The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[RandomGuy96]

Taking the show at face value...Right... Is that why people subscribe to a speculation as convoluted and ridiculous as Goku having two base forms?

Nice attempt to change the subject. Unfortunately it will not work. Give your proof that Super Saiyan Gohan is not as strong as Super Saiyan Gohan. Because, again, it seems like you're just making stuff up and then acting superior to everyone else who doesn't go through the same mental gymnastics.

Uh, sorry to burst your bubble but it was never explicitly stated that Mr. Buu > First Form Frieza; that whole statement likely just means that Krillin felt having the overrated fodder on their side would help their chances.

You're just wrong here.

Krillin: “Goku and Vegeta aren't here yet? Well, I guess that's all right, we've got Boo...”

As long as they have Buu, things are alright. It doesn't even matter that Goku and Vegeta aren't there: Freeza won't be a problem. There it is, clear as day.

Also, he did drop Gohan's name when he was filling 18 in on the situation.

He says it's reassuring to have Gohan (before he learned about the extent of Gohan's decline) and Buu. It's quite obvious which one he's more confident in, as when he gets to the battle site, the first thing he thinks after being told Goku and Vegeta still aren't back is "oh well, we still have Boo, things will be fine". Not "oh well, we still have Gohan, things will be fine".

So I guess you agree that Frieza's power was enormous; thanks for making it that much easier for me.

Not sure what this has to do with anything. Anyway, I'll take this as a concession, unless of course you're finally ready to offer some proof rather than vague insults.

Again, why should I take anything Gotenks has to say seriously when he has a track record of talking big while lacking the ability to back it up?

Because Krillin said the same thing about a most likely weaker character,

And I find it hilarious how you just nonchalantly claim that I'm making stuff up when your own speculations lack validity.

Super Saiyan Gohan is stated to be Super Saiyan Gohan, so he's as strong as Super Saiyan Gohan.

Krillin states that things will be fine as long as they have Mr. Buu (he doesn't even seem to care that much that Goku and Vegeta are absent), even though they can all clearly sense 1st form Freeza's power at this point.

Goku and Vegeta consider Mr. Buu to be a worthwhile addition to their team while they dismiss Piccolo, therefore Mr. Buu is stronger than Piccolo.

Gotenks states that he can beat up 1st form Freeza with just SS, no one (except the gal who can't sense ki) contradicts him or tries to stop him (unlike, say, the time he tried to fight fatty in base), therefore Gotenks can beat up 1st form Freeza with just SS.

Where's the speculation? This all seems very straightforward.

Bottom line is, neither you nor I have enough proof to firmly pinpoint where things stand in terms of power levels so quit taking this crap so seriously;

Pretty hypocritical coming from a guy who came into this thread to start up an argument by quoting a five-day old post and mocking everyone who doesn't share your opinion on "power levels". But that's a good strategy. Whenever you're confronted with evidence, just claim that you don't need no stinkin' evidence and that you were never taking the conversation seriously.

it's just an indication that having the former fighting alongside them would help their chances that much more.

No it's not, stop lying.

Krillin: “Goku and Vegeta aren't here yet? Well, I guess that's all right, we've got Boo...”

[supercat]

Taking the show at face value...Right... Is that why people subscribe to a speculation as convoluted and ridiculous as Goku having two base forms?

Nice attempt to change the subject. Unfortunately it will not work. Give your proof that Super Saiyan Gohan is not as strong as Super Saiyan Gohan. Because, again, it seems like you're just making stuff up and then acting superior to everyone else who doesn't go through the same mental gymnastics.

Uh, sorry to burst your bubble but it was never explicitly stated that Mr. Buu > First Form Frieza; that whole statement likely just means that Krillin felt having the overrated fodder on their side would help their chances.

You're just wrong here.

Krillin: “Goku and Vegeta aren't here yet? Well, I guess that's all right, we've got Boo...”

As long as they have Buu, things are alright. It doesn't even matter that Goku and Vegeta aren't there: Freeza won't be a problem. There it is, clear as day.

Also, he did drop Gohan's name when he was filling 18 in on the situation.

He says it's reassuring to have Gohan (before he learned about the extent of Gohan's decline) and Buu. It's quite obvious which one he's more confident in, as when he gets to the battle site, the first thing he thinks after being told Goku and Vegeta still aren't back is "oh well, we still have Boo, things will be fine".

So I guess you agree that Frieza's power was enormous; thanks for making it that much easier for me.

