Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Well since we are posting tier list:

[spoiler]Infinite Tier

Zeno|Future Zeno
Infinite Zamasu

Beyond Angel Tier

Grand Priest

Angel Tier

Vados
Whis
Angels
Zeno's Attendants

God of Destruction Tier

UI Goku
Jiren
Quitela
Beerus|Vegetto Blue
Belmod
SSA Future Trunks [Genkidama Sword]
Champa
Merged Zamasu [Corrupted]
Gods of Destruction
UIO Goku
BSSB Vegeta
Toppo [God of Destruction]
SS2 Kefla
SS Kefla

Beyond Blue Tier

SSB Goku [Kaioken x20]
SSB Goku [Kaioken x10]
Merged Zamasu [Halo]
Merged Zamasu
Anilaza
SSB Goku [Kaioken]

Blue Tier

SSB Goku|Golden Freeza|SSR Goku Black
SSB Vegeta
SSA Future Trunks|Toppo
Ultimate Gohan
Hit
17
Koichiarator
Pirina
Saonel
SSB Commeson Vegeta

God Tier

Dyspo [Super Light Speed mode]
SSG Goku/Goku Black
Vegetto
Kefla
Kale [Mastered SS Bersek]

SS3 Tier

SS3 Goku
Kale [SS Bersek]
Obuni
Kale [Controlled SS Bersek]

SS2 Tier

Piccolo
SS2 Goku
SS2 Vegeta
SS2 Caulifla
SS2 Future Trunks
SS2 Gohan
SS2 Cabba
Zamasu|Future Zamasu
Rubalt

SS Tier

Maji Kayo
Monna
Damon
SS Goku
SS Vegeta
SS Caulifla
SS Future Trunks
SS Gohan
SS Cabba
Katopesla [Ultimate mode]
Frost
Auta Magetta
Kahseral
Kunshi

Base Tier

Gamisaras
Narirama
Goku
Vegeta
Caulifla
Future Trunks
Gohan
Freeza
Kale
Dyspo
Cabba
Good Boo [Slim form]
18
Ribrianne
Bollarator
Koitsukai
Panchia
Evil Boo [Gohan]
Commeson Vegeta
Bergamo
Su Roas
Sanka KU
Jimeze
SS3 Gotenks
Napapa
Methiop
Good Boo|Evil Boo
Kettol
Cocotte
Viara
Tupper
Lavender
Zoiray
Basil
Nink
Hop
Hyssop
Comfrey
Chappil
Katopesla
Vuon
Murichim
Nigrisshi
Paparoni
Zirloin
Zarbuto
Rabanra
Cell
Botamo
Ginyu [Tagoma]

Below Base Tier

Ganos
Majora
Shosa
Hermila
Dercori
Comfrey
Freeza [Namek]
The Preecho
Kuririn
Roshi [Max Power]
Tenshinhan
Jium
Shisami
Lilibeu
Jirasen
Roshi
Doctor Rotta
Caway
Prum
Oregano
Roselle
Sorrel
Jilcol
Murisam
Shantza[/spoiler]

Of course not final since I change my mind often and there's also the chance new info comes to light in guides, etc.

[TheDipDap1234]

I do not think 18 is on the same level as Piccolo.

In fact, while Piccolo had been training all this time and overcame Gohan SSJ2 easily, 18 did nothing, only fought with Kuririn before the tournament.

Tien has also been training non-stop yet he's arguably weaker than Krillin and probably even weaker Roshi too, both of whom stopped training after awhile.

[Marlowe89]

As my own tier list reflects, I'm actually of the opinion that Vegeta's SSBE parallels Goku's imperfect UI "Omen/Sign" in strength, at least prior to Goku learning how to properly attack in that state and then transitioning over to the real UI. Not only does the ending theme portray those two together, but Jiren specifically noted how impressive Vegeta's power was in that form and even implied that it was indeed supposed to be stronger than Toppo in his God of Destruction Mode.

Obviously, UIO Goku would easily take SSBE Vegeta in a fight thanks to the former's evasiveness, but the idea that they're more or less equal in raw attack power may not be out of the question.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Without UI, goku and vegeta are basically even with SSBE and Kaioken x20

[Michsi]

I do not think 18 is on the same level as Piccolo.

In fact, while Piccolo had been training all this time and overcame Gohan SSJ2 easily, 18 did nothing, only fought with Kuririn before the tournament.

