"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

I think you may need to re-read chapter 36, because Piccolo is fighting a u10 member, where he is then ambushed by two fighters at once. Android 17 then steps in to save Piccolo. Also, Piccolo was going to help 17 against Botamo, but the fight ended before he could do anything. Finally, 17, Piccolo, and Gohan were about to face off against the 3 remaining members of u10 before u4 eliminated 3 of the fighters participating and knocked one across the ring.

I think it's pretty disingenuous to call these fights a series of 1v1s rather than Gohan, 17, and Piccolo vs u10. I have no idea how you can act like Piccolo vs Jirasen is anywhere near the same as Goku vs Jiren. Also, would it not get boring if every single elimination was a chaotic 1 panel attack?

Maybe you're the one who needs to reread it. Piccolo was fighting Jirasen and knocks him out before trying to intervene in the fight between #17 and Botamo. But #17 defeats Botamo before Piccolo gets there. Then, when #17 and Piccolo are talking, they get attacked by Napapa and Jium. #17 fights Jium, Gohan fights Mechiop and Piccolo fights Napapa. These are all isolated fights, the only point of connection between them is the sneak-attack at the beginning and Gohan's warning. So, yes, all of these qualify as 1v1s; there is barely any coordination between the characters outside of the sneak-attack to say these fights are a group battle, they're just a series of 1v1s.

I didn't act like Piccolo vs Jirasen was the same as Goku vs Jiren, I'm not sure what you're talking about. I mentioned the U10 in order to bring up how inorganic the match-ups seem, since the transition from opponent to opponent is always a neat, programmed transition from a fighter of a universe to the next fighter of that same universe. The match-ups stopped feeling random since you're just going through a list of fighters. The systematic elimination of U9 and U10 fighters proves how unnatural the storytelling is. I brought up Goku vs Jiren to prove how thoughtless the match-ups are, since Goku was no match for Jiren last chapter, and yet here he is still fighting him in #36 instead of being eliminated as he should have been; Toyotaro could have easily found a better way to split the two up after Hit's elimination rather than implying that the two fought for an extended period of time following it.

Not to mention that the tournament should get less chaotic as more people are eliminated.

So you agree it stopped being chaotic? Good, because that was what I was arguing.

If you are really saying that Toyotarou transitioned from spontaneous eliminations to 1 page 1v1s, then that's laughable. Also, are you implying that if every part of Dragon Ball isn't the exact same quality as the best of the franchise, then it's garbage. That's pretty extreme.

I'm not really sure why what I'm saying is so difficult to understand.

The Cell arc is a step-down from the Freeza arc. This doesn't mean that I can't enjoy the Cell arc. It means, however, that I hope stories following it are as good as the Freeza arc, not the Cell arc. This is what I'm saying, in a general sense: you can enjoy Super, but if you acknowledge it as inferior to the original series, then I'm not sure why you're settling when you can have better.

In a more specific and personal sense, what I'm saying is that Super is absolute garbage. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'm saying that an arc is automatically trash if it isn't as good as DB's peak. I'm saying that Super isn't as good as DB's peak and that it's not even competently written, to boot.

[Miracles]

One has to wipe out that single mentality on this forum that who ever criticizes the manga is always a biased anime fan and vice-versa.

Because yes, I also disliked the anime homages, thanks.

I didn't ever think you were a biased anime fan. It's just a habit of mine to keep the scales balanced.

Yeap , it is a form .... and it’s gonna need some foreshadowing, it’s clear that Goku knows that he needs that for the win , so he might explain how to get there , rage has not sense , just calm I guess.

It's going to be interesting to see if Toyotaro goes the anime route with Goku fighting for his life by resisting the Spirit bomb resulting in going beyond his limits or a different route.

[Bergamo]

I think you may need to re-read chapter 36, because Piccolo is fighting a u10 member, where he is then ambushed by two fighters at once. Android 17 then steps in to save Piccolo. Also, Piccolo was going to help 17 against Botamo, but the fight ended before he could do anything. Finally, 17, Piccolo, and Gohan were about to face off against the 3 remaining members of u10 before u4 eliminated 3 of the fighters participating and knocked one across the ring.

I think it's pretty disingenuous to call these fights a series of 1v1s rather than Gohan, 17, and Piccolo vs u10. I have no idea how you can act like Piccolo vs Jirasen is anywhere near the same as Goku vs Jiren. Also, would it not get boring if every single elimination was a chaotic 1 panel attack?

