The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[RandomGuy96]

they couldn't sense beerus,

Yet they knew he was stronger than Buu, and attacked him anyway. For everyone but Gohan, that was a death sentence.

and why are you forgetting the "BASE" part. He thought that super buu was faking the tanks when he was in base.

He thinks that for about five seconds after misreading Buu's initial power. This doesn't somehow translate to "Gotenks can't actually sense ki".

Also, if buu was even comparable to First form freeza, then why they don't even try to wake him up?

They tried that. It didn't work.

Super, Episode 21, Minute: 3
Kuririn: “Goku and Vegeta aren't here yet? Well, I guess that's all right, we've got Boo, and...Huh? Where's Boo?”
Gohan: “You see... Apparently, once he falls asleep, he won't wake up for some time…Even if you shake, hit, or tickle him, nothing works...”

Note also that Krillin outright says that, even though Goku and Vegeta are gone, things will be fine as long as they have Buu. Unless Freeza was suppressing his power then (extremely doubtful; he had no reason to do so, Gohan states that he can't handle this Freeza shortly after this scene, and at the end of the last episode Tenshinhan commented on how enormous Freeza's ki was as he was feeling it from space), that pretty much confirms that Buu is superior to at least 1st form Freeza.

EDIT: Another note. In that same scene, Bulma needs to be told that Freeza has even gotten stronger at all, and also has to be told that Gohan can't kick his ass. You shouldn't really trust anything she says related to power.

[Polyphase Avatron]

How about Magetta vs SSJ Cabba (no insults allowed)?

[DanielSSJ]

How about Magetta vs SSJ Cabba (no insults allowed)?

If Vegeta, who has been a Super Saiyan for decades, had so much trouble against him, I doubt Cabba, who would still be getting used to his Super Saiyan powers, would be able to win.

[Noah]

New matches:

- Botamo vs. Janemba (first form)

- FP SSJ Cabba vs. Zangya

- Frost vs. Coola

- Magetta vs. Bojack

[Bansho64]

New matches:

- Botamo vs. Janemba (first form)

- FP SSJ Cabba vs. Zangya

- Frost vs. Coola

- Magetta vs. Bojack

Janemba wrecks. Zangya smashes. Frost destroys. Magetta annihilates.

[apex_pretador]

New matches:

- Botamo vs. Janemba (first form)

- FP SSJ Cabba vs. Zangya

- Frost vs. Coola

- Magetta vs. Bojack

- Botamo will not be hurt by janemba, and janemba will not get hit.

- Base Cabba one-shots

- First form frost one-shots any version of cooler.

- Magatta stomps, probably one-shots

[DanielSSJ]

New matches:

- Botamo vs. Janemba (first form)

- FP SSJ Cabba vs. Zangya

- Frost vs. Coola

- Magetta vs. Bojack

- Uhhhhhh....
- Cabba's around the same level of strength as Vegeta in equal forms. Base Cabba could probably win without too much trouble.
- Frost is much, MUCH stronger. But I must ask you, who is Cooler?
- If Magetta was able to give SS Vegeta so much trouble, Bojack is dust in the wind.

[Noah]

Frost is much, MUCH stronger. But I must ask you, who is Cooler?

Well, people still argue about two Bases Theory, that either Frost is duper strong as a God-tier or he is either somewhat stronger than Namek Arc Freeza.

[RandomGuy96]

Frost is much, MUCH stronger. But I must ask you, who is Cooler?

Well, people still argue about two Bases Theory, that either Frost is duper strong as a God-tier or he is either somewhat stronger than Namek Arc Freeza.

>Barely above Namek Arc Freeza
>Completely outclassed post-Buu arc Piccolo even when exhausted and drained

[DanielSSJ]

Well, people still argue about two Bases Theory, that either Frost is duper strong as a God-tier or he is either somewhat stronger than Namek Arc Freeza.

Well he has to be stronger than Namek-arc Freeza if Goku thought that Piccolo wouldn't be able to win. If going by the "two bases" hypothesis, I'd still have him at least on par with Super Perfect Cell.

