Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Though then Gowasu did say that Merged Zamasu had Goku Black and Zamasu's powers combined and then it was extended to no end.

Because that is the reality of the situation. Fused Zamasu was the most powerful fusion ever, able to wield Goku Black's supreme strenght and Future Zamasu's perfect immortality/invincibility and flawless regeneration capabilities. Fused Zamasu didn't just have a mixture of the two powers, but had endless power altogether.

The writers were pretty naive to create such a powerful and astonishing villain, hence why they add to come up with an unbelievable and silly way to defeat him, because there was no other way at all. And I'm so glad that Toriyama changed his original plan. Have Fused Zamasu be weaker than two Super Saiyan Blue fighters? What a stupid idea. The final villain of an arc shouldn't be that weak. And even what they did in the anime, that they said that Fused Zamasu was just half-immortal, was so dumb. When Goku and Vegeta fused in the Buu saga, it's not like Vegito was half-alive/half-deceased because one of the fusées was dead. No, he was 100% alive. It should have been the same in the anime, Fused Zamasu should have been 100% immortal. Such silly writing.

Which reminds me, it's so stupid that Supreme Kai Shin said in ep. 109 that Jiren is by far the most powerful enemy they have ever faced. So I am supposed to believe that Jiren could easily stomp Infinite Zamasu, a being who merged with the very fabric of reality and took over the multiverse and invaded other timelines all in the matter of a few seconds. Yeah, right. It's just what sounds coolest now, screw every logic. Because why say 'Jiren might be just as powerful and dangerous as Zamasu was!' when you can just say 'Jiren is the strongest guy we've ever faced', thus sounding cool. Because who cares if by doing so you are denigrating Zamasu and the mastodontic feats he achieved, whatever sounuds cooler, right?

There's absolutely no way for Jiren to beat Infinite Zamasu.

I just assume Infinite Zamasu doesn't have a readable power level. Also, he was traveling to the past with his own power while expanding into the multiverse, that's more impressive than anything Jiren did to be honest.

[Helios518]

Though then Gowasu did say that Merged Zamasu had Goku Black and Zamasu's powers combined and then it was extended to no end.

Because that is the reality of the situation. Fused Zamasu was the most powerful fusion ever, able to wield Goku Black's supreme strenght and Future Zamasu's perfect immortality/invincibility and flawless regeneration capabilities. Fused Zamasu didn't just have a mixture of the two powers, but had endless power altogether.

The writers were pretty naive to create such a powerful and astonishing villain, hence why they add to come up with an unbelievable and silly way to defeat him, because there was no other way at all. And I'm so glad that Toriyama changed his original plan. Have Fused Zamasu be weaker than two Super Saiyan Blue fighters? What a stupid idea. The final villain of an arc shouldn't be that weak. And even what they did in the anime, that they said that Fused Zamasu was just half-immortal, was so dumb. When Goku and Vegeta fused in the Buu saga, it's not like Vegito was half-alive/half-deceased because one of the fusées was dead. No, he was 100% alive. It should have been the same in the anime, Fused Zamasu should have been 100% immortal. Such silly writing.

Which reminds me, it's so stupid that Supreme Kai Shin said in ep. 109 that Jiren is by far the most powerful enemy they have ever faced. So I am supposed to believe that Jiren could easily stomp Infinite Zamasu, a being who merged with the very fabric of reality and took over the multiverse and invaded other timelines all in the matter of a few seconds. Yeah, right. It's just what sounds coolest now, screw every logic. Because why say 'Jiren might be just as powerful and dangerous as Zamasu was!' when you can just say 'Jiren is the strongest guy we've ever faced', thus sounding cool. Because who cares if by doing so you are denigrating Zamasu and the mastodontic feats he achieved, whatever sounuds cooler, right?

Infinite Zamasu was *still* attempting to merge with just U7, he didn’t even get finish merging with U7, let alone the multiverse. Hell, as far as we know, Zamasu only managed to absorb just a portion of Earth; seeing as how he didn’t even merged with its ground. So, there’s no problem with Geran being stronger than Infinite Zamasu.

[Kenneth La Torre]

I have no problem with Base Goku and Vegeta being so strong but why are Gohan and Trunks up there with them?

