The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Khin]

- It's not anything like a stable or reliable technique. Goku could sustain x2 with ridiculous ease at the time he fought Ginyu.

-Hit says something along the lines of "So it has come to this" and looks like he's tensing up to fight. Anyway, I was referring to Goku so I don't see what you're saying here. The version I proposed still has Hit and non-KK SSB Goku as nowhere near Champa.

-I'm pretty sure Beerus was worried, from his expression and his response to Whis, his tone of voice had that "doth protest too much" thing going...at least to me. The gods are constantly getting verbally outplayed by their attendants--it happens a lot more to Champa, but it still happens to Beerus. And sure, it's possible that Beerus knows about the potential limits of it, but that seems much less likely and based on a couple maybes and assumptions versus what's in front of him being what worries him. Whether that means it's surpassed him or just worryingly close to him, or what.

— Same as in the Champa Arc,he may not be able to sustain it for an hour or something,but he can at least sustain it for a few minutes like Super Saiyan 3.Well unless you think,Goku in Buu Arc considers himself inferior to Fat Buu or SSj3 Gotenks is inferior to Super Buu.Goku's line of him saying that Monaka is stronger than him is pretty straightforward.

— OK.But Hit clearly hesitated to fight Champa.

— As i said,he denied it,and Whis then asked what he's thinking.He wondered why Goku was so reluctant to use it which implies he have no idea strain of SSB + Kaioken will have.And even if he is ...[See third part of my previous post].Also,there's still Vados' line of Champa punishing Hit and Goku.

[Captain Space]

— Same as in the Champa Arc,he may not be able to sustain it for an hour or something,but he can at least sustain it for a few minutes like Super Saiyan 3.Well unless you think,Goku in Buu Arc considers himself inferior to Fat Buu or SSj3 Gotenks is inferior to Super Buu.Goku's line of him saying that Monaka is stronger than him is pretty straightforward.

— OK.But Hit clearly hesitated to fight Champa.

— As i said,he denied it,and Whis then asked what he's thinking.He wondered why Goku was so reluctant to use it which implies he have no idea strain of SSB + Kaioken will have.And even if he is ...[See third part of my previous post].Also,there's still Vados' line of Champa punishing Hit and Goku.

-I guess so? Its nature as an experimental/incomplete technique he doesn't know will work at all in the first place seems to make a good enough case for it not yet being like that to me.

-Of course Hit hesitated to fight Champa. Hit is much weaker than Champa, as is non-KK SSB Goku. I've never denied that.

-Yeah, and Beerus got annoyed and defensive when answering, implying he was covering up the fact that he was worried.

Vados' line could mean Champa is stronger outright, or simply that he would win somehow, which he would given KK's issues here.

And just...I still think that:

10% Beerus < Beerus fighting SSG Goku ~ SSG Goku < SSB Goku

--is pretty undeniable. And Champa is at the very most on Beerus' level if not weaker. Ergo his and Beerus' full power couldn't be more than 10x even SSG Goku, let alone SSB.

[Khin]

-I guess so? Its nature as an experimental/incomplete technique he doesn't know will work at all in the first place seems to make a good enough case for it not yet being like that to me.

-Of course Hit hesitated to fight Champa. Hit is much weaker than Champa, as is non-KK SSB Goku. I've never denied that.

-Yeah, and Beerus got annoyed and defensive when answering, implying he was covering up the fact that he was worried.

-Vados' line could mean Champa is stronger outright, or simply that he would win somehow, which he would given KK's issues here.

And just...I still think that:

- 10% Beerus < Beerus fighting SSG Goku ~ SSG Goku < SSB Goku

--is pretty undeniable. And Champa is at the very most on Beerus' level if not weaker. Ergo his and Beerus' full power couldn't be more than 10x even SSG Goku, let alone SSB.

— He wasn't sure it will work BEFORE he used it.We was shown that he was able to sustain it for a few minutes.He flat out said Monaka is stronger than him so Beerus need to calm down.He seems confident that Monaka can take on Hit despite Hit's Tokitobashi being so much improved to the point where he can incap SSB+Kaioken x10 Goku in the time freeze.
— That's why i said "OK' in the previous post.
— As i said before,even if he is,it could be Beerus was just worried because the Kaio-ken multiplies the user's power and he doesn't know the strain it have when combined with SSB,meaning he could be taking Kaio-ken x20 Goku or something into account.Elder Kaioshin knows the technique and Beerus and Kaio seems close to each other,so it wouldn't be too far-fetched.
— As i said before,we don't know if Vados knows the Kaio-ken's strain.She said "You can punish them at any time,but i would like to see for myself how this match would end."
— That would make Goku stronger than Beerus at SSB+KK which is against what we were shown in episode 40.Plus,you could assume Beerus powered down after he fought Vegeta.I just see it as a straight up inconsistency,well it's not the only one out there,Super's power scaling is way too messy.

