Success of a failure... dissecting FUNi's Z dub

[Fionordequester]

Unless someone can point to an interview where Toriyama said otherwise, I've never taken DB to be a parody. It's not making fun of it. There's a lot of humor but it's not looking down on that genre. DB takes a lot of its story from Journey to the West.

Being a parody doesn't necessarily mean looking down upon a genre. If anything, it's really more of a "awe, your so silly, but I still love you anyways " kind of thing. Teamfourstar certainly doesn't look down on Dragon Ball Z, despite how it might sometimes seem otherwise.

And honestly I would call it a parody, and was probably even intended as such, both because parodies make up the vast majority of what Akira Toriyama has done (I mean c,mon, what serious story features CAMEOS FROM CHARACTERS FROM ANOTHER STORY?!?), and because many of the antagonists are so hammy (Tao Pai Pai killing a dude with his tongue, that one Ninja dude Goku fought, Oolong, Boss Rabbit, Pilaf's gang, Yamcha's fear of girls, Red wanting to be tall, etc.). Heck I'd say Princess Bride was less of a parody than most of Dragon Ball (at least that one had a pretty nasty torture scene, which I can't recall happening in Dragon Ball until Tien broke Yamcha's leg).

And once again, DBZ isn't a radically different show than DB. There isn't a whole lot of difference between the Saiyan arc and the Piccolo arc besides Saiyans being aliens instead of a demon, which we later find out is in fact an alien. It grew and evolved over time. Having two completely different music styles is awful. DBZ isn't a scifi show. There are elements of that, but there's plenty of mysticism, so it's far more of fantasy. Look at the heavenly hierarchy, it's Eastern in origin.

Yes, between the Piccolo arc and the Saiyan arc, there's not much difference. But what about all the stuff before Tien? That's what makes up the vast majority of Dragon Ball, isn't it?

[Ajay]

To chime in on the whole 'is DBZ wuxia?' debate - I'd agree, Dragon Ball is certainly a straight up wuxia tale with all the fantastical elements of Journey to the West thrown in there. It's certainly not a parody of it since that would imply exaggeration for comedic effect. It's certainly funny but it's not because of an exaggerated take on wuxia - not as its primary form of humour at least.

As for Dragon Ball Z? It's certainly not straight up wuxia, that's for sure but the general premise is still in there, it's just more evolved. Goku fits the wuxia protagonist and whilst the focus moves away from traditional martial arts tournaments and heroes to huge planets and aliens, the general set up is still there in a certain form.

I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable calling DBZ wuxia in the same way as I would do DB simply because the plot elements that generally make up a wuxia tale simply aren't there but to say it's not wuxia at all is straight up incorrect.

[ABED]

I don't see how characters from another story equals parody. It's a nice shout out. DB has parody elements but it's not at its core a parody. Tao Pai Pai isn't hammy. How was murdering Bora hammy? Killing with his tongue was effective in showing how lethal he is. Rewatch the Red Ribbon Arc and you'll see that there's humor but it's not all just played for laughs. Red wanted to be tall, but Black shot him in the head and was Goku's final enemy. Not exactly a gag. No, I would not consider "the vast majority of DB" to be what you think it is. I don't think Toriyama mocks or trivializes the wuxia genre.

What Team Four Star did and what Toriyama did aren't in the same vicinity.

Dragon Ball grew and changed. The 21st Tournament arc had humor but it also had drama. It's a show that evolved, it wasn't a radical shift. It was a natural outgrowth of the story and the music should reflect that. Kikuchi's does, Faulconer's doesn't.

[Fionordequester]

To chime in on the whole 'is DBZ wuxia?' debate - I'd agree, Dragon Ball is certainly a straight up wuxia tale with all the fantastical elements of Journey to the West thrown in there. It's certainly not a parody of it since that would imply exaggeration for comedic effect. It's certainly funny but it's not because of an exaggerated take on wuxia - not as its primary form of humour at least.

What about that times where Krillin and Roshi did super-speed, and then spent several minutes explaining how they blew rasberries at each other as well as other ridiculous things? Or the time where Pilaf threatened Bulma with a kiss, and she was all "WOW, all you want to do is kiss me? You don't want a "grope grope" or a "suck suck" or anything like that to me? WOW, SOME VILLAIN YOU ARE! Or that moment where Roshi told Goku that he had to move a rock...only to have trouble moving it himself? Or heck, let's not forget Goku telling Krillin...