Not sure what this has to do with anything. Anyway, I'll take this as a concession, unless of course you're finally ready to offer some proof rather than vague insults.

Again, why should I take anything Gotenks has to say seriously when he has a track record of talking big while lacking the ability to back it up?

Because Krillin said the same thing about a most likely weaker character,

And I find it hilarious how you just nonchalantly claim that I'm making stuff up when your own speculations lack validity.

Super Saiyan Gohan is stated to be Super Saiyan Gohan, so he's as strong as Super Saiyan Gohan.

Krillin states that things will be fine as long as they have Mr. Buu (he doesn't even seem to care that much that Goku and Vegeta are absent), even though they can all clearly sense 1st form Freeza's power at this point.

Goku and Vegeta consider Mr. Buu to be a worthwhile addition to their team while they dismiss Piccolo, therefore Mr. Buu is stronger than Piccolo.

Gotenks states that he can beat up 1st form Freeza with just SS, no one (except the gal who can't sense ki) contradicts him or tries to stop him (unlike, say, the time he tried to fight fatty in base), therefore Gotenks can beat up 1st form Freeza with just SS.

Where's the speculation? This all seems very straightforward.

Bottom line is, neither you nor I have enough proof to firmly pinpoint where things stand in terms of power levels so quit taking this crap so seriously;

Pretty hypocritical coming from a guy who came into this thread by quoting a three-day old post and mocking everyone who doesn't share your opinion on "power levels". But that's a good strategy. Whenever you're confronted with evidence, just claim that you don't need no stinkin' evidence and that you were never taking the conversation seriously.

it's just an indication that having the former fighting alongside them would help their chances that much more.

No it's not, stop lying.

Krillin: “Goku and Vegeta aren't here yet? Well, I guess that's all right, we've got Boo...”

I assure you, there was no subject changing going on; you can quit dreaming now. Mental gymnastics? I'm not the person who tries to cram everyone into some watered down tier. In any case, you can't prove that Gohan wasn't as strong as Gohan, so it's pretty hypocritical of you to tell me to prove otherwise.

Any time someone says "I guess" it's pretty plausible to assume that they're uncertain. A bit too sure of yourself there aren't you? Regardless, I guess this just further accentuates what I said earlier about how fans go above and beyond to breathe relevance into characters they favor.

Um okay, so there is zero proof that Krillin had more confidence in Buu than Gohan, yet you expect me to subscribe to it. Do you know how to read the minds of cartoon characters or something?

Uh and weren't you the one that said Frieza's power was enormous enough to be felt in space...? Wow, do I literally have elaborate on every last point for you to understand the meaning behind my post?

Again, going in circles with this whole Krillin nonsense. NEXT

That's just the thing, I wasn't confronted with evidence.

Oh, so now I'm a liar for coming up with my own speculations in an open discussion like this? Somebody's taking things a tad too personally.

[RandomGuy96]

I assure you, there was no subject changing going on; you can quit dreaming now. Mental gymnastics? Says the person who tries to cram everyone into some watered down tier

See, you keep throwing out vague insults, but your posts continue to be short on actual proof.

In any case, you can't prove that Gohan wasn't as strong as Gohan, so it's pretty hypocritical of you to tell me to prove otherwise.

I'm saying Super Saiyan Gohan is as strong as Super Saiyan Gohan. You're saying he's not. Where's your proof? Note that "proof" doesn't mean "go on a random tangent against some fan theory you don't like", it means "evidence".

Any time someone says "I guess" it's pretty plausible to assume that they're uncertain. A bit too sure of yourself there aren't you? Regardless, I guess this just further accentuates what I said earlier about how fans go above and beyond to breathe relevance into characters they favor.

It's a pretty clear statement. Do you have any actual counterargument? Or just more insults?

Um okay, so there is zero proof that Krillin had more confidence in Buu than Gohan, yet you expect me to subscribe to it.

The proof was clearly presented. When told Goku and Vegeta won't be there, the first person his mind jumps to is Buu, not Gohan. Again, this is pretty simple.

Uh and weren't you the one that said Frieza's power was enormous enough to be felt in space...?

It was large enough to be felt in space all way back in the Android arc. It doesn't actually mean anything by itself, especially considering that SS3 Goku's power could be sensed from another dimension back in the Buu arc. Your confidence doesn't seem to be justified by your knowledge.

Again, going in circles with this whole Krillin nonsense. NEXT
That's just the thing, I wasn't confronted with evidence.

Repeatedly denying it doesn't suddenly make it go away, it just makes you look silly.