Goku was already far stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan during the Resurrection F saga. Goku then trained hard for three years in the Rosat, he was involved in many tough battles and took advantage of special training equipment from Whis.

Meanwhile Gohan just trained with Piccolo, for not nearly as long a time and no special equipment and he would seemingly have grown at a vastly quicker pace.

Trunks didn't even have anyone to train with.

Cause of plot, and because toriyama and toei dont know how to slowly power up a character. Gohan when he first unlocked mystic in super, was stated to be on the level he was in the Buu saga, but then piccolo was like “bitch, thats outdated. SSB is where is at” and gohan was like “no problem”, and a couple hours later he reached the domain of ssg/ssb powers.

I'm with you that it doesnt make sense, but what the hell could they have done to make him comparable to vegeta and goku without giving him ssjb. He needed that boost in power if he was to take on the top dogs in the tournament, especially universe 11s top 3

[SupremeKai25]

Though then Gowasu did say that Merged Zamasu had Goku Black and Zamasu's powers combined and then it was extended to no end.

Because that is the reality of the situation. Fused Zamasu was the most powerful fusion ever, able to wield Goku Black's supreme strenght and Future Zamasu's perfect immortality/invincibility and flawless regeneration capabilities. Fused Zamasu didn't just have a mixture of the two powers, but had endless power altogether.

The writers were pretty naive to create such a powerful and astonishing villain, hence why they add to come up with an unbelievable and silly way to defeat him, because there was no other way at all. And I'm so glad that Toriyama changed his original plan. Have Fused Zamasu be weaker than two Super Saiyan Blue fighters? What a stupid idea. The final villain of an arc shouldn't be that weak. And even what they did in the anime, that they said that Fused Zamasu was just half-immortal, was so dumb. When Goku and Vegeta fused in the Buu saga, it's not like Vegito was half-alive/half-deceased because one of the fusées was dead. No, he was 100% alive. It should have been the same in the anime, Fused Zamasu should have been 100% immortal. Such silly writing.

Which reminds me, it's so stupid that Supreme Kai Shin said in ep. 109 that Jiren is by far the most powerful enemy they have ever faced. So I am supposed to believe that Jiren could easily stomp Infinite Zamasu, a being who merged with the very fabric of reality and took over the multiverse and invaded other timelines all in the matter of a few seconds. Yeah, right. It's just what sounds coolest now, screw every logic. Because why say 'Jiren might be just as powerful and dangerous as Zamasu was!' when you can just say 'Jiren is the strongest guy we've ever faced', thus sounding cool. Because who cares if by doing so you are denigrating Zamasu and the mastodontic feats he achieved, whatever sounuds cooler, right?

Infinite Zamasu was *still* attempting to merge with just U7, he didn’t even get finish merging with U7, let alone the multiverse. Hell, as far as we know, Zamasu only managed to absorb just a portion of Earth; seeing as how he didn’t even merged with its ground. So, there’s no problem with Geran being stronger than Infinite Zamasu.

Yeah, right, Jiren will defeat Infinite Zamasu with his glare attack, I guess. Like that's going to do anything against a massive sky.

Also, Infinite Zamasu became the entire Future timeline, because the King of All said 'A world [timeline] like this must disappear!'. Otherwise, he would have just said 'This universe/This planet must disappear!'.

[Helios518]

Because that is the reality of the situation. Fused Zamasu was the most powerful fusion ever, able to wield Goku Black's supreme strenght and Future Zamasu's perfect immortality/invincibility and flawless regeneration capabilities. Fused Zamasu didn't just have a mixture of the two powers, but had endless power altogether.

The writers were pretty naive to create such a powerful and astonishing villain, hence why they add to come up with an unbelievable and silly way to defeat him, because there was no other way at all. And I'm so glad that Toriyama changed his original plan. Have Fused Zamasu be weaker than two Super Saiyan Blue fighters? What a stupid idea. The final villain of an arc shouldn't be that weak. And even what they did in the anime, that they said that Fused Zamasu was just half-immortal, was so dumb. When Goku and Vegeta fused in the Buu saga, it's not like Vegito was half-alive/half-deceased because one of the fusées was dead. No, he was 100% alive. It should have been the same in the anime, Fused Zamasu should have been 100% immortal. Such silly writing.