Goku: "Why're struggling against Bacterian? YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE A NOSE!"

Krillin: "Huh? Oh yeah, THAT'S RIGHT!!"

Point is, it may not be a straight-up parody, but parody makes up a heck of a large chunk of it, enough that I don't think you can really score it the same way you would score Dragon Ball Z.

As for Dragon Ball Z? It's certainly not straight up wuxia, that's for sure but the general premise is still in there, it's just more evolved. Goku fits the wuxia protagonist and whilst the focus moves away from traditional martial arts tournaments and heroes to huge planets and aliens, the general set up is still there in a certain form.

I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable calling DBZ wuxia in the same way as I would do DB simply because the plot elements that generally make up a wuxia tale simply aren't there but to say it's not wuxia at all is straight up incorrect.

Alright, fair enough. I just don't think you can say that it's innappropriate to have anything else there though.

My point is, Kikuchi's pieces have a more natural, visceral feel, a sense of "bigness" that doesn't come with the superficial attitude of a lot of modern sound (especially the droning of a lot of Faulconer's pieces). And they fit the operatic nature of the earth chewing combat, where the sky bleeds lightning and mountains crumble when the characters power up.

...I don't know though. Kikuchi sounds more like a Western soundtrack with Japanese instruments to me. It just doesn't seem bombastic enough to warrant "epic" or "operatic". Now Japanese GT on the other hand? Now THAT had some stuff that I would easily call bombastic. If anything, that's the soundtrack that seems like something I would consider a better fit than Kikuchi.

I don't see how characters from another story equals parody. It's a nice shout out.

Really? To me, it seems like a good way of not having your story taken seriously. It'd be like having the Punisher show up as one of the soldiers in World War Z. Or having James Bond show up in The Bourne Ultimatum. Or having people from The Godfather show up in Slumdog Millionare. Or perhaps Connor Macleod showing up in Hancock. The two movies could be totally similar in tone, and it'd still be a good way of taking people out of the story. And it's fine for Dragon Ball since it wasn't what I would consider a serious story (for the most part), but it's not exactly something that helps build the credibility of a story...

DB has parody elements but it's not at its core a parody. Tao Pai Pai isn't hammy. How was murdering Bora hammy?

...but ok, that I'll give to you. I guess I kind of skipped over that part . Oh yeah, and there WAS that bit with the shopkeeper.

Killing with his tongue was effective in showing how lethal he is.

...doesn't mean it's not silly. Heck, having Vegetto beating up Super Buu as a ball of superpowered candy was an effective way of showing how utterly screwed Super Buu seemed, but that doesn't mean it wasn't silly.

Rewatch the Red Ribbon Arc and you'll see that there's humor but it's not all just played for laughs. Red wanted to be tall, but Black shot him in the head and was Goku's final enemy. Not exactly a gag.

Alright, so at the end, things got serious with Black. But really, I define a story's overall tone by just how much comedy there is compared to action, and while a story can be both (like Huckleberry Finn for example), I believe that it has to have a relatively good mix of serious moments to silly moments, and while Dragon Ball does indeed have serious moments even before Tien...I don't think there's enough of them to counterbalance all the goofy stuff that goes on.

That said though, I will watch the Red Ribbon Arc rather than go by what VegettoEX says. I've either read or watched just about everything else, but that one is the one I'm the least familiar with. Still, I think it's kind of telling that much of the podcasts involved them laughing at the ridiculous stuff in there (or at least a lot more than in later volumes).

No, I would not consider "the vast majority of DB" to be what you think it is. I don't think Toriyama mocks or trivializes the wuxia genre.

Well, he doesn't TRIVIALIZE it...but I think he definitely mocks it at several points, with a few examples I listed near the top.

[ABED]

Having punisher show up in WWZ is NOT the same thing at all. You constantly picked characters from completely different genres. Toriyama created both Dr. Slump and Dragon Ball. This is more akin to having DC characters show up along side Marvel characters.

I don't think there's enough of them to counterbalance all the goofy stuff that goes on.