[supercat]

Why are people putting Frost rank below Buu? Goku had to go SSj to fight him and Goku is way stronger than he was in the Buu saga. Goku has the god powers absorb inside him now which makes his normal SSj form way above SSj3. Frost could beat any form of Majin Buu. His 4th form could easily kill Buuhan in one blast.

I see it as Buu fans going above and beyond to keep their favorite villain relevant while cramming anyone else who hypothetically towers over said fighter into some watered down scale.

It's just funny because Buu was already considered an irrelevant fodder when he got pounded by Beerus. Also, three Buu-tier fighters, namely Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, and SSJ3 Goku going down as quickly as they did should be enough indication that anything considered awe-inspiring by Buu arc standards is merely old news at this point.

Frost could be anywhere from high SSJ3-tier to a few notches stronger than SSJ Vegetto in my opinion.

As for Frieza, I can't envision any form of Buu (excluding Buuhan and possibly Buutenks) being able to tangle with his First Form let alone his Final Form. I always take anything Gotenks has to say with a grain of salt.

When all is said and done, I still adhere to Piccolo > SSJ3 at the very least.

[RandomGuy96]

As for Frieza, I can't envision any form of Buu (excluding Buuhan and possibly Buutenks) being able to tangle with his First Form let alone his Final Form. I always take anything Gotenks has to say with a grain of salt.

Krillin explicitly stated that 1st form Freeza wouldn't be a problem as long as they had Mr. Buu. Your power inflation of a character who did nothing except beat up a weakened SS Gohan and Piccolo doesn't seem to be based on anything.

I still adhere to Piccolo > SSJ3

Episode 30 pretty clearly shows that he's still a good margin below Mr. Buu.

[supercat]

As for Frieza, I can't envision any form of Buu (excluding Buuhan and possibly Buutenks) being able to tangle with his First Form let alone his Final Form. I always take anything Gotenks has to say with a grain of salt.

Krillin explicitly stated that 1st form Freeza wouldn't be a problem as long as they had Mr. Buu. Your power inflation of a character who did nothing except beat up a weakened SS Gohan and Piccolo doesn't seem to be based on anything.

I still adhere to Piccolo > SSJ3

Episode 30 pretty clearly shows that he's still a good margin below Mr. Buu.

How would Krillin even know the full extent of First Form Frieza's power? In any case, he had quite a bit of confidence in Gohan and we all know how that ended.

And you lowballing a character based on one vague statement isn't really an evidence based conclusion. Also, where's the proof that Gohan got as weak as some of you like to claim? While it is quite plausible that he went down a few notches, I honestly doubt it's as bad as some like to believe.

How were Goku and Vegeta even supposed to know the pinnacle of Piccolo's progression?

[RandomGuy96]

As for Frieza, I can't envision any form of Buu (excluding Buuhan and possibly Buutenks) being able to tangle with his First Form let alone his Final Form. I always take anything Gotenks has to say with a grain of salt.

Krillin explicitly stated that 1st form Freeza wouldn't be a problem as long as they had Mr. Buu. Your power inflation of a character who did nothing except beat up a weakened SS Gohan and Piccolo doesn't seem to be based on anything.

I still adhere to Piccolo > SSJ3

Episode 30 pretty clearly shows that he's still a good margin below Mr. Buu.

How would Krillin even know the full extent of First Form Frieza's power? In any case, he had quite a bit of confidence in Gohan and we all know how that ended.

And you lowballing a character based on one vague statement isn't really an evidence based conclusion. Also, where's the proof that Gohan got as weak as some of you like to claim? While it is quite plausible that he went down a few notches, I honestly doubt it's as bad as some like to believe.

How were Goku and Vegeta even supposed to know the pinnacle of Piccolo's progression?

How could he not? Freeza wasn't hiding it, they could sense how enormous it was from space. And Bulma is the one who was confident in Gohan, not Krillin. How about you actually prove that Freeza was hiding his true power for no reason then?