Maybe you're the one who needs to reread it. Piccolo was fighting Jirasen and knocks him out before trying to intervene in the fight between #17 and Botamo. But #17 defeats Botamo before Piccolo gets there. Then, when #17 and Piccolo are talking, they get attacked by Napapa and Jium. #17 fights Jium, Gohan fights Mechiop and Piccolo fights Napapa. These are all isolated fights, the only point of connection between them is the sneak-attack at the beginning and Gohan's warning. So, yes, all of these qualify as 1v1s; there is barely any coordination between the characters outside of the sneak-attack to say these fights are a group battle, they're just a series of 1v1s.

I didn't act like Piccolo vs Jirasen was the same as Goku vs Jiren, I'm not sure what you're talking about. I mentioned the U10 in order to bring up how inorganic the match-ups seem, since the transition from opponent to opponent is always a neat, programmed transition from a fighter of a universe to the next fighter of that same universe. The match-ups stopped feeling random since you're just going through a list of fighters. The systematic elimination of U9 and U10 fighters proves how unnatural the storytelling is. I brought up Goku vs Jiren to prove how thoughtless the match-ups are, since Goku was no match for Jiren last chapter, and yet here he is still fighting him in #36 instead of being eliminated as he should have been; Toyotaro could have easily found a better way to split the two up after Hit's elimination rather than implying that the two fought for an extended period of time following it.

Not to mention that the tournament should get less chaotic as more people are eliminated.

So you agree it stopped being chaotic? Good, because that was what I was arguing.

If you are really saying that Toyotarou transitioned from spontaneous eliminations to 1 page 1v1s, then that's laughable. Also, are you implying that if every part of Dragon Ball isn't the exact same quality as the best of the franchise, then it's garbage. That's pretty extreme.

I'm not really sure why what I'm saying is so difficult to understand.

The Cell arc is a step-down from the Freeza arc. This doesn't mean that I can't enjoy the Cell arc. It means, however, that I hope stories following it are as good as the Freeza arc, not the Cell arc. This is what I'm saying, in a general sense: you can enjoy Super, but if you acknowledge it as inferior to the original series, then I'm not sure why you're settling when you can have better.

In a more specific and personal sense, what I'm saying is that Super is absolute garbage. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'm saying that an arc is automatically trash if it isn't as good as DB's peak. I'm saying that Super isn't as good as DB's peak and that it's not even competently written, to boot.

I'm done debating with you. You are so arrogant, and it's getting hard trying to have a discussion. You know very well that when I said, "less chaotic," I meant, "less chaotic." A sarcastic, "So you agree," when it is evident that I don't is spiteful.

[prince212]

Yeap , it is a form .... and it’s gonna need some foreshadowing, it’s clear that Goku knows that he needs that for the win , so he might explain how to get there , rage has not sense , just calm I guess.

It's going to be interesting to see if Toyotaro goes the anime route with Goku fighting for his life by resisting the Spirit bomb resulting in going beyond his limits or a different route.

I started to get curious about Toyotarōs route to get into ultra instinct because the first encounter Goku Jiren ended up without the spirit bomb , I think that was forced to the needs of that 2 episodes special, apparently we pass that point here in the manga , so I’m thinking that it’s not gonna happen that way , and I’m really happy if so, there’s a chance to make more understandable and coherent how to achieve that form that wiss was trying to teach since early chapters , supposed to be related with the move without thinking rather than the eat a bomb , be half dead and then you’ll achieve that .

[Doctor.]

I'm done debating with you. You are so arrogant, and it's getting hard trying to have a discussion. You know very well that when I said, "less chaotic," I meant, "less chaotic." A sarcastic, "So you agree," when it is evident that I don't is spiteful.

I think you're just getting upset because you can't stomach seeing me lambaste the manga. I'm not the one who got aggressive first (that was you, per your own admission), nor was I being aggressive to begin with.

[Bergamo]

I'm done debating with you. You are so arrogant, and it's getting hard trying to have a discussion. You know very well that when I said, "less chaotic," I meant, "less chaotic." A sarcastic, "So you agree," when it is evident that I don't is spiteful.

I think you're just getting upset because you can't stomach seeing me lambaste the manga. I'm not the one who got aggressive first (that was you, per your own admission), nor was I being aggressive to begin with.

I'm not upset, I'm just done wasting my time.