Oh, so now I'm a liar? Really?

Yes. You stated that Krillin's statement was "an indication that having the former fighting alongside them would help their chances that much more". That's not what he said at all. He said, in response to being told that Goku and Vegeta won't be there to deal with Freeza, "I guess that's alright, we still have Buu". Not that "they have better chances". That things are "alright".

[Khin]

Piccolo [Buu Arc] vs. FPSS Goku [Cell Games]
Gohan [Post Dende Heal] vs. First Form Freeza
Videl [Post Ki Training] vs. Yamcha [BODB]
Hypothetical Kamiccolo [Saiyan Arc] vs. Nappa
Hypothetical Kamiccolo [Arrival on Namek] vs. Piccolo [Merged with Nail]

[DanielSSJ]

Piccolo [Buu Arc] vs. FPSS Goku [Cell Games]
Gohan [Post Dende Heal] vs. First Form Freeza
Videl [Post Ki Training] vs. Yamcha [BODB]
Hypothetical Kamiccolo [Saiyan Arc] vs. Nappa
Hypothetical Kamiccolo [Arrival on Namek] vs. Piccolo [Merged with Nail]

- I tend to put Piccolo around the same strength as a Cell Junior. Goku wouldn't have too much trouble with him.
- Gohan's a little weaker in my book. He has a chance if he gets angry, but the odds aren't in his favour.
- Yamcha's stronger, but he's rendered catatonic around girls during this time period. Videl wins by default.
- The Grand Elder mentions that the Nameless Namekian halved his power by splitting in to two. I assume that his had more to do with his potential strength than is actual power level, since the Grand Elder previously assumed that it had to be a Super Saiyan that beat him. Even without extra training to draw his potential out, Piccolo + God is decidedly stronger than Nappa and almost as strong as Saiyan arc Goku.
- I'm gonna assume that the two are equals in power, but Piccolo + Nail has the combined skill of two Namekian Warriors, so he wins by a slim margin.

[apex_pretador]

Krillin: “Goku and Vegeta aren't here yet? Well, I guess that's all right, we've got Boo...”

that doesn't mean that buu is even on the same level of 1st form freeza, let alone being above him.

You are forgetting that:

• Buu is almost imposible to put down
• Can one shot enemies much stronger than buuhan (Candy beam)
• Is still most powerful being on earth besides gotenks & Gohan

Also, why didn't krillin say "It's all right, we've gotenks" when gotenks is multiplie times more powerful than buu?

So, there is no way to compare buu to 1st form freeza.

Piccolo [Buu Arc] vs. FPSS Goku [Cell Games]
Gohan [Post Dende Heal] vs. First Form Freeza
Videl [Post Ki Training] vs. Yamcha [BODB]
Hypothetical Kamiccolo [Saiyan Arc] vs. Nappa
Hypothetical Kamiccolo [Arrival on Namek] vs. Piccolo [Merged with Nail]

Very, very close match, but goku takes the win definitely. He holds a little power advantage, and instant transmission is a major factor here.

Gohan is more than a match for freeza already. If he gets even slightly mad, freeza is roasted. I have gohan at 6,00,000

Yamcha faints after seeing her

I believe a saiyan arc kamiccolo will be more than a match for even vegeta (No ozaru). I don't think it'll always be a 2x boost like it was in cell arc.

Kamiccolo is said to "maybe able to beat" 1st form freeza, while nailccolo was thrashing around 2nd form freeza (powered up) and was implied to be good deal above 2nd form freeza FP.
Nail (warrior namek) > Kami (Dragon namek)
Nail (42000) >>>>> Kami (less than 322)
Nail was also closer to piccolo than kami would be, so even better result.

[DanielSSJ]

You are forgetting that:

• Buu is almost imposible to put down
• Can one shot enemies much stronger than buuhan (Candy beam)

- Boo is not that hard to kill if you have an overwhelming power advantage.
- The candy beam's usefulness is debatable, seeing how very strong characters can still fight while in candy form (see Vegetto). Odds are that the same thing would happen to Freeza is he's any notable degree stronger than Boo.

Like I said earlier, I'm not actually taking a stance, since I'm still undecided on how Super's power scale works, but I do feel the need to point out a few things.

[apex_pretador]

You are forgetting that:

• Buu is almost imposible to put down
• Can one shot enemies much stronger than buuhan (Candy beam)

- Boo is not that hard to kill if you have an overwhelming power advantage.
- The candy beam's usefulness is debatable, seeing how very strong characters can still fight while in candy form (see Vegetto). Odds are that the same thing would happen to Freeza is he's any notable degree stronger than Boo.

