Gohan vs. Dabura

[Rocketman]

"We Saiyans can't be reduced to numbers."

[Savage68]

Yes, "numbers", as in "sentou-ryoku". The multipliers in the SEG dealt with strength, which is beyond numbers in and of itself.

[Xyex]

That only applies if SSJ2 is really a 2x SSJ multiplier.

And even then it wouldn't apply. The power increases displayed in the early series by focused attacks are much larger than those later in the series. I'd be not surprised if Gohan's Kamehameha was no more than 25% higher than his maximum SSJ1 level of power.

[Dayspring]

Except this sounds stupid. What skill and ability did Gohan show, then? Because last I checked, he did nothing impressive in-between Kibito's death and revival.

The fighting skill and ability that let Gohan, a being from the universe, fight Dabura, the most powerful creature in existence (after Boo). This should not be possible, yet Gohan fought on equal terms with Dabura.

SSj 2 Gohan wasn't "at rest", in the slightest. He was about to fight, and no SSj 1 power of his could match or surpass that strength. I mean, unless you think that Gohan's SSj 1 power could've dealt the same amount of damage to Cell as his SSj 2(since it was at rest and all) did.

Fine, he wasn't at rest, then. But he wasn't using all his skill and strength, either. There's a big difference between getting into a stance and fighting all-out. Kaioshin saw firsthand what Gohan could do in SSJ and knows he can do more if he could tap into his SSJ2 strength at the same time. Kibito has an idea of how much power Gohan puts as SSJ2, but has no idea if Gohan is any good at using it because he was dead during all of Gohan's battles.

[Rocketman]

has no idea if Gohan is any good at using it because he was dead during all of Gohan's battles.

Which also calls Supreme Kai's judgment into question.

[Dayspring]

has no idea if Gohan is any good at using it because he was dead during all of Gohan's battles.

Which also calls Supreme Kai's judgment into question.

Not really. At this point Kaioshin was using these points to explain that Gohan could tap into that power with a bit of training on Kaioshinkai.

Of course, he then makes Gohan rely solely on the Z-Sword instead for some reason, so I s'pose you're right.

[Kaboom]

Simply assuming "Kaioshin has no freaking idea what he's doing or talking about" manages to solve a LOT of the Boo arc's problems.

[Savage68]

The fighting skill and ability that let Gohan, a being from the universe, fight Dabura, the most powerful creature in existence (after Boo). This should not be possible, yet Gohan fought on equal terms with Dabura.

Uh...Kaioshin was the supreme deity of their universe, and was outclassed by a weak SSj 1. Kaiosama was the supreme deity of their universe(before the Kaioshin retcon) and was outclassed by half of Nappa. Skill had nothing to do with; It was power.

Kaioshin saw firsthand what Gohan could do in SSJ and knows he can do more if he could tap into his SSJ2 strength at the same time. Kibito has an idea of how much power Gohan puts as SSJ2, but has no idea if Gohan is any good at using it because he was dead during all of Gohan's battles.

That doesn't make sense. You're saying that SSj Gohan, ready to fight, was putting out less energy than a SSj 1, even though though the story tells us that any SSj 2 is well beyond any SSj 1, no matter what(barring fusions and such). If SSj Vegetto was standing in front of Kibito, but didn't prove that he knew how to use his power, would base Vegetto's Kamehameha be stronger than him?

[hleV]

When Gohan went SSJ2 at World Tournament, Supreme Kai calmly said that Gohan was stronger than he had expected.

Then he asked if Vegeta was going to fight alone against Pui Pui - someone that is weaker than base Vegeta.
And when Yakon appeared, Gohan said something about him being pretty fast. Then Supreme Kai suggested to gang up on Yakon.

So I'm assuming that Supreme Kai is simply a moron who lets his fear win against the real truth.