Tien has also been training non-stop yet he's arguably weaker than Krillin and probably even weaker Roshi too, both of whom stopped training after awhile.

Didn't they reveal that Roshi had been training in secret for a while? Goku himself states that. If anything, he might've been training way more than Tien, who probably was more busy with his school and everything.

[Saturnine]

An easy way to reconcile Vegeta and Goku being equals without Ultra Instinct is to say that Vegeta only "surpassed" Hakaishin Toppo's FULL power with his Final Explosion, and that in terms of "regular power", ESSB Vegeta is still equal to SSB/KKx20 Goku.

Except that he didn't. He was seen thrashing Toppo around, and even punching straight through his Hakai.

Well I guess in that case we really d have to acknowledge that Vegeta > Goku, bar UI. I expect Goku to quickly catch up though.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

An easy way to reconcile Vegeta and Goku being equals without Ultra Instinct is to say that Vegeta only "surpassed" Hakaishin Toppo's FULL power with his Final Explosion, and that in terms of "regular power", ESSB Vegeta is still equal to SSB/KKx20 Goku.

Except that he didn't. He was seen thrashing Toppo around, and even punching straight through his Hakai.

Well I guess in that case we really d have to acknowledge that Vegeta > Goku, bar UI. I expect Goku to quickly catch up though.

That can also be neatly explained by Vegeta gaining strengthened resolve and adrenaline, allowing him to focus his power and land heavy and fast blows. As we all know, in the Tournament of Power, landing solid hits that aren't guarded against or braced for are the most effective means of taking down an opponent.

[Kenneth La Torre]

vegeta and goku are even with ssbe and kk. Theres bo reason to assume anyone is superior right now because fue to lack of knowledge. Hakaishin toppo is clearly shit compared to actual hakaishins (which is still strong to nearly any mortal out there).

[Helios518]

Well, here's my convoluted tier list. Not going to lie, I'm still iffy on Kale and Kafla's placement.
[spoiler]Above All
Zen’ō

Angel tier
Zen’ō's attendants
Daishinkan
Whis/Vados

God of Destruction tier
UI Goku/Geran (Limits Broken)
Geran
Vermoud
Beerus/Champa
UI”O” Goku (EP129)

Higher God tier
SSJ2 Kafla (Final Weapon)
UI”O” Goku (EP116)
UI”O” Goku (EP110)
SSJB Vegetto
LoJ Merged Zamasu/GoD Toppo/SSJ2 Kafla
Sword of Light Trunks/SSJ Kafla (Right before SSJ2)
Weakened LoJ Merged Zamasu/SSJBKKx20 Goku (USArc)/SSJBE Vegeta(USArc)
SSJBKKx10 Goku (USArc)
Aniraza

Middle God tier
SSJBKK Goku (USArc)/Toppo
Merged Zamasu/Kociarator
SEHSM Dyspo
SSJB Goku (USArc)/Golden Freeza (USArc)/Hit (USArc)
Dyspo/#17 (USArc)/Ultimate Gohan (Post Training)/SSJ Kafla (Fight w/Blue)
SSJB Goku (EP71/2)/Hit (EP71/2)
SSJBKKx10 Goku (6v7 Arc)/Hit (End of 6v7 Arc)

Lower God tier
SSJBKK Goku (FTArc)
SSJRosé Black (Scythe)
SSJB Vegeta(FTArc) (Post-RoSaT)
SSJRosé Black (Scimitar)/SSJG Goku (USArc)
SSJBKK Goku (6v7 Arc)
SSJRage Future Trunks/Improved Hit (6v7 Arc)
SSJB Goku (FTArc)/SSJRosé Black (1st encounter)
Golden Freeza/SSJB Goku (6v7 Arc)/Hit (6v7 Arc)
SSJB Goku (RoF)
SSJG Goku

Higher Mortal tier
Base Kafla/Base Vegetto (FTArc)
SSJ2 Kale
SSJBerserk Kale
SSJ3 Goku (USArc)/Ribrianne/Obuni
Base Black (vs SSJ2 Goku)/SSJ3 Goku (FTArc)
SSJ2 Goku (USArc)
SSJ2 Caulifla
Bergamo (Powered up from SSJ)/SSJ Kale
SSJ Goku (USArc)/SSJ2 Goku (FTArc)/SSJ2 Future Trunks/Zamasu
SSJ Caulifla
SSJ Goku (FTArc)
SSJ Goku (6v7 Arc)
SSJ Goku (RoF)
SSJ2 Rageta/SSJ Vegetto (Boo Arc)
SSJ Cabba (6v7 Arc)
True form Frost (6v7 Arc)