[Marlowe89]

Notice the trends here: these are all fights with a low number of characters that play out to completion, with no interruption. #18 gets sneak-attacked by Gamisaras but that was already after her fight had ended and she proved herself to be the winner

Notice how the example in your second sentence immediately contradicts your first. 18 can't be the winner of that match if she didn't actually eliminate anyone in Ribrianne's group. Her fight was quite literally interrupted. The vast majority of the ToP's major battles so far (particularly those that lasted longer than a page or two) have never played out to completion and are as sporadic as they ever were, with characters constantly either getting blindsided or dropping out of fights to switch over to other fights throughout every chapter.

Why is that? The obvious answer is that there are no individual "battles" because there's no inherent distinction between all these conflicts to begin with. The obvious answer is that it's all one big fight, something the manga happens to be much better at demonstrating.

Nobody is asking all the 80 fighters to be treated as individual characters; to say anyone is suggesting that shows a concerning misinterpretation of what people, myself included, are complaining about.

Oh, but that's exactly what people are complaining about. I don't need to dig all that deep in this thread to provide several instances of posters either criticizing the manga for not giving mooks some undeserved screentime or, even worse, not including as much fanservice as the anime contained. It's a silly thing to argue for because in addition to being unnecessary fluff, it also ruins the whole point.

Again, this is an 80-person battle royale with fighters of varying skills and levels of strength. Obviously a lot of these characters are going to get blindsided, fodderized, and thrown into all kinds of hectic situations completely over their heads; along with the other aspects of 35 and 36 that I mentioned previously, this stuff absolutely contributes to the arc's chaotic tone far more effectively than the anime's version ever managed to do. If a significant portion of them weren't forced into the same wipeouts as 18, Piccolo, Hit, etc. then the tournament in general would fail to convey that basic premise.

Whether they have unique designs and names is irrelevant. Their character designs are largely terrible for the most part, and it's definitely not uncommon for manga authors to give nobodies names.

The feeling of a Battle Royale in the manga was missing only in the fight with Jiren, which I believe happened too soon.

That fight happening as soon as it did is exactly why it feels like a proper battle royale. You wouldn't want the best guy in an 8-player Super Smash Bros. match to sit around waiting for everyone but one or two other players to lose, and you wouldn't expect him to target only the less skilled players until then either.

[Exline]

I disagree. Chaper 34 includes a lot of the elements prevalent in Chapter 33. Chapter 35 contributes to that feeling by having Universe 6's strongest fighter (who's also a fairly relevant character in the series) get eliminated particularly early in the tournament. Chapter 36 contributes to that feeling by having two of Universe 7's key players get eliminated off-guard before either of them could have a chance at a fair fight. The anime occasionally includes some of these things as well, but immediately reduces any impact they could have with egregiously hammy """character moments""" that aren't all that substantial or cohesive on their own and actively serve to dillute the pacing and tone of the arc's premise.

That's all fine, but that doesn't negate the fact that the scenario of chapter 33, where you had a dozen characters on-screen at a time, and you could barely follow the flow of action, is no longer present. I have to say that Toyotaro did a good job of conveying the chaotic nature of the Tournament of Power in #33 and #34, but following those two, the flow of the action no longer feels natural. Goku is fighting Toppo and Dyspo in #35, then jumps to fight Jiren alongside Hit; these are two isolated 2v1s that start and finish in such a chaotic setting, with no random fighters from other universes popping in and out, intervening in the fight. #35 is dedicated, pretty much, to the Hit/Goku vs Jiren fight, a fight that goes completely uninterrupted for its entire run, even when Goku is standing around in his base form doing nothing but watching Hit and Jiren duke it out, susceptible to getting attacked from behind. #36 continues the trend: Vegeta vs Toppo/Dyspo (2v1), Piccolo vs Jirasen (1v1), Botamo vs #17 (1v1), Piccolo vs Napapa (1v1), #17 vs Jium (1v1), Gohan vs Methiop (1v1), #18 vs the Kamikaze Fireballs (1v3). Notice the trends here: these are all fights with a low number of characters that play out to completion, with no interruption. #18 gets sneak-attacked by Gamisaras but that was already after her fight had ended and she proved herself to be the winner; there may be some interesting coordination here and there, but by and large these are mostly simple 1v1s. More problematic is the fact that only one universe is focused on at a time: Goku is fighting the Pride Troopers and moves on to Jiren, Gohan/17/Piccolo all take out U10 fighters, #18 only fights U2 members, U4's invisible fighters are the main antagonists of #36. There's no feeling of chance if the transitions between the different fights are so unnatural and inorganic. I also want to point out that Goku v Jiren is still going on in #36 despite the fact that Jiren proved his superiority last chapter. The match-ups are formed around convenience, around what's needed to check the boxes in Toriyama's script. The tournament lost its feeling of chaos long ago, it has mostly devolved into the standard and linear match-ups you'd see in any other arc.

