"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[ArchedThunder]

Which is why the entire point of killing him is pointless. It does nothing and they should all know that. It's not exactly hard to figure out it does nothing and has no effect on the future. Not to mention all the other problems with Zamasu's desires. Beerus instead of just taking out the real problem, just wastes a bunch of time. Instead of just getting answers himself by heading to the future, and beating it out of them. But that would break the entire plot, which is another issue Super has.

Like I said, Beerus probably doesn't know that there is a paradox going on, and even if he does he probably thinks he can stop it (and maybe this is entirely possible in the Dragon Ball universe) by killing Zamasu first, but he doesn't know that Zamasu is immortal.

Why would Beerus think this if he and Whis already know how time lines are supposes to work. This only works if he thinks Zamasu is jumping back and forth which also wouldn't make sense. It is a paradox that breaks established time travel rules used for world building so yes it does need to be explainedif it suddenly doesn't operate the way we were told in the fictional universe it created. Otherwise it's called literally pulling something out your @$$ for the sake of plot.

Anyway I will wait until jumping to conclusions but whatever the conclusion it is will be pretty good or a nasty plot hole.

You're still thinking of the rules of Bulma's Time Machine, the Time Rings function differently. And just because they know how timelines work they might not know that a paradox is happening, hell they might not even know that a paradox is possible, they didn't think traveling to the past was possible. Either way, Beerus probably thinks he can just correct it by killing Zamasu, but Zamasu is already immortal so the paradox goes on.

[alakazam^]

I was thinking about the different timelines' Gods and tried to make sense of it all.

I think there's no plothole if we assume that every timeline is specific to its Universe. This would mean that Universe 7 has 4 timelines because of Trunks and Cell but the other Universes only have 1. What would result from this is that every Kaioushin gets a green Time Ring regardless them being connected to their Universe or nor, for accessability purposes if it needs be. This would explain Trunks' Kaioushin/Beers but no other Zamasus to worry about. There were 4 green rings if I'm not mistaken, weren't there?

Another theory I have for the Trunks arc, which would kinda destroy the above one, is based on Gowasu saying that a new green ring appeared "recently". This could mean that Trunks splitted the timeline again when he travelled back to get help. This, in turn, would mean that, had Trunks not travelled back, Zamasu would still get evil, meet Goku and Vegeta (either in Zen'ou's tournament or some other way) and hate Goku for the same reasons, probably would actually be promoted a Kaioushin, would still gather the Super Dragon Balls and wish for immortality and/or would create Black and travel to Trunks' future. Trunks, by travelling back, created a new timeline where things concerning Zamasu sped up so we end up with two Zamasus from post-Cell timeline, one a Kaioushin and one an apprentice.

What's clear is that we're missing some pieces of the puzzle and Black's identity helps filling some of those holes.

[dbzfan7]

Which is why the entire point of killing him is pointless. It does nothing and they should all know that. It's not exactly hard to figure out it does nothing and has no effect on the future. Not to mention all the other problems with Zamasu's desires. Beerus instead of just taking out the real problem, just wastes a bunch of time. Instead of just getting answers himself by heading to the future, and beating it out of them. But that would break the entire plot, which is another issue Super has.

Like I said, Beerus probably doesn't know that there is a paradox going on, and even if he does he probably thinks he can stop it (and maybe this is entirely possible in the Dragon Ball universe) by killing Zamasu first, but he doesn't know that Zamasu is immortal.

But they do know about time travel. They're very aware of the rings and how it works. Hell none of that traveling even matters when he literally could just go the future right away, and then kick the shit out of them himself. He doesn't need to prevent shit, he can end it. He's taking the most bizarre approach instead of just settling it himself, just so the plot doesn't fall apart. There's no real good reason to not just go fight Zamasu and Black himself when they're screwing up the time stream. Especially with how it could leave a poor impression with Zeno.

[HeroR]

And why should we assume that U7 was special with it five Kais?

As far as we can tell Universe 6 and 10 both only have one Kaioshin.

It is a time paradox. You kill Zamasu. Black never existed. Trunks never needed to come back. They never needed to kill Zamasu. Ergo time paradox. You get rid of the threat of the future in the past, and then the future threat never exists, therefore there was never a need to stop a future threat, which means the threat in the past was never stopped. It's a never ending circle. Which means there is literally no point to kill Zamasu whether he's immortal or not, as it does literally nothing. A time paradox prevents it from doing anything.