Which reminds me, it's so stupid that Supreme Kai Shin said in ep. 109 that Jiren is by far the most powerful enemy they have ever faced. So I am supposed to believe that Jiren could easily stomp Infinite Zamasu, a being who merged with the very fabric of reality and took over the multiverse and invaded other timelines all in the matter of a few seconds. Yeah, right. It's just what sounds coolest now, screw every logic. Because why say 'Jiren might be just as powerful and dangerous as Zamasu was!' when you can just say 'Jiren is the strongest guy we've ever faced', thus sounding cool. Because who cares if by doing so you are denigrating Zamasu and the mastodontic feats he achieved, whatever sounuds cooler, right?

Infinite Zamasu was *still* attempting to merge with just U7, he didn’t even get finish merging with U7, let alone the multiverse. Hell, as far as we know, Zamasu only managed to absorb just a portion of Earth; seeing as how he didn’t even merged with its ground. So, there’s no problem with Geran being stronger than Infinite Zamasu.

Yeah, right, Jiren will defeat Infinite Zamasu with his glare attack, I guess. Like that's going to do anything against a massive sky.

Also, Infinite Zamasu became the entire Future timeline, because the King of All said 'A world [timeline] like this must disappear!'. Otherwise, he would have just said 'This universe/This planet must disappear!'.

A giant and powerful enough AOE could destroy Zamasu. I wouldn’t doubt if Geran could create an explosion strong enough to encompass Earth and Zamasu.

Just because he said the world must disappear doesn’t mean the entire timeline is infected. It could definitely just be a “there’s a spider in my house, time to burn the house” situation, and considering Zeno destroyed 6 universes just because he got a bit mad, I wouldn’t past him. This is supported by the fact that Zeno in both version of DBS, could’ve just killed Zamasu alone but they both decided to wipe the timeline.

[Bullza]

I'm with you that it doesnt make sense, but what the hell could they have done to make him comparable to vegeta and goku without giving him ssjb. He needed that boost in power if he was to take on the top dogs in the tournament, especially universe 11s top 3

Well considering Gohan's Ultimate Form is supposed to be him with all his potential unleashed and as I said Vegeta still said he had more potential than them then I don't have a problem so much with Ultimate Gohan being as strong as Super Saiyan Blue.

The problem is that they didn't really explain how he went from his original strength to that level in such a short period. Also why did he not have this power when it was originally unlocked anyway?

If they'd explained that there was still a wealth of dormant power left in Gohan and they showed a specific way why it all came out then it would have been simpler.

Otherwise I don't really think Ultimate Gohan or Android 17 should ever have been as strong as they were portrayed. You'd have to think Android 17 was stronger than a hypothetical Super Saiyan 3 Vegito in the Buu saga now and that's just ridiculous.

[Koitsukai]

So Jiren isn't that strong huh? he got mad and that alone set the entire stage on fire which was built with something stronger than the strongest material in the multiverse. He could probably destroy a planet or two at once (Beerus did it with just one finger tapping on the table, Freeza did that too 40 years ago!!)

I don't think anyone could erase an infected universe (although that could be a GoD's red button ability and Jiren is above them) but that was not the case with Zamasu, he didn't even got close to that, Earth and perhaps Mars and Venus were infected AT BEST, do you have any idea how big the universe is? or the solar system to be more accurate? there was no time, even at the speed of light which IZ was not moving at taking into account just how far he got and how much it took him to engulf the Earth. And as it was shown, IZ energy wasn't that much away from Earth, not at the time Zeno destroyed everything. You can see in the background stars at a safe distance at the moment, actually you only see Earth engulfed so i'ts not true that everything was infected. The past was probably starting to get infected through that whole in the space-time fabric done by Black's scythe, but it doesn't matter.
Zeno erasing every single cm3 of the universe doesn't mean it was all infected, at all. And knowing Zeno's personality and previous erasures proves it.

So yes, if Jiren was standing there he could have erased the solar system just to be safe, he at least is able to do that. And he can survive in space as in the manga he flew from one planet to another to save the Pride Troopers

[Kenneth La Torre]

So Jiren isn't that strong huh? he got mad and that alone set the entire stage on fire which was built with something stronger than the strongest material in the multiverse. He could probably destroy a planet or two at once (Beerus did it with just one finger tapping on the table, Freeza did that too 40 years ago!!)

