Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Freeza?

[Hugo Boss]

It's reasonable Kaioshin not knowing how powerful Yakon truly is, but why Bobbidi wouldn't know how powerful is Kaioshin? At least Bobbidi knows how powerful Yakon is (800 kilis).

[Speedster]

Given that it's a static multiplier, that doesn't make any sense at all.

Static multiplier? And this is a supposedly GIVEN? That is news to me! In which chapter of the manga is it stated please? Or even anime episode for that matter? Or are you referring to a post derivative work guidebook which has nothing to do with the original creator when writing the manga? Even when he was told about the x50 multiplier Toriyama was surprised. There is absolutely nothing in the source material that even remotely supports SSJ is a static multiplier. If anything the source material strongly suggests that it is boosts.

But let me prove you how wrong the statement that SSJ is a static multiplier is. First of all in the Android arc there was a big deal with all those new grades of the SSJ1 power up. What are those? We know for a fact that SSJ Grade II was a power up to the regular Super Saiyan grade I. How do you explain this?

OK you may say that the SSJ multipliers for the various grades are static but different. Of course this automatically throws the static x50 out of the window but anyway you can still support that it refers to the Grade I and Master Super Saiyan which are the forms we see mostly in the series. It follows then that the increase between SSJ1 Grade I Goku at the start of the Android arc and post RoSaT Mastered SSJ1 Goku was solely due to increasing his base power level (achieved so by mastering/training as SSJ). Now since grade II SSJ (you know that of Super Vegeta against Semi Perfect Cell) is a higher multiplier than the Grade I/Mastered Super Saiyan it follows that in order for Mastered SSJ1 Goku to be stronger than SSJ1 Grade II Vegeta, Goku had a stronger base. In other words you say this:

Base Vegeta (post RoSaT)=10
SSJ1 Grade I Vegeta=10*50=500
SSJ1 Grade II Vegeta=10*60=600

Base Goku (post RoSaT)=20
Mastered SSJ Goku(post RoSaT)=20*50=1000

Sounds logical, right? But aren't you forgetting something?
SSJ1 Grade II Goku=20*60=1200

So you essentially support that training in SSJ and mastering the form was a trick to surpass the limits of the base (mind you that we are constantly told it was the limits of SSJ). But why after that trick of increasing his base more than normally, Goku didn't use Grade II SSJ1 against Cell? After all it is a higher multiplier and unlike USSJ (Grade III) it has no speed issues. Makes sense to you? Because to me it doesn't. Or are you now going to support that MSSJ1 is a different multiplier from SSJ1 Grade I? In which case you will have 4 different multipliers for the SSJ transformations (Grade I, II, III and mastered). So much for your static 50x multiplier!

It's so much simpler, and makes far more sense, given everything shown, that the increases behave just like the Kaiou-ken does, except that the transformation also conditions the body to withstand the stress and strain of the increase, whereas the Kaiou-ken just increases their strength without any kind of conditioner for the body.

I don't know from where you are getting this. It is definitely incorrect though as for Kaioken we know for a fact that it strains your body and that the higher the base power level the higher the KK multiplier you can use or the more easily you can hold a lower KK multiplier. A 90,000 Goku on Namek could do Kaiokenx4 with ease whilst an 8000 Goku on Earth endangered bursting his body. And a 3M Goku could do Kaiokenx10 for extended intervals no problem while it was the top that a 90,000 Goku could do. So Kaioken does increase your power level WITH a conditioner for the body. So I can't see how you could even bring that argument to counter my previous one. You suggested that Gohan due to his base being higher couldn't sustain SSJ1. Which to me doesn't make any sense based on what we saw from Kaio-ken where the higher the base power level the easier you sustain a certain multiplier. If anything Super Siayan was portrayed as a less stressing powerup than Kaioken - otherwise Goku would have be using Kaiokenx10,000 by know.

[Hitiro]

I don't know from where you are getting this. It is definitely incorrect though as for Kaioken we know for a fact that it strains your body and that the higher the base power level the higher the KK multiplier you can use or the more easily you can hold a lower KK multiplier. A 90,000 Goku on Namek could do Kaiokenx4 with ease whilst an 8000 Goku on Earth endangered bursting his body. And a 3M Goku could do Kaiokenx10 for extended intervals no problem while it was the top that a 90,000 Goku could do. So Kaioken does increase your power level WITH a conditioner for the body. So I can't see how you could even bring that argument to counter my previous one. You suggested that Gohan due to his base being higher couldn't sustain SSJ1. Which to me doesn't make any sense based on what we saw from Kaio-ken where the higher the base power level the easier you sustain a certain multiplier. If anything Super Siayan was portrayed as a less stressing powerup than Kaioken - otherwise Goku would have be using Kaiokenx10,000 by know.

The Rou Kaioshin power-up was a power-up to draw a characters potential way past their limits. Going SSJ on top of having his power drawn out way past its limits it undoubtedly going to be more stressing to the body than using a form to draw out your power within your limits. It would be like Goku going KKx50 on top of what is already a comfortable level for his body to withstand. Essentially:

Base Gohan: 1
Limit of Gohan's power pre-power-up: 400 (SSJ3 is said to draw out a Saiyan's power to the very limit and has a multiplier of 400x so we'll put Gohan's limit at 400x base)

Chou Gohan: 1,000
Chou Gohan(FnF): 450
SSJ Gohan(FnF): 1,000 < Doesn't have the rest of the Rou Kaioshin power-up protecting him any more from the remaining power that is already pushing his body past its limit.