Now look at some pages of World Tournament before Gohan going SSJ2. He went SSJ because of his rage when that Babidi's henchman was beating the crap out of Videl. Gohan's SSJ looked the same as SSJ2, just without sparks.

So here's the deal.

• For some reason in World Tournament Gohan was confident in his ability to turn SSJ2. Perhaps his training with Goten helped.
• Then he got his energy sucked out.
• Kibito couldn't restore all of his energy.
• That prevented him from going SSJ2 against Dabura.
• Gohan received Sensu Bean and ate it. It should have restored his energy.
• Gohan (SSJ) noted that he's angry, bat not like the last time. I bet he meant Cell Games saga, not World Tournament.

I can't explain Gohan not going SSJ2 after he received a Sensu Bean. Maybe, as someone suggested, he really needed more time to gather his energy for transformation.

And yes, I now believe that Gohan was SSJ against Dabura because of my argument about Gohan looking like SSJ2 as SSJ during Videl's match.

[Son_Gohan]

So here's the deal.

• For some reason in World Tournament Gohan was confident in his ability to turn SSJ2. Perhaps his training with Goten helped.
• Then he got his energy sucked out.
• Kibito couldn't restore all of his energy.
• That prevented him from going SSJ2 against Dabura.
• Gohan received Sensu Bean and ate it. It should have restored his energy.
• Gohan (SSJ) noted that he's angry, bat not like the last time. I bet he meant Cell Games saga, not World Tournament.

I can't explain Gohan not going SSJ2 after he received a Sensu Bean. Maybe, as someone suggested, he really needed more time to gather his energy for transformation

He never makes any indication of needing more time to transform, which he had plenty of anyways.

The whole situation was reliant on Gohan getting angry and that's really all it comes down to. Gohan's energy was fully restored after eating the Senzu bean but without the rage boost, he is nothing special at all. I'm starting to see why Toriyama never gave Gohan bolts after getting his energy drained at the tournament, it was only to show his weakness. Nothing suggests to me afterwards that he was unable to transform into SSJ2 again, Gohan never alludes to it and neither does anyone else.

[Godo]

That doesn't make sense. You're saying that SSj Gohan, ready to fight, was putting out less energy than a SSj 1, even though though the story tells us that any SSj 2 is well beyond any SSj 1, no matter what(barring fusions and such). If SSj Vegetto was standing in front of Kibito, but didn't prove that he knew how to use his power, would base Vegetto's Kamehameha be stronger than him?

Maybe he was going to fight in bursts, like Goku did against Jeice and Burter?

[Rocketman]

I'm starting to see why Toriyama never gave Gohan bolts after getting his energy drained at the tournament, it was only to show his weakness.

But no Super Saiyan 2 is ever without bolts in his aura, before or after.

[Kaboom]

If not for the Daizenshuu's slip-up in its listing (which is actually contradicted in another part), nobody would even think he was a Super Saiyan 2 at all.

[Son_Gohan]

But no Super Saiyan 2 is ever without bolts in his aura, before or after.

That's not exactly true.

After reviewing the manga a bit, I'm starting to see more evidence towards it once I broadened my perspective on the subject. The confirmed occurrence was during Goku's encounter with Yakon, he powers up into the SSJ2 form, albeit not at full power. We see that there are no bolts present, so from that justifiable evidence we can deduce that the claim does have backing from the manga.

The more questionable occurrences are during Gohan's transformation while Videl gets beaten, his fight with Dabura and thereafter, and Vegeta's first appearance after becoming Majin Vegeta. I can see them as SSJ2s there, just not at full power like Goku was, which explains why they wouldn't have bolts in their auras. While the issue of Goku and Vegeta was based more on them suppressing their power, Gohan simply didn't have enough of it, due to the lack of training during those 7 years.

[Dayspring]

The fighting skill and ability that let Gohan, a being from the universe, fight Dabura, the most powerful creature in existence (after Boo). This should not be possible, yet Gohan fought on equal terms with Dabura.