Like I said earlier, I'm not actually taking a stance, since I'm still undecided on how Super's power scale works, but I do feel the need to point out a few things.

OK, I should've said "hard to put down" rather than impossible. But given how well he performs against kid buu who had an overwhelming power advantage, and an incredible stamina, regen etc, he's too hard to put down. So, unless 1st form freeza is like vegetto level, which he isn't, buu will be able to hold his own.

1st FF is not vegetto level (Who's not just much stronger than buuhan, but much stronger than much stronger than buuhan )


Anyways, my main point was - buu could be weaker than first form freeza or could be stronger, but krillins comment doesn't put buu on even the same level as freeza "Necessarily". It , however, makes it clear that 1st FF doesn't have a really overwhelming power advantage over buu.

[ZombieVito]

Piccolo [Buu Arc] vs. FPSS Goku [Cell Games]
Gohan [Post Dende Heal] vs. First Form Freeza
Videl [Post Ki Training] vs. Yamcha [BODB]
Hypothetical Kamiccolo [Saiyan Arc] vs. Nappa
Hypothetical Kamiccolo [Arrival on Namek] vs. Piccolo [Merged with Nail]

Piccolo gets one shotted.
Gohan gets beat easily.
Videl one shots.
Kamiccolo would be at 7,000. Enough to kill Nappa if he doesn't fuck around.
Kamiccolo gets killed with a finger.

[VegetaSSJBlue]

Videl one shots..

What?
Yamcha [BODB]> Kuririn [BODB] > Tiger [BODB] > Videl

[DanielSSJ]

Videl one shots..

What?
Yamcha [BODB]> Kuririn [BODB] > Tiger [BODB] > Videl

During this time period, Yamcha has a debilitating fear of the opposite sex, so he wouldn't be able to fight back at all.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

Piccolo [Buu Arc] vs. FPSS Goku [Cell Games]
Gohan [Post Dende Heal] vs. First Form Freeza
Videl [Post Ki Training] vs. Yamcha [BODB]
Hypothetical Kamiccolo [Saiyan Arc] vs. Nappa
Hypothetical Kamiccolo [Arrival on Namek] vs. Piccolo [Merged with Nail]

Piccolo gets one shotted.
Gohan gets beat easily.
Videl one shots.
Kamiccolo would be at 7,000. Enough to kill Nappa if he doesn't fuck around.
Kamiccolo gets killed with a finger.

Videl was saying it's crazy how strong those guys were at the punching bag, like "they could lift cars". She thinks that's a crazy feet. She can't do that. Yet Yamcha fought well vs a hungry Goku and even beat him, a hungry goku (earlier in the series) lifted up a car, fully loaded and threw it with bulma in it, then survived a gunshot, which videl also cant do.

Yamcha>>>>>>>>>videl, even biggining of dragonball.

I say piccolo wins with ease. I put him above Dabura with ease.
I give Gohan the win.
nappa was even with goku even damaged, I say nappa's full power is like 12,000
Piccolonail >kamiccolo there, as it's just nail vs kami at that point.

[Bansho64]

During this time period, Yamcha has a debilitating fear of the opposite sex, so he wouldn't be able to fight back at all.

I doubt Videl could hurt him even if she tried her hardest. Videl can use ki but she still doesn't have enough strength to be able to lift cars and survive gunshots like Goku at the beginning of DB. The same Goku that was beaten by Yamcha. Videl would eventually get tired from punching and probably pass out from fatigue. Yamcha would then proceed to light up like a christmas tree from embarrassment

[apex_pretador]

[

Videl was saying it's crazy how strong those guys were at the punching bag, like "they could lift cars". She thinks that's a crazy feet. She can't do that. Yet Yamcha fought well vs a hungry Goku and even beat him, a hungry goku (earlier in the series) lifted up a car, fully loaded and threw it with bulma in it, then survived a gunshot, which videl also cant do.

Yamcha>>>>>>>>>videl, even biggining of dragonball.

I say piccolo wins with ease. I put him above Dabura with ease.
I give Gohan the win.
nappa was even with goku even damaged, I say nappa's full power is like 12,000
Piccolonail >kamiccolo there, as it's just nail vs kami at that point.