I don't think anyone could erase an infected universe (although that could be a GoD's red button ability and Jiren is above them) but that was not the case with Zamasu, he didn't even got close to that, Earth and perhaps Mars and Venus were infected AT BEST, do you have any idea how big the universe is? or the solar system to be more accurate? there was no time, even at the speed of light which IZ was not moving at taking into account just how far he got and how much it took him to engulf the Earth. And as it was shown, IZ energy wasn't that much away from Earth, not at the time Zeno destroyed everything. You can see in the background stars at a safe distance at the moment, actually you only see Earth engulfed so i'ts not true that everything was infected. The past was probably starting to get infected through that whole in the space-time fabric done by Black's scythe, but it doesn't matter.
Zeno erasing every single cm3 of the universe doesn't mean it was all infected, at all. And knowing Zeno's personality and previous erasures proves it.

So yes, if Jiren was standing there he could have erased the solar system just to be safe, he at least is able to do that. And he can survive in space as in the manga he flew from one planet to another to save the Pride Troopers

You must be trolling.

[Cetra]

Just because he said the world must disappear doesn’t mean the entire timeline is infected. It could definitely just be a “there’s a spider in my house, time to burn the house” situation, and considering Zeno destroyed 6 universes just because he got a bit mad, I wouldn’t past him. This is supported by the fact that Zeno in both version of DBS, could’ve just killed Zamasu alone but they both decided to wipe the timeline.

This is the problem I had with the manga version. It really seemed like a "powerful AOE". I don't think the anime Zamasu worked like that. I think it simply was because Zenou is who he is. Univerzalmasu did not really seem like any normal logic would apply to him. The combo attack did not just "weak damage" to him, it was just nullified as if he was invulnerable. I think Zenou can only beat him because he is an even greater cheater than Zamasu himself, as in "well, it's Zenou".

I don't think anyone at this point bar Zenou was better than Zamasu in the anime. Not even the angels. He was just a special case. An entity that cannot be beaten with common sense because it is no longer bound to it.

[PFM18]

Power creep is a thing you know. Gt goku is already at least ssj3 level by beating an opponent who is stronger than buu (base rildo), in his base. So why cant a goku who trained several years with an angel almost infinitly more powerful than any Gt character, be more powerful than his Gt counter part?

Because GT remains (somewhat) consistent with its portrayal of a ridiculously strong base Goku. As in, base Goku actually beats the fuck out of characters that were weaker than SS3 Goku in the previous series, like the other Super Saiyans.

In Super, Goku can smack the fuck out of SS3 Gotenks in one moment and be forced to go Super Saiyan to fight Gohan and Kuririn in the next one.

Literally ever character in the ToP, Roshi and the humans included, is comparable to BoG SSG Goku if we say base Goku is this strong. Wow, Beerus was so excited to fight a SSG when he could have fought literally everyone else after training them for a few hours?

How do you figure that the humans and Roshi are comparable to Base Goku? And what is wrong with characters in other universes being as strong as SSG Goku? They are the strongest of their respective Universes. If you are one of the strongest in your Universe it stands to reason that you could expect to compete with the weakest form of one of the other Universe's ace fighters. Obviously, the humans and Piccolo being SSG level would be ridiculous but other characters not really

[Doctor.]

How do you figure that the humans and Roshi are comparable to Base Goku? And what is wrong with characters in other universes being as strong as SSG Goku? They are the strongest of their respective Universes. If you are one of the strongest in your Universe it stands to reason that you could expect to compete with the weakest form of one of the other Universe's ace fighters. Obviously, the humans and Piccolo being SSG level would be ridiculous but other characters not really

Roshi is comparable to Kuririn. Kuririn forced Goku to go Super Saiyan, beat base Gohan (who is comparable to base Goku as we saw on numerous occasions) and is himself comparable to #18 (who defeated with ease an opponent base Goku was having trouble handling). Roshi was also breaking the Katchi-Katchin, so he definitely isn't as weak as he was before; at the very least he's stronger than Boo arc base Gohan, which would already make for a ridiculous power boost.