Uh...Kaioshin was the supreme deity of their universe, and was outclassed by a weak SSj 1. Kaiosama was the supreme deity of their universe(before the Kaioshin retcon) and was outclassed by half of Nappa. Skill had nothing to do with; It was power.

Kaioshin saw firsthand what Gohan could do in SSJ and knows he can do more if he could tap into his SSJ2 strength at the same time. Kibito has an idea of how much power Gohan puts as SSJ2, but has no idea if Gohan is any good at using it because he was dead during all of Gohan's battles.

That doesn't make sense. You're saying that SSj Gohan, ready to fight, was putting out less energy than a SSj 1, even though though the story tells us that any SSj 2 is well beyond any SSj 1, no matter what(barring fusions and such). If SSj Vegetto was standing in front of Kibito, but didn't prove that he knew how to use his power, would base Vegetto's Kamehameha be stronger than him?

Stop thinking in terms of RPG levels. A perfect example that refutes everything you said are the USSJ fiascos.

As for your very LOOSE analogy, if SSJ Vegetto could do nothing but stand around in SSJ, then YES, base Vegetto would be a much bigger asset. The biggest asset would be base Vegetto's skill set coupled with SSJ Vegetto's strength. Swap base Vegetto with SSJ Gohan and SSJ Vegetto with SSJ2 Gohan and we get EXACTLY what Kaioshin is explaining to Kibito. The reason he did so, AGAIN, was because KIBITO WAS DEAD and has no idea if Gohan can fight.

As for Kaioshin being outclassed by a weak SSJ, so what? That's my point. It is NOT possible for any creature from the living realm to be anywhere near as powerful as Dabura. And yet the weakest of the SSJs (by far) is Dabura's equal match. That's what makes it so shocking for Kaioshin.

[Savage68]

KIBITO WAS DEAD and has no idea if Gohan can fight.

I skipped ahead to this part and stopped reading.

So, what your very LOOSE point boils down to is that you think that Kibito assumed that one of the strongest beings in the universe was an amateur? Jesus.

[Xyex]

KIBITO WAS DEAD and has no idea if Gohan can fight.

I skipped ahead to this part and stopped reading.

So, what your very LOOSE point boils down to is that you think that Kibito assumed that one of the strongest beings in the universe was an amateur? Jesus.

Gohan is an amateur, when compared to the likes of Goku, Vegeta, or Piccolo.

Goten and Trunks are just outright amateurs and they're two of the most powerful beings in the universe. Likewise with Gotenks. So I fail to see the issue.

Besides that's not his or my point. Our point is that there's a difference between "capable", "good", "skilled", and "exceptional" when it comes to fighting. All Kibito knew was that Gohan was "capable". What Kaioshin was telling him is that Gohan's actually more than that, he's "skilled".

[Godo]

Hell, Kibito didn't even think that Gohan was capable to release the Z sword, and he even did it as a SSJ, not a SSJ2.
Kaioshin wasn't that concerned whether Gohan could release it, he seemed pretty sure.
Even as a normal SSJ, Gohan was leauges beyond Kaioshin in power.
(Which must mean that Piccolo had become much weaker since the Cell Games, since he managed to block a Cell Jr. in the least).

[Khalid Shahin]

(Which must mean that Piccolo had become much weaker since the Cell Games, since he managed to block a Cell Jr. in the least).

Didn't quite follow your logic there. Explain please.

[hleV]

(Which must mean that Piccolo had become much weaker since the Cell Games, since he managed to block a Cell Jr. in the least).

Didn't quite follow your logic there. Explain please.

In Cell Games saga Piccolo was a lot stronger than normal Super Saiyan.
In Buu saga Piccolo was afraid of Supreme Kai - someone whose powerlevel is lower than SSJ Gohan's, who was weaker than in Cell Games saga.

I disagree with Piccolo in Buu Saga being any weaker than in Cell Saga though.