Middle Mortal tier
Bergamo (Powered up from base)
Base Goku (USArc)/Bergamo
Base Goku (FTArc)
Ultimate Gohan/Skinny Boo/Base Goku (6v7 Arc)
Super Boo/Base Goku (RoF)/Base Vegetto (Boo Arc)
Base Cabba (6v7 Arc)

Lower Mortal tier
Piccolo (USArc)/SSJ2 Gohan (USArc) (Post-training)
Ginyu Tagoma/SSJ Gohan (USArc) (Post-training)
SSJ3 Goku (Boo)/SSJ Gotenks (Boo)/SSJ2 Gohan (USArc) (Pre-training)
Tagoma/SSJ Gohan (USArc) (Pre-training)
SSJ Gohan (Poisoned)
Fat Boo/Lavenda/Basil (Drugs)
Basil
SSJ Gohan (RoF)
Piccolo (RoF)[/spoiler]

[Bullza]

I'll need to rewatching the whole series, with the latter information we eventually got it might be a bit easier to figure out now but at the moment this is what I would go with.

Zen-Oh | Future Zen-Oh

Grand Priest
Whis | Vados | Angels

Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku
Jiren (Hidden Power)

Ultra Instinct Omen Goku | Jiren
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Beerus
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta
God of Destruction Toppo | God's of Destruction

Super Saiyan 2 Kefla
Super Saiyan Kefla
Sword of Hope Trunks
Merged Zamasu (Corrupted)

Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x20
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x10
Aniraza
Dyspo (Maximum Light Speed Mode)
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x2

Merged Zamasu
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta | Golden Frieza | Toppo
Super Saiyan Rose Black
Super Saiyan Rage Trunks

Ultimate Gohan | Android 17
Pirina | Saonel
Koichiarator
Hit
Dyspo
Super Saiyan God Goku

Base Black
Super Saiyan Berserk Kale
Super Saiyan 3 Goku

Piccolo
Super Saiyan 2 Goku | Vegeta | Gohan
Super Saiyan 2 Cabba | Caulifla
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks
Zamasu

Monna
Final Form Frieza
Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta | Gohan
Super Saiyan Cabba | Caulifla
Super Saiyan Future Trunks
Magetta
Katopesla
Final Form Frost

Jimeze
Butterfly Ribrianne
Base Goku | Vegeta | Gohan
Bergamo
Base Cabba | Caulifla
Base Future Trunks

Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Good Buu
Basil (Drugged)
Basil | Lavender
Android 18
Ribrianne
Tagoma

Krillin
Tien
Master Roshi
Jaco

That mostly works for me I suppose.

[Freezerbaby]

One thing that I make of this episode:

- Freeza definitely can sense ki now, as he is confident he can defeat Jiren and states that Jiren´strenght is way lower than he showed earlier on.
-From the very beginning of this tournament, freeza is only afraid of Jiren, even after watching blue vegeta vs base toppo, he watched dyspo vs hit/goku too as he tells dyspo some goku´s lines about his attacks being too straigthforward.
-I take it that he is sure about defeating Hit, Base Toppo or Dyspo.
- Jiren, god toppo, kefla and anilaza seem to be the only ones able to defeat golden freeza.
- Jiren states that goku and hit are the ones he is needed for, but u11 clearly couldn´t gauge golden freeza´strenght, as they probably only watched u6vsu7 tournament via godtube.
-So to me Golden freeza > Hit/Dyspo/Base Toppo.

Final Form Freeza hasn´t changed for me, he stands somewhere around ssj3 and ssg.

[ZombieVito]

As my own tier list reflects, I'm actually of the opinion that Vegeta's SSBE parallels Goku's imperfect UI "Omen/Sign" in strength, at least prior to Goku learning how to properly attack in that state and then transitioning over to the real UI. Not only does the ending theme portray those two together, but Jiren specifically noted how impressive Vegeta's power was in that form and even implied that it was indeed supposed to be stronger than Toppo in his God of Destruction Mode.

Obviously, UIO Goku would easily take SSBE Vegeta in a fight thanks to the former's evasiveness, but the idea that they're more or less equal in raw attack power may not be out of the question.

I agree with this. he also had the same eyes UI Omen Goku had.

Since Goku lost UI for the time being, Vegeta is the strongest mortal in U7.

