"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Marlowe89]

Yes it is a case of me changing my mind after Chapter 36 left a bad taste in my mouth.

Thanks for the clarification. I don't see how Chapter 36 leaving a bad taste in your mouth would cause you to argue that "these chapters" (the tournament contains, what, four chapters so far?) doesn't produce the sensation that you've been talking about. I'd say that's putting the cart before the horse, but I'm more than happy to go over your specific gripes below.

All we really get is 1v1s, 2v1s, 3v1s, etc. like Doctor had stated.

Right, but that's a dramatic oversimplification of what's actually happening in these chapters. Like I said, more often than not, the manga deliberately blurs the lines between battles all the time with interruptions and constant fight-switching even as recently as Chapter 36. People need to re-read that chapter, by the way, because they're totally describing it inaccurately. The only way you could even begin to contend otherwise is if you restricted yourself to talking solely about fodder opponents, but those aren't really "battles" as they're typically construed by readers, and they don't actually detract from the real battles that do emphasize the chaos of the arc. The manga does an exceptional job of emphasizing the whole tournament as a singular fight either way, so to think of them as individual fights is a massive misconception.

Also wasting characters and off-screening them is another big disappointment. You all keep misinterpreting on my stance on character usage where you truly think that I believe every character deserves their own chapter, when in fact, all I really want is some interesting and engaging eliminations. As well as for some characters to be expressive so we can be entertained by new personalities.

Nah, I think you keep misinterpreting the rebuttal to that outlook. These "characters" from these less relevant universes are nothing more than background dressing intended to lend to the atmosphere of the tournament. Hell, most of their low-effort designs look the part. Character/expression moments just aren't meant for them in ANY capacity that isn't explicitly concerned with conveying what kind of difficulties our main characters have to deal with. Obuni was one of the only fighters to successfully achieve this in the anime.

They don't matter in the way that people think they matter. The story doesn't owe them squat, certainly not what the anime often tried to go for, and unless they're able to contribute to the plot in some way that contextualizes the arc's survival themes as a unique challenge for Universe 7 (like Gamisaras or Damon, for example; excellent job on Toyotaro's part by the way) any screentime you could give them would be nothing more than pointless filler. It's just a bunch of time-wasting nonsense that a lot of us don't care for, and the bigger events were always more interesting anyway.

Nobody's "excusing" Toyotaro's character utilization because it's fine the way it is right now. Actually, I hope it remains exactly like this all the way up until the climax. Keep most of the focus on significant characters where it belongs, please and thank you.

[jeffbr92]

Can't wait for Toyotaro's monthly disasterclass.

Yes, though it may be obfuscated by the World Cup, I'm interested to see how Tracetaro will fail us again this time.

Lol you guys are ridiculously petty... Grow up.

Have you never heard about the lower your expectation, the lesser your disappointment? That's the whole point: if the next chapter turns out to be good, some I'll be invested, otherwise: not surprised.

More highlights to the U6 Saiyans could be a path, Berserker Kale stomping everyone less than the high tiers from U7 and U11 would be amusing.

[Miracles]

Can't wait for Toyotaro's monthly disasterclass.

Yes, though it may be obfuscated by the World Cup, I'm interested to see how Tracetaro will fail us again this time.

Remember, Toyotaro's manga is no nonsense and just gets to the point. Fodder is treated as fodder, Hit jobbed in one blow.

This is progress.

[Bergamo]

I really love how Toyotaro draws eliminations. Every character has a look of shock and pain on their face as they get thrown from the ring.

[Marlowe89]

Yeah, the eliminations themselves are nothing less than superb. I love how most of the fighters are just mercilessly ragdolled off the ring with little to no exceptions, and the fact that the main protagonists aren't above taking a brutal loss like that is exactly what I'd expect from the tournament in general.

[JazzMazz]

Can't wait for Toyotaro's monthly disasterclass.

Yes, though it may be obfuscated by the World Cup, I'm interested to see how Tracetaro will fail us again this time.

Remember, Toyotaro's manga is no nonsense and just gets to the point. Fodder is treated as fodder, Hit jobbed in one blow.

This is progress.

I didn't know getting the point was hurrying through the story at such a pace that any sense of narrative levity or thematic underlying meaning is completely removed from narrative beats.

If thats your definition of progress, than I don't think thats a good thing.

[Bergamo]

Yes, though it may be obfuscated by the World Cup, I'm interested to see how Tracetaro will fail us again this time.

Remember, Toyotaro's manga is no nonsense and just gets to the point. Fodder is treated as fodder, Hit jobbed in one blow.

This is progress.

I didn't know getting the point was hurrying through the story at such a pace that any sense of narrative levity or thematic underlying meaning is completely removed from narrative beats.