Nobody is asking all the 80 fighters to be treated as individual characters; to say anyone is suggesting that shows a concerning misinterpretation of what people, myself included, are complaining about. These fighters should be used not as canon fodder (because they're not canon fodder, or else they wouldn't have unique designs and names), but as fighters that help complement our own fighters or whoever is being focused on at a particular time. Their abilities, gimmicks, personalities, backstory, design, whatever, should contrast and complement and help further the arc of the U7/6/11 characters. Both the anime and the manga do this to an extent, but not as much as they should, seeing as how they blatantly waste characters left, right and center. You could argue that, this way, match-ups don't feel random as they should in a battle royale, but as I've argued above, they already don't feel random; they feel convenient and programmed.

I really wouldn't say I'm settling for "garbage." I don't see many ways that the Super Manga is worse than, say, the Buu Saga. Just because Super isn't as good as one of the greatest manga of all time, doesn't mean it's bad. I don't expect every story to be a masterpiece.

I don't think it's a crime to expect a sequel to be held to the same standards as the previous series. If you consider Super as good/bad as the Boo arc, then that's fine, but it seems to me like you're implying that the Boo arc was a step-down from the rest of the series, in your eyes. If that's the case, then you still shouldn't compromise just because of a low point in an otherwise superior series.

I had to log in and compliment you for your counterargument. You put this in better words than I have.

You read any books for rhetoric and philosophy? I'm trying to comprehend how quickly you wrote all of this.

I think you may need to re-read chapter 36, because Piccolo is fighting a u10 member, where he is then ambushed by two fighters at once. Android 17 then steps in to save Piccolo. Also, Piccolo was going to help 17 against Botamo, but the fight ended before he could do anything. Finally, 17, Piccolo, and Gohan were about to face off against the 3 remaining members of u10 before u4 eliminated 3 of the fighters participating and knocked one across the ring.

I think it's pretty disingenuous to call these fights a series of 1v1s rather than Gohan, 17, and Piccolo vs u10. I have no idea how you can act like Piccolo vs Jirasen is anywhere near the same as Goku vs Jiren. Also, would it not get boring if every single elimination was a chaotic 1 panel attack?

Maybe you're the one who needs to reread it. Piccolo was fighting Jirasen and knocks him out before trying to intervene in the fight between #17 and Botamo. But #17 defeats Botamo before Piccolo gets there. Then, when #17 and Piccolo are talking, they get attacked by Napapa and Jium. #17 fights Jium, Gohan fights Mechiop and Piccolo fights Napapa. These are all isolated fights, the only point of connection between them is the sneak-attack at the beginning and Gohan's warning. So, yes, all of these qualify as 1v1s; there is barely any coordination between the characters outside of the sneak-attack to say these fights are a group battle, they're just a series of 1v1s.

I didn't act like Piccolo vs Jirasen was the same as Goku vs Jiren, I'm not sure what you're talking about. I mentioned the U10 in order to bring up how inorganic the match-ups seem, since the transition from opponent to opponent is always a neat, programmed transition from a fighter of a universe to the next fighter of that same universe. The match-ups stopped feeling random since you're just going through a list of fighters. The systematic elimination of U9 and U10 fighters proves how unnatural the storytelling is. I brought up Goku vs Jiren to prove how thoughtless the match-ups are, since Goku was no match for Jiren last chapter, and yet here he is still fighting him in #36 instead of being eliminated as he should have been; Toyotaro could have easily found a better way to split the two up after Hit's elimination rather than implying that the two fought for an extended period of time following it.

So do you feel that characters should constantly be defending themselves from warriors attacking from all directions? That fights should be interrupted more often?
Or maybe their should be more cooperation amongst the universes and strategy involved to make it feel more like a Battle Royale?

I'm kind of curious on what you guys believe what criteria falls under a Battle Royal. I don't get that feeling in neither the manga or the anime after the beginning of the tournament.

Both the anime and manga introduce the "chaotic" nature of the Battle Royale, but don't exactly follow it up with a sense of natural progression as more fighters are eliminated.

[Exline]

Nobody is asking all the 80 fighters to be treated as individual characters; to say anyone is suggesting that shows a concerning misinterpretation of what people, myself included, are complaining about.

Oh, but that's exactly what people are complaining about. I don't need to dig all that deep in this thread to provide several instances of posters either criticizing the manga for not giving mooks some undeserved screentime or, even worse, not including as much fanservice as the anime contained. It's a silly thing to argue for because in addition to being unnecessary fluff, it also ruins the whole point.

