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[Rocketman]

No device can read Freeza's second form power. How would he know the difference between 999,999 and 1,000,001?

[p123]

Freeza is well aware of his own power. Freeza's estimate is far better than yours, since you know, he is a character in the story, and it's his own power. Why the eff, would Rocketman place a better estimate on Freeza's power, who is just but a mere viewer, than Freeza himself. Freeza > You, at the end of the day, and if he says he is over a million, and its not contradicted, he's over a million , end of story. Unless we want to just make up whatever the hell we want at all times regardless of story, which is definitely the wrong way to do it, this is the way it has to be...

[dbgtFO]

DBGTFO, strongly disagree with your 2nd form Freeza POV... It just doesn't make sense for Freeza to say, my power is over a million, but not right this second, let me power up twice and then it will be I promise! I think it's a blatant rejection of the manga material on your part, nowhere is it suggested to be correct, it's probably more about you trying to make the Daiz numbers work moreso than realistic manga knowledge... But alas you will try, and so will others, to make the Daiz numbers make sense, when they were never intended IMO to be anything more than a general guide, a general placement of powers, and was never meant to be taken so deathly seriously...

My logic for that was comparing these two:

Chapter: 296 (DBZ 102), P9.1-2
Freeza: "At any rate, my power is excessive. Perhaps I've overdone it... Kukkukku... Incidentally, if [my strength] were put into battle power, it would be over 1,000,000, surely..."
Vegeta: “Wh-what!?”

Chapter: 301 (DBZ 107), P8.4
Freeza: “Kukkukkuh…You realized just now, right? That you underestimated me. But you’re better than I imagined. That’s what made me show you my true ability.”

his true ability being the over 1 million he earlier talked about.
to this:

Chaphter: 286 (DBZ 92), P5.4
"My battle power is 530,000. But of course, I don't intend to fight you at full power, so you can relax..."

And yes of course I try to make the official Battle Powers work! It's only when I feel they contradict, whatever the fuck the manga shows us, that I'll give them some modifications(like Nappa = 4000).

[hleV]

No device can read Freeza's second form power. How would he know the difference between 999,999 and 1,000,001?

He feels at least twice stronger than he was in his 1st form?

[p123]

All I see is a desperate attempt to make a guide's numbers work. No offense... The simplest POV is that Initial 2nd Form Freeza is over a million, and that he powers up twice on top of that. Any other POV on that issue is just a weak attempt to push one's POV onto others for whatever twisted logic honestly...

[dbgtFO]

All I see is a desperate attempt to make a guide's numbers work. No offense... The simplest POV is that Initial 2nd Form Freeza is over a million, and that he powers up twice on top of that.

The simplest POV is that the over 1 million refers to his Full Power just like his 530.000 against Nail. I can't honestly see it any simpler than that. I mean, why cite the power of a suppression of his second form, when the only relevant one should be the full power of that form?

Any other POV on that issue is just a weak attempt to push one's POV onto others for whatever twisted logic honestly...

You mean just like you do?

[Rocketman]

Freeza can't suppress his ki except by transforming. A non-exploding scouter turned on his second form would read "over one million" even if he's only using 900,000, then begins using i mil exactly, then uses his full power.

[dbgtFO]

Freeza can't suppress his ki except by transforming. A non-exploding scouter turned on his second form would read "over one million" even if he's only using 900,000, then begins using i mil exactly, then uses his full power.

Although it could have been a good point, a confused Vegeta seems to disagree with that:

Chapter: 298 (DBZ 104), P1.3
Context: Freeza’s still powering up after Gohan’s attack
Gohan: “It…it can’t be…His ki power is getting even stronger…!”
Vegeta: “Ho…how can this be?...To think that he could control his battle power…!”
Freeza: “I’ll return the pain I received many times over…Kukuku…”

Then again this is the same guy, who previously saw Freeza powering up right in front of him and wasn't like: "ZOMG he can control his BP, we're ALL GONNA DIE" , when Piccolo flying towards the battlefield notes how Freeza's Ki has gotten even larger:

Chapter: 294 (DBZ 100), P14.1
Context: as Freeza powers up
Piccolo: “That large ki has become even more absurdly large! Is this ‘Freeza’ finally starting to move?!”

I'd honestly say, that I would have agreed with you had it not been for Vegeta's comment specifically citing Freeza controlling his Battle Power, which would mean, that Freeza powering up was different from Second Form Freeza's ki power getting larger.
But I honestly really don't know...

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

I don't think the numbers in the manga were supposed to be taken that seriously, either.

[Fox666]

Freeza can't suppress his ki except by transforming. A non-exploding scouter turned on his second form would read "over one million" even if he's only using 900,000, then begins using i mil exactly, then uses his full power.

What Freeza was doing is different from Nappa of Vegeta powering-up on Earth. Freeza in his 2nd form was controlling the % of his power, much like he does in his final form.

However I am not sure if Freeza could or not hide his power from a Scouter.

No device can read Freeza's second form power. How would he know the difference between 999,999 and 1,000,001?

He feels at least twice stronger than he was in his 1st form?

