Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Nevaeh]

Her supposedly ssj2 is beyond her berserk form, that is very much a fact as it was stated in the show. I'm sure that everyone (its been many months now) is aware that goku was stupidly suppressed agains berserk form kale.

Her feats say otherwise tho. Like making Jiren twitch. The only people to do that were Blue Goku and SSJ Kefla while fighting

Statement wise: SSJ2 Kale > Berserk
Feat wise: Berserk > SSJ2 Kale

In the same episode Vegeta said he was the strongest saiyan in the tourney and nobody ever contradicts him. That means Blue Vegeta > UI Goku, right?

“SS2” kale > Berserker Kale, theres no arguing there, especially when the show explicitely states it, and she holds her own against a somewhat tired SSG Goku. Berserk has no feats other than overcoming an IMMENSELY suppressed ssb goku, and we know how much he can suppressed himself (ssb vs krillin)

Also, vegeta has always called himself the #1 saiyan, after all, he is the prince of them (technically the king).

Feats arent always > statements. If thats the case, ssg goku from the BoG arc would be above anything prior to the ToP arc. Or everyone from GT would be below Saiyan saga characters.

It can be argue seeing as the material itself contradicts it

Going by ur logic, UI Goku being stronger than Blue Vegeta can't be argued because it was never stated in the show

[ZombieVito]

I thought Dyspo was beating Frieza in the end? That's why he went Golden.

Freeza only went Golden when Dyspo used his full speed (Excluding his Blue aura technique).

Every time they went head on before that he got trashed by Freeza in terms of power. Freeza was even playing with him.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Her feats say otherwise tho. Like making Jiren twitch. The only people to do that were Blue Goku and SSJ Kefla while fighting

Statement wise: SSJ2 Kale > Berserk
Feat wise: Berserk > SSJ2 Kale

In the same episode Vegeta said he was the strongest saiyan in the tourney and nobody ever contradicts him. That means Blue Vegeta > UI Goku, right?

“SS2” kale > Berserker Kale, theres no arguing there, especially when the show explicitely states it, and she holds her own against a somewhat tired SSG Goku. Berserk has no feats other than overcoming an IMMENSELY suppressed ssb goku, and we know how much he can suppressed himself (ssb vs krillin)

Also, vegeta has always called himself the #1 saiyan, after all, he is the prince of them (technically the king).

Feats arent always > statements. If thats the case, ssg goku from the BoG arc would be above anything prior to the ToP arc. Or everyone from GT would be below Saiyan saga characters.

It can be argue seeing as the material itself contradicts it

Going by ur logic, UI Goku being stronger than Blue Vegeta can't be argued because it was never stated in the show

The material does not contradict at all that kales “ssj2” form is beyond her ssberserk form. It quite re enforces it, she was able to somewhat keep up with a somewhat tired ssg goku, while caulifla couldnt even intervene in that fight as she kept getting one shotted.

I have no idea where you get that it contradicts it, unless you actually believe berserker kale is close to blue in power, which isnt the case. Even kafla (whose base is beyond anything kale has) needs to go ssj to deal with ssb levels of power.

And what is that bad logic about vegeta > UI goku? Vegeta is often calling himself the strongest saiyan. Thats normal for him.

[ankokudaishogun]

I'm just going to guess Kale's Berserker form is extremely similar to SS Grade-3. though she loses self-control and ki control instead of just speed.

Her SS2 form has her keep both Ki Control and Self-Control... which works AGAINST her because she's not a really aggressive person and therefore doesn't go Full-Out.

Basically, SS2 Kale is less IMPRESSIVE than Berserker Kale, but not necessarily weaker.

[PFM18]

I'm sure that everyone (its been many months now) is aware that goku was stupidly suppressed agains berserk form kale.

Problem is everyone isnt aware of that no matter how obvious the show tries to make it

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Since it'll be awhile before we can argue and nitpick fresh new DB content, let's talk about some recently concluded content instead!

There's been some debate about Jiren's power in his fight with Ultra Instinct Goku. I fall in the camp that his full power was used in the beginning of the fight, with him awakening hidden depths that he ordinarily doesn't have access to; basically, he broke his limits and went past a level of power that even a Hakaishin cannot beat.

However, others believe that this hidden power being awakened was indeed Jiren's spoken-of power that even a Hakaishin cannot defeat, and that he never used anything close to it until that moment where he remembered his past trauma as he was cornered by Goku.

I'd like to know what the original Japanese context has to say on the matter, as Crunchyroll subs can make things a bit unclear at times for the sake of creating readable subtitles for English-reading viewers. Does it merely call this hidden power Jiren's full power, or does it imply that this is something beyond his normal limits, or perhaps even neither of the two camps?

[Kenneth La Torre]

Since it'll be awhile before we can argue and nitpick fresh new DB content, let's talk about some recently concluded content instead!

There's been some debate about Jiren's power in his fight with Ultra Instinct Goku. I fall in the camp that his full power was used in the beginning of the fight, with him awakening hidden depths that he ordinarily doesn't have access to; basically, he broke his limits and went past a level of power that even a Hakaishin cannot beat.