That's my point, I think it the whole point of this arc is that it IS a time paradox, and the point of a time paradox is that it just happens. Beerus likely won't know that it is a paradox when going to kill Zamasu.
Black attacks earth, Trunks tries to get help from the past, in investigating Goku inadvertently starts everything with Zamasu, Zamasu becomes evil and immortal, Beerus attempts to kill Zamasu and unknowingly fails, Zamasu travels to the future (and maybe creates Black) repeat.

That is because Buu wiped out the Kais in U7. Unless a similar massacre happened in U10, it's doubtful that Gawasu is the only Supreme Kai.

[ArchedThunder]

Which is why the entire point of killing him is pointless. It does nothing and they should all know that. It's not exactly hard to figure out it does nothing and has no effect on the future. Not to mention all the other problems with Zamasu's desires. Beerus instead of just taking out the real problem, just wastes a bunch of time. Instead of just getting answers himself by heading to the future, and beating it out of them. But that would break the entire plot, which is another issue Super has.

Like I said, Beerus probably doesn't know that there is a paradox going on, and even if he does he probably thinks he can stop it (and maybe this is entirely possible in the Dragon Ball universe) by killing Zamasu first, but he doesn't know that Zamasu is immortal.

But they do know about time travel. They're very aware of the rings and how it works. Hell none of that traveling even matters when he literally could just go the future right away, and then kick the shit out of them himself. He doesn't need to prevent shit, he can end it. He's taking the most bizarre approach instead of just settling it himself, just so the plot doesn't fall apart. There's no real good reason to not just go fight Zamasu and Black himself when they're screwing up the time stream. Especially with how it could leave a poor impression with Zeno.

They know about time travel and how it works with the time rings, but they didn't even think it was possible to travel to the past, so who's to say they don't know that paradoxes can exist. These events are likely going to happen while they wait for the fuel for the time machine anyways, so again, Beerus probably just thinks he can fix everything right now by killing Zamasu, plus he doesn't want to time travel because it's outlawed, maybe Zeno would kill him for it. I don't know why that doesn't make sense to you.

That is because Buu wiped out the Kais in U7. Unless a similar massacre happened in U10, it's doubtful that Gawasu is the only Supreme Kai.

Again, it's been a long time since Buu wiped them out, so why is there still only one? We only see one U6 Kaioshin, there may be more but we are only shown one, same goes for U10, and if Gowasu's death ends up killing the universe 10 God of Destruction then he was the only one. That's why until I'm shown that other universes have more than one Kaioshin I'm just going to assume they all have one.

[HeroR]

I was thinking about the different timelines' Gods and tried to make sense of it all.

I think there's no plothole if we assume that every timeline is specific to its Universe. This would mean that Universe 7 has 4 timelines because of Trunks and Cell but the other Universes only have 1. What would result from this is that every Kaioushin gets a green Time Ring regardless them being connected to their Universe or nor, for accessability purposes if it needs be. This would explain Trunks' Kaioushin/Beers but no other Zamasus to worry about. There were 4 green rings if I'm not mistaken, weren't there?

Another theory I have for the Trunks arc, which would kinda destroy the above one, is based on Gowasu saying that a new green ring appeared "recently". This could mean that Trunks splitted the timeline again when he travelled back to get help. This, in turn, would mean that, had Trunks not travelled back, Zamasu would still get evil, meet Goku and Vegeta (either in Zen'ou's tournament or some other way) and hate Goku for the same reasons, probably would actually be promoted a Kaioushin, would still gather the Super Dragon Balls and wish for immortality and/or would create Black and travel to Trunks' future. Trunks, by travelling back, created a new timeline where things concerning Zamasu sped up so we end up with two Zamasus from post-Cell timeline, one a Kaioushin and one an apprentice.

What's clear is that we're missing some pieces of the puzzle and Black's identity helps filling some of those holes.

There can't be one timeline for all universes, but four for U7. We see four green Time Rings in the box for U10. Also, why would Champa be in an 'alternative' timeline instead of the original if there is only one timeline for him?