[Speedster]

The Rou Kaioshin power-up was a power-up to draw a characters potential way past their limits. Going SSJ on top of having his power drawn out way past its limits it undoubtedly going to be more stressing to the body than using a form to draw out your power within your limits. It would be like Goku going KKx50 on top of what is already a comfortable level for his body to withstand. Essentially:

Base Gohan: 1
Limit of Gohan's power pre-power-up: 400 (SSJ3 is said to draw out a Saiyan's power to the very limit and has a multiplier of 400x so we'll put Gohan's limit at 400x base)

Chou Gohan: 1,000
Chou Gohan(FnF): 450
SSJ Gohan(FnF): 1,000 < Doesn't have the rest of the Rou Kaioshin power-up protecting him any more from the remaining power that is already pushing his body past its limit.

Except that it doesn't make any sense whichever way you slice it. First you say that Gohan is partially mystic and normal base at the same time. So SSJ is upon which base a multiplier if it is supposed to be a multiplier? And by how much did it increase said base? I would assume the normal base (1) - in which case SSJ becomes 50 (If we accept the x50 multiplier). Or are you suggesting that Gohan achieved a beyond SSJ3 power up multiplication (x1000) without even going SSJ2 or SSJ3? If not then given that you say that Chou Gohan (FnF)=450 (which is 450x the normal base) and that this is the same base Gohan we saw fighting Tagoma then since Piccolo and base Gohan were comparable (Gohan probably 1.5 stronger at most) the numbers you suggest imply that Piccolo is SSJ2.5-SSJ3 tier which is certainly not the case.

[Kaboom]

Static multiplier? And this is a supposedly GIVEN? That is news to me! In which chapter of the manga is it stated please? Or even anime episode for that matter? Or are you referring to a post derivative work guidebook which has nothing to do with the original creator when writing the manga?

This type of faux incredulous reaction is unnecessary and annoying. If a guidebook says something, especially something constantly repeated like the good ol' 50x Super Saiyan boost, then of course it can and usually will be taken as a given. If that doesn't fly for you for some reason or another, then it's nobody's problem but your own.

[Hitiro]

Except that it doesn't make any sense whichever way you slice it. First you say that Gohan is partially mystic and normal base at the same time. So SSJ is upon which base a multiplier if it is supposed to be a multiplier? And by how much did it increase said base? I would assume the normal base (1) - in which case SSJ becomes 50 (If we accept the x50 multiplier). Or are you suggesting that Gohan achieved a beyond SSJ3 power up multiplication (x1000) without even going SSJ2 or SSJ3? If not then given that you say that Chou Gohan (FnF)=450 (which is 450x the normal base) and that this is the same base Gohan we saw fighting Tagoma then since Piccolo and base Gohan were comparable (Gohan probably 1.5 stronger at most) the numbers you suggest imply that Piccolo is SSJ2.5-SSJ3 tier which is certainly not the case.

I have it as pushing his battle power back up to the maximum it was back then. If there is no more potential to be drawn out then Gohan isn't going to receive any benefit. I'm working under the assumption that the Rou Kaioshin power-up drew out everything he had way past his limits. Though this possibly may not be the case. Also these numbers were just to demonstrate how I saw it. They have no relevance. So in this example if Gohan was 450 and he used SSJ. Depending on how much potential he had remaining would be his limit. If Gohan's potential actually reached 22,500(450*50) then his battle power would increase by that much with SSJ. If his potential was higher than this then obviously he would need another form to draw out more. But in my opinion his potential is up to 1,000. If you want a more information then it would look like this:

Base Gohan: 1
SSJ Gohan: 50
SSJ2 Gohan:
SSJ3 Gohan & Limit: 400

Chou Gohan(All of his potential drawn out): 1,000
SSJ Gohan(After Rou Kaioshin Power-up): 1,000 < Can't be increased any further as the forms draw out potential with nothing left to draw out there is no reason for him to transform into SSJ.

Chou Gohan(FnF): 450 < Arbitrary number doesn't matter what this is but he is still stronger than a regular SSJ I would say.
SSJ Gohan(FnF): 1,000 < Drawn out the remaining potential he lost through lack of training.

Also, I would not say for certain that Base Gohan is comparable to Piccolo. There is really no way to gauge this because Tagoma was vastly stronger than them. I mean it's like saying Piccolo is comparable to BoG Gohan because they both had their asses handed to them by Beerus. In the face of a strong opponent it is pretty much impossible to determine who is greater than who because they would both be the equivalent of ants.

[Darkprince410]

So you essentially support that training in SSJ and mastering the form was a trick to surpass the limits of the base (mind you that we are constantly told it was the limits of SSJ). But why after that trick of increasing his base more than normally, Goku didn't use Grade II SSJ1 against Cell? After all it is a higher multiplier and unlike USSJ (Grade III) it has no speed issues. Makes sense to you? Because to me it doesn't. Or are you now going to support that MSSJ1 is a different multiplier from SSJ1 Grade I? In which case you will have 4 different multipliers for the SSJ transformations (Grade I, II, III and mastered). So much for your static 50x multiplier!

It makes perfect sense to me that he wouldn't use Ssj 2nd Grade, for the same reason that Toriyama says that he intended to stop using Ssj2 or Ssj3 after the battle with Beerus. Even though they may be more powerful, they're inefficient for long term levels of combat, and Goku would rather go with what's efficient for battle over what's more powerful.

From the Twel-Buu Mysteries

Goku endlessly keeps getting stronger, with Super Saiyan 3 in the manga and Super Saiyan 4 in the anime; does Super Saiyan keep getting limitlessly stronger too? Might we eventually see things such as a Super Saiyan 5…?!

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.