If you mean me, that is not what I want. These characters should have a purpose rather than just be FODDER. They don't need their own sub plots, they don't need their own backstories, they just need be utilized in a way that supports their eliminator's capabilities, introduced new and unique techniques we've never seen before, or have some sort of characterization to demonstrate the lifestyle of their respective universe.

I've said only 3 things, but many more can be done with 80 brand new characters. It's all about character utilization. That's what you're not understanding every time I bring this up. The anime did well with some of these characters, those who weren't given typical cocky attitudes. Characters like Ribrianne, Rozie, Kakunsa, Toppo, Caulifla, Kale, Obuni, etc. are all characters we recognize for their incredible personalities and their impact on the tournament. Sure they got more screentime than they wanted, but no single character deserves to be off-screened or beaten with relative ease with such simple techniques because, once again, these are the best fighters each Universe has to offer. The tournament would be fucking pointless if everyone but one universe is just nothing but fodder.

The feeling of a Battle Royale in the manga was missing only in the fight with Jiren, which I believe happened too soon.

That fight happening as soon as it did is exactly why it feels like a proper battle royale. You wouldn't want the best guy in an 8-player Super Smash Bros. match to sit around waiting for everyone but one or two other players to lose, and you wouldn't expect him to target only the less skilled players until then either.

I agree with you on this Marlowe. I don't understand why people constantly feel this fight occurred way sooner than it needed to be. It did feel a bit weird for Goku to try and save Hit. However I saw nothing wrong with the placement of this fight.

[emperior]

The feeling of a Battle Royale in the manga was missing only in the fight with Jiren, which I believe happened too soon.

That fight happening as soon as it did is exactly why it feels like a proper battle royale. You wouldn't want the best guy in an 8-player Super Smash Bros. match to sit around waiting for everyone but one or two other players to lose, and you wouldn't expect him to target only the less skilled players until then either.

I understand that this is a battle royale, but it is also following events that have to happen in a certain order. In order to avoid the Goku vs Jiren fight happening too soon the anime team made Jiren cocky and also destroyed the tournament arena. This is still a story so it being a battle royale is no excuse to make the story worse just to fit with the battle royale theme. It’s especially silly because we know for sure it will come down to Goku vs Jiren in the last few minutes, or would you want the main fight to happen in the middle of the tournament just because “it makes sense, it’s a battle royale”? I know you wouldn’t like to see 17 win the whole thing by effortlessly eliminating the remaining weak warriors just because Goku and Freeza eliminated Jiren in the middle of the tournament. That would be lame and anticlimatic. There is a reason why these kind of stories feel scripted, because it is the only way to make them entertaining even if the main events are quite predictable (like the final fight being U7 vs U11, Jiren being the last one of the enemies, U7 winning, the universes being restored).

[Marlowe89]

If you mean me, that is not what I want. These characters should have a purpose rather than just be FODDER.

First of all, I'd like to make it clear that I wasn't trying to make anyone feel called out. That was just an observation about a common argument I see repeated throughout the thread. You have my apologies if you found that comment offensive; didn't mean it to come out that way.

Secondly, I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. The "cannon fodder" element can and does tend to entail a specific purpose in the stories it's used in, often to convey the danger and severity of a threatening situation. That's why I think it works so well for the Tournament of Power in particular -- it's a unique approach to Dragon Ball where the protagonists aren't just thrown into a typical tournament, but forced to contend with the environment itself because of the ways in which its general structure and rules affect everyone involved. It's actually a refreshing take on the franchise, so without all those smaller things that contribute to the sense of a battle royale (like the inclusion of fodder, for example), it winds up feeling like every other tournament in the series. I'd find that boring.

You can tell from the first couple of chapters as well as the Zen Exhibition Match that Toyotaro was conscious of this sort of thing. I don't even necessarily think that the anime was always so bad when judged strictly by its own approach, so I'm not exactly trying to trash-talk it. I just like the manga's approach a lot more, and I think its character utilization is perfectly fine for the story it's trying to tell.

I understand that this is a battle royale, but it is also following events that have to happen in a certain order.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. Hit and Goku's match with Jiren didn't need to be confined to a "certain order" at all, worked perfectly well with the premise of the tournament for reasons I've outlined, and was resolved nicely enough at the end while leaving plenty of room for Goku and Jiren to face off again later on.