You and I differ in that assessment. Plus, you see that as the vast majority but from the Tenshinhan arc on is a little less than half of the show. There's a lot of stuff that's dramatic in early DB, such as Bora's death and training with Karin. Yes, there's comedy but it's still pretty earnest. The series gradually got more serious, but the key word is "gradually"! Tenshinhan has a fair mix of humorous stuff, and Piccolo Daimao was just another step in the evolution of the show, but it happens over time, thus having a completely different score is wrong. I'm not sure what you don't understand about gradual evolution. It's not like the show went from Gag manga to serious within the span of one arc. His art style changed as well, but you can see the evolution happen over time from the rounder style to the sharper style, but once again, it happens over the span of many chapters. There's also plenty of comedic moments in Z such as basically anything Mr. Satan does, as well as Gotenks, and The Great Saiyaman.

[90sDBZ]

Well another thing I can say in defence of the dub is this. Since the release of Dragonball Evolution Toriyama has openly said "It's not Dragonball". As far as I know he's never once said that about the dub.

Also Kikuchi's score may have been conceived and made for Dragonball but the story of Dragonball wasn't conceived and made for the Kikuchi score. For all we know Toriyama had little input on the score Toei used. My point is that both Kikuchi's and Faulconer's scores fit well for their respective versions of the show.

As for that Goku vs Frieza score video posted by Penguintruth I'll say that the piece that starts at 2.10 is good and one of the better Kikuchi tracks in Z but I certainly wouldn't say that Faulconer hasn't done better than that. As for the rest of the video before it I really don't find it appealing. It just fails to generate any suspense or excitement which is something that plenty of Faulconer tracks manage to do.

Believe it or not but there are actually some Faulconer tracks I think aren't all that different to Kikuchi's in the message they give off. Like Kikuchi's spirit bomb theme from movie 7 and Faulconer's spirit bomb theme. I get a similar feeling from listening to both of them and actually enjoy them both. In fact watching Kai recently on tv with the different placement to Z and seeing the spirit bomb episode with Kikuchi's spirit bomb theme playing actually made me remember watching Z back in the day with Faulconer's spirit bomb playing in the same scene and I actually enjoyed it for the same reasons. Just compare these and tell what's so different about them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flJbl2Ebzkc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ2JrlwxyLQ

And although this isn't Kikuchi I also find these 2 scenes to be handled similarly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5rPyDITQGQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOGIc_L1pUE

Both versions give off a feeling of hope and excitement for Goku's inevitable battle with Frieza.

[penguintruth]

Going to those links, I'm reminded of another problem with Faulconer's score. You have to wade through a lot of droning noise to even get to the "quality" parts. Fortunately most of his pieces don't start where they start on the soundtracks. There's a difference between build up and "Here's shit, here's shit, here's shit, THIS PART MIGHT BE GOOD, more shit, more shit, more shit, END".

It's like he's just banging down on the synthesizer for three minutes until actual music starts. "Uh yeah, I want to do a cool piece, but first a lot of droning, some factory sounds, holding down the keys on the Casio for a few minutes, then some kind of melody, then back to somebody humping a giant metal saw." I mean, yeah, Kikuchi employs the vibroslap so much sometimes that you think you're watching a Spaghetti Western, but it's never boring.

As for generating suspense, I find Kikuchi's pieces really draw you into the atmosphere of the show, of the power being used, of the reaction of the environment, but without too much Mickey Mousing. Like Goku's first transformation into a Super Saiyan. The Kikuchi piece makes it to be a horrifying, drastic transformation of pure rage. The piece is urging you to be very, very afraid, because Goku has SNAPPED, and it has awakened a mighty rage that is shaking the planet. The Faulconer piece for that scene comes off as, "HEY GUYS CHECK OUT THIS BADASS THING GOKU IS DOING WOAH HE'S SO AWESOME WATCH HIS POWER NEAT HUH KIDS?" Kikuchi piece makes you think Freeza is about to crap himself in fear, Faulconer piece comes off as something you want to bang your head to, like Goku's about to do some air guitar. It doesn't connect the right emotion to the scene at all.

It's true that Kikuchi creates pieces that are used often and not for specific scenes, but most of the time the music is invocative of the level of power being unleashed on a natural, atmospheric way, rather than trying to merely impress the viewer with how badass and edgy everything is.