However, others believe that this hidden power being awakened was indeed Jiren's spoken-of power that even a Hakaishin cannot defeat, and that he never used anything close to it until that moment where he remembered his past trauma as he was cornered by Goku.

I'd like to know what the original Japanese context has to say on the matter, as Crunchyroll subs can make things a bit unclear at times for the sake of creating readable subtitles for English-reading viewers. Does it merely call this hidden power Jiren's full power, or does it imply that this is something beyond his normal limits, or perhaps even neither of the two camps?

I can tell you this much, full power is never daid in context of his power up, but hidden/dormant power is used. Its something used in the same regards to when goku and vegeta first ascended to UI omen/ SSB evo. So who knows. But before jirens power up, universe 11s kai clearly said that UI gokus capabilities Far surpasses jiren, and then a couple seconds later jiren gets PTSD and goes “UI”

[Miracles]

You're mixing raw power and power arsenal. Dyspo didn't counter Hit with his raw power, he did it with used a his hearing. Also, Dyspo got manhandled when he couldn't counter Time-Skip which was how the fight should've been from the start if Dyspo didn't have intel and/or the hearing. If Dyspo could defeat Hit with raw power, then he wouldn't need to use his hearing and/or the intel.

No, Dyspo clearly stated whenever people make a move they make noise, he listened for that. It was the same with Hit's "special ability" he stated. It was Dyspo paying attention to detail with his ears which is part of his RAW power arsenal to capitalize on Hit's weakness. Super Hearing is a power tool. Hit was just outclassed, couldn't even see Dyspo's movements. You are clearly missing the point. Dyspo is stronger than Hit, he held back his "Hyper speed mode," Hit doesn't stand a chance against base Toppo either.

[Helios518]

You're mixing raw power and power arsenal. Dyspo didn't counter Hit with his raw power, he did it with used a his hearing. Also, Dyspo got manhandled when he couldn't counter Time-Skip which was how the fight should've been from the start if Dyspo didn't have intel and/or the hearing. If Dyspo could defeat Hit with raw power, then he wouldn't need to use his hearing and/or the intel.

No, Dyspo clearly stated whenever people make a move they make noise, he listened for that. It was the same with Hit's "special ability" he stated. It was Dyspo paying attention to detail with his ears which is part of his RAW power arsenal to capitalize on Hit's weakness. Super Hearing is a power tool. Hit was just outclassed, couldn't even see Dyspo's movements. You are clearly missing the point. Dyspo is stronger than Hit, he held back his "Hyper speed mode," Hit doesn't stand a chance against base Toppo either.

Time stamp? He only listened out because he knew Hit's Time-Skip, he doesn't usually listened out for their movement normally. Again, if Dyspo didn't even know about TIme-Skip then he would've got stomped just like how Vegeta did, but instead he got second-hand knowledge and did much better like how Goku did. Are you going to say that Goku is stronger than Vegeta as well?

[Miracles]

Time stamp? He only listened out because he knew Hit's Time-Skip, he doesn't usually listened out for their movement normally. Again, if Dyspo didn't even know about TIme-Skip then he would've got stomped just like how Vegeta did, but instead he got second-hand knowledge and did much better like how Goku did. Are you going to say that Goku is stronger than Vegeta as well?

You're using headcanon again. Dyspo clearly listening is in general not due to intel...
Dyspo: "Whenever someone makes an action, their bodies make noise. Especially with special abilities."

[Kenneth La Torre]

So i was seeing geekdoms new video (the dude is just milking it at this point) about beerus vs MUI goku, and I've been wondering if the manga will clear all that suff for us, toyotaro had bo problem outright stating that vegito blue is around beerus level, so its probable that an outright statement will be made.

[Helios518]

Time stamp? He only listened out because he knew Hit's Time-Skip, he doesn't usually listened out for their movement normally. Again, if Dyspo didn't even know about TIme-Skip then he would've got stomped just like how Vegeta did, but instead he got second-hand knowledge and did much better like how Goku did. Are you going to say that Goku is stronger than Vegeta as well?

You're using headcanon again. Dyspo clearly listening is in general...
Dyspo: "Whenever someone makes an action, their bodies make noise. Especially with special abilities."

That's not head-canon. There's no way Dyspo could know of Time-Skip without having any prior knowledge or info on it.

[Miracles]

That's not head-canon. There's no way Dyspo could know of Time-Skip without having any prior knowledge or info on it.

No where was it mentioned that Dyspo had Intel on it. Therefore you are firing the headcanon.
Dyspo clearly states that EVERYBODY makes noise when acting especially with special abilities like Hit's.
He blitzed Goku the same way before he used Instantaneous Movement. Are you gonna say he had intel on Goku too.

[Helios518]

That's not head-canon. There's no way Dyspo could know of Time-Skip without having any prior knowledge or info on it.

No where was it mentioned that Dyspo had Intel on it. Therefore you are firing the headcanon.
Dyspo clearly states that EVERYBODY makes noise when acting especially with special abilities like Hit's.
He blitzed Goku the same way before he used Instantaneous Movement. Are you gonna say he had intel on Goku too.