[apex_pretador]

People really think Golden Frieza could beat Hit without his Time Skip ability?

What about him being tough enough to withstand SSJB Goku Kaioken x10's attacks? Or even hurt him?

if this is before improvement hit, he is weaker than SSB

[Captain Space]

— He wasn't sure it will work BEFORE he used it.We was shown that he was able to sustain it for a few minutes.He flat out said Monaka is stronger than him so Beerus need to calm down.He seems confident that Monaka can take on Hit despite Hit's Tokitobashi being so much improved to the point where he can incap SSB+Kaioken x10 Goku in the time freeze.
— That's why i said "OK' in the previous post.
— As i said before,even if he is,it could be Beerus was just worried because the Kaio-ken multiplies the user's power and he doesn't know the strain it have when combined with SSB,meaning he could be taking Kaio-ken x20 Goku or something into account.Elder Kaioshin knows the technique and Beerus and Kaio seems close to each other,so it wouldn't be too far-fetched.
— As i said before,we don't know if Vados knows the Kaio-ken's strain.She said "You can punish them at any time,but i would like to see for myself how this match would end."
— That would make Goku stronger than Beerus at SSB+KK which is against what we were shown in episode 40.Plus,you could assume Beerus powered down after he fought Vegeta.I just see it as a straight up inconsistency,well it's not the only one out there,Super's power scaling is way too messy.

-I would assume since it's still in its developmental stage, it's still going to be unlikely to work any subsequent time. Someone who's more consistently stronger than Goku would have a better shot.

-Ah. The way you kept repeating it made me think you were trying to counter something I said with it.

-He could indeed, but I think that's a bit of an assumption to make if nothing of the sort is suggested.

-That almost sounds more like she's saying that he can just take out his anger later rather than interrupting the match, not so much a statement on power. Anyway, he CAN punish them later since after the fight Goku won't be KK-ing anymore...though I guess that's moot if Vados doesn't know it's hard.

-The earlier thing seems more solid than the stuff suggesting Beerus is still stronger in episode 40, to me. I think it'd definitely be...just weird and kinda baseless to assume Beerus powered down after fighting Vegeta, given how surprised he was to have had to use as much power as he did against SSG Goku.

It being an inconsistency could be the answer, yeah.

[Khin]

-I would assume since it's still in its developmental stage, it's still going to be unlikely to work any subsequent time. Someone who's more consistently stronger than Goku would have a better shot.

-Ah. The way you kept repeating it made me think you were trying to counter something I said with it.

-He could indeed, but I think that's a bit of an assumption to make if nothing of the sort is suggested.

-That almost sounds more like she's saying that he can just take out his anger later rather than interrupting the match, not so much a statement on power. Anyway, he CAN punish them later since after the fight Goku won't be KK-ing anymore...though I guess that's moot if Vados doesn't know it's hard.

-The earlier thing seems more solid than the stuff suggesting Beerus is still stronger in episode 40, to me. I think it'd definitely be...just weird and kinda baseless to assume Beerus powered down after fighting Vegeta, given how surprised he was to have had to use as much power as he did against SSG Goku.
It being an inconsistency could be the answer, yeah.

— But we were shown that it indeed work.He was able to handle it for quite long.The "Look,we still got Monaka,and he's even stronger than me" is pretty straightforward.
— No prob.
— But that's the most likely assumption we got.Goku was only Kaio-ken x2 when the scene happened,Goku being stronger than Beerus in only KKx2 would make him leagues above Beerus with Kaio-ken x10.So it's possible that Beerus knew about the Kaio-ken and he was taking Kaioken x20 or something into account,he just doesn't know the strain it will have.
— "You can punish them at anytime,but i would like to see for myself how this match would end.".Champa's anger was already out when Goku and Hit stares him with a threatening glare.The lines seems to imply that Champa can punish Goku and Hit mid-fight.But she would like to see how the match would end.
— Yeah,i just consider it as an inconsistency.I already prefer the manga version of Champa Arc since it's more consistent power scaling-wise [Unless the chapter is still not out].Since the 10% line is not present in the manga,i would probably prefer the manga version of BoG too.

