how that opponent keeps up.

[brett wheeler]

so new spoilers completely verify goku MUI is still weaker than jiren, by how much well its said to come up slightly short so not much, let the debate on weather jiren is to op begin ( I'm on the side of he is but I really like him as well so I dont care lol).

[SuperNingenGod]

so I watched every battle UI goku has competed in, and every battle ssbe vegeta competed in and I think I havea good list for them and there opponent.

beerus=10
jiren( first appearance monstrously suppressed )=3
goku ( base-ssbkk*20 )=0-0.2
U7 spirit bomb=1.5
goku UI ( omen first appearance )=3
jiren ( suppressed to defeat UI omen )=4
goku UI ( omen vs kefla )=4.5
kefla ssj2=3
kefla ssj2 rage=4
jiren ( hint of true power )=7
vegeta SSBE=5
toppo ( hakiashin mode )=6
vegeta SSBE ( pride boost )=6.5
vegeta SSBE ( final explosion )=8
toppo ( final hakia )=7.5
vegeta SSBE ( tired after pride boost )=5.5
jiren ( vs rest of U7)=8.5
goku UI ( omen power up )=7.5
goku UI ( omen learning attack patterns )=8.5
goku UI ( mastered )=11
JIren ( FP depends on how 130 goes )=11/11.5
whis ( for the hell of it )=20

I think this is fair, if not give youre thoughts on who goes where.

How in the world is Goku SSBKKx20 only 0.2 when he hangs equally with Vegeta SSBE yet the latter is 6.5? Otherwise a good list. SSBKKx20 is at least 6.5.

[Nevaeh]

so new spoilers completely verify goku MUI is still weaker than jiren, by how much well its said to come up slightly short so not much, let the debate on weather jiren is to op begin ( I'm on the side of he is but I really like him as well so I dont care lol).

I would agree but I don't think they'll do Goku and his fans that dirty. Especially after all the hype. They're probably gonna be equals but Goku loses via running out of juice

[SayianBeyondGod]

To those whom think this shonen jump magazine is indicating MUI Goku surpassed Beerus, then you probably wrong or at least need to take this magazine with a grain of salt. So far even all of the shoden jump magazine scans, don't directly or clearly imply Goku surpassed Beerus, with the statements usually being unclear. So with the given information you can't objectively claim Goku has surpassed Beerus. Here's what a trusted translator said about the context of the scan(the one linked):

Found the relevant passage, no specific mention of might or power, just the generic 超えた which means surpass as you probably guessed. As the guy on Twitter said, Beerus basically isn't sure. The passage is kind of a short summary and the thing goes roughly "Bla Bla Goku's new power was enough to make even Beerus go [ボクを超えたのでは... / Didn't he surpass me... ?]".

I'm assuming ボクを超えたのでは... is the usual cut-off to not bother saying the full "ボクを超えたのではないか？" or something along those lines. So just from this it sounds like it's a line he'd say to himself, wondering if Goku hasn't actually surpassed him.

It's not a clear statement of him admitting to be inferior in any case, more like now he's unsure of how a fight with Goku would go.

[wolflonnie]

Still, same ballpark. Way better than having no idea how the two compare.

[brett wheeler]

so I watched every battle UI goku has competed in, and every battle ssbe vegeta competed in and I think I havea good list for them and there opponent.

beerus=10
jiren( first appearance monstrously suppressed )=3
goku ( base-ssbkk*20 )=0-0.2
U7 spirit bomb=1.5
goku UI ( omen first appearance )=3
jiren ( suppressed to defeat UI omen )=4
goku UI ( omen vs kefla )=4.5
kefla ssj2=3
kefla ssj2 rage=4
jiren ( hint of true power )=7
vegeta SSBE=5
toppo ( hakiashin mode )=6
vegeta SSBE ( pride boost )=6.5
vegeta SSBE ( final explosion )=8
toppo ( final hakia )=7.5
vegeta SSBE ( tired after pride boost )=5.5
jiren ( vs rest of U7)=8.5
goku UI ( omen power up )=7.5
goku UI ( omen learning attack patterns )=8.5
goku UI ( mastered )=11
JIren ( FP depends on how 130 goes )=11/11.5
whis ( for the hell of it )=20

I think this is fair, if not give youre thoughts on who goes where.