So, if he's going to toss aside the more powerful Ssj2 and Ssj3 for the sake of efficiency, who's to say he didn't do that once before when it came to Full Power Super Saiya-jin vs. Ssj 2nd Grade? Sure, Ssj 2nd Grade, given his higher base battle power, would have been a higher overall level of power than FpSsj, but it's still a ki sapper.

Goku even says so himself that he considers regular Super Saiya-jin the best "balance wise", even after going through Ssj 2nd and 3rd Grade in front of Gohan moments before.

Goku: “I can’t win like this…Probably not…[ ] With my muscles swelled up like this, my power greatly increases, but it kills my speed. Huge power doesn’t mean anything if I can’t hit my opponent…And it uses up energy at too intense a rate. Balance-wise, regular Super Saiyan is best. I know that well enough…”

Ssj and FpSsj have the exact same multiplier as eachother, just that FpSsj all but completely eliminates the stress and strain associated with the form.

I don't know from where you are getting this. It is definitely incorrect though as for Kaioken we know for a fact that it strains your body and that the higher the base power level the higher the KK multiplier you can use or the more easily you can hold a lower KK multiplier. A 90,000 Goku on Namek could do Kaiokenx4 with ease whilst an 8000 Goku on Earth endangered bursting his body. And a 3M Goku could do Kaiokenx10 for extended intervals no problem while it was the top that a 90,000 Goku could do. So Kaioken does increase your power level WITH a conditioner for the body. So I can't see how you could even bring that argument to counter my previous one. You suggested that Gohan due to his base being higher couldn't sustain SSJ1. Which to me doesn't make any sense based on what we saw from Kaio-ken where the higher the base power level the easier you sustain a certain multiplier. If anything Super Siayan was portrayed as a less stressing powerup than Kaioken - otherwise Goku would have be using Kaiokenx10,000 by know.

He conditioned his body through training to withstand the power increases of the form up to the level he was capable of maintaining (which is why there were levels beyond that he couldn't). They weren't brought about by the Kaiou-ken itself, but his training for them. The Super Saiya-jin transformation though increases his power and transforms the body to be able to withstand that power. Goku specifically described the technique as just a ki amplifier, neither commenting or even suggesting that the body conditions itself to withstand the stress of the form.

[Desassina]

I always thought that Kaioken was like the SSJ Grades, because they built upon the form that was being used (base and SSJ), but it's hard to make a statement on whether or not they're just strength and speed increases when some guides have SSJ2 and SSJ3 as the ones that accomplish that. Then there is the fact that SSJ is a power increase, so it's not along the lines of the following numbered transformations. It's confusing to say the least, but SSJ can't be a power increase like Kaioken is, because the latter puts quite the strain on one's body, and I can't remember whether it was said that SSJ enhances it to support its power or not. I think it's more the case of Akira Toriyama having run out of ideas and ditching the old format, similarly to how SSJ2 came after the whole "ascending past a SSJ" theme.

[Speedster]

Static multiplier? And this is a supposedly GIVEN? That is news to me! In which chapter of the manga is it stated please? Or even anime episode for that matter? Or are you referring to a post derivative work guidebook which has nothing to do with the original creator when writing the manga?

This type of faux incredulous reaction is unnecessary and annoying. If a guidebook says something, especially something constantly repeated like the good ol' 50x Super Saiyan boost, then of course it can and usually will be taken as a given. If that doesn't fly for you for some reason or another, then it's nobody's problem but your own.

I guess it was annoying. Certainly less annoying though than the highly contradictory behaviour of Darkprince who at one time discounts the DBZ anime fillers and other official source material produced by the Dragonball franchise (which clearly shows base Saiyans>Freeza or what the magnitude of SSJ1 multiplier is), claims he only considers the original manga and yet he conveniently bases his counter-argument on something that is even less authoritative than the things he dismisses as non-canon. And even worse presenting it as a "given" in his premises. No, it is certainly not a “given” in this discussion in the same way DBZ fillers are not a given either. He cannot have it both ways.

[Darkprince410]

I guess it was annoying. Certainly less annoying though than the highly contradictory behaviour of Darkprince who at one time discounts the DBZ anime fillers and other official source material produced by the Dragonball franchise (which clearly shows base Saiyans>Freeza or what the magnitude of SSJ1 multiplier is), claims he only considers the original manga and yet he conveniently bases his counter-argument on something that is even less authoritative than the things he dismisses as non-canon. And even worse presenting it as a "given" in his premises. No, it is certainly not a “given” in this discussion in the same way DBZ fillers are not a given either. He cannot have it both ways.

Because your "sources" are ones up to interpretation, whereas the ones I'm going for aren't. The evidence you've used to support that the base Saiya-jin are stronger than Freeza has been countered repeatedly and shown to easily be construed a different way (such as the Kaioushin being weaker than base Saiya-jin and stuff like that). When you have two official guide books establishing that the Ssj multiplier is a set level, and then two versions of a recent in-universe work establishing that base Goku is weaker than Freeza (without actual contradiction), I'm going to side with that.

Your theories on how they work, while interesting, just don't fit what is shown in the manga.

[MisterGuyMan]

What have you proved here exactly? That Goku can cut Boohan with a Kienzan? You realise that the Kienzan has been shown to injure opponents vastly stronger than the user. Right? Look at Kuririn. Kuririn cut Freeza's tail off and Freeza has a battle power of 1 million at that point. Kuririn had only just reached 10,000. So there is already a 100x disparity between him and Freeza. The Kikoho(Tri Beam) has also demonstrated to be vastly stronger than other techniques. To the point that it could restrain Semi-Perfect Cell. Tenshinhan is thousands of times weaker than Semi-Perfect Cell. So no, the burden of proof is on you. Because you've already been told that if a suppressed character has received lines about them that the story will explain if they are suppressed. Look at Kaboom's examples. Not once have we been given a statement which hasn't been later clarified if it has been wrong. The "burden of proof" is on you to prove that this statement is an exception to the rule which has been vastly established.