He outright mentioned Time-Skip by name prior to Hit even mentioning it. He has prior knowledge on the Time-Skip, which he used to counter it just like Goku did and not get stomped like Vegeta did. It doesn't matter how Dyspo knows about it, but the fact he knows about prior is what matters.

[Miracles]

That's not head-canon. There's no way Dyspo could know of Time-Skip without having any prior knowledge or info on it.

No where was it mentioned that Dyspo had Intel on it. Therefore you are firing the headcanon.
Dyspo clearly states that EVERYBODY makes noise when acting especially with special abilities like Hit's.
He blitzed Goku the same way before he used Instantaneous Movement. Are you gonna say he had intel on Goku too.

He outright mentioned Time-Skip by name prior to Hit even mentioning it. He has prior knowledge on the Time-Skip, which he used to counter it just like Goku did and not get stomped like Vegeta did. It doesn't matter how Dyspo knows about it, but the fact he knows about prior is what matters.

More headcanon. Mentioning it doesn't equal knowledge of it's mechanics.
Hence why Dyspo gave his explanation about hearing everyone making noises before they moved.

[Helios518]

No where was it mentioned that Dyspo had Intel on it. Therefore you are firing the headcanon.
Dyspo clearly states that EVERYBODY makes noise when acting especially with special abilities like Hit's.
He blitzed Goku the same way before he used Instantaneous Movement. Are you gonna say he had intel on Goku too.

He outright mentioned Time-Skip by name prior to Hit even mentioning it. He has prior knowledge on the Time-Skip, which he used to counter it just like Goku did and not get stomped like Vegeta did. It doesn't matter how Dyspo knows about it, but the fact he knows about prior is what matters.

More headcanon. Mentioning it doesn't equal knowledge of it's mechanics.
Hence why Dyspo gave his explanation about hearing everyone making noises before they moved.

So Dyspo is going to know the name for Time-Skip and that Hit has it, but not now it's mechanics? Now, you're just splitting hairs. Though let's just agree to disagree because this is clearly going nowhere.

[Miracles]

He outright mentioned Time-Skip by name prior to Hit even mentioning it. He has prior knowledge on the Time-Skip, which he used to counter it just like Goku did and not get stomped like Vegeta did. It doesn't matter how Dyspo knows about it, but the fact he knows about prior is what matters.

More headcanon. Mentioning it doesn't equal knowledge of it's mechanics.
Hence why Dyspo gave his explanation about hearing everyone making noises before they moved.

So Dyspo is going to know the name for Time-Skip and that Hit has it, but not now it's mechanics? Now, you're just splitting hairs. Though let's just agree to disagree because this is clearly going nowhere.

The canon story took us somewhere you just don't want to follow. Dyspo explained WHY he as able to combat Timeskip and it was not because he had info on it but due to the fact that he said everyone [not just Hit's time skip] makes noise before they move. Dyspo did the same thing to Goku when he was about to use Instantaneous Movement. He didn't have any Intel on Goku either yet he was able to punch him before he used IT, same way he did Hit. No where was it stated that Dyspo got Intel, He simply fought Hit like he does everybody else, blitzing them before they can use moves. But we can just leave it be.

[Bullza]

Considering how strong Android 17 got then how strong do you think Android 18 is?

Back in the Resurrection F saga she did say she was stronger than "you guys" though I don't know if she'd be referring to Gohan and Piccolo.

But then when they were picking their team for the Universe 6 Tournament, Android 18 wasn't mentioned.

[Rally 07]

Considering how strong Android 17 got then how strong do you think Android 18 is?

While that's up for debate. Because Artificial Human No.18 doesn't really having much showings or statements concerning her power to be perfectly honest. I mean she did defeat Ribrianne, and Ribrianne was able to keep up with a suppressed Base form Gokou; then earlier in Super episode 109 Ribrianne transformed into Super Ribrianne pushing Base form Gokou to use more power. And we already know how powerful Gokou is in his Base form. And it could possibly make sense how Artificial Human No.18 could've probably gotten near that level. Considering she had maybe a good several months to train with Kururin as Buruma didn't show any signs of pregnancy between Super episodes 75, 76, and 77. So there could've been a several month timeskip which is a good amount of time to train and gain some power from it just as Kururin did. Also there is the fact that Toriyama in a interview stated the Artificial Humans could train as they have a human base. Along with Toriyama or Toei stating Artificial Human No.17 possesses enormous potential and honestly the same could apply for his twin sister, although that's just my own headcanon.
So yeah, this would be a good subject to talk about. Maybe answer some questions concerning Artificial Human No.18's power and potential overall I guess.

[PFM18]

Considering how strong Android 17 got then how strong do you think Android 18 is?

Back in the Resurrection F saga she did say she was stronger than "you guys" though I don't know if she'd be referring to Gohan and Piccolo.

But then when they were picking their team for the Universe 6 Tournament, Android 18 wasn't mentioned.

She is stronger than Krillin, Tenshinhan, Roshi, and well everybody who fought the Freeza soldiers except for Gohan and Piccolo. She is most definitely not anywhere close to 17 as he has been training regularly for the past 13 years