I do wonder if Vegeta's "power up" against Toppo was permanent or not.

[Kaiosama]

As my own tier list reflects, I'm actually of the opinion that Vegeta's SSBE parallels Goku's imperfect UI "Omen/Sign" in strength, at least prior to Goku learning how to properly attack in that state and then transitioning over to the real UI. Not only does the ending theme portray those two together, but Jiren specifically noted how impressive Vegeta's power was in that form and even implied that it was indeed supposed to be stronger than Toppo in his God of Destruction Mode.

Obviously, UIO Goku would easily take SSBE Vegeta in a fight thanks to the former's evasiveness, but the idea that they're more or less equal in raw attack power may not be out of the question.

I agree with this. he also had the same eyes UI Omen Goku had.

Since Goku lost UI for the time being, Vegeta is the strongest mortal in U7.

I do wonder if Vegeta's "power up" against Toppo was permanent or not.

For now Vegeta is the strongest if he can access his power at will. If Goku manages to push Kaioken further, he will overtake Vegeta again. Kami help him if he manages to access UI again. Vegeta would get 1 shot easily.

[Raphael_Z]

I have the feeling that Vegeta's Royal Blue form STARTED as equal to SSBKK Goku BUT during the course of his battle with Toppo he got stronger ending up as roughly equal to UI Omen Goku (I like to think that UI Omen is better than Royal Blue in terms of speed but Royal Blue is better in terms of raw power).

I really doubt that SSBKK Goku would have been able to defeat God of Destruction Toppo.

Many of U7's fighters got power ups DURING the tournament too. For example, I don't think that the A18 that struggled against the fodder that Krilin help her take out was on the same level as the A18 that took out Super Ribrianne. Ultimate Gohan, Frieza and A17 also seemed to get new power boosts in the second half of the tournament.

Vegeta and Goku weren't the only ones to gain more power even though they were the only ones to get new visual transformation.

[Helios518]

Much like a few other people, I'm pretty sure that Vegeta's power against Toppo was just a temporary power up much like his previous rage/pride boosts. His normal SSJBE power is equal to SSJBKKx20.

[Koitsukai]

Nobody knows how does UI work actually, but it seems to get the best out of the user's body, and in the TOP it was always used by a really exhausted Goku, as close as possible to a KO, so if Goku would trigger it again, being well rested and in top form 100%, he would be waaay stronger that what he showed in the TOP, right?

[Helios518]

Nobody knows how does UI work actually, but it seems to get the best out of the user's body, and in the TOP it was always used by a really exhausted Goku, as close as possible to a KO, so if Goku would trigger it again, being well rested and in top form 100%, he would be waaay stronger that what he showed in the TOP, right?

I doubt this. There seems to be a thing in DB, that tapping into new form despite being exhausted gives brings back energy. Such as when Goku on Namek, should be a lot weaker than normal, but most accept that his SSJ wasn't weaker because he was just tired.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Much like a few other people, I'm pretty sure that Vegeta's power against Toppo was just a temporary power up much like his previous rage/pride boosts. His normal SSJBE power is equal to SSJBKKx20.

It was not temporary. If it was, then Vegeta would still be weaker than Toppo after EP 126, but in EP 127, Jiren confirms that Vegeta is stronger when he says he understood why he was able to defeat Toppo

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Bullza]

So how many God's of Destruction could Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku beat at the same time now? All of them? All of them minus Beerus? A few? One?

Seeing as Beerus took out a few and was holding his own against several of them at once with his imperfect Ultra Instinct....you'd think Goku could probably take them all on and do quite well.

Especially considering that Full Power Jiren would be stronger than a God of Destruction by a fair amount and he was child's play compared to Goku at that point.

[Kenneth La Torre]

When i hear people say “beerus took out a couple gods of destructions out”, i go like “which reality are you from?”. I always wonder if people really read the last chapter of the hakaishin royale. He was impressive no doubt, but so were the ither gods eith their unique abilities. I also wonder why the hell do people still have beerus on a Freaking pedestal.

When the universal survival arc started, they out right introduced dozens of characters stronger than beerus, 10 who are on his level, and jiren, who can kick his hakaishins ass.

As soon as ssb vegito was introduced, i knew the bar for goku was going to be moved up from beerus, to some higher power. The next goal for goku is the angels, and heck, even jiren, who is stronger than a god of destruction, has set his goals to someone beyond a hakaishin as well (Goku).