If thats your definition of progress, than I don't think thats a good thing.

What about the theme that anyone can be eliminated at any time. That's been done pretty well.

[JazzMazz]

Remember, Toyotaro's manga is no nonsense and just gets to the point. Fodder is treated as fodder, Hit jobbed in one blow.

This is progress.

I didn't know getting the point was hurrying through the story at such a pace that any sense of narrative levity or thematic underlying meaning is completely removed from narrative beats.

If thats your definition of progress, than I don't think thats a good thing.

What about the theme that anyone can be eliminated at any time. That's been done pretty well.

Even, then, not really, again, due to no sense of levity being given to the situations.

Also, it kind of loses any shock value after you do it 15 times straight, we kind of expect people to go out without justifying their existence in the story beyond the superficial "there to fill numbers argument".

[Bergamo]

I didn't know getting the point was hurrying through the story at such a pace that any sense of narrative levity or thematic underlying meaning is completely removed from narrative beats.

If thats your definition of progress, than I don't think thats a good thing.

What about the theme that anyone can be eliminated at any time. That's been done pretty well.

Even, then, not really, again, due to no sense of levity being given to the situations.

Also, it kind of loses any shock value after you do it 15 times straight, we kind of expect people to go out without justifying their existence in the story beyond the superficial "there to fill numbers argument".

I'm not talking about fodder being eliminated, I'm talking about Krillin being blindsighted before he could even do anything and Hit, Piccolo, and 18 all being eliminated before Master Roshi. Those are pretty big upsets that I think contribute to the atmosphere quite well.

[Lord Beerus]

What about the theme that anyone can be eliminated at any time. That's been done pretty well.

Even, then, not really, again, due to no sense of levity being given to the situations.

Also, it kind of loses any shock value after you do it 15 times straight, we kind of expect people to go out without justifying their existence in the story beyond the superficial "there to fill numbers argument".

I'm not talking about fodder being eliminated, I'm talking about Krillin being blindsighted before he could even do anything and Hit, Piccolo, and 18 all being eliminated before Master Roshi. Those are pretty big upsets that I think contribute to the atmosphere quite well.

None of those eliminations feel like they were major upset because the story never gave of the great impression that characters were actually significant in the grand scheme of the tournament.

Krillin is an especially extreme case of this as the story goes out its way to tell you that he's practically dead weight. So him being blindsided and eliminated without doing anything carries no meaning. You might as well of had Frost eliminate some random jabroni from another universe and it would have had the same effect. Which was no effect.

[Bergamo]

Even, then, not really, again, due to no sense of levity being given to the situations.

Also, it kind of loses any shock value after you do it 15 times straight, we kind of expect people to go out without justifying their existence in the story beyond the superficial "there to fill numbers argument".

I'm not talking about fodder being eliminated, I'm talking about Krillin being blindsighted before he could even do anything and Hit, Piccolo, and 18 all being eliminated before Master Roshi. Those are pretty big upsets that I think contribute to the atmosphere quite well.

None of those eliminations feel like they were major upset because the story never gave of the great impression that characters were actually significant in the grand scheme of the tournament.

Krillin is an especially extreme case of this as the story goes out its way to tell you that he's practically dead weight. So him being blindsided and eliminated without doing anything carries no meaning. You might as well of had Frost eliminate some random jabroni from another universe and it would have had the same effect. Which was no effect.

It was actually heavily suggested that Hit would be important in the Tournament of Power. It just doesn't feel that way because we already know what happens in the anime. The reason those other eliminations are shocking is because they happen so suddenly. Not many people thought that Krillin and Tien would go so quickly, and I saw NO ONE predict 18 and Piccolo's fate.

[Lord Beerus]

I'm not talking about fodder being eliminated, I'm talking about Krillin being blindsighted before he could even do anything and Hit, Piccolo, and 18 all being eliminated before Master Roshi. Those are pretty big upsets that I think contribute to the atmosphere quite well.

None of those eliminations feel like they were major upset because the story never gave of the great impression that characters were actually significant in the grand scheme of the tournament.

Krillin is an especially extreme case of this as the story goes out its way to tell you that he's practically dead weight. So him being blindsided and eliminated without doing anything carries no meaning. You might as well of had Frost eliminate some random jabroni from another universe and it would have had the same effect. Which was no effect.

It was actually heavily suggested that Hit would be important in the Tournament of Power. It just doesn't feel that way because we already know what happens in the anime. The reason those other eliminations are shocking is because they happen so suddenly. Not many people thought that Krillin and Tien would go so quickly, and I saw NO ONE predict 18 and Piccolo's fate.