[alakazam^]

But they do know about time travel. They're very aware of the rings and how it works. Hell none of that traveling even matters when he literally could just go the future right away, and then kick the shit out of them himself. He doesn't need to prevent shit, he can end it. He's taking the most bizarre approach instead of just settling it himself, just so the plot doesn't fall apart. There's no real good reason to not just go fight Zamasu and Black himself when they're screwing up the time stream. Especially with how it could leave a poor impression with Zeno.

He's not allowed to travel through time, he's not a Kaioushin.

[dbzfan7]

Like I said, Beerus probably doesn't know that there is a paradox going on, and even if he does he probably thinks he can stop it (and maybe this is entirely possible in the Dragon Ball universe) by killing Zamasu first, but he doesn't know that Zamasu is immortal.

But they do know about time travel. They're very aware of the rings and how it works. Hell none of that traveling even matters when he literally could just go the future right away, and then kick the shit out of them himself. He doesn't need to prevent shit, he can end it. He's taking the most bizarre approach instead of just settling it himself, just so the plot doesn't fall apart. There's no real good reason to not just go fight Zamasu and Black himself when they're screwing up the time stream. Especially with how it could leave a poor impression with Zeno.

They know about time travel and how it works with the time rings, but they didn't even think it was possible to travel to the past, so who's to say they don't know that paradoxes can exist. These events are likely going to happen while they wait for the fuel for the time machine anyways, so again, Beerus probably just thinks he can fix everything right now by killing Zamasu, plus he doesn't want to time travel because it's outlawed, maybe Zeno would kill him for it. I don't know why that doesn't make sense to you.

He doesn't want to, but everyone else can just keep on time traveling as much as needed. Where did that come from? I don't recall any of that. That sounds like a made up excuse to avoid the big problem of Beerus' superiority. He never made a claim he didn't want to. Whis is also very knowledgeable on how it all works, and I doubt he'd just draw a blank and not think of such a thing. Whis also literally explains about time travelling to the past, so he must know what he's talking about rather than just being unaware it's possible. All I'm hearing right now is a bunch of crack pot theories that apparently are supposed to make sense, and then am given the "We don't know everything" shtick. Either it doesn't make sense yet, or does it make sense and you stick by that.

He has no reason at all to not go to the future and get the direct answers himself. Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks failed so he has even more incentive now. He only doesn't because the plot would literally fall apart if he did such a thing. He already is breaking the rules as is.

But they do know about time travel. They're very aware of the rings and how it works. Hell none of that traveling even matters when he literally could just go the future right away, and then kick the shit out of them himself. He doesn't need to prevent shit, he can end it. He's taking the most bizarre approach instead of just settling it himself, just so the plot doesn't fall apart. There's no real good reason to not just go fight Zamasu and Black himself when they're screwing up the time stream. Especially with how it could leave a poor impression with Zeno.

He's not allowed to travel through time, he's not a Kaioushin.

Was that a rule? Cause that does explain why he doesn't. Even then they don't really have an issue sending anyone else so they're already breaking the rules as is. Then there's the whole paradox of how this plan could never work in any way, as well wanting to kill Goku, despite practically him having know known way to reach him since neither were aware of time machines.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

And why should we assume that U7 was special with it five Kais?

As far as we can tell Universe 6 and 10 both only have one Kaioshin.

It is a time paradox. You kill Zamasu. Black never existed. Trunks never needed to come back. They never needed to kill Zamasu. Ergo time paradox. You get rid of the threat of the future in the past, and then the future threat never exists, therefore there was never a need to stop a future threat, which means the threat in the past was never stopped. It's a never ending circle. Which means there is literally no point to kill Zamasu whether he's immortal or not, as it does literally nothing. A time paradox prevents it from doing anything.

That's my point, I think it the whole point of this arc is that it IS a time paradox, and the point of a time paradox is that it just happens. Beerus likely won't know that it is a paradox when going to kill Zamasu.
Black attacks earth, Trunks tries to get help from the past, in investigating Goku inadvertently starts everything with Zamasu, Zamasu becomes evil and immortal, Beerus attempts to kill Zamasu and unknowingly fails, Zamasu travels to the future (and maybe creates Black) repeat.

That is because Buu wiped out the Kais in U7. Unless a similar massacre happened in U10, it's doubtful that Gawasu is the only Supreme Kai.

U10 is not modelled after U7 remember, there probably will be discrepancies, hell for all we know a G.o.D might not even exist in U10 anyway.