Unless you're trying to tell me that just because Goku can use the Kienzan he can beat Freeza? Then we may as well say that anybody can beat Freeza under the right circumstance if they have a Kienzan. The reason this statement is here is because it is a fact Akira Toriyama and the staff wanted to convey to us. It doesn't need any unnecessary assumptions like "He must be suppressed." Like I and the others have said countless times, if this line serves no purpose then the line doesn't need to be there. The fact that the line is there points to it having some relevant information about Goku that the fans would like to know. I've certainly assumed that Goku and the others were below Freeza for a long time before this line given the Genki Dama and other things. This line just backs it up further. I mean the only way you can say this line is wrong is to make an assumption. In comparison we can say this line is right because the anime and movie both say it. As far as anyone is concerned in this thread we have more of a basis for being right than you do. Given we actually have something tangible to provide as evidence. If I want to make assumptions then Kuririn could beat Beerus. Because you know, Kuririn would just need to sneak up and Kienzan him from behind or wait till Beerus falls asleep and then kill him. Heck. I can just assume Sorbet can beat Goku because he can just ring beam him through the heart while Goku is suppressed. So yeah. I may as well say Sorbet > Goku and Kuririn > Beerus. I mean if we take filler SSJ Goku in the Cell Games arc was hurt by a rock Kuririn hit him with. So the Rock > SSJ Goku too.

I'm just pointing out facts. Beers' statement says that Goku, as he is when they met, doesn't have the ability, to defeat Freeza. The beauty of this argument is that the actual relative power of the two isn't relevant. So long we we know Goku has the ability to defeat Frieza, we know that any statement claiming he lacks such ability is wrong. Hence the argument, which on general principle I dislike anyway, that any statement must be true so long as Goku doesn't contradict it, also must be correct. Beers' statement is wrong whether Goku corrects it or not.

As a point of fact, we know that with IT and Kienzan, Goku actually DOES have the ability to defeat Frieza when Beers met Goku. When I say that Goku can defeat Frieza in base, I have proof no one can deny. This should put to bed the idea that the statement is correct simply because Goku never refutes it. It's simply not correct whether he refutes it or not. I'm arguing over what the line actually says. You're arguing what you think it means. What it says is purely about ability. That's why I waited to get home for the translation before emphasizing this point. Otherwise you tell me what you think it means. I tell you what I think it means. Then we just keep going in circles. What the actual statement says though is wrong.

Well problem with that is:

1.its a kienzan,very very sharp ^^

2.Buu doesnt have normal durability.

I see no reason why base saiyans cant be below 100% freeza.

Both statements were made in the movie and the anime,meaning,its a fact.This is how it is now,base saiyans are below 100% freeza.

None of those points change the fact that Goku has the ability to beat Frieza at base and how that disproves Beers' statement that he doesn't have such ability. The point here is that the argument that "Goku never contradicts him so it's true" is not only illogical, it's actually just wrong any way you look at it. Goku doesn't need to contradict it. It's wrong. The argument seems to hinge on a two pronged form that Beers is saying full powered Goku is weaker than Frieza and this must be correct since Goku doesn't contradict him. This takes care of the second part of that since regardless of if Goku corrects him, he's still wrong. The first part is taken care of since Goku was likely suppressed anyway.

[Kaboom]

Arguing "but Goku theoretically COULD beat Freeza through special techniques that Beerus doesn't know about so the line is false anyway" is desperate and honestly rather ridiculous. That's obviously not what anyone, in or out of the movie, is concerned about.

You seem to have suspiciously left out the second half of Beerus' line when you posted the screenshots. The part where he says, "but you gain power by becoming a Super Saiyan." That bolded part being the important qualifier. The focus is on Goku's power, sans Super Saiyan, compared to Freeza's power, and that's incredibly obvious.

[Hitiro]

^ I mean Kaboom hits the nail on the head here. It may be possible for Goku to beat 100% Freeza through some method like catching him off-guard with a Kienzan. Or fuse with another Saiyan using fusion. Or use a Kikoho. Or use a Genki Dama. But the statement here is one of Goku's strength. And as it stands Goku does not have the strength to beat 100% Freeza without using something to give him the edge. Hence the statement Kaboom mentioned that you left off "but you gain power by becoming a SSJ." so we can argue all day about whether Goku could have beaten 100% Freeza through various contrived methods. Somebody had a really good method for Piccolo to use to defeat most villains. Using the clothes beam to make a scarf or something appear in the opponents throat or lungs to make them suffocate. But the simple fact is that the line about Goku not being able to beat Freeza here was made with the intent of establishing that a base Saiyan doesn't have the strength to beat 100% Freeza without transforming. Strength being the key word here. Not ability. Because we know Goku and the other possess many abilities and techniques that would give them the edge. Like the Kienzan.

[MisterGuyMan]

Arguing "but Goku theoretically COULD beat Freeza through special techniques that Beerus doesn't know about so the line is false anyway" is desperate and honestly rather ridiculous. That's obviously not what anyone, in or out of the movie, is concerned about.

You seem to have suspiciously left out the second half of Beerus' line when you posted the screenshots. The part where he says, "but you gain power by becoming a Super Saiyan." That bolded part being the important qualifier. The focus is on Goku's power, sans Super Saiyan, compared to Freeza's power, and that's incredibly obvious.