Yamcha faints after seeing her. I'm sure that counts as a win

lol, nappa was shitless scared of 8000+ goku. He was not damaged by humans (he cant be 12000 if he was damaged by humans less than 2000)
Goku cant be 8500 because KK x2 goku was below 17000.
Kamiccolo isn't always a 2x increase in power level. If he was then do you put pre-split kamiccolo at 644 ? (Because Kami is less than 322)

Kamiccolo would be at 7,000. Enough to kill Nappa if he doesn't fuck around.

Where will you put Daimao arc kamiccolo or pre-split kamiccolo? 520? 644? 580?

[apex_pretador]

New battles:

• Kid goku (pre-roshi training, with nyo-bo) VS M spopovich
• M10 LSS Broly (after seeing moon ball, NO GT) vs mystic gohan (No tail cutting)
• SS4 broly (M10) vs Mystic gohan
• SS4 broly M10 vs SS Vegetto
• SS4 gogeta (Android arc) vs Mystic gohan and SS3 gotenks (Everyone has unlimited fusion and no stamina drain)
• SS4 Vegetto (Saiyan arc) VS SS3 goku (BoG)
• SS3 gogeta (Saiyan arc, no drain) VS SS Gotenks (post rosat)

[Kuririn Fan]

Arale vs Whis ?

[Bansho64]

Arale vs Whis ?

Depends on Toriyama's mood

[DanielSSJ]

New battles:

• Kid goku (pre-roshi training, with nyo-bo) VS M spopovich
• M10 LSS Broly (after seeing moon ball, NO GT) vs mystic gohan (No tail cutting)
• SS4 broly (M10) vs Mystic gohan
• SS4 broly M10 vs SS Vegetto
• SS4 gogeta (Android arc) vs Mystic gohan and SS3 gotenks (Everyone has unlimited fusion and no stamina drain)
• SS4 Vegetto (Saiyan arc) VS SS3 goku (BoG)
• SS3 gogeta (Saiyan arc, no drain) VS SS Gotenks (post rosat)

- Comparisons between early Dragon Ball and late Dragon Ball are pretty much a crap-shoot, but I can't really see Goku winning this one.
- So Legendary Ozaru Broly vs Ultimate Gohan? The 10x boost to Broly puts him around Evil Boo's power. Gohan's significantly stronger and Broly has lost what little intelligence he has. Gohan wins without too much trouble.
- This is a different story entirely. My personal SS4 multiplier is 8,000x base (due to how SS4 Goku held his own against Ozaru-Baby, who would be 10x however much stronger he was than SS3 Goku), and that puts him around Super Vegetto. Gohan gets stomped hard.
- Broly ends up with a minuscule power advantage, but Vegetto wins through skill and not being nearly brain dead.
- My current numbers peg Gogeta as being about half as strong as Vegetto, so Android arc SS4 Gogeta ends up even stronger than Super Vegetto. Gogeta crushes them.
- At this point, Goku's and Vegeta's power is too far apart for them to be considered an optimal pairing for fusion. Even with SS4, they wouldn't be nearly enough for SS3 Goku.
- Well, the Fusion Dance for Goku and Vegeta shouldn't be possible, due to the aforementioned power gap. Even if they could do it, they're not even strong enough to beat Freeza.

[Khin]

Arale vs Whis ?

Arale was stated to "maybe" able to beat 23rd TB Goku.Whis flicks her head off.

[Pantalones]

Beerus and SSj God Goku were accidentally punching the universe to death just because Goku didn't have a full grasp on his new power just yet. Even if you take it 100% seriously for some bizarre reason, Arale's (almost) punching a planet in half once is no longer some super amazing thing when you get to the Battle of Gods range of power. It might not have even been all that impressive compared to Buu Saga characters, judging by SSj3 Goku being able to punch a hole clear through North Kai's planet (which, although much smaller than Earth, should be made of much denser stuff due to having such high gravity at such a small size.)

Whis is the guy who can effortlessly karate-chop either of those accidentally-destroying-the-universe guys into a 3-year coma after rewinding time so that the last three minutes of stuff blowing up never happened.

"Gag power" is not a thing. Joke characters are not inherently unbeatable just because they did a few absurdly overpowered (though still falling far, far, far short of SSj God/Beerus level) things once or twice. And, as has been previously said, Arale's power has always been compared to Dragonball era characters in official statements -- obviously way stronger than General Blue, probably still stronger than Goku was at the 23rd Budokai.

The thought that anyone can seriously ask if Arale has a chance of beating Whis is more absurd than... a dozen Oozaru God Super Saiyan 5 invincible-Brolys fused with an eggplant.