How in the world is Goku SSBKKx20 only 0.2 when he hangs equally with Vegeta SSBE yet the latter is 6.5? Otherwise a good list. SSBKKx20 is at least 6.5.

initial ssbkk*20 before he activated UI omen, it was said goku was getting stronger each time he used UI omen, so later probably at the beginning no I just didnt include it for simplicity sake ( same reason I didnt include vegeta at all other than SSBE ), also the 6.5 was after his power boost ssbkk*20 probably is a 4 when he battled along side vegeta.

[brett wheeler]

so new spoilers completely verify goku MUI is still weaker than jiren, by how much well its said to come up slightly short so not much, let the debate on weather jiren is to op begin ( I'm on the side of he is but I really like him as well so I dont care lol).

I would agree but I don't think they'll do Goku and his fans that dirty. Especially after all the hype. They're probably gonna be equals but Goku loses via running out of juice

well it isnt to bad dirty, I mean goku has dodge hax and all plus he is right there with jiren just under him, I say he is worth lik 97% of jiren, bare minimum I see goku MUI can be compared to jiren is 95%, add that with the dodge ability you got a close fight.

[ekrolo2]

Since Base Vegetto is above an SS3 (let's assume that means Goku SS3) as stated in guidebooks and his Blue form is possibly stronger than Beerus, does that mean Goku has gotten a couple hundred times stronger by the time he masters UI?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Since Base Vegetto is above an SS3 (let's assume that means Goku SS3) as stated in guidebooks and his Blue form is possibly stronger than Beerus, does that mean Goku has gotten a couple hundred times stronger by the time he masters UI?

Personally speaking, in terms of actual "power level" strength? No, I don't think so.

In terms of his ability to beat opponents that much stronger than him, "combat strength"? Yes.

[ankokudaishogun]

Since Base Vegetto is above an SS3 (let's assume that means Goku SS3) as stated in guidebooks and his Blue form is possibly stronger than Beerus, does that mean Goku has gotten a couple hundred times stronger by the time he masters UI?

Personally speaking, in terms of actual "power level" strength? No, I don't think so.

In terms of his ability to beat opponents that much stronger than him, "combat strength"? Yes.

Might be a matter of "efficiency".


Also: comes out 114 Controlled Kale is Super Saiyan 2 according to Dokkan Battle.

[Helios518]

I'm really confused on the new info on Kale's green SSJ being SSJ2 and how it relates to Kafla.

If this both of these SSJ2 are supposedly the same
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Does that mean these Kafla's SSJ is the supposed to be the same SSJ as this one?
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Also would SSJ scale now be like this "SSJ < Kale's SSJ < SSJ2 < SSJ3 < Kale's SSJ2"? If so then Kale's SSJ2 is much higher than 2x her SSJ1.

[ekrolo2]

Since Base Vegetto is above an SS3 (let's assume that means Goku SS3) as stated in guidebooks and his Blue form is possibly stronger than Beerus, does that mean Goku has gotten a couple hundred times stronger by the time he masters UI?

Personally speaking, in terms of actual "power level" strength? No, I don't think so.

In terms of his ability to beat opponents that much stronger than him, "combat strength"? Yes.

So you don't think Goku's actually powered up but his "stats" like agility and punching power have? I infered to UI giving him bigger everything except attack strength until he mastered it just now.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Since Base Vegetto is above an SS3 (let's assume that means Goku SS3) as stated in guidebooks and his Blue form is possibly stronger than Beerus, does that mean Goku has gotten a couple hundred times stronger by the time he masters UI?

Personally speaking, in terms of actual "power level" strength? No, I don't think so.

In terms of his ability to beat opponents that much stronger than him, "combat strength"? Yes.