I'm not leaving anything out. You keep insisting that a lack of contradiction proves the statement is true. It's false with or without a statement. I already pointed out that its already a logical fallacy that mixes absence of evidence with evidence of absence. Now its just wrong too. Beers makes a statement. Beers' statement is false. Goku doesn't contradict it even though it's false. That entire train of logic has been disproven on on grounds that exceeds mere opinion.

^ I mean Kaboom hits the nail on the head here. It may be possible for Goku to beat 100% Freeza through some method like catching him off-guard with a Kienzan. Or fuse with another Saiyan using fusion. Or use a Kikoho. Or use a Genki Dama. But the statement here is one of Goku's strength. And as it stands Goku does not have the strength to beat 100% Freeza without using something to give him the edge. Hence the statement Kaboom mentioned that you left off "but you gain power by becoming a SSJ." so we can argue all day about whether Goku could have beaten 100% Freeza through various contrived methods. Somebody had a really good method for Piccolo to use to defeat most villains. Using the clothes beam to make a scarf or something appear in the opponents throat or lungs to make them suffocate. But the simple fact is that the line about Goku not being able to beat Freeza here was made with the intent of establishing that a base Saiyan doesn't have the strength to beat 100% Freeza without transforming. Strength being the key word here. Not ability. Because we know Goku and the other possess many abilities and techniques that would give them the edge. Like the Kienzan.

That's all a big red herring. The argument that I'm disproving is the "Goku never contradicts Beers so he must be right" type of logic. First that's a logical fallacy. Second the statement is probably wrong anyway with or without Goku contradicting it. Honestly me pointing it out doesn't even change anything. The logic of such an argument is inherently flawed anyway because, as I keep pointing out, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

So Beers makes a statement as he gauges a likely suppressed Goku. There's no need to go further than that. We don't know anything beyond that. This entire point just completely debunks the argument that no contradiction somehow means something in this statement because its wrong either way. This is why I judge evidence purely on its own merit. In this case Goku was likely suppressed so the evidence is weak. Likewise with the Dabura statements. It just makes no sense to take one as gospel but dismiss the other. They're equally bad.

[Hitiro]

That's all a big red herring. The argument that I'm disproving is the "Goku never contradicts Beers so he must be right" type of logic. First that's a logical fallacy. Second the statement is probably wrong anyway with or without Goku contradicting it. Honestly me pointing it out doesn't even change anything. The logic of such an argument is inherently flawed anyway because, as I keep pointing out, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

So Beers makes a statement as he gauges a likely suppressed Goku. There's no need to go further than that. We don't know anything beyond that. This entire point just completely debunks the argument that no contradiction somehow means something in this statement because its wrong either way. This is why I judge evidence purely on its own merit. In this case Goku was likely suppressed so the evidence is weak. Likewise with the Dabura statements. It just makes no sense to take one as gospel but dismiss the other. They're equally bad.

Goku doesn't contradict Beerus because he is right. Strength-wise Goku can't beat Freeza. Beerus never said anything about having the ability to beat Freeza. His statement was directed at Goku's strength. You keep saying absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence but the simple fact is the story still tells us Goku can't beat Freeza with his current strength. Unless you can prove that his strength is indeed above Freeza's then your argument is a null point because our argument simply holds more weight than yours. Everybody here can see that the statement that Goku can't beat Freeza with his current strength is more tangible than an assumption you made of him being suppressed.

So no, Beerus makes a statement as he gauges a full power Goku unless stated otherwise. There is no need to go further than that. We don't know anything beyond what was said. The only way you can disprove this is by assuming something that is never said. As it stands the evidence points to Goku not being able to beat Freeza. That is all. And no, you aren't judging evidence purely on merit otherwise you would take the merit that suppression has always been mentioned when a power level comparison is brought up if the characters are suppressed. In this case you're assuming Goku was suppressed so your evidence is weak. Likewise your evidence about Dabura is sorely lacking too considering he showed the inability to judge the characters against his own allies so why should we trust entirely his ability to sense others? It certainly doesn't make sense to take one as gospel and dismiss the other, I agree. But until we get actual tangible evidence that Goku was suppressed your argument doesn't hold up. That is why I and the rest of the people in this thread are taking the statement literally. Because we've already given you evidence that the story makes suppression obvious in every instance of a power comparison yet you're telling us that this is the first time they disregard this when talking about a suppressed character? And not to mention that the line would have no reason in being there if it didn't have some sort of intent. But you seem to be disregarding these facts when trying to supposedly judge evidence purely on its merit.

[MisterGuyMan]

Goku doesn't contradict Beerus because he is right. Strength-wise Goku can't beat Freeza. Beerus never said anything about having the ability to beat Freeza. His statement was directed at Goku's strength. You keep saying absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence but the simple fact is the story still tells us Goku can't beat Freeza with his current strength. Unless you can prove that his strength is indeed above Freeza's then your argument is a null point because our argument simply holds more weight than yours. Everybody here can see that the statement that Goku can't beat Freeza with his current strength is more tangible than an assumption you made of him being suppressed.

You're seeing what you want to see and ignoring what's actually there. Beers says Goku doesn't have the ability to beat Frieza. That's wrong. Goku flat out has the ability to beat Frieza at base because he has the ability to IT and Kienzan. He did both to a much more powerful Buuhan at base and without Buu's regeneration, Frieza would have been damaged enough to easily beat. So as a fact, and this isn't even an opinion anymore, Goku does have the ability. Beers is wrong. As a further fact, this means the statement is wrong regardless of whether Goku contradicts it or not.