It's not a vague statement, it's actually rather concrete and explicit, with nothing contradicting it. I dont know how you can claim to be working on a logic based conclusion when ignoring two clear power statements that put SS Gotenks and Mr. Buu above Freeza's 1st form. Nobody's lowballing Gohan either. They're just taking the series at face value: Super Saiyan Gohan is as strong as Super Saiyan Gohan. He's not some weird hybrid of SS and Ultimate that was never implied to exist anywhere in any official capacity.

Because he was training when they found him? And at no point do they comment that he's many times stronger than they thought he was going to be? Honestly, you're just making stuff up at this point.

[ZombieVito]

How could he not? Freeza wasn't hiding it, they could sense how enormous it was from space. And Bulma is the one who was confident in Gohan, not Krillin.

It's not a vague statement, it's actually rather concrete and explicit, with nothing contradicting it. I dont know how you can claim to be working on a logic based conclusion when ignoring two clear power statements that put SS Gotenks and Mr. Buu above Freeza's 1st form. Nobody's lowballing Gohan either. They're just taking the series at face value: Super Saiyan Gohan is as strong as Super Saiyan Gohan. He's not some weird hybrid of SS and Ultimate that was never implied to exist anywhere in any official capacity.

Because he was training when they found him? And at no point do they comment that he's many times stronger than they thought he was going to be? Honestly, you're just making stuff up at this point.

Gohan also never says he is weaker. The only comment he made is "I can't use my full power". This is a strong implication that he just lost his ultimate form and regressed to his Z sword self.

Speaking about Piccolo, he was training with Gohan and they seemed to be going all out. In Gohan's case, he was going all out in base.

[Bansho64]

Angry Saiyan Arc Gohan (After Piccolo's Death) vs Jaco

[RandomGuy96]

How could he not? Freeza wasn't hiding it, they could sense how enormous it was from space. And Bulma is the one who was confident in Gohan, not Krillin.

It's not a vague statement, it's actually rather concrete and explicit, with nothing contradicting it. I dont know how you can claim to be working on a logic based conclusion when ignoring two clear power statements that put SS Gotenks and Mr. Buu above Freeza's 1st form. Nobody's lowballing Gohan either. They're just taking the series at face value: Super Saiyan Gohan is as strong as Super Saiyan Gohan. He's not some weird hybrid of SS and Ultimate that was never implied to exist anywhere in any official capacity.

Because he was training when they found him? And at no point do they comment that he's many times stronger than they thought he was going to be? Honestly, you're just making stuff up at this point.

Gohan also never says he is weaker. The only comment he made is "I can't use my full power". This is a strong implication that he just lost his ultimate form and regressed to his Z sword self.

Yeah. Especially with the additional context added by this statement:

Muten Rōshi: "Gohan, have you been keeping your martial arts training up?"
Gohan: "I-I'm sorry, no. But I can still turn Super Saiyan. Probably."

"No, I haven't been training, but I might still be able to transform into this form, even though now, due to not training, I definitely can't transform into my strongest form".

Here's the line in question and Herms' comments on it:

Episode 22, Minute: 16
Gohan: "I can't put out my full power... Is it because I slacked off on my training?"
Gohan: "I have no choice..."
Freeza: "A Super Saiyan?!"
Gohan: "The question is, how long can my body last at this point?"

Significance: More or less a confirmation that Gohan lost his Ultimate state, which he received in the Majin Boo arc. When he finds himself unable to tap into his full power, he resorts to Super Saiyan instead, which as we see is more than enough to handle Tagoma. Nothing to worry about, folks!

Angry Saiyan Arc Gohan (After Piccolo's Death) vs Jaco

Jaco hasn't done anything to put him anywhere near Piccolo Daimao's level, let alone Gohan's ~2,800 power level that would have been superior to all but a dozen of the adult saiyans in Jaco's time.