And no, it should fit with that theme. The opposite is actually worse from a storytelling perspective because it'd just reduce a lot of the impact behind Hit's elimination and make Jiren look totally out-of-place as an active participant. I understand that Goku vs. Jiren is expected to represent the climax of the arc, but that doesn't mean Jiren shouldn't raise the stakes in the meantime.

[TKA]

People keep thinking the manga is doing the same thing the anime is.

There's a reason the manga literally only showed Jiren's universe, Universe 6 and Universe 7 in the lead up to the tournament. That tells us these are the only characters we should be even paying attention to.

The anime, conversely, chose to show each of the universes preparing, which gives a totally different message to the viewer—everyone will have a part to play. In the episodes of the tournament I saw, that clearly wasn't the case.

The manga treats the fodder like fodder and doesn't try to trick the viewer into becoming invested in said fodder. Stop conflating the two mediums. Divorce the manga from the anime.

[Doctor.]

You read any books for rhetoric and philosophy? I'm trying to comprehend how quickly you wrote all of this.

Well, yes, I read philosophy, but none of it had any direct influence on my line of thought, I think. I was just typing what I've gathered makes a good story after a lot of years watching Dragon Ball and reading other stuff. I appreciate the compliment, though.

So do you feel that characters should constantly be defending themselves from warriors attacking from all directions? That fights should be interrupted more often?
Or maybe their should be more cooperation amongst the universes and strategy involved to make it feel more like a Battle Royale?

I'm kind of curious on what you guys believe what criteria falls under a Battle Royal. I don't get that feeling in neither the manga or the anime after the beginning of the tournament.

Both the anime and manga introduce the "chaotic" nature of the Battle Royale, but don't exactly follow it up with a sense of natural progression as more fighters are eliminated.

Al of it. You should have fights being interrupted by fighters catching other fighters off-guard, you should have more cooperation and strategy between fighters of the same universes and between fighters of different universes in desperate situations, you should have Ki blasts being deflected or dodged have some kind of effect to fights elsewhere in the arena, you should space the fighters out in the arena more so you don't get systematic elimination of universes. This all happens, to an extent, in both the anime and the manga, but it happens so scarcely that they make you remember "oh, that's right, this is a battle royale after all!" when the thought should be "damn, this battle royale is intense!" All of this should happen in junction with each-other until the last stages of the tournament. What contributes to the anime/manga not feeling like a battle royale is the fact that the flow of action is incredibly linear (meaning you go from one fighter to the next fighter of the same universe, almost as if you're just checking boxes on a list) and you just focus on one/two/three characters per episode/chapter; it's rare when you keep jumping from and to different perspectives. If you kept showing various fights happening at once, then you could easily excuse the 1v1 epidemic that has plagued the tournament, but when you narrow your scope down to such few perspectives, it's only natural that this will feel like a regular old tournament rather than the chaotic setting it's supposed to be.

[Exline]

If you mean me, that is not what I want. These characters should have a purpose rather than just be FODDER.

First of all, I'd like to make it clear that I wasn't trying to make anyone feel called out. That was just an observation about a common argument I see repeated throughout the thread. You have my apologies if you found that comment offensive; didn't mean it to come out that way.

I wasn't offended. I didn't mean to imply that I was either. Just wanted to support the argument for proper character usage. I'm not one of the overly sensitive users.

You can tell from the first couple of chapters as well as the Zen Exhibition Match that Toyotaro was conscious of this sort of thing. I don't even necessarily think that the anime was always so bad when judged strictly by its own approach, so I'm not exactly trying to trash-talk it. I just like the manga's approach a lot more, and I think its character utilization is perfectly fine for the story it's trying to tell.

My question for you is what story is being told. Because as I see it now, the manga is no different than the anime when it comes to it's inability to capture the Battle Royale sensation, as well as properly establishing and following up with their subplots. It once again feels like a Fun tournament rather than Universal Survival. Chapter 34 did pretty well with that Survival feeling because of how desperate Bergamo was trying to beg Piccolo to let him live.

And going on about the Zen Exhibiton Match, I think the characters we're utilized well for that battle. Most characters got their time to demonstrate their capabilities like Belmod with his Card tricks (Gambit Rip Off?) and Liquiir firing Ki Blasts from his tails. Helles then interferes with their battle by firing a bow at Liquiir. A team dynamic was nearly established prior when Sidra protected Belmod and other GoDs from Beerus' blast. Not every GoD needed to do something crazy, but nearly all of them did something worthwhile that made the match so much enjoyable. Do you know how boring it would have been if it was so one-sided with Beerus being the clear victor?