So either everyone, including Roshi, Kuririn and Tenshinhan, is comparable to SSG Goku from BoG, or Goku's not as strong as SSG in his base.

Every character in the ToP being as strong as SSG Goku is bad because it completely undermines the point of BoG, which was Beerus being excited to fight someone as strong as a Super Saiyan God. If he could just jump to a different universe and fight someone as strong or stronger without any difficulty, then he would have.

[PFM18]

How do you figure that the humans and Roshi are comparable to Base Goku? And what is wrong with characters in other universes being as strong as SSG Goku? They are the strongest of their respective Universes. If you are one of the strongest in your Universe it stands to reason that you could expect to compete with the weakest form of one of the other Universe's ace fighters. Obviously, the humans and Piccolo being SSG level would be ridiculous but other characters not really

Roshi is comparable to Kuririn. Kuririn forced Goku to go Super Saiyan, beat base Gohan (who is comparable to base Goku as we saw on numerous occasions) and is himself comparable to #18 (who defeated with ease an opponent base Goku was having trouble handling). Roshi was also breaking the Katchi-Katchin, so he definitely isn't as weak as he was before; at the very least he's stronger than Boo arc base Gohan, which would already make for a ridiculous power boost.

So either everyone, including Roshi, Kuririn and Tenshinhan, is comparable to SSG Goku from BoG, or Goku's not as strong as SSG in his base.

Every character in the ToP being as strong as SSG Goku is bad because it completely undermines the point of BoG, which was Beerus being excited to fight someone as strong as a Super Saiyan God. If he could just jump to a different universe and fight someone as strong or stronger without any difficulty, then he would have.

Goku definitely isnt as strong as SSG in base. He is probably fairly close to it though. To be equal to SSG in base he would have to have gotten 50x stronger.

I dont see Base Gohan and Base Goku being similar. The only evidence we have of that being the xase is the fight on the farm and that shouldnt be taken seriously because Goku was just sparring with hid kid. How are Roshi and Kuririn similar?? Who are you referring to that 18 beat that goku couldnt? Additionally, Roshi being able to break the arena doesnt 100% indicate he's>Boo arc Gohan because we dont know that Gohan couldnt break Katchin with ki blasts just the sword.

I dont think Beerus can just jump over to another universe to fight people. Otherwise he would have tried to fight Toppo or Jiren. And even if he could he is very lazy and probably wouldnt go through the trouble

[Doctor.]

Goku definitely isnt as strong as SSG in base. He is probably fairly close to it though. To be equal to SSG in base he would have to have gotten 50x stronger.

I dont see Base Gohan and Base Goku being similar. The only evidence we have of that being the xase is the fight on the farm and that shouldnt be taken seriously because Goku was just sparring with hid kid. How are Roshi and Kuririn similar?? Who are you referring to that 18 beat that goku couldnt?

I dont think Beerus can just jump over to another universe to fight people. Otherwise he would have tried to fight Toppo or Jiren. And even if he could he is very lazy and probably wouldnt go through the trouble

Goku and Gohan were even in base in #90.

Kuririn and Roshi are similar because Roshi beat Tenshinhan. That guy that could change his weight.

Beerus and Whis jumped over to U10 with no issue back in the Zamasu arc. And Beerus knew who Zamasu was back then too, so he could have just fought him instead of trying to find a SSG.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Goku definitely isnt as strong as SSG in base. He is probably fairly close to it though. To be equal to SSG in base he would have to have gotten 50x stronger.

I dont see Base Gohan and Base Goku being similar. The only evidence we have of that being the xase is the fight on the farm and that shouldnt be taken seriously because Goku was just sparring with hid kid. How are Roshi and Kuririn similar?? Who are you referring to that 18 beat that goku couldnt?

I dont think Beerus can just jump over to another universe to fight people. Otherwise he would have tried to fight Toppo or Jiren. And even if he could he is very lazy and probably wouldnt go through the trouble

Goku and Gohan were even in base in #90.

Kuririn and Roshi are similar because Roshi beat Tenshinhan. That guy that could change his weight.

Beerus and Whis jumped over to U10 with no issue back in the Zamasu arc. And Beerus knew who Zamasu was back then too, so he could have just fought him instead of trying to find a SSG.