[apex_pretador]

Nappa vs Cabba (Equal power levels)

SS4 Nappa (Hypothetical) vs Base cabba

SS Cabba vs FF frost, FF freeza, FP Cell (Edit: No poison)

[Khin]

Nappa vs Cabba (Equal power levels)
SS4 Nappa (Hypothetical) vs Base cabba
SS Cabba vs FF frost, FF freeza, FP Cell

— Nappa is 7 feet tall with a muscular physique and insane durability.Cabba on the other hand is very thin and short,and he run out of gas just by fighting Vegeta for a bit.I'd say Nappa takes this quite easily.
— While i have no idea how SSJ4 works.The gap between the two is way too big.Cabba one shots.
— Unless Frost can poison Cabba,the team gets their head flicked off.

[Captain Space]

— But we were shown that it indeed work.He was able to handle it for quite long.The "Look,we still got Monaka,and he's even stronger than me" is pretty straightforward.
— No prob.
— But that's the most likely assumption we got.Goku was only Kaio-ken x2 when the scene happened,Goku being stronger than Beerus in only KKx2 would make him leagues above Beerus with Kaio-ken x10.So it's possible that Beerus knew about the Kaio-ken and he was taking Kaioken x20 or something into account,he just doesn't know the strain it will have.
— "You can punish them at anytime,but i would like to see for myself how this match would end.".Champa's anger was already out when Goku and Hit stares him with a threatening glare.The lines seems to imply that Champa can punish Goku and Hit mid-fight.But she would like to see how the match would end.
— Yeah,i just consider it as an inconsistency.I already prefer the manga version of Champa Arc since it's more consistent power scaling-wise [Unless the chapter is still not out].Since the 10% line is not present in the manga,i would probably prefer the manga version of BoG too.

Oh, haha, I forgot that he wasn't at x10 yet when Beerus said that. I mean, it could still indicate he was worried about Goku's x2 power approaching him, and then x10 did surpass him, buuut the last line sorta makes this moot--

-That makes a lot more sense. The anime writers (I think the manga has more Toriyama input than the anime? Not sure) must've just thought, "Yeah, this sounds cool," because of course they couldn't know about the Kaioken's return back then. So the 10% line probably shouldn't be counted, in which case it seems more reasonable to think Goku still hasn't surpassed Champa/Beerus with x10, yet. I concede, then; you have convinced me.

I guess they're really steering clear of the original BoG movie "Goku 6/Beerus 10/Whis 15" route, heh.

EDIT:

I just rewatched it and, aside from Beerus having sweatdrops and sounding ruffled as he denies being worried about Goku using Kaioken on him, Vegeta immediately afterwards reflects that Beerus knows nothing about it.

[Bullza]

People really think Golden Frieza could beat Hit without his Time Skip ability?

What about him being tough enough to withstand SSJB Goku Kaioken x10's attacks? Or even hurt him?

if this is before improvement hit, he is weaker than SSB

Wasn't Hits only improvement in extending his time skip? He was still strong enough to hurt SSJB Kaioken x10 and take hits from him.

[Smilodon]

No rules for these fights, and until one is dead:

Jaco vs Kid Trunks?
Kid Goten (base) vs Kuririn?
Pual vs Oolong?
Kid Boo vs ROF Freeza Final Form (not golden)?
Dabura vs Tagoma?
Dai Kaio Sama vs Kid Gohan SSJ2?
Tamborine vs Shula?
Raditz vs Generic Namekian Warrior?

[Smilodon]

Nappa vs Cabba (Equal power levels)

SS4 Nappa (Hypothetical) vs Base cabba

SS Cabba vs FF frost, FF freeza, FP Cell (Edit: No poison)

Nappa wins. He was a warrior, and Cabba doesn't fight so much. At same power Nappa would be more durable too.
Nappa again. I don't think a Base Cabba could handle a SSJ3....A SSJ4 generic Sayajin would kill him with one shot.
SS Cabba wins. SS Goku could beat FF Frost easily and he was stronger than FF Freeza and much stronger than FP Cell.