The Zen Exhibition Match gave that Battle Royale sensation that I am not finding in the actual Tournament anymore.

And also could you answer my question on what criteria falls under a battle royale that I had wrote to doctor. I'd really like to know what other people believe a Battle Royale truly is because that sensation is always come and go while watching the anime and reading the manga.

[spoiler]

You read any books for rhetoric and philosophy? I'm trying to comprehend how quickly you wrote all of this.

Well, yes, I read philosophy, but none of it had any direct influence on my line of thought, I think. I was just typing what I've gathered makes a good story after a lot of years watching Dragon Ball and reading other stuff. I appreciate the compliment, though.

Ah alright. Just asking because I've really started joining forums to pick up on the ability to generate well-structured and coherent sentences for discussion for both online and in real life.
You, batistabus, Rebel Instinct, and many others have such great diction and sentence structure.[/spoiler]

[Marlowe89]

My question for you is what story is being told. Because as I see it now, the manga is no different than the anime when it comes to it's inability to capture the Battle Royale sensation, as well as properly establishing and following up with their subplots. It once again feels like a Fun tournament rather than Universal Survival. Chapter 34 did pretty well with that Survival feeling because of how desperate Bergamo was trying to beg Piccolo to let him live.

Again, I'd need to see some specific examples of this outlook. As far as I can tell, there hasn't been a single subplot in the manga so far that wasn't thoroughly established and followed through with. I can think of several times the anime hinted at a subplot only to pretend that never happened, but I definitely didn't get the same impression here. As was pointed out a few posts ago, the manga isn't actually trying to spend time developing characters that it doesn't deem important. Universes 6, 7, and 11 are the teams we're supposed to be invested in, which is something that the recruitment period of the arc establishes very clearly.

If you want to know what criteria would fall under a battle royale, I think I've elaborated on that several times in this thread already. Don't really feel like repeating all of it again, to be honest. Doctor. described it reasonably well for the most part, although I obviously disagree that the manga uses a lot of those aspects as scarcely as the anime, which was much more focused on fleshing out characters that frankly didn't need it. That's in stark contrast to the manga, which generally always prioritizes the feeling of the environment over the individuality of minor fighters.

You could argue that this is also reflected in the differences of the actual size of the arena. In the manga, it's cramped and claustrophobic; in the anime, it's overwhelmingly large and gauntlet-friendly.

And going on about the Zen Exhibiton Match, I think the characters we're utilized well for that battle. Most characters got their time to demonstrate their capabilities like Belmod with his Card tricks (Gambit Rip Off?) and Liquiir firing Ki Blasts from his tails. Helles then interferes with their battle by firing a bow at Liquiir. A team dynamic was nearly established prior when Sidra protected Belmod and other GoDs from Beerus' blast. Not every GoD needed to do something crazy, but nearly all of them did something worthwhile that made the match so much enjoyable. Do you know how boring it would have been if it was so one-sided with Beerus being the clear victor?

Except it's not one-sided for the protagonists in the manga, so I'm not sure why you'd bring that last question up. The problem is that everything you're praising the Zen Exhibition for was present in the Tournament of Power, and everything you're criticizing the Tournament of Power for was entirely present in the Zen Exhibition as well -- Iwne, Mosco, Arack, Champa, and Geene didn't do anything more unique or worthwhile than fire off those "generic ki blasts" you kept mentioning previously, and a lot of the gods were even off-screened by the time Beerus and Quitela were the last ones standing. Both of these included a whole plethora of characters using unique abilities. Teamwork has been consistently utilized throughout every chapter in the tournament so far, especially the most recent one, so they're not so different in that regard either. Everything going on in the Tournament of Power right now is pretty much identical to the Zen Exhibition in tone, narrative, and character interactions.

The only real difference between the two is the amount of competitors and story consequences that would arise from that gap in quantity. In a large-scale battle royale, it's natural that some participants wouldn't be nearly as competent as others. The frantic nature of a no-holds-barred "every man/team for him/itself" match is quickly going to weed out the weaker individuals in no time flat, and I've already explained why I think the implementation of fodder is necessary for this kind of environment from a storytelling perspective.

[Bergamo]

The absence of the u6 saiyans is starting to get weird. I think they are being saved for a big event, but I'm really dying to see what's up with Kale.

[Alruneia]

The absence of the u6 saiyans is starting to get weird. I think they are being saved for a big event, but I'm really dying to see what's up with Kale.