[HeroR]

Like I said, Beerus probably doesn't know that there is a paradox going on, and even if he does he probably thinks he can stop it (and maybe this is entirely possible in the Dragon Ball universe) by killing Zamasu first, but he doesn't know that Zamasu is immortal.

But they do know about time travel. They're very aware of the rings and how it works. Hell none of that traveling even matters when he literally could just go the future right away, and then kick the shit out of them himself. He doesn't need to prevent shit, he can end it. He's taking the most bizarre approach instead of just settling it himself, just so the plot doesn't fall apart. There's no real good reason to not just go fight Zamasu and Black himself when they're screwing up the time stream. Especially with how it could leave a poor impression with Zeno.

They know about time travel and how it works with the time rings, but they didn't even think it was possible to travel to the past, so who's to say they don't know that paradoxes can exist. These events are likely going to happen while they wait for the fuel for the time machine anyways, so again, Beerus probably just thinks he can fix everything right now by killing Zamasu, plus he doesn't want to time travel because it's outlawed, maybe Zeno would kill him for it. I don't know why that doesn't make sense to you.

That is because Buu wiped out the Kais in U7. Unless a similar massacre happened in U10, it's doubtful that Gawasu is the only Supreme Kai.

Again, it's been a long time since Buu wiped them out, so why is there still only one? We only see one U6 Kaioshin, there may be more but we are only shown one, same goes for U10, and if Gowasu's death ends up killing the universe 10 God of Destruction then he was the only one. That's why until I'm shown that other universes have more than one Kaioshin I'm just going to assume they all have one.

It really doesn't matter why there is only one Supreme Kai in U7 after so long. The point is that there were five and Buu wiped them out. Unless U10 went through a Buu situation, it's a jump to assume that Gawasu is the only Supreme Kai.

[HeroR]

As far as we can tell Universe 6 and 10 both only have one Kaioshin.

That's my point, I think it the whole point of this arc is that it IS a time paradox, and the point of a time paradox is that it just happens. Beerus likely won't know that it is a paradox when going to kill Zamasu.
Black attacks earth, Trunks tries to get help from the past, in investigating Goku inadvertently starts everything with Zamasu, Zamasu becomes evil and immortal, Beerus attempts to kill Zamasu and unknowingly fails, Zamasu travels to the future (and maybe creates Black) repeat.

That is because Buu wiped out the Kais in U7. Unless a similar massacre happened in U10, it's doubtful that Gawasu is the only Supreme Kai.

U10 is not modelled after U7 remember, there probably will be discrepancies, hell for all we know a G.o.D might not even exist in U10 anyway.

All universes have Gods of Destruction. Just as ever universe has Supreme Kais. Why would U10 only have Gods of Creation.

[TheMikado]

Because it doesn't look like Universe 10 God of Destruction exists in either timeline right now

[HeroR]

Because it doesn't look like Universe 10 God of Destruction exists in either timeline right now

Lack of evidence isn't evidences. Especially when it was explicitly said that all universes have Gods of Destruction.

[dbzfan7]

I don't even see the problem with there being possible issues and things not making sense yet, as we don't know everything just yet. All these questions can very well be answered later. Though Whis' original little spiel on time travel was just plain wrong in regards to Trunks as he doesn't cause any problems what so ever, unless Xenoverse counts where too many timelines cause a big problem.

[Anime Kitten]

This isn't technically mini-modding since it's not against the rules, but could you please calm down with the chain-quoting? It's really, really stretching out the pages and can give people notifications when you're not directly responding to them.

[dbzfan7]

This isn't technically mini-modding since it's not against the rules, but could you please calm down with the chain-quoting? It's really, really stretching out the pages and can give people notifications when you're not directly responding to them.

I think I'll stop with the whole Paradox discussion now. It's a really tough thing to talk about when we're missing some info. So the discussion isn't really going much else. It was fun, but yeah I think I'm ready to move on and see how things play out. Props to Alakazam for reminding me of that Kaioshin thing.