No device should read his 1st form power, based on the fact that his Ginyu-like Scouter exploded reading Vegeta's power.

So it's safe to assume they have more advanced non-portable devices than Scouters or something of that sort?

[dbgtFO]

No device can read Freeza's second form power. How would he know the difference between 999,999 and 1,000,001?

He feels at least twice stronger than he was in his 1st form?

No device should read his 1st form power, based on the fact that his Ginyu-like Scouter exploded reading Vegeta's power.

So it's safe to assume they have more advanced non-portable devices than Scouters or something of that sort?

The scouter broke because Vegeta's BP was increasing rapidly and because it was high up there. If Freeza stood there fully powered up the scouter should be able to measure it just fine without exploding. Why else would he know about his own BP?
And AFAIK there aren't stated/implied to be non portable scouters in the manga. It's only in anime filler, that they show us such things exist.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Although it could have been a good point, a confused Vegeta seems to disagree with that:

Chapter: 298 (DBZ 104), P1.3
Context: Freeza’s still powering up after Gohan’s attack
Gohan: “It…it can’t be…His ki power is getting even stronger…!”
Vegeta: “Ho…how can this be?...To think that he could control his battle power…!”
Freeza: “I’ll return the pain I received many times over…Kukuku…”

Interestingly, that's exactly what Vegeta told Kiwi that he learned to do on Earth ("control my battle power"). So, can Freeza conceal his power, then? The entire battle power control deal is so screwed up... Especially considering Vegeta and Nappa's power-ups. I mean, at first, Piccolo can't even tell which of them is the stronger fighter. Later, Goku definitely feels an increase in Vegeta's power, when he kills Nappa. Same deal when he powers up for Goku during their battle. Maybe "controlling your battle power" literally means just controlling the Scouter number? So, Vegeta's power-up is like a really buff guy flexing his muscles, while controlling his battle power is like turning into a skinny guy, to hide the fact that he's strong.

[dbgtFO]

Maybe "controlling your battle power" literally means just controlling the Scouter number?

That's what I think. In the same post you quoted I pointed out the difference in First Form Freeza's Power up and Second Form Freeza controlling his BP. In the first case Freeza's ki was noted as getting larger(by Piccolo) and in the second case it also got larger(noted by Gohan), but it was first here Vegeta said he could control his BP, which undoubtedly confuses many.

What I'm basically saying is that First Form Freeza's power up was similar to Nappa and Vegeta's power ups in the way, that their BP didn't change(but to unfocused ki sensers it did). Vegeta knows this, since it's likely, that he knew Freeza was at 530.000(he did afterall have a scouter initially on Namek), so he saw the power up, but knew it still was at a level that didn't surpass the 530K. While when seeing second form Freeza he hadn't sensed any power beneath the surface and therefore thought he couldn't get stronger than that and was thusly surprised, when Freeza powered up further.

This theory does most likely not work, but I really think it would be helpful if AT or any of the guides had devoted a page or two to this subject about sensing ki vs. using scouter and controlling one's BP, since it's really confusing.

[Fox666]

- Ki sensors (earthlings): they can control their own Ki, Scouters or other Ki sensors are unable to tell their full power
+-- They can however intentionally show their full potential to a Scouter (i.e. Vegeta vs Cui)
+-- Special techniques will reveal their full potential to Scouters or other Ki sensors (i.e. Kamehameha, Kaio-ken)

- Space Trade fighters: they can control their own Ki at some extend and delude Ki sensors, however they can't deceive Scouters
+-- They must power-up to use their full power, and thus Ki sensors can sense all their power (i.e. Nappa, Vegeta on Earth, Freeza 1st form)

- Ki manipulation races: they can control their own Ki with a relative precision and mislead Ki sensors. This includes Freeza 2nd-4th forms and Captain Ginyu. It's unknow if Scouters can pick their full potential like Space Trade fighters
+-- Ki sensors can tell how much power they have based on how much power they are using

[dbgtFO]

*Stuff*

This should be in a guidebook!

[p123]

Well we know Scouters > Ki Sensing abilities , from the experiences with Vegeta/Nappa, at least in some circumstances...


Vegeta would read 18,000 on a scouter, and this would happen before any of the fighters were able to sense Vegeta was that strong...


So scouters are actually quite useful in some scenarios... And better than those with ki sensing abilties in some cases...



I think Ginyu and Freeza have similar abilties... I think Ginyu can flat out suppress his power. Jeice says I believe, that , that's nothing, even Ginyu can go up to 120,000. Which would suggest that Ginyu can adjust his numerical battle power, and not just doing the surfacing of ki like Vegeta/Nappa/Raditz did...


So all in all, I think Freeza/Ginyu can both suppress their ki, which is exactly what is implied. Being able to surface your ki, is nothing, it's what everyone generally has to do anyway...


Ginyu and Freeza are both on a different level than the rest of the empire, no one else can suppress ki like they can, it's what makes them a head above the rest, besides the obvious power differences as well...

[Fox666]

Hmmm, scouters only serve better against the Space Traders fighters, otherwise they really aren't more usefull than Ki sensing.