The fates of #18 and Piccolo felt more anticlimactic rather than shocking because we had no pretense that their inclusion in the tournament would be significant. So the levity of those guys being eliminated is no-existent. For the surprise or shock factor to be present when it comes to eliminating a character like Hit, #18 and Piccolo you need to sell the idea that they feel integral to the structure of the plot. The manga just didn't do that. Or at the very least, do do enough of it.

[JazzMazz]

I'm not talking about fodder being eliminated, I'm talking about Krillin being blindsighted before he could even do anything and Hit, Piccolo, and 18 all being eliminated before Master Roshi. Those are pretty big upsets that I think contribute to the atmosphere quite well.

None of those eliminations feel like they were major upset because the story never gave of the great impression that characters were actually significant in the grand scheme of the tournament.

Krillin is an especially extreme case of this as the story goes out its way to tell you that he's practically dead weight. So him being blindsided and eliminated without doing anything carries no meaning. You might as well of had Frost eliminate some random jabroni from another universe and it would have had the same effect. Which was no effect.

It was actually heavily suggested that Hit would be important in the Tournament of Power. It just doesn't feel that way because we already know what happens in the anime. The reason those other eliminations are shocking is because they happen so suddenly. Not many people thought that Krillin and Tien would go so quickly, and I saw NO ONE predict 18 and Piccolo's fate.

Hit had one interaction before Goku before he was knocked out, and prior to that, our only other encounter with Hit in the manga was him getting effortlessly decimated by Goku in the universe 6 tournament.
I think I finally figured out why all the shock eliminations have felt so lacklustre, because they're all pretty much the same as Kuririn's elimination.

Tell me if this sounds familiar.

Character gets involved in fight.

Character gets unexpectedly knocked out of the fight in a single quick maneuverer without actually doing.

Everyone's shocked the character went out without doing anything.

Rinse and repeat.

This formula only gets tiresome, but it also only really works as a gag, or on the first one or two times it occurs. Doing it as excessively as Toyo, I think, actually hurts the story more than anything else, because its a process that is inherently unfulfilling, and inherently plays to repeated shock factor. At this point, Toyo's "surprise" eliminations are more leaving us asking more "was that it", over the intended jaw dropping surprise his obviously been going for with these eliminations.

[Marlowe89]

The fates of #18 and Piccolo felt more anticlimactic rather than shocking because we had no pretense that their inclusion in the tournament would be significant.

Firmly disagree. Their inclusion in the tournament is already significant because of the stakes presented within the story itself -- every time a protagonist is eliminated, Universe 7 is one step closer to getting erased. They're integral to the structure of the plot by default because of the plot. Their eliminations are entirely befitting of its greater narrative themes.

People aren't concentrating enough on the survival aspect, which is the most important part. The problem with the anime is that it tried to elevate other aspects at the expense of that one. Toyotaro is more concerned with telling a story than he is with character melodrama, and I don't blame him.

Character gets unexpectedly knocked out of the fight in a single quick maneuverer without actually doing.

Underlining the second part of this argument for emphasis here. That only strictly applies to Kuririn, and the point of the gag is that he was eliminated before he got to contribute (hence the "Seriously?" line). I'm still not a fan of it, but it was only used a single time so far.

[Bergamo]

None of those eliminations feel like they were major upset because the story never gave of the great impression that characters were actually significant in the grand scheme of the tournament.

Krillin is an especially extreme case of this as the story goes out its way to tell you that he's practically dead weight. So him being blindsided and eliminated without doing anything carries no meaning. You might as well of had Frost eliminate some random jabroni from another universe and it would have had the same effect. Which was no effect.

It was actually heavily suggested that Hit would be important in the Tournament of Power. It just doesn't feel that way because we already know what happens in the anime. The reason those other eliminations are shocking is because they happen so suddenly. Not many people thought that Krillin and Tien would go so quickly, and I saw NO ONE predict 18 and Piccolo's fate.

Hit had one interaction before Goku before he was knocked out, and prior to that, our only other encounter with Hit in the manga was him getting effortlessly decimated by Goku in the universe 6 tournament.
I think I finally figured out why all the shock eliminations have felt so lacklustre, because they're all pretty much the same as Kuririn's elimination.

Tell me if this sounds familiar.

Character gets involved in fight.

Character gets unexpectedly knocked out of the fight in a single quick maneuverer without actually doing.

Everyone's shocked the character went out without doing anything.

Rinse and repeat.

This formula only gets tiresome, but it also only really works as a gag, or on the first one or two times it occurs. Doing it as excessively as Toyo, I think, actually hurts the story more than anything else, because its a process that is inherently unfulfilling, and inherently plays to repeated shock factor. At this point, Toyo's "surprise" eliminations are more leaving us asking more "was that it", over the intended jaw dropping surprise his obviously been going for with these eliminations.