I want to emphasize this again so we're on the same page. Base Goku can IT and Kianzan Frieza and defeat him that way. This means he has the ability to do what Beers says he can't. This further debunks the already fallacious logic that an argument must true unless it's contradicted. So we're left with analyzing Beers statement on its own merit like how we should have been doing in the first place. In this case, it's no better or worse than Dabura's statements since we don't know what either was measuring.

So no, Beerus makes a statement as he gauges a full power Goku unless stated otherwise. There is no need to go further than that. We don't know anything beyond what was said. The only way you can disprove this is by assuming something that is never said. As it stands the evidence points to Goku not being able to beat Freeza. That is all. And no, you aren't judging evidence purely on merit otherwise you would take the merit that suppression has always been mentioned when a power level comparison is brought up if the characters are suppressed. In this case you're assuming Goku was suppressed so your evidence is weak. Likewise your evidence about Dabura is sorely lacking too considering he showed the inability to judge the characters against his own allies so why should we trust entirely his ability to sense others? It certainly doesn't make sense to take one as gospel and dismiss the other, I agree. But until we get actual tangible evidence that Goku was suppressed your argument doesn't hold up. That is why I and the rest of the people in this thread are taking the statement literally. Because we've already given you evidence that the story makes suppression obvious in every instance of a power comparison yet you're telling us that this is the first time they disregard this when talking about a suppressed character? And not to mention that the line would have no reason in being there if it didn't have some sort of intent. But you seem to be disregarding these facts when trying to supposedly judge evidence purely on its merit.

Goku is likely suppressed. I say that because of all the times we see Goku, he's confirmed suppressed more times than he's not when he's doing day to day activities. I actually don't even have to assume that much. It's the other way around. Since you're citing Beers' statement as evidence, logically, the burden of proof falls on you to prove what the evidence is measuring. You're making the assumption not me. This is your evidence. So until YOU can prove what Beers is measuring, YOU can't cite the evidence as anything but an assumption.

This also brings us back to preponderance of evidence. There's more evidence for the base Saiyans being stronger. You have Beers statement which you can't prove what was being measured. The Base Saiyans being stronger has the same type of evidence from Dabura except it's three base Saiyans being stated to be stronger. Then we have Kaio Shin being shocked at Vegeta's power. Then we have Vegeta agreeing to a SSJ handicap. So if you tally it all up, there's simply more evidence for the base Saiyans being stronger and the only one here that actually has an understanding of what's going on is Vegeta.

[Kamiccolo9]

Evidences isn't quantitative.

You can't go "I have three evidences and you only have one, so I win." It doesn't work that way. That's asinine. It's the quality of your evidence that matters. I'm inclined to take Beerus's uncontradicted word over an egomaniac dumbass like Vegeta, or Babidi and Dabura, who get proven wrong at every turn.

And then there's the whole "why would it be there if it isn't true," issue, and, while you could apply that to the old stuff too, newer stuff would logically take precedence over outdated information. This fanbase has this stubborn determination to refuse to accept that for some reason, though.

[Hitiro]

You're seeing what you want to see and ignoring what's actually there. Beers says Goku doesn't have the ability to beat Freeza. That's wrong.

Incorrect. Beerus says "Seeing you now... I don't think you'd be able to. But you gain power by becoming Super Saiyan." As far as this statement goes it is a judgement purely based on strength.

Goku flat out has the ability to beat Freeza at base because he has the ability to IT and Kienzan. He did both to a much more powerful Buuhan at base and without Buu's regeneration, Freeza would have been damaged enough to easily beat. So as a fact, and this isn't even an opinion anymore, Goku does have the ability.

I don't disagree he would have the ability to beat Freeza. But the issue here is Beerus is on about strength. Hence why in the very same sentence he talks about gaining power by becoming Super Saiyan.

Beers is wrong. As a further fact, this means the statement is wrong regardless of whether Goku contradicts it or not.

No, the sentence isn't wrong in the context it was given. It was addressed as Goku's strength. Ability was not the point of contention here. So please stop ignoring the facts. If Beerus was stating he had didn't have the ability to then that would have been said. Not this.

I want to emphasize this again so we're on the same page. Base Goku can IT and Kianzan Freeza and defeat him that way. This means he has the ability to do what Beers says he can't. This further debunks the already fallacious logic that an argument must true unless it's contradicted. So we're left with analyzing Beers statement on its own merit like how we should have been doing in the first place. In this case, it's no better or worse than Dabura's statements since we don't know what either was measuring.

I mean you can emphasize it as much as you want. That doesn't change the fact that Beerus never says Goku lacks the ability to do it. Merely the strength. So this debunks nothing.

Goku is likely suppressed. I say that because of all the times we see Goku, he's confirmed suppressed more times than he's not when he's doing day to day activities. I actually don't even have to assume that much. It's the other way around. Since you're citing Beers' statement as evidence, logically, the burden of proof falls on you to prove what the evidence is measuring. You're making the assumption not me. This is your evidence. So until YOU can prove what Beers is measuring, YOU can't cite the evidence as anything but an assumption.

