Goku > Gohan or Gotenks by end of the series?

[Draken]

We know for sure that Goku is weaker than Super Buu. He says so himself many times.

And then contradicts that statement by fighting Kiddbuu.

And then doesn't contradict that statement by fighting Kid Buu and losing as a SSJ3*

[Mjb1985]

Random dont feed the troll man.

Buu was also mentally weakened as well. Doesn't Dodoria fight less than up to his battle power because he was mentally weakened as well?

[RandomGuy96]

Random dont feed the troll man.

Buu was also mentally weakened as well. Doesn't Dodoria fight less than up to his battle power because he was mentally weakened as well?

Yeah, I guess you're right.

Well that's a common fan theory, and one I follow myself. Mostly coming from his loss of courage, which Toriyama said was one of the three main things that make up ki; even if you believe in very small power gaps making crucial difference in fights, something has to explain why 24,000 Vegeta one shotted >18,000 Dodoria while 32,000 Goku could only piss off 18,000 Vegeta with a full power blast.

But I don't think Buu being mentally weakened is necessary here, even though it is certainly possible and probable; I just find it easier and more likely that he's weaker, as he never seemed close to Gotenks in the first place. He certainly wasn't SCARED of Gotenks, if nothing else, so I don't think it's a similar case to Dodoria.

So someone refresh my memory: ki is courage, vitality, and...?

[Draken]

Random dont feed the troll man.

Buu was also mentally weakened as well. Doesn't Dodoria fight less than up to his battle power because he was mentally weakened as well?

Yeah, I guess you're right.

Well that's a common fan theory, and one I follow myself. Mostly coming from his loss of courage, which Toriyama said was one of the three main things that make up ki. But I don't think Buu being mentally weakened is necessary here, even though it is certainly possible; I just find it easier and more likely that he's weaker, as he never seemed close to Gotenks in the first place. He certainly wasn't SCARED of Gotenks, if nothing else, so I don't think it's a similar case to Dodoria.

So someone refresh my memory: ki is courage, vitality, and...?

Courage, vitality, state of mind.

[RandomGuy96]

Ah. So yeah, if you want to go with that theory, go ahead; it makes sense since Buu was specifically stated to be mentally damaged. But like I said, to me he just seemed like he was outmatched the entire time, so I just think he's weaker. Even before he got pissed off, he wasn't even able to hit his enemy, who wasn't even taking him seriously. Gotenks was literally being beaten around like a volleyball and caring so little about Buu's power that he took time to play games in the middle of their fight, ignore Buu's attacks, and flamboyantly announce his own.

[Axiom]

Nope. He states that Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu when he says that "they did it" and can "finally manage something", and when he says they shouldn't form Vegetto because "it's not fair, Buu ain't merged either".

Goku himself says Super Buu will make him his bitch. I don't get why this is so hard to understand.

No he doesn't - Would you like me to post that page again? Or how about Herms quotes that state "they are talking about his size, NOT his Ki"

[Draken]

Nope. He states that Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu when he says that "they did it" and can "finally manage something", and when he says they shouldn't form Vegetto because "it's not fair, Buu ain't merged either".

Goku himself says Super Buu will make him his bitch. I don't get why this is so hard to understand.

No he doesn't - Would you like me to post that page again? Or how about Herms quotes that state "they are talking about his size, NOT his Ki"

Or how about Herms quote that state "they are talking about his size in this specific quote, not to say that his ki didn't shrink either but that wasn't their main focus"?

Please, you dodged this once, let's see if you'll dodge this again. What in the hell would they possibly mean by "we did it" and being to shit talk him OTHER THAN he got weaker and they could now take him? Unless you think Goku and Vegeta are like "We did it! We made him stronger than he ever was before and he is now weak enough for us to do something."

Wait what?

[Mjb1985]

Yea the mentally weakened bit as well as having a plan seem to me to suggest Buu wasn't fighting at his optimal ability. I think they are more or less equals. I'm cool with giving Gotenks an edge in power, just not to the degree you do.

[RandomGuy96]

Well, agree to disagree then I just think Gotenks treating Buu as lolworthy even prior to Buu's mental damage says a lot. Buu was pissed off and trying his heart out and couldn't even hit Gotenks. Even after, he was only able to get a couple shots in on Gotenks only because he got careless. Gotenks, on the other hand, was screwing around, ignoring Buu's attacks, taunting him, playing games in the middle of their fight, flamboyantly announcing his attacks, not taking Buu seriously at all... and yet despite doing all that, he was still completely dominating.

[mAcChaos]

He began the plan when he first sensed Gohan. He didn't have any real opportunity until Super Gotenks occurred though. It's not like he knew Gotenks would have Super Saiyan 3.

When Gotenks tells him his fusion would run out, Buu looks surprised. He then comes out and proceeds to get his butt whooped which encouraged Gotenks to fight him again.

But his plan from the beginning was to absorb Gotenks to become stronger than Gohan. The only Gotenks he knew of at the time he sensed Gohan was SS Gotenks...

If you're judging by facial expressions, he also looked really pissed when Gotenks was beating on him. And he almost died. I really, really doubt Super Buu is this good of an actor. Not to mention he was still getting his ass whooped before he learned of the limit, and didn't seem to act any different after.