[supercat]

How would Krillin even know the full extent of First Form Frieza's power? In any case, he had quite a bit of confidence in Gohan and we all know how that ended.

And you lowballing a character based on one vague statement isn't really an evidence based conclusion. Also, where's the proof that Gohan got as weak as some of you like to claim? While it is quite plausible that he went down a few notches, I honestly doubt it's as bad as some like to believe.

How were Goku and Vegeta even supposed to know the pinnacle of Piccolo's progression?

How could he not? Freeza wasn't hiding it, they could sense how enormous it was from space. And Bulma is the one who was confident in Gohan, not Krillin. How about you actually prove that Freeza was hiding his true power for no reason then?

It's not a vague statement, it's actually rather concrete and explicit, with nothing contradicting it. I dont know how you can claim to be working on a logic based conclusion when ignoring two clear power statements that put SS Gotenks and Mr. Buu above Freeza's 1st form. Nobody's lowballing Gohan either. They're just taking the series at face value: Super Saiyan Gohan is as strong as Super Saiyan Gohan. He's not some weird hybrid of SS and Ultimate that was never implied to exist anywhere in any official capacity.

Because he was training when they found him? And at no point do they comment that he's many times stronger than they thought he was going to be? Honestly, you're just making stuff up at this point.

Taking the show at face value...Right... Is that why people subscribe to a speculation as convoluted and ridiculous as Goku having two base forms?

Uh, sorry to burst your bubble but it was never explicitly stated that Mr. Buu > First Form Frieza; that whole statement likely just means that Krillin felt having the overrated fodder on their side would help their chances. Also, he did drop Gohan's name when he was filling 18 in on the situation.

So I guess you agree that Frieza's power was enormous; thanks for making it that much easier for me.

Again, why should I take anything Gotenks has to say seriously when he has a track record of talking big while lacking the ability to back it up?

And I find it hilarious how you just nonchalantly claim that I'm making stuff up when your own speculations lack validity. Haha, and I thought debating with Broly fans was bad...

Bottom line is, neither you nor I have enough proof to firmly pinpoint where things stand in terms of power levels so quit taking this crap so seriously; everything is purely hypothetical at this point.

[ZombieVito]

Uh, sorry to burst your bubble but it was never explicitly stated that Mr. Buu > First Form Frieza; that whole statement likely just means that Krillin felt having the overrated fodder on their side would help their chances. Also, he did drop Gohan's name when he was filling 18 in on the situation.

Again, why should I take anything Gotenks has to say seriously when he has a track record of talking big while lacking the ability to back it up?

Huh? There quote is pretty clear. Kuririn also doesn't know Gohan slacked.

It's not what Gotenks said but the fact that no ki sensor tried to stop him.

[supercat]

Uh, sorry to burst your bubble but it was never explicitly stated that Mr. Buu > First Form Frieza; that whole statement likely just means that Krillin felt having the overrated fodder on their side would help their chances. Also, he did drop Gohan's name when he was filling 18 in on the situation.

Again, why should I take anything Gotenks has to say seriously when he has a track record of talking big while lacking the ability to back it up?

Huh? There quote is pretty clear. Kuririn also doesn't know Gohan slacked.

It's not what Gotenks said but the fact that no ki sensor tried to stop him.

That statement still doesn't irrefutably prove that Mr. Buu > First Form Frieza; it's just an indication that having the former fighting alongside them would help their chances that much more.

You can adhere to that theory if you'd like, but I personally cannot envision any incarnation below Buuhan tangling with First Form Frieza, unless there was a bit of retconning involved in Buu's power. Meaning, if SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu were both retconned to be above Ultimate Gohan / Buutenks and Mr. Buu was upgraded to a level just below Kid Buu, I guess I could see Mr. Buu being more relevant in terms of strength.

So in theory, that would look like the following:

SSJ3 Goku / Kid Buu > Buuhan / Mr. Buu > Ultimate Gohan

This could also explain why Mr. Buu performed better against Beerus than Gotenks and Gohan.

All speculation at this point though.