[jjgp1112]

The Faulconer score pieces aren't meant to be listened to on their own. The majority of the songs were originally made for a specific scene and synced up to the events (hence why a lot of the names are specific to a certain scene, like "Vegeta fights Frieza," "Gohan & Icarus," "Goku vs. Jeice & Burter," etc) , and are usually made in a way that they can be easily chopped up and have certain parts be used for other scenes.

Also, Faulconer barely had any involvement with the score. The majority of it were guys like Scott Morgan (cRookie_Monster on here) and Mike Smith.

[penguintruth]

My mistake, I should refer to it as the Faulconer Productions score.

Just like, technically the "Ocean dub" is largely a Funimation production, even though it's referred to as the "Ocean dub".

[Fionordequester]

My mistake, I should refer to it as the Faulconer Productions score.

Just like, technically the "Ocean dub" is largely a Funimation production, even though it's referred to as the "Ocean dub".

Well if you want, I at least can stop calling it the Ocean dub if it annoys you. How about the Saban-FUNI dub? As opposed to the In-house FUNI dub?

[penguintruth]

I don't mind, but for myself, I try to call it the "Ocean cast dub" instead of just the "Ocean dub".

[Fionordequester]

I don't mind, but for myself, I try to call it the "Ocean cast dub" instead of just the "Ocean dub".

Okey doke, Ocean cast dub it is then !

[Cipher]

Being a parody doesn't necessarily mean looking down upon a genre. If anything, it's really more of a "awe, your so silly, but I still love you anyways " kind of thing. Teamfourstar certainly doesn't look down on Dragon Ball Z, despite how it might sometimes seem otherwise.

While parody doesn't have to mock its source material maliciously, part of that genre/subgenre is its willingness to deliberately expose flaws in the original by humorously subverting expectations.

I think what you're describing is more of a "pastiche," which Dragon Ball definitely is of Journey to the West and kung-fu storytelling in general. Or, for example, the Cell arc is one big Terminator pastiche. It's not making fun of it, exactly, but it's throwing a ton of kitschy, winking nods in its direction and incorporating its sensibilities into its own story.

Wha'? On topic? I couldn't care less about the quality of FUNimation's dub one way or the other.

[90sDBZ]

Going to those links, I'm reminded of another problem with Faulconer's score. You have to wade through a lot of droning noise to even get to the "quality" parts. Fortunately most of his pieces don't start where they start on the soundtracks. There's a difference between build up and "Here's shit, here's shit, here's shit, THIS PART MIGHT BE GOOD, more shit, more shit, more shit, END".

It's like he's just banging down on the synthesizer for three minutes until actual music starts. "Uh yeah, I want to do a cool piece, but first a lot of droning, some factory sounds, holding down the keys on the Casio for a few minutes, then some kind of melody, then back to somebody humping a giant metal saw." I mean, yeah, Kikuchi employs the vibroslap so much sometimes that you think you're watching a Spaghetti Western, but it's never boring.

As for generating suspense, I find Kikuchi's pieces really draw you into the atmosphere of the show, of the power being used, of the reaction of the environment, but without too much Mickey Mousing. Like Goku's first transformation into a Super Saiyan. The Kikuchi piece makes it to be a horrifying, drastic transformation of pure rage. The piece is urging you to be very, very afraid, because Goku has SNAPPED, and it has awakened a mighty rage that is shaking the planet. The Faulconer piece for that scene comes off as, "HEY GUYS CHECK OUT THIS BADASS THING GOKU IS DOING WOAH HE'S SO AWESOME WATCH HIS POWER NEAT HUH KIDS?" Kikuchi piece makes you think Freeza is about to crap himself in fear, Faulconer piece comes off as something you want to bang your head to, like Goku's about to do some air guitar. It doesn't connect the right emotion to the scene at all.

It's true that Kikuchi creates pieces that are used often and not for specific scenes, but most of the time the music is invocative of the level of power being unleashed on a natural, atmospheric way, rather than trying to merely impress the viewer with how badass and edgy everything is.