What makes you think Super Buu would die from that blast. He would probably just regenerate as always.

[Mjb1985]

So why is only Gohan the one to shake Buu's throne as the strongest?

[RandomGuy96]

What makes you think Super Buu would die from that blast. He would probably just regenerate as always.

I try not to overcomplicate things. Goku said that if could gather his full power he could wipe out a fresh Kid Buu, even though Kid Buu was likely stronger than him. So if Gotenks says he can wipe out someone is both weakened and weaker than him to begin with, I have no reason not to believe him. I don't think Toriyama would just throw us for a loop like that; the point of the scene seemed to be that Gotenks would've gotten the job done if he hadn't defused at the last second.

So why is only Gohan the one to shake Buu's throne as the strongest?

Because Gohan is permanent, and Buu is cocky and trying to save face. Also, we're not 100% sure when Buu thought his plan up.

Besides, if you ignore the other statements and the fight and just take Buu's claim at face value, then Super Buu is stronger than Gotenks, which I just can't see being a reality at all based on how that fight went. Not anymore than I can see Freeza being stronger than Goku.

Also notable is the effect, or rather lack thereof, that Buu's mouth blast had on Gotenks. Gotenks was charging at Buu with his foot stretched out when that happened and took the full force of the blast completely off guard. It only did a little damage and in the end accomplished little more than pissing Gotenks off. We've seen examples of what happens when someone gets taken off guard by an attack equal to them; the results aren't pretty. See SPC vs Gohan and Piccolo vs Goku.

[mAcChaos]

I try not to overcomplicate things. Goku said that if could gather his full power he could wipe out a fresh Kid Buu, even though Kid Buu was likely stronger than him. So if Gotenks says he can wipe out someone is both weakened and weaker than him to begin with, I have no reason not to believe him. I don't think Toriyama would just throw us for a loop like that; the point of the scene seemed to be that Gotenks would've gotten the job done if he hadn't defused at the last second.

I draw another lesson from it. The Buu Saga is filled with example after example of characters saying "That got Buu!" or "If I do X Buu will lose" only to have Buu survive. So they are pretty much always underestimating just how tenacious Buu is.

[TheGmGoken]

Super Buu is this good of an actor.

He/It took lessons from Goku acting in Boo Arc. That or all that candy gave him a sugar rush.

Goku himself says Super Buu will make him his bitch. I don't get why this is so hard to understand.

That means Goku isn't the strongest. *Cries*. We don't need logic. We just want Goku to be the strongest.

No he doesn't - Would you like me to post that page again? Or how about Herms quotes that state "they are talking about his size, NOT his Ki"

Goku didnt want to fight Super Boo yet he wanted to fight Kid Boo(With no fusion). Explain that.

[Axiom]

Goku is obviously the strongest - by a lot, probably 3x times as strong as Gotenks and Gohan (combined) by the end of Z.

[Mjb1985]

Only 3x? Why not 10?

[Axiom]

Only 3x? Why not 10?

It's possible considering how insignificant they are in the movies, GT and in the recent specials.

[TheGmGoken]

Goku is obviously the strongest - by a lot, probably 3x times as strong as Gotenks and Gohan (combined) by the end of Z.

End of Z? How did GOku get that strong? Explain. Earth training is useless. I'm sure Other world is only helpful for NOT getting weaker. So....explain to me how he got stronger. Hell just getting somewhat close to SSJ3 Gotenks(Going by Full power Goku) would require more training than Earth allows. Other World most likely got easier. But GOHAN!? To be 3x of GOHAN!? What did he do? Inject himself with Namekian's dna and got their training boast?

[Axiom]

Goku is obviously the strongest - by a lot, probably 3x times as strong as Gotenks and Gohan (combined) by the end of Z.

End of Z? How did GOku get that strong? Explain. Earth training is useless. I'm sure Other world is only helpful for NOT getting weaker. So....explain to me how he got stronger. Hell just getting somewhat close to SSJ3 Gotenks(Going by Full power Goku) would require more training than Earth allows. Other World most likely got easier. But GOHAN!? To be 3x of GOHAN!? What did he do? Inject himself with Namekian's dna and got their training boast?

I posted the actual scans in the manga, and they all basically show Goku wanted to fight someone stronger than himself. I don't know what else to tell you if you didn't gather that from what I posted.

[TheGmGoken]

Goku is obviously the strongest - by a lot, probably 3x times as strong as Gotenks and Gohan (combined) by the end of Z.

End of Z? How did GOku get that strong? Explain. Earth training is useless. I'm sure Other world is only helpful for NOT getting weaker. So....explain to me how he got stronger. Hell just getting somewhat close to SSJ3 Gotenks(Going by Full power Goku) would require more training than Earth allows. Other World most likely got easier. But GOHAN!? To be 3x of GOHAN!? What did he do? Inject himself with Namekian's dna and got their training boast?

I posted the actual scans in the manga, and they all basically show Goku wanted to fight someone stronger than himself. I don't know what else to tell you if you didn't gather that from what I posted.

Goku wanted to fight someone stronger than himself. So? Gohan is not a fighter and Trunks and Goten slacked off. So...he wanted a FIGHT with someone who can actually FIGHT. Even if Gohan goes Mystic he's not much of a fighter. Gotenks most likely got weaker so...you might have that one.