[ArchedThunder]

He doesn't want to, but everyone else can just keep on time traveling as much as needed. Where did that come from? I don't recall any of that. That sounds like a made up excuse to avoid the big problem of Beerus' superiority. He never made a claim he didn't want to. Whis is also very knowledgeable on how it all works, and I doubt he'd just draw a blank and not think of such a thing. Whis also literally explains about time travelling to the past, so he must know what he's talking about rather than just being unaware it's possible. All I'm hearing right now is a bunch of crack pot theories that apparently are supposed to make sense, and then am given the "We don't know everything" shtick. Either it doesn't make sense yet, or does it make sense and you stick by that.

He has no reason at all to not go to the future and get the direct answers himself. Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks failed so he has even more incentive now. He only doesn't because the plot would literally fall apart if he did such a thing. He already is breaking the rules as is.
Was that a rule? Cause that does explain why he doesn't. Even then they don't really have an issue sending anyone else so they're already breaking the rules as is. Then there's the whole paradox of how this plan could never work in any way, as well wanting to kill Goku, despite practically him having know known way to reach him since neither were aware of time machines.

It was explicitly stated that only Kaioshin are allowed to time travel, and then only to the future. Beerus says he doesn't want anything to do with the time travel shenanigans but is intrigued when he senses Black's Ki. Beerus is focused on his time because that is all he is allowed to be in.
Whis giving an explanation of time travel to the past doesn't mean he knew it was possible, there are plenty of scientists in real life to theorize about time travel, what matters is that Whis himself said he didn't think it was possible.
Beerus mentions destroying Earth because they are time traveling but doesn't after getting food. Beerus is turning a blind eye to their time traveling because he's basically friends with them.
And what do you mean a plan that could never work?

[Hellspawn28]

I want to see the Universe 10 God of Destruction. It would be cool that it's a different animal and not another cat. Maybe each GOD in each universe can be based on Chinese Zodiacs. I imagine the U10 GOD being a Ox or Goat.

[dbzfan7]

He doesn't want to, but everyone else can just keep on time traveling as much as needed. Where did that come from? I don't recall any of that. That sounds like a made up excuse to avoid the big problem of Beerus' superiority. He never made a claim he didn't want to. Whis is also very knowledgeable on how it all works, and I doubt he'd just draw a blank and not think of such a thing. Whis also literally explains about time travelling to the past, so he must know what he's talking about rather than just being unaware it's possible. All I'm hearing right now is a bunch of crack pot theories that apparently are supposed to make sense, and then am given the "We don't know everything" shtick. Either it doesn't make sense yet, or does it make sense and you stick by that.

He has no reason at all to not go to the future and get the direct answers himself. Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks failed so he has even more incentive now. He only doesn't because the plot would literally fall apart if he did such a thing. He already is breaking the rules as is.
Was that a rule? Cause that does explain why he doesn't. Even then they don't really have an issue sending anyone else so they're already breaking the rules as is. Then there's the whole paradox of how this plan could never work in any way, as well wanting to kill Goku, despite practically him having know known way to reach him since neither were aware of time machines.

It was explicitly stated that only Kaioshin are allowed to time travel, and then only to the future. Beerus says he doesn't want anything to do with the time travel shenanigans but is intrigued when he senses Black's Ki. Beerus is focused on his time because that is all he is allowed to be in.
Whis's giving an explanation of time travel to the past doesn't mean he knew it was possible, there are plenty of scientists in real life to theorize about time travel, what matters is that Whis himself said he didn't think it was possible.
He mentions destroying Earth because they are time traveling but doesn't after getting food. Beerus is turning a blind eye to their time traveling because he's basically friends with them.
And what do you mean a plan that could never work?

I don't really see how letting the others go to the future is any less bad then them going. When there's no real danger of future travel when compared to the past. I recall them mentioning they are limited, but not really restricted to going. Only Kaioshin can go and not gods, but mortals, eh sure they can go as much as needed to fix this problem. But I concede they do have some explanation. The mortals aren't allowed in the future, and they said fuck it. So really they're already breaking the rules as is.

Whis shouldn't have a clue if he didn't think it was possible, and if he's aware of that works, there is nothing to say he wouldn't know about paradox theory either. And the whole problem of the plan never working is paradox theory literally makes the plan a waste of time. So it becomes a very stupid plan that can never work. They can't accomplish shit, as it in the end won't affect anything until the future Zamasu and Black are dealt with. Time paradox protects them so they're not stopping them in any shape or form.

[ekrolo2]

I don't sound so crazy for disliking the Cell Saga and its shite time travel now do I?