[Khin]

Vegeta immediately afterwards reflects that Beerus knows nothing about it.

Vegeta and Elder Kaioshin explains that mixing Super Saiyan and Kaio-ken isn't a good idea.Which Beerus probably didn't know,doesn't mean Beerus doesn't know Kaio-keni in general.

Jaco vs Kid Trunks?
Kid Goten (base) vs Kuririn?
Pual vs Oolong?
Kid Boo vs ROF Freeza Final Form (not golden)?
Dabura vs Tagoma?
Dai Kaio Sama vs Kid Gohan SSJ2?
Raditz vs Generic Namekian Warrior?

— Trunks one shots.
— Same result.
— Puar because her shape-shifting abilities is better than Oolong.
— Freeza incinerates Buu in a matter of seconds.
— Dabra turns Tagoma into stone.
— No idea.
— Weakest Warrior-type Namekian we know have a Power Level of 3,000.Which is more than enough to crush Raditz.

[Captain Space]

Vegeta immediately afterwards reflects that Beerus knows nothing about it.

Vegeta and Elder Kaioshin explains that mixing Super Saiyan and Kaio-ken isn't a good idea.Which Beerus probably didn't know,doesn't mean Beerus doesn't know Kaio-keni in general.

Vegeta says (thinks) "You're only saying [that you're surprised Goku didn't use this technique earlier] because you don't know the Kaio-Ken..." The ones to talk about mixing it with SSJ are Elder Kaioshin and Goku, neither of whom are privy to Vegeta's internal monologue.

[Khin]

Vegeta says (thinks) "You're only saying [that you're surprised Goku didn't use this technique earlier] because you don't know the Kaio-Ken..." The ones to talk about mixing it with SSJ are Elder Kaioshin and Goku, neither of whom are privy to Vegeta's internal monologue.

There is a flashback right after that where the Kaio-ken x4 Goku Kamehameha scene was shown,which could possibly mean that he's referring to Kaio-ken's weakness.Plus,Vegeta shouldn't know wether Beerus know about the technique or not.

[Captain Space]

Yeah, Vegeta's talking about Kaioken's weakness in that it's very tiring, but he doesn't mention SSJ; and he just prefaces it with a flat statement that Beerus doesn't know Kaioken, period (and therefore won't know its weaknesses).

I would call it one of those narrative conceits from a very straight-forward series like this. It is said that Beerus doesn't know the Kaioken. This information is not contradicted; if it were wrong, it generally would be in quite an overt, dramatic (or possibly comedic) way.

Um...sorry for bringing this minor point up again XD I suppose it's not too important whether Beerus has prior knowledge of the Kaioken's existence or not...

[Khin]

Well,I'm just trying to point out that Beerus' reaction couldn't mean he was scared or something.Because if Kaioken x2 Goku is already equal or stronger than Beerus,that would make the former leagues above than the latter,which was against what we're shown.That would also make Hit not much weaker than Champa.So the only most likely assumption is Beerus' knew the Kaio-ken multiplies the user's power,but never knew the weakness of the technique.

EDIT : I rewatched the episode.And before Beerus' reaction came into play.Goku said that the Kaio-ken multiplies it's users power,speed and everything.So Beerus should know that the Kaio-ken multiplies the user's power,but never knew it's weakness.

[Captain Space]

Ah, like he was reacting to what Goku was saying. That makes more sense to me than him having prior knowledge of it when everything else points to him not, yeah.

[Bansho64]

Pan (Z) vs Nappa and Raditz Tag Team

[Smilodon]

Pan (Z) vs Nappa and Raditz Tag Team

Pan from Z???? She was under 5 old and she was only strong if you compare to ordinary people... Raditz would kill her easily.

New fights:

No rules. Until one is dead:

Babidi vs Chaos
Tambourine vs Shula (I'm Still waiting )
Dende vs Satan
Olibe vs Kuririn (from Cell games)
Yakkon vs Future Trunks (who defeated Freeza) (same conditions that Goku fought him)
Goku SSJB from U6 tournament + Mystic Gohan (potara fusion) vs Beerus at 100%
Ginyu + Reecom (potara fusion) vs Piccolo after absorb Nail
Kid Gohan vs Dai Kaio Sama (I'm still waiting )
Vegeta vs That Big Worm inside Majin Boo (fighting inside boo of course)