Actually no. There is no proof Goku is suppressed in his day to day activities. This is just something you've assumed. Unless you can give me evidence that he is suppressed during his daily life when a villain like Cell isn't around? I mean I can cite at least one instance in which the Z Senshi weren't suppressed. Just before Freeza shows up on Earth. Vegeta says something along the effects of "Will you start suppressing before you engage in small talk? The Namekian has done it already, he is a true warrior." You keep saying it logically falls to me and the rest to provide evidence. But the only thing you've done is make assumptions. I've not seen a lick of evidence actually come from you to prove most of your stuff. Such as the "suppressing while he's doing day to day activities." An assumption. Meanwhile we have provided plenty of evidence to prove our arguments. Evidence you keep perpetually ignoring such as when a character receives a power comparison we're told whether that character is suppressed. Kaboom has given you 10ish examples of such cases. Yet you're choosing to ignore this for the sake of your own argument. And what do you mean I have to prove Beerus is measuring? His statement makes it pretty clear it is about power. The word is actually in his statement "Seeing you now... I don't think you'd be able to. But you gain power by becoming Super Saiyan." So no, it is up to you to provide evidence for all of the things I, and the others, suggested in this thread. Not that you're going to. Because I've asked several times already and you just ignore it and keep rattling on about "Goku likely being suppressed." without any actual hard evidence. I suggest you come back when you have something tangible because the only thing you've done so far is make assumptions.

This also brings us back to preponderance of evidence. There's more evidence for the base Saiyans being stronger. You have Beers statement which you can't prove what was being measured. The Base Saiyans being stronger has the same type of evidence from Dabura except it's three base Saiyans being stated to be stronger. Then we have Kaio Shin being shocked at Vegeta's power. Then we have Vegeta agreeing to a SSJ handicap. So if you tally it all up, there's simply more evidence for the base Saiyans being stronger and the only one here that actually has an understanding of what's going on is Vegeta.

Except this isn't evidence? Because for starters we don't know how a magical demon being measures other characters and especially other characters who draw their power from a different source, in this case Ki. It was clear that the Saiyan's couldn't measure him other than with movement. So either Dabura has some magical sensing ability, which could more than explain why he knew that they were the strongest. Because magic isn't bound by the same rules, if it is a clairvoyant thing then it may just point him to the strongest characters without him knowing why they are actually that strong. But I assume this is too much of an assumption for you even though you've been making assumptions for ages anyway. Secondly the Kaioshin being shocked by Vegeta's power shouldn't mean much, only that the Saiyan's are stronger in their base form than he thought. Because he knew they could take Freeza with their SSJ forms. If this were a general shock at Vegeta's power in general then I have to ask why wasn't he shocked with SSJ2 Gohan's power output at the tournament? Are you telling me that SSJ2 Gohan < Base Vegeta? The only way for him to be shocked here is if he thought their base forms were much weaker than what he pegged them. Thirdly. If we're going to go by people being shocked why are Goku and Vegeta shocked to find out the Kaioshin could deal with Freeza in one blow? Surely if they had reached this point in their base forms they would have no reason to be shocked. As I pointed out to someone else a while ago. The only way we can make heads or tails of this is if they are still below Freeza in base form. Because they would be thinking something along the lines of "There are beings that strong without having use gimmicks like transformations or fusion?!"

[MisterGuyMan]

Evidences isn't quantitative.

You can't go "I have three evidences and you only have one, so I win." It doesn't work that way. That's asinine. It's the quality of your evidence that matters. I'm inclined to take Beerus's uncontradicted word over an egomaniac dumbass like Vegeta, or Babidi and Dabura, who get proven wrong at every turn.

And then there's the whole "why would it be there if it isn't true," issue, and, while you could apply that to the old stuff too, newer stuff would logically take precedence over outdated information. This fanbase has this stubborn determination to refuse to accept that for some reason, though.

Based on quality and quantity, there's more evidence that the base Saiyans are stronger. The important part that you're igoring is that Beers' statement is just as legitimate, or illegitimate as Dabura's statements. That's not asinine at all. That's just counting. So if you want t use statements here then there's more statements for the base Saiyans too. In terms of quality, Vegeta is the most knowledgeable and he sides with the base Saiyans being stronger too.

Incorrect. Beerus says "Seeing you now... I don't think you'd be able to. But you gain power by becoming Super Saiyan." As far as this statement goes it is a judgement purely based on strength.

Two different statements. I'm reading them literally as they are and as a matter of fact, one statement is factually wrong.

I don't disagree he would have the ability to beat Freeza. But the issue here is Beerus is on about strength. Hence why in the very same sentence he talks about gaining power by becoming Super Saiyan.

So let's examine the statemenet PURELY on its own merits. Can you prove what power Beers was referring to? Was Goku suppressed or at full power? Until you can prove one way or another, purely on the statement's merits alone, the evidence is thin and assumption based. That's what's important honestly. The merits of the statement is the only thing you should be looking at not the presence or absence of other statements that may or may not exist.

No, the sentence isn't wrong in the context it was given. It was addressed as Goku's strength. Ability was not the point of contention here. So please stop ignoring the facts. If Beerus was stating he had didn't have the ability to then that would have been said. Not this.

That's exactly what Beers said though. He said Goku doesn't have the ability to beat Freeza. Goku, factually, does have the ability to beat Frieza. The word from the translation is 'able' which is the same thing. Moreoer you're equating your interpretation with fact. I'm not ignoring facts. I'm ignoring your interpretation. From day one I always stated the sequence was just an excuse to make Goku turn SSJ and fight Beers. I'm not forcing you to accept that interpretation. Likewise your interpretation is your own. I'm talking facts. One statement of Beers is wrong. That's a fact. No amount of contradiction will make that statement true. That's also a fact.

I mean you can emphasize it as much as you want. That doesn't change the fact that Beerus never says Goku lacks the ability to do it. Merely the strength. So this debunks nothing.

Ability is the noun form of able. You literally have no grounds at all for complaining about my use of the word ability. It's the same word.

