Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Helios518]

Also, Jiren cannot destroy Infinite Zamasu because Infinite Zamasu was immortal. Not even the Hakai could work on him. So Jiren's only way to beat Infinite Zamasu would be to somehow trap him in another dimension.

Yeah, yeah, good luck trapping the f*cking planet on another dimension. I can already imagine Jiren desperately casting the Mafuba on the sky.

Not a planet. He became the universe and was expanding to all other universes.

Also comparing Zamasus's attacks to a fly? Come on now, 17 could hurt Jiren and Zamasu is multiple times stronger than him.

There's nothing saying that Zamasu became U7 already.

17 got Geran by surprised unless you seriously believe that 17 is above SSJBKKx20 and SSJBE.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Also, Jiren cannot destroy Infinite Zamasu because Infinite Zamasu was immortal. Not even the Hakai could work on him. So Jiren's only way to beat Infinite Zamasu would be to somehow trap him in another dimension.

Yeah, yeah, good luck trapping the f*cking planet on another dimension. I can already imagine Jiren desperately casting the Mafuba on the sky.

Not a planet. He became the universe and was expanding to all other universes.

Also comparing Zamasus's attacks to a fly? Come on now, 17 could hurt Jiren and Zamasu is multiple times stronger than him.

There's nothing saying that Zamasu became U7 already.

17 got Geran by surprised unless you seriously believe that 17 is above SSJBKKx20 and SSJBE.

And why act as if that was actually damage worthy too? All he accomplished was a damaged uniform.

[HeroR]

Here's what happened last time Kuririn tried to overpower someone. Now, even in Super's nonsensical world where characters can somewhat match massively stronger characters with skill and knowledge, the fact is that Kuririn threw a blast that Goku couldn't overpower through strength alone and was forced to go Super Saiyan in order to deflect it. Why not power-up in base, to this SS3 Gotenks+ level of strength he has, and deflect the blast? Logically, we have two alternatives here:

1) Kuririn is stronger than Perfect Cell and, thus, closer to Goku's level, or
2) Goku's base is weaker than Perfect Cell and, thus, closer to Kuririn's level;

Any other rationalization screams denial because you're blatantly ignoring what's being presented to you on-screen. Piccolo at least has the excuse that he was just trying to lure Goku in so that Gohan could get a clean hit off. Goku here has no excuse. You can say that he later went SSB in order to test Kuririn's resolve, but here he was forced to go Super Saiyan because he couldn't overpower Kuririn's blast; he'd lose the match otherwise. No amount of mental gymnastics will change what's on-screen.

And why would Piccolo hold back so much that Goku wouldn’t even move? What was the point of even charging up? He could have just attack Goku and choked him like he did against Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

So it’s amusing that’s you’re accusing me of mental gymnastics.

Who says Piccolo couldn't have done something else apart from that attack?

He obviously could have.

The Krillin stuff was to show what he could do and how battle skills can help him over come some power difference but against much more powerful opponents he will stuggle big time.

The Piccolo attack was just used so Gohan can get a clean attack in and Piccolo was sinply waiting and not really powering up if you compare the same attack to the one in episode 119 which seemed much quicker and had much more strain on his body and being quite powerful according to Whis.

Overall the Krillin bit was to show skill while Piccolo and Gohan stuff was used to show teamwork. Also people need to remember that these are not serious battles so there will probably be unusual power stuff.

Regardless of whether you consider these battles during the recruitment arc are not serious battles, at the end of the day Goku was still forced to go Super Saiyan against Krillin. It makes sense and I hate it but there isn't really a rational reason for it. Doctor explained it very well. Goku's demeanor was definitely one of being serious when he was forced to go SSJ in order to overpower Krillin's ki blast. Although Super probably made a good writing decision by introducing other factors than just strictly "is A>B?" But at the end of the day Krillin still overpowered Goku in base.

So do you actually believe that Krillin is stronger than base Goku or was it simply a flashy moment?

So why didn’t he?

[TheSaiyanGod]

What do you think about Hitto Vs Hakaishin Toppo?

Some people say that Hitto would have chances because of his strategy, but I do not see anything being effective against Toppo. His invisible Ki spheres would be nullified by Hakai's barrier, the Time Skip would be useless to someone like Toppo, and I doubt if even the cage team would pass through Hakai's barrier.