[p123]

Yes for example against Vegeta/Nappa/Raditz , the Z fighters would have been better off with scouters...


Considering that Freeza Empire ranges out vast and wide, and that everyone it seems except for Freeza/Ginyu all have the same issues as Vegeta/Nappa/Raditz, in all reality, Scouters would be highly useful and effective for dealing with majority of the universe...

Something that is surely never implied by the manga, but one could definitely see my point and it's plausibility...

[Fox666]

I surely understand your point

Chapter: 274 (DBZ 80), P9.1
Butta: “At any rate, races that can alter their battle power without transforming are rare.”
Recoom: “Hehhehhe, you’ve got some swell friends, Vegeta!”

[Fox666]

Here's my guide for power-ups:

Ki manipulators

This type of power-up is commonly used by the earthling. They are capable of sensing the Ki without any device.

Users of Ki manipulation are Piccolo Jr. and the other earthlings after training with Kami. It seems natural for namekians to use this technique, so it's safe to assume that Kami and Piccolo Jr. inherit it from them. Vegeta also learned this technique after fighting with Goku. Later on the story appeared Cell, Kaioshin and Babidi's allies whom also used this type of technique.

Vegeta: “Battle power 2,800...!!! So they really do drastically change their battle powers!!”

Vegeta seemed surprised that Gohan raised his power after Piccolo's death. However, while he was with the Scouter, Nappa was fighting with the earthlings. This means that through the entire battle Kuririn, Piccolo and Gohan remained with their initial values of 1,083, 1,220 and 981.

Interently the Weekly Jump states Goku battle power during the 23rd Budokai as 910, while Raditz's Scouter displayed mere 416 for Goku.

Of course this not apply to Gohan during Raditz's battle, since he never learned Ki or anything.

It seems like they can mislead the Scouters even during a combat. This also apply to other Ki sensors, who can't tell the full potential of each other at first.



Ki manipulators can intentionally reveal their full potential to the Scouters and other Ki sensors. Since this is used until the end of the story, this kind of power-up also apply to Cell, for example.

Special techniques

Whenever a Ki sensor use a special technique, it will reveal their full potential (or even more).

Almost every character has his own special techniques. However Raditz was surprised that Piccolo could rise the Makankousappou beyond his own battle power.

Likely any Ki sensor or Scouter easily pick someone's power whenever he uses a special technique.



A simply example would be the Kaio-ken. While Goku could maintain his level at 5,000 during his fight with the Ginyu Force, right after he used the Kaio-ken, Ginyu's Scouter picked-up Goku full power of 90,000.

If we go by the Weekly Jump battle powers that shown Goku with 910 at the 23rd Budokai, the same should apply when Raditz picked-up the battle power of 924 from the Kamehameha.

Planet Trade organization

Most of the villains, whom were associated with the Planet Trade organization, used Scouters to determine someone's power. They were constantly surprised by the Ki sensors ability to increase their battle powers.

Despite the aliens working for Freeza, perhaps this would also apply to Puipui or Yakon?

They still could power-up, and always surprised the Ki sensors. Despite that, a Scouter should tell their full power right away. In this case the Scouter seems more efficient than Ki sensing.



Interestingly, it seems both Nappa and Vegeta could mantain their power at a very few thousands. While the earthlings feared their Ki, still Piccolo was very surprised after Nappa powered-up, and couldn't tell that Vegeta was superior to him, despite the huge gap in power beetween the two.

Transforming-type creatures

Some aliens can transform and as a result their power increases.

This includes the Oozary and Super Saiyans for saiyans, among Freeza, Cell and Majin Buu forms.

Absolutely nor a Scouter nor a Ki sensor can tell how strong someone might be before he transforms.



It seems like there are different intentions in transformations. Vegeta comments about camouflage or to save energy. Freeza on the other hand claims he has too much power that he can't control. Zarbon possible used it for mere aesthetic purposes.

Vegeta underestimated Freeza's transformation. Based on his experience fighting Zarbon, Vegeta expected that Freeza transformation would give a increase proportional to that of Zarbon, somewhat around the 700,000. For his misfortune, Freeza right away raised his power to over 1,000,000. As if that is not enought, he can transform more 2 times.

Power controlling-type creatures

These kinds of races can control their output amount of power. Freeza could use it with a relative precision, to the point he could declare a numerical percentage to it.

This seems to limit to Ginyu and Freeza (2nd, 3rd and 4th forms). Cell might be able to do something like this due to Freeza's DNA, however does he need to since he already can manipulate his Ki?

Ki sensors cannot tell how strong they can be. However, it seems like they could sense Freeza's hidden power to a limited extend (after he transformed in his 3rd and 4th forms). According to Ginyu, this seems to be a special ability similar to that of the earthlings, thus it's unlikely that a Scouter can tell how strong they are, unless they use 100% of their power.



It we assume that Ginyu initial power was around Goku's power (since they had a even fight), could it be that the 85,000 he guessed for Goku was his own power? If that was the case, he was using 70% of his power.

It seems like that Freeza cannot use less than roughly 2% of his power while in his 4th forms, and can only decrease it further through transformations.