Yeah, I was looking at Japanese Broly memes earlier, and it got me thinking... we still haven't seen Kale in action in the manga. We haven't seen her transform at all, when in the anime, her Broly form is basically the first thing they introduced about her. Caulifla hasn't done much either. Of course, the manga has no obligation to follow the anime's story, and perhaps Toei wanted to push the saiyan girls more than Toyotaro does, but we're getting to the point where they're going so unused that it feels weird. It's probably the fact that the anime used them as much as it did that makes it feel weird in the first place.
I'm also really curious to see what Toyo is going to have Kale do. Is there even time for her to pull the whole Broly thing at this point? I don't know what Toriyama's outline says she's supposed to do, but if her story ends up at Kefla, which it very well might, there might not be enough time to pull it off first. Though I do say that without knowledge of how many chapters Toyo intends to use on the remainder of the tournament. But there'll probably be a Kefla chapter, an Anilasa chapter, a chapter for Dyspo, at least one chapter for Toppo, several chapters for Jiren... and time flies when your manga is monthly, you know?

[majinwarman]

The absence of the u6 saiyans is starting to get weird. I think they are being saved for a big event, but I'm really dying to see what's up with Kale.

Yeah, I was looking at Japanese Broly memes earlier, and it got me thinking... we still haven't seen Kale in action in the manga. We haven't seen her transform at all, when in the anime, her Broly form is basically the first thing they introduced about her. Caulifla hasn't done much either. Of course, the manga has no obligation to follow the anime's story, and perhaps Toei wanted to push the saiyan girls more than Toyotaro does, but we're getting to the point where they're going so unused that it feels weird. It's probably the fact that the anime used them as much as it did that makes it feel weird in the first place.
I'm also really curious to see what Toyo is going to have Kale do. Is there even time for her to pull the whole Broly thing at this point? I don't know what Toriyama's outline says she's supposed to do, but if her story ends up at Kefla, which it very well might, there might not be enough time to pull it off first. Though I do say that without knowledge of how many chapters Toyo intends to use on the remainder of the tournament. But there'll probably be a Kefla chapter, an Anilasa chapter, a chapter for Dyspo, at least one chapter for Toppo, several chapters for Jiren... and time flies when your manga is monthly, you know?

I think that the manga will probably skip some of those fights you talked about or shorten them. I don't think that this arc will last past 2018 at all.

[Alruneia]

I don't think that this arc will last past 2018 at all.

I'm inclined to agree (though I'm not ruling out early 2019), which is why I added that last sentence to my post. There's a very limited amount of chapters left.

I think that the manga will probably skip some of those fights you talked about or shorten them.

I'm not sure how those battles could be shortened much (besides putting Toppo and Dyspo in the same chapter, maybe), and I'm even less sure which of these battles Toyo can skip entirely, since I tried to keep the list short and only write down what I think are the most "important" fights of the anime version of the arc.

[Raphael_Z]

The absence of the u6 saiyans is starting to get weird. I think they are being saved for a big event, but I'm really dying to see what's up with Kale.

Yeah, I was looking at Japanese Broly memes earlier, and it got me thinking... we still haven't seen Kale in action in the manga. We haven't seen her transform at all, when in the anime, her Broly form is basically the first thing they introduced about her. Caulifla hasn't done much either. Of course, the manga has no obligation to follow the anime's story, and perhaps Toei wanted to push the saiyan girls more than Toyotaro does, but we're getting to the point where they're going so unused that it feels weird. It's probably the fact that the anime used them as much as it did that makes it feel weird in the first place.
I'm also really curious to see what Toyo is going to have Kale do. Is there even time for her to pull the whole Broly thing at this point? I don't know what Toriyama's outline says she's supposed to do, but if her story ends up at Kefla, which it very well might, there might not be enough time to pull it off first. Though I do say that without knowledge of how many chapters Toyo intends to use on the remainder of the tournament. But there'll probably be a Kefla chapter, an Anilasa chapter, a chapter for Dyspo, at least one chapter for Toppo, several chapters for Jiren... and time flies when your manga is monthly, you know?

I really hope that Kefla, Cabba, Magetta and the Namekians (no point in having them battle Gohan alone now that Piccolo is done for) actually team up with Goku and friends to take out U11's members (in the Manga they're playing it SUPER safe as opposed to their 7-member one episode elimination against Goku) or against the Robots from U3.

Having U6 battle U7 would be kind of boring IMO since it would come down to Goku Vegeta Roshi A17 Gohan and Frieza of which 5 out of 6 already have upcoming battles against U11's Top Bosses.