So you don't think Goku's actually powered up but his "stats" like agility and punching power have? I infered to UI giving him bigger everything except attack strength until he mastered it just now.

No, I don't.

I prefer the interpretation that the Ultra Instinct is a means of maximizing martial arts potential to take full advantage of the way combat works in the series. Repeated mention is given to the weight of one's blows, the manner in which one moves, and how well one can land solid hits that aren't blocked or braced for.

Taking a hit you aren't ready to defend against has become a much more severe mistake in the current combat paradigm of the series, and being able to avoid such strikes is a much more valuable skill than simply being strong enough that you could potentially "tank" the attack. The way I see it, the Ultra Instinct is a means by which to take full advantage of this; the mastered version of this power essentially enables one to constantly evade powerful strikes and hit with precise, powerful strikes with great weight behind them in order to get past a fighter's Ki defenses.

At least, that's how I personally see it. I'm well aware that you and many others don't see it that way, and we'll never truly agree unless the series' creators outright tell us exactly what the deal is.

[Helios518]

Since Base Vegetto is above an SS3 (let's assume that means Goku SS3) as stated in guidebooks and his Blue form is possibly stronger than Beerus, does that mean Goku has gotten a couple hundred times stronger by the time he masters UI?

Personally speaking, in terms of actual "power level" strength? No, I don't think so.

In terms of his ability to beat opponents that much stronger than him, "combat strength"? Yes.

So you don't think Goku's actually powered up but his "stats" like agility and punching power have? I infered to UI giving him bigger everything except attack strength until he mastered it just now.

If Omen didn't give Goku an attack strength boost, then he wouldn't be able to even make Kafla or Geran even flinch.

[ekrolo2]

Personally speaking, in terms of actual "power level" strength? No, I don't think so.

In terms of his ability to beat opponents that much stronger than him, "combat strength"? Yes.

So you don't think Goku's actually powered up but his "stats" like agility and punching power have? I infered to UI giving him bigger everything except attack strength until he mastered it just now.

If Omen didn't give Goku an attack strength boost, then he wouldn't be able to even make Kafla or Geran even flinch.

I meant as much of one, not that he didn't get a boost at all. Like say, his speed was uped by 100 times but his punching power by 20-30.

[Miracles]

To those whom think this shonen jump magazine is indicating MUI Goku surpassed Beerus, then you probably wrong or at least need to take this magazine with a grain of salt. So far even all of the shoden jump magazine scans, don't directly or clearly imply Goku surpassed Beerus, with the statements usually being unclear. So with the given information you can't objectively claim Goku has surpassed Beerus. Here's what a trusted translator said about the context of the scan(the one linked):

Found the relevant passage, no specific mention of might or power, just the generic 超えた which means surpass as you probably guessed. As the guy on Twitter said, Beerus basically isn't sure. The passage is kind of a short summary and the thing goes roughly "Bla Bla Goku's new power was enough to make even Beerus go [ボクを超えたのでは... / Didn't he surpass me... ?]".

I'm assuming ボクを超えたのでは... is the usual cut-off to not bother saying the full "ボクを超えたのではないか？" or something along those lines. So just from this it sounds like it's a line he'd say to himself, wondering if Goku hasn't actually surpassed him.

It's not a clear statement of him admitting to be inferior in any case, more like now he's unsure of how a fight with Goku would go.

So it's pretty much the same trans just different wording. Beerus simply questions UI in both.

[Marlowe89]

Also: comes out 114 Controlled Kale is Super Saiyan 2 according to Dokkan Battle.

I'm really confused on the new info on Kale's green SSJ being SSJ2

That's... actually really stupid. Could they seriously not mention that in the show? Caulifla and Cabba were both clearly stated to have obtained Super Saiyan 2, yet most people would have just assumed that Kale learned to control the form she already had -- especially given the dialogue, which didn't even hint at her achieving the same form.

I'd rather chalk that up to Dokkan Battle not knowing what to call her controlled state.