All opinion. I feel like the Faulconer Productions Spirit Bomb theme is flawless in that it gradually builds up the suspense before getting to the really great more dramatic parts. What you said about him just mindlessly banging down on a synthesiser couldn't be more off. Everything in that particular theme was clearly made to fit with what was happening onscreen during the episode. I daresay if it was just mindless banging on a synthesiser that he'd have hardly any fans at all. To me a lot of the stuff in Kikuchi's score comes across as boring droning.

Another thing I like about the Faulconer Productions score is that it evolves over the course of the series. In the Frieza saga there was a lot of metal sounding music to reflect the action. In the Android/Cell saga there was more Techno to give it a futuristic feeling to fit with the theme of Cyborgs and time travel. And let's not forget that the Android saga was inspired by The Terminator which also used techno/synthesised music. In the Buu saga there was a lot of dark music to give off the feeling of a twisted fairytale at times which I felt really suited the character of Buu. I liked how some of Super Buu's themes sounded like more eerie and dark versions of Fat Buu's themes which really conveyed that this guy had gone off the deep end from being a child-like simple minded killer who didn't know any better to a true psychopath who truly loved killing.

Also, back to the dub itself, I felt there were many moments that were great in both versions for different reasons. Like Goku's Kaiokenx20. In the Japanese version he's realistic about his chances and pretty much says "if this doesn't work we're all screwed" which is good because having Goku be realistic about it shows just how in over his head he is. Then there's the dub which has him say he's going to beat Frieza no matter what, even if he's a million times stronger than him which I think adds an inspirational and powerful feeling to the scene. He's basically saying that he's not going to cave in to the overwhelming odds and fight on to find a way to win no matter what it takes. And that's why it's one of my favourite scenes in the dub. It really fits very well with the scene especially considering he just had a horrific nightmare about his friends deaths while being seemingly down and out. That nightmare made him remember what he was fighting for and instantly put the fight back into him making him more determined than ever to overcome the odds and bring down Frieza.

And him saying he's going to win no matter what really fits the character too. Like the way King Kai describes him to the others in the dub "When he came to train here he was like a little kid. Still innocent enough to believe there was nothing he couldn't do". This shows that Funi weren't completely off the mark with the character.

[Metalwario64]

I don't mind, but for myself, I try to call it the "Ocean cast dub" instead of just the "Ocean dub".

Same here. I've been doing that for a little over a year or so myself.

[ABED]

90sDBZ, having Goku tell Freeza he will win no matter what is one of the less egregious changes they made (especially that season) but it's still not something they should've done. It's not the job of the adapters to make Goku "more heroic" or more inspirational.

The Faulconer's music had some good stuff, but I still stand by the fact that DB and Z shouldn't have two radically different scores since they aren't radically different shows. Kikuchi's also changed over time. Perhaps more often in DB than in Z, but it still changed.

[Blade]

It's not the job of the adapters to make Goku "more heroic" or more inspirational.

The job of an adapter is to adapt something, the parameters of adaptation are entirely their prerogative.

[ABED]

I didn't say it wasn't their right, just that it wasn't their job. It's not like adpating from one medium to another, it's another language, and the line works perfectly as is. This isn't like translating Kaio-sama's jokes. Adaptation is making something suitable. I fail to see how the original dialog needed changing.

[90sDBZ]

I didn't say it wasn't their right, just that it wasn't their job. It's not like adpating from one medium to another, it's another language, and the line works perfectly as is. This isn't like translating Kaio-sama's jokes. Adaptation is making something suitable. I fail to see how the original dialog needed changing.

The job Toei hired Funi to do was to make DBZ a success by whatever means they felt necessary. It was a success so they did their job right. Now we have 2 great versions of the same show that people can enjoy for different reasons.

And I honestly think that making Goku more heroic helped the shows' popularity. A Western audience likes a heroic character. People love Goku's "Hope of the universe speech".

[ABED]

Now we have 2 great versions

Dub Z is mediocre at best. When you average it out, the good parts don't trump the bad stuff that much that I could ever call it great. Disregarding Kai, movies 1-3 are the only great thing about the Z dub.

Goku is heroic in his actions, he doesn't have to be explicit about it. Kids don't have to be spoonfed a lesson to embrace a character.

Yes, DBZ was a success in America, but once again, it was successful pretty much everywhere else regardless of the fidelity of the adaptation.