Actually no. There is no proof Goku is suppressed in his day to day activities. This is just something you've assumed. Unless you can give me evidence that he is suppressed during his daily life when a villain like Cell isn't around? I mean I can cite at least one instance in which the Z Senshi weren't suppressed. Just before Freeza shows up on Earth. Vegeta says something along the effects of "Will you start suppressing before you engage in small talk? The Namekian has done it already, he is a true warrior." You keep saying it logically falls to me and the rest to provide evidence. But the only thing you've done is make assumptions. I've not seen a lick of evidence actually come from you to prove most of your stuff. Such as the "suppressing while he's doing day to day activities." An assumption. Meanwhile we have provided plenty of evidence to prove our arguments. Evidence you keep perpetually ignoring such as when a character receives a power comparison we're told whether that character is suppressed. Kaboom has given you 10ish examples of such cases. Yet you're choosing to ignore this for the sake of your own argument. And what do you mean I have to prove Beerus is measuring? His statement makes it pretty clear it is about power. The word is actually in his statement "Seeing you now... I don't think you'd be able to. But you gain power by becoming Super Saiyan." So no, it is up to you to provide evidence for all of the things I, and the others, suggested in this thread. Not that you're going to. Because I've asked several times already and you just ignore it and keep rattling on about "Goku likely being suppressed." without any actual hard evidence. I suggest you come back when you have something tangible because the only thing you've done so far is make assumptions.

This isn't how burden of proof works. You are making the claim that Beers is referring to something. Thus you have the burden of proof to prove it. So can you prove Goku wasn't suppressed? Telling me I have to disprove your claim is the fallacy of shifting the burden of proof. You're literally just assuming you're right then telling me to disprove you. That's a logical fallacy. You have to prove Goku wasn't suppressed first because you're claiming that Beers is measuring Goku's full power.

Also those two statements don't have to be equivalent. Turning SSJ is a subset of all of Goku's total abilities. It's also the only ability of Goku that Beers knows about. Oh and it's ALSO the ability that sounds like the SSG that he's looking for. So first Beers is talking about abilities in general. Then SS specifically because SSG is what he's looking for. Or if you don't like that then don't believe it. It's all interpretation. I won't force you to think like me like you can't force me to think like you. It's all about what we can both prove and I can prove that Beers statement is proveably false.

Except this isn't evidence? Because for starters we don't know how a magical demon being measures other characters and especially other characters who draw their power from a different source, in this case Ki. It was clear that the Saiyan's couldn't measure him other than with movement. So either Dabura has some magical sensing ability, which could more than explain why he knew that they were the strongest. Because magic isn't bound by the same rules, if it is a clairvoyant thing then it may just point him to the strongest characters without him knowing why they are actually that strong. But I assume this is too much of an assumption for you even though you've been making assumptions for ages anyway. Secondly the Kaioshin being shocked by Vegeta's power shouldn't mean much, only that the Saiyan's are stronger in their base form than he thought. Because he knew they could take Freeza with their SSJ forms. If this were a general shock at Vegeta's power in general then I have to ask why wasn't he shocked with SSJ2 Gohan's power output at the tournament? Are you telling me that SSJ2 Gohan < Base Vegeta? The only way for him to be shocked here is if he thought their base forms were much weaker than what he pegged them. Thirdly. If we're going to go by people being shocked why are Goku and Vegeta shocked to find out the Kaioshin could deal with Freeza in one blow? Surely if they had reached this point in their base forms they would have no reason to be shocked. As I pointed out to someone else a while ago. The only way we can make heads or tails of this is if they are still below Freeza in base form. Because they would be thinking something along the lines of "There are beings that strong without having use gimmicks like transformations or fusion?!"

So we can't trust the judgements of a magical demon but we can trust the judgements of a magical cat. That's a double standard. I'm also not making any assumptions on this at all. I'm just pointing out what Dabura states. I'm not even saying it's a good judgement because I can't prove what he was measuring. By contrast you're assuming that you know what Beers was measuring with no proof. I'm sorry but that's a blatant double standard. You're complaining about Dabura's statement even though you have just as little proof with Beers statement. That's confirmation bias. You assume you know what Beers is talking about so you expect everyone else to prove you wrong. You assume Dabura is wrong so you expect everyone else to prove him right. That's not how it works. We treat both of them the same since there's no preferential treatment here. If you tell me I have to prove Dabura's statements then you do the same with Beers. No shifting of the burden of proof. Otherwise both statements are equal.

Moreover Kaio Shin can one shot Frieza. You keep ignoring that part. If he can one shot Frieza then he should be able to one shot Pui Pui and Yakon if they're weaker than Frieza too without the help of the Base Saiyans and eliminate any risk of giving Buu energy. Of course that's not what happened. Instead, Kaio Shin, wanted help against both, and base Saiyans could do what a guy who can one shot Frieza needed help against. Also Goku is a nice guy so he gives props to anyone who gets strong. He gives props to Kuririn and Piccolo for being strong too. That doesn't mean he wanted Krillin weighing him down against Vegeta in the Saiyan arc or Piccolo and Gohan against Frieza. Now contrast that with Kaio Shin. Goku wanted them to go away because they were too weak. Kaio Shin wanted their help against Pui Pui and Yakon and the base Saiyans could do that solo. See the difference there? Weaker than Frieza? Goku says to go home. That's the exact opposite of what happens here.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

newer stuff would logically take precedence over outdated information. This fanbase has this stubborn determination to refuse to accept that for some reason, though.

Perhaps because by the author's own admission, he has forgotten a lot. It's also evident in the inconsistent new material itself.

Personally, I take statements in the new material at face value, but only apply them to the new material as well. SS3 Goku became the undisputed #1 after beating Pure Boo in DBS, but it sure isn't that way in the manga. Same with this situation; I consider (pre-God) Base Goku in DBS weaker than Freeza, but not Boo arc Goku.