He can cross over, but i doubt he can just pick a fight with any mortal he wants, without its god of destruction having a say in it. And I'm sure beerus, or any other god fighting jiren is a very, very bad idea, as the fight would probably end with the universe destroyed do to their immense power (unless it applies to hakaishins only, tho jiren shaked the world of void with his mere energy, so its probably not hakaishin exclusive)

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So, I've often thrown around the idea that one doesn't need to exactly be of equal or slightly lesser/greater strength than your opponent to have an even brawl with them, even if the difference seems large; proper reading of movement patterns and the quality of one's martial arts can make up the difference in power level.

I've also often been brushed off when I use this mindset in my analyses.

The primary arguments put against mine seem to be "didn't work in DB-old, shouldn't work now" or "[X] battle power has to be exactly matching [Y] battle power to make sense". Since we're in a strength discussion free period, I'm curious to have a discussion on this debate between analysis approaches, if it suits the fancies of folks around here.

[PFM18]

Goku definitely isnt as strong as SSG in base. He is probably fairly close to it though. To be equal to SSG in base he would have to have gotten 50x stronger.

I dont see Base Gohan and Base Goku being similar. The only evidence we have of that being the xase is the fight on the farm and that shouldnt be taken seriously because Goku was just sparring with hid kid. How are Roshi and Kuririn similar?? Who are you referring to that 18 beat that goku couldnt?

I dont think Beerus can just jump over to another universe to fight people. Otherwise he would have tried to fight Toppo or Jiren. And even if he could he is very lazy and probably wouldnt go through the trouble

Goku and Gohan were even in base in #90.

Kuririn and Roshi are similar because Roshi beat Tenshinhan. That guy that could change his weight.

Beerus and Whis jumped over to U10 with no issue back in the Zamasu arc. And Beerus knew who Zamasu was back then too, so he could have just fought him instead of trying to find a SSG.

Were they? I don't recall...

Roshi beat Tien when he was possessed and became especially buff. I don't see how that is really a good example. He must have gotten a considerable power up from this little fiasco where he was being controlled.

[Doctor.]

Goku definitely isnt as strong as SSG in base. He is probably fairly close to it though. To be equal to SSG in base he would have to have gotten 50x stronger.

I dont see Base Gohan and Base Goku being similar. The only evidence we have of that being the xase is the fight on the farm and that shouldnt be taken seriously because Goku was just sparring with hid kid. How are Roshi and Kuririn similar?? Who are you referring to that 18 beat that goku couldnt?

I dont think Beerus can just jump over to another universe to fight people. Otherwise he would have tried to fight Toppo or Jiren. And even if he could he is very lazy and probably wouldnt go through the trouble

Goku and Gohan were even in base in #90.

Kuririn and Roshi are similar because Roshi beat Tenshinhan. That guy that could change his weight.

Beerus and Whis jumped over to U10 with no issue back in the Zamasu arc. And Beerus knew who Zamasu was back then too, so he could have just fought him instead of trying to find a SSG.

Were they? I don't recall...

Roshi beat Tien when he was possessed and became especially buff. I don't see how that is really a good example. He must have gotten a considerable power up from this little fiasco where he was being controlled.

Goku says it's Roshi's hidden power.

[Bullza]

Yeah, don't ask me to find it now but one of the writers for the show on Twitter said that Roshi was powered up by whatever it was that was possessing him.

So normally he probably is weaker than Tien.

[Marlowe89]

So, I've often thrown around the idea that one doesn't need to exactly be of equal or slightly lesser/greater strength than your opponent to have an even brawl with them, even if the difference seems large; proper reading of movement patterns and the quality of one's martial arts can make up the difference in power level.

That was the official explanation for why base Goku was able to fight on par with Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla at first, but I don't think it suffices for just magically handwaving every little apparent discrepancy in the show; especially the ones that are very clearly focused on power output or brute strength above all else. You'd have to be careful with how that reasoning is applied, otherwise it's just incongruent with the reality of the anime's production.

[ZombieVito]

A giant and powerful enough AOE could destroy Zamasu. I wouldn’t doubt if Geran could create an explosion strong enough to encompass Earth and Zamasu.

Nope.

Immortal beings can't be destroyed. Jiren is screwed if he fights him since he doesn't have Zeno's erase technique.