In fact, I believe that if Toppo was hit by this technique, he would have to leave.
A heavily suppressed Jiren was able to leave, and Hakaishin Toppo is much stronger than that

[Helios518]

What do you think about Hitto Vs Hakaishin Toppo?

Some people say that Hitto would have chances because of his strategy, but I do not see anything being effective against Toppo. His invisible Ki spheres would be nullified by Hakai's barrier, the Time Skip would be useless to someone like Toppo, and I doubt if even the cage team would pass through Hakai's barrier.

In fact, I believe that if Toppo was hit by this technique, he would have to leave.
A heavily suppressed Jiren was able to leave, and Hakaishin Toppo is much stronger than that

You're right about the Time Cage, and Time Skip but there's two things we don't know. If Hit's invisible attacks bypass the destruction barrier, and If Hit's killing move is a one shot.

If the answer is yes to both, then Hit can defeat GoD Toppo assuming he doesn't get blitzed. Otherwise, Hit loses all of the time.

[ZombieVito]

Not a planet. He became the universe and was expanding to all other universes.

Also comparing Zamasus's attacks to a fly? Come on now, 17 could hurt Jiren and Zamasu is multiple times stronger than him.

There's nothing saying that Zamasu became U7 already.

17 got Geran by surprised unless you seriously believe that 17 is above SSJBKKx20 and SSJBE.

And why act as if that was actually damage worthy too? All he accomplished was a damaged uniform.

You guys just don't get it do you?

It doesn't matter if the damage is next to null. Zamasu can attack consistently for ALL ETERNITY without stopping. Also, in due time he will become the entire multiverse and be EVERYWHERE. No matter how strong Jiren is, he needs to sleep, eat and rest eventually. He can't tank or guard the attacks forever and he won't have a safe place for long.

He eventually will die. Plain and simple.

[Logania]

I know wallpaper Zamasu can basically attack endlessly and can't be hurt by ordinary attacks, but I wonder if a God of Destruction can use Hakai on him. He's the size of the universe, but it's still destroying just one thing: Zamasu.

[Miracles]

What do you think about Hitto Vs Hakaishin Toppo?

Some people say that Hitto would have chances because of his strategy, but I do not see anything being effective against Toppo. His invisible Ki spheres would be nullified by Hakai's barrier, the Time Skip would be useless to someone like Toppo, and I doubt if even the cage team would pass through Hakai's barrier.

In fact, I believe that if Toppo was hit by this technique, he would have to leave.
A heavily suppressed Jiren was able to leave, and Hakaishin Toppo is much stronger than that

Hit gets wrecked. Hit couldn't even handle Toppo's underling in BASE Dyspo.
All of a sudden he is gonna be able to stand against god Toppo let alone beat BASE Toppo?

[ZombieVito]

I know wallpaper Zamasu can basically attack endlessly and can't be hurt by ordinary attacks, but I wonder if a God of Destruction can use Hakai on him. He's the size of the universe, but it's still destroying just one thing: Zamasu.

They can't. Beerus said he can't Hakai an immortal being.

[SupremeKai25]

It doesn't matter if the damage is next to null. Zamasu can attack consistently for ALL ETERNITY without stopping. Also, in due time he will become the entire multiverse and be EVERYWHERE. No matter how strong Jiren is, he needs to sleep, eat and rest eventually. He can't tank or guard the attacks forever and he won't have a safe place for long.

Exactly. Plus don't forget that he wasn't just expanding his influence across the Future Multiverse, he was also invading other timelines. For example, he reached the Present timeline by using the same time rift that Future Trunks and co. had used with their Time Machine.

I actually can't decide whether Infinite Zamasu is more OP in the anime or in the manga. Because he was pretty strong in the manga too. I mean, he was an endless army of thousands upon thousands of Fused Zamases with the same power level, and they could constantly regenerate and multiply after every hit. Not even Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku could do anything against such an opponent, because it doesn't matter how powerful you are, you cannot destroy that which is immortal and endless in numbers.

But, sure, I am supposed to believe that Jiren could easily annihilate an immortal being who merged with the very Universe, or an immortal being who could multiply into thousands upon thousands of clones possessing the same amazing strength as the original. Oh, and both incarnations of Infinite Zamasu are all immortal, which means no need for food/rest, no exhaustion, no risk of dying, etc.