Hit did not get decimated by Goku. It was more of a draw with Goku having the slight advantage. Hit also says that he has gotten stronger and he teases a rematch with Goku. Don't act like these things never happened.

Piccolo defeated the final member of u9 and worked his way through u10. 18 defeated the strongest members of u2. I don't see how this adds up to nothing. Hit showed off his strength and made himself out to be the #2 fighter in the tournament, and he even did the first bit of physical damage to Jiren (which is a feat that was pulled off by UI Goku in the anime).

[majinwarman]

Even, then, not really, again, due to no sense of levity being given to the situations.

Also, it kind of loses any shock value after you do it 15 times straight, we kind of expect people to go out without justifying their existence in the story beyond the superficial "there to fill numbers argument".

I'm not talking about fodder being eliminated, I'm talking about Krillin being blindsighted before he could even do anything and Hit, Piccolo, and 18 all being eliminated before Master Roshi. Those are pretty big upsets that I think contribute to the atmosphere quite well.

None of those eliminations feel like they were major upset because the story never gave of the great impression that characters were actually significant in the grand scheme of the tournament.

Krillin is an especially extreme case of this as the story goes out its way to tell you that he's practically dead weight. So him being blindsided and eliminated without doing anything carries no meaning. You might as well of had Frost eliminate some random jabroni from another universe and it would have had the same effect. Which was no effect.

I agree. None of these eliminations have any impact behind them.

[jeffbr92]

Remember, Toyotaro's manga is no nonsense and just gets to the point. Fodder is treated as fodder, Hit jobbed in one blow.

This is progress.

Still, I believe we can agree that he can do more with these characters than what we're seeing now. Going straight to the point is a good idea? Sure, but at least provide some good characters moments otherwise it will just feel that his story is way too linear and lacking something.

[majinwarman]

Remember, Toyotaro's manga is no nonsense and just gets to the point. Fodder is treated as fodder, Hit jobbed in one blow.

This is progress.

Still, I believe we can agree that he can do more with these characters than what we're seeing now. Going straight to the point is a good idea? Sure, but at least provide some good characters moments otherwise it will just feel that his story is way too linear and lacking something.

I feel no passion behind his writing. The anime may have had its problems but they still had passion behind what they wrote for each episode.

[DestructoDisc]

I only started reading the manga very recently and I really don't like it. I only read the tournament of power chapters so far and they were all terrible. The first was the most decent one but it wasted the yardrat and it didn't even bother showing any of the characters wondering why a yardrat was even Universe 2. The Frost chapter was boring because it was so predictable that Freeza will betray Frost that even my friend who didn't watch the anime knew what will happen to him at the end. Krillin and Tien were badly treated and the Universe 9 fighters didn't leave any impression on me with the exception of Bergamo. The Hit chapter was a borefest and the most recent one was just abysmal to me. 17 gets wanked even more than he was in the anime, 18 gets completely shitted on, Ribrianne got eliminated without any kind of character development and her gimmick with Krillin was just another way to shit on Krillin as if he didn't suffer enough in this arc, the other universe 2 girls were nobodies with a lame ability, Piccolo's elimination was just as pathetic and lame as it was in the anime, etc. If you enjoy it, good for you. I don't.

[Miracles]

I didn't know getting the point was hurrying through the story at such a pace that any sense of narrative levity or thematic underlying meaning is completely removed from narrative beats.

If thats your definition of progress, than I don't think thats a good thing.

The message is clear, weaklings get out only the strong stay. This is how later Dragonball always been.
Ribriannne most likely is all the levity you're gonna get.

Still, I believe we can agree that he can do more with these characters than what we're seeing now. Going straight to the point is a good idea? Sure, but at least provide some good characters moments otherwise it will just feel that his story is way too linear and lacking something.

Characters got used for bigger purposes by the stronger [Kurrin, Tien], Piccolo got outsmarted by U4, 18's guard was down, Not even the strong are safe, where Hit gets sandbagged and then Mortal Kombat'd into the pit at the top of the TOP. We are seeing strategy, power and surprise attacks in this TOP. The reality is there is no glory in that.

I feel no passion behind his writing. The anime may have had its problems but they still had passion behind what they wrote for each episode.

No way, Only the Namekians vs Gohan and Piccolo episode, Frost vs Roshi, Goku vs Jiren fights/special, Hit vs Dyspo had it with the music and desperation depicting an atmosphere worthy of danger.
Everything else was too slow, dragged out with lack of dialogue and bad choreography.