[Nevaeh]

And why would Piccolo hold back so much that Goku wouldn’t even move? What was the point of even charging up? He could have just attack Goku and choked him like he did against Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

So it’s amusing that’s you’re accusing me of mental gymnastics.

Who says Piccolo couldn't have done something else apart from that attack?

He obviously could have.

Regardless of whether you consider these battles during the recruitment arc are not serious battles, at the end of the day Goku was still forced to go Super Saiyan against Krillin. It makes sense and I hate it but there isn't really a rational reason for it. Doctor explained it very well. Goku's demeanor was definitely one of being serious when he was forced to go SSJ in order to overpower Krillin's ki blast. Although Super probably made a good writing decision by introducing other factors than just strictly "is A>B?" But at the end of the day Krillin still overpowered Goku in base.

So do you actually believe that Krillin is stronger than base Goku or was it simply a flashy moment?

Is definitely something similar as ssj vegeta struggling with rebriane, to then later stomp her butterfly form in base. Goku and co simply like holding back a lot. Have no idea why, but thats just what it seems.

That's should've been obvious after Beerus yelled at him to stop fucking around and after powering up in base before taking on Jiren

You could even look at the FT arc. Him and Vegeta don't go full power in blue until after Fused Zamasu almost kills them

[RandomGuy96]

I haven't seen much of anything of the last two arcs, so as an experiment I'm just going to read the manga and see what conclusions I come to just from that, with nothing else influencing me, consciously or otherwise.

[Helios518]

There's nothing saying that Zamasu became U7 already.

17 got Geran by surprised unless you seriously believe that 17 is above SSJBKKx20 and SSJBE.

And why act as if that was actually damage worthy too? All he accomplished was a damaged uniform.

You guys just don't get it do you?

It doesn't matter if the damage is next to null. Zamasu can attack consistently for ALL ETERNITY without stopping. Also, in due time he will become the entire multiverse and be EVERYWHERE. No matter how strong Jiren is, he needs to sleep, eat and rest eventually. He can't tank or guard the attacks forever and he won't have a safe place for long.

He eventually will die. Plain and simple.

So the only way Infinite Zamasu can defeat Geran, is if the latter doesn’t even have his guard up? That’s not really impressive considering a Freeza soldier laser almost killed Goku.

[Helios518]

But, sure, I am supposed to believe that Jiren could easily annihilate an immortal being who merged with the very Universe, or an immortal being who could multiply into thousands upon thousands of clones possessing the same amazing strength as the original. Oh, and both incarnations of Infinite Zamasu are all immortal, which means no need for food/rest, no exhaustion, no risk of dying, etc.

The series was never trying to make you believe that Geran can destroy an immortal being. It was trying to make you believe that Geran has more raw power than him; which is true, as there’s no contradiction to it. It’s like you’re up playing Kid Boo because Hit would have no way to put him down despite the latter’s far superior power.

Hit gets wrecked. Hit couldn't even handle Toppo's underling in BASE Dyspo.
All of a sudden he is gonna be able to stand against god Toppo let alone beat BASE Toppo?

I’m guessing you missed the part where Hit did decent for his pl against 109 Geran, the part where Hit stomped base Dyspo after he countered his time-skip counter, and the fact that he couldn’t even using his killing move.

[Zamasu55]

You're confusing manga with anime.

In the manga, Beerus stated he couldn't destroy an immortal being.

BUT, that's not the case in the anime. Beerus wasn't worried at all, whereas Jiren freaked him out.

[ZombieVito]

So the only way Infinite Zamasu can defeat Geran, is if the latter doesn’t even have his guard up? That’s not really impressive considering a Freeza soldier laser almost killed Goku.

Christ... You are completely missing the point again.

How hard is to understand that Infinite Zamasu can pretty much attack Jiren for all eternity? Jiren can't endure those attacks for ever, he doesn't have infinite stamina.

You're confusing manga with anime.

In the manga, Beerus stated he couldn't destroy an immortal being.

BUT, that's not the case in the anime. Beerus wasn't worried at all, whereas Jiren freaked him out.

Watch the scene again. It's pretty much implied they need to seal him up because he can't destroy him.

[SupremeKai25]

Him and Vegeta don't go full power in blue until after Fused Zamasu almost kills them

Yes, because they were exhausted after they were completely overwhelmed by Black's clones.

Which reminds me, why did Fused Zamasu never use the scythe technique that Black had? It seems to me it would have been quite useful, especially in the fight against Vegito, but apparently he forgot he could tear a rift in reality and summon an endless stream of clones.

How hard is to understand that Infinite Zamasu can pretty much attack Jiren for all eternity? Jiren can't endure those attacks for ever, he doesn't have infinite stamina.

Pretty much. Gowasu even stated that Fused Zamasu had endless strength, and Fused Zamasu himself says that his new form has limitless potential. Indeed, even Goku Black before fusing had expanded his power beyond his own divine comprehension.

Also, your counter-argument for 'Zamasu became the Universe' boils down to 'They didn't show Zamasu take over other planets'. Except they did. What do you think Infinite Zamasu was doing in this scene?

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[ZombieVito]

It doesn't matter if the damage is next to null. Zamasu can attack consistently for ALL ETERNITY without stopping. Also, in due time he will become the entire multiverse and be EVERYWHERE. No matter how strong Jiren is, he needs to sleep, eat and rest eventually. He can't tank or guard the attacks forever and he won't have a safe place for long.

Exactly. Plus don't forget that he wasn't just expanding his influence across the Future Multiverse, he was also invading other timelines. For example, he reached the Present timeline by using the same time rift that Future Trunks and co. had used with their Time Machine.

I actually can't decide whether Infinite Zamasu is more OP in the anime or in the manga. Because he was pretty strong in the manga too. I mean, he was an endless army of thousands upon thousands of Fused Zamases with the same power level, and they could constantly regenerate and multiply after every hit. Not even Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku could do anything against such an opponent, because it doesn't matter how powerful you are, you cannot destroy that which is immortal and endless in numbers.

But, sure, I am supposed to believe that Jiren could easily annihilate an immortal being who merged with the very Universe, or an immortal being who could multiply into thousands upon thousands of clones possessing the same amazing strength as the original. Oh, and both incarnations of Infinite Zamasu are all immortal, which means no need for food/rest, no exhaustion, no risk of dying, etc.

The manga one is kinda pathetic if you compared them tbh.

He's very weak for one. Corrupted Zamasu is GoD tier afterall and If they fought it would be Beerus vs Blue Vegeta round 2.

The anime version also has no body so you can't really touch him. You can seal each of the clones or stun them to try and escape but you can't really do that in the anime.

[Helios518]

So the only way Infinite Zamasu can defeat Geran, is if the latter doesn’t even have his guard up? That’s not really impressive considering a Freeza soldier laser almost killed Goku.

Christ... You are completely missing the point again.

How hard is to understand that Infinite Zamasu can pretty much attack Jiren for all eternity? Jiren can't endure those attacks for ever, he doesn't have infinite stamina.

Apologies, there's some miscommunication here; mainly caused by me. I was arguing whether or not, Infinite Zamasu is stronger than Geran. Which he's not as far as the show is concern. If your talking about a battle of attrition, Zamasu will most definitely win.

1) Pretty much. Gowasu even stated that Fused Zamasu had endless strength, and Fused Zamasu himself says that his new form has limitless potential. Indeed, even Goku Black before fusing had expanded his power beyond his own divine comprehension.

2) Also, your counter-argument for 'Zamasu became the Universe' boils down to 'They didn't show Zamasu take over other planets'. Except they did. What do you think Infinite Zamasu was doing in this scene?

[spoiler][/spoiler]

1) That's called a hyperbole, but if you want to believe that then, FT Arc Blue Vegetto has endless strength as he was equals with Corrupt Zamasu, who surpassed normal Merged Zamasu. SSJBE Vegeta has infinite power; in who Geran outright dominates.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

EP109 aka "less than hint of his power" suppressed Geran has infinite power as he shook an infinite realm.

Also potential isn't relevant when it isn't actualized. Also I'm sure even Saiyans have infinite potential.

2) Zamasu only has absorb Earth in that scene, and judging from how big/close Earth is in that scene, I'd be surprised if it has reached the Moon.

[SupremeKai25]

1) That's called a hyperbole

Then so was Shin's statement that Jiren is 'beyond anyone they've ever battled before'.

2) Zamasu only has absorb Earth in that scene

How you can claim this with certainty is beyond me.

I'd be surprised if it has reached the Moon.

So it travelled to an alternate timeline but it couldn't reach the Moon, ok.