GT and misogyny

[super michael]

Maybe my memory might be wrong but wasn't Goku helpless against Oceanus Shenron? Didn't Pan help Goku out and then both of them killed Oceanus Shenron? If remember right Goku was trapped in Oceanus whirlwind and he couldn't do anything.

Her Kamehame-Han distracts Liu Xing Long long enough for Gokuu to break free and kill her. Bare in mind, the episode is also horribly transmisogynistic, so...yeah. The series still hates women.

If it is no problem can you tell me what they did wrong in this episode that is considered transmisogynistic?

[JulieYBM]

Maybe my memory might be wrong but wasn't Goku helpless against Oceanus Shenron? Didn't Pan help Goku out and then both of them killed Oceanus Shenron? If remember right Goku was trapped in Oceanus whirlwind and he couldn't do anything.

Her Kamehame-Han distracts Liu Xing Long long enough for Gokuu to break free and kill her. Bare in mind, the episode is also horribly transmisogynistic, so...yeah. The series still hates women.

If it is no problem can you tell me what they did wrong in this episode that is considered transmisogynistic?

Woman gets revealed to be a 'man' (transphobes see trans women as men) deceiving men, gets unmasked (outed) as a 'man', is evil, is then killed outside of her feminine form, essentially stripped of her agency and humanity.

Also, she's the only female Evil Dragon and she's born of the Oolong panty wish, which humiliates her. The whole episode is just incredibly triggering.

[MyVisionity]

It's sexist either way. Yeah Satan's a grandfather but his grandchild happens to be a girl. Because of that, his "grandfatherly concern" becomes sexist.

Sorry to be blunt but this is a BS response. She's a girl, ergo it's sexist? You can show concern or protectiveness for a granddaughter because that's sexist. It's sexist if the concern is not primarily about her safety but her being a girl and thus less able to take care of herself.

Yes, she's a girl, so it's sexist. You can show grandfatherly concern for a granddaughter, but it may also be sexist, depending upon the nature of the concern and conditions in which the individuals are operating under. Both the concern and the sexism existing at the same time. Satan talking that way and acting that way with Pan is unavoidably sexist. They can't be separated. Especially considering the way Pan is treated by the series overall.

[ABED]

It's sexist either way. Yeah Satan's a grandfather but his grandchild happens to be a girl. Because of that, his "grandfatherly concern" becomes sexist.

Sorry to be blunt but this is a BS response. She's a girl, ergo it's sexist? You can show concern or protectiveness for a granddaughter because that's sexist. It's sexist if the concern is not primarily about her safety but her being a girl and thus less able to take care of herself.

Yes, she's a girl, so it's sexist. You can show grandfatherly concern for a granddaughter, but it may also be sexist, depending upon the nature of the concern and conditions in which the individuals are operating under. Both the concern and the sexism existing at the same time. Satan talking that way and acting that way with Pan is unavoidably sexist. They can't be separated. Especially considering the way Pan is treated by the series overall.

This is an incredibly reductive take. The nature of the concern is simply that she's his grandchild. Don't overthink the simplest of concepts.What way did Mr. Satan talk? There are plenty of other issues but this ain't one of them.

[JulieYBM]

Goten and Trunks: "those two mess around too much lolz!"

Pan: "oh, if only we'd never taught you martial arts!"

The double standard is pretty evident here. The people who make Dragon Ball believe that women have no role to play in battle. GT's Pan arc is consistently about re-enforcing the view that she is intruding on boys' spaces and that she is only going to be a bother and get hurt.


Jesus Christ, we have direct quote from the producer describing their sexist, woman-hating ideology.

[ABED]

Goten and Trunks: "those two mess around too much lolz!"

Pan: "oh, if only we'd never taught you martial arts!"

The double standard is pretty evident here. The people who make Dragon Ball believe that women have no role to play in battle. GT's Pan arc is consistently about re-enforcing the view that she is intruding on boys' spaces and that she is only going to be a bother and get hurt.


Jesus Christ, we have direct quote from the producer describing their sexist, woman-hating ideology.

And jesus christ, we also have Chichi showing concern that her child getting hurt. This isn't as clean cut an example as you believe it to be. Again, his paternalism towards his grandchild is justified since he is her patron. You have a bunch of other examples of this problem but this one example ain't one of them. And does anyone in the story ever imply they think Trunks and Goten are just so cute messing around fighting for the fate of the world? We see over and over Piccolo's concern for Gohan going as far as to call out Goku for practically throwing Gohan to the wolves when he fights Cell. That was him being paternalistic.

[WittyUsername]

Goten and Trunks: "those two mess around too much lolz!"

Pan: "oh, if only we'd never taught you martial arts!"

The double standard is pretty evident here. The people who make Dragon Ball believe that women have no role to play in battle. GT's Pan arc is consistently about re-enforcing the view that she is intruding on boys' spaces and that she is only going to be a bother and get hurt.


Jesus Christ, we have direct quote from the producer describing their sexist, woman-hating ideology.

And jesus christ, we also have Chichi showing concern that her child getting hurt. This isn't as clean cut an example as you believe it to be. Again, his paternalism towards his grandchild is justified since he is her patron. You have a bunch of other examples of this problem but this one example ain't one of them. And does anyone in the story ever imply they think Trunks and Goten are just so cute messing around fighting for the fate of the world? We see over and over Piccolo's concern for Gohan going as far as to call out Goku for practically throwing Gohan to the wolves when he fights Cell.

You and I have argued on a lot of things, but this is something I full-heartedly agree with. Hell, in terms of current Dragon Ball, the characters seem pretty protective of Goten and Trunks, even though they’re canonically much older than they were when they fought Majin Boo (though they certainly don’t look it).

[MyVisionity]

Satan's paternal concern may be justified, but it's also sexist. Trying to stop Pan from fighting and commenting "if only we hadn't taught you martial arts" is not simply grandfatherly concern, it is also sexism. It reinforces the notion that women should not be fighters and should not learn martial arts.

[WittyUsername]

Satan's paternal concern may be justified, but it's also sexist. Trying to stop Pan from fighting and commenting "if only we hadn't taught you martial arts" is not simply grandfatherly concern, it is also sexism. It reinforces the notion that women should not be fighters and should not learn martial arts.

Did Mr. Satan ever try to stop Pan from fighting altogether though? If I recall, after the Baby arc, he allowed her to fight in the Tenkaichi Budokai in the adult division.

[JulieYBM]

The reason for why Goten and Trunks don't get told about Freeza is stated to be because they mess around too much. We then...see them mess around when they show up to the fight.

In a sub-genre where children are the ones usually doing all the fighting Pan is framed as a weakling who needs to be protected by men from her rash personality, which is all tied back to justifying writing choices made specifically because the staff believe children can't take girls being strong and that it sends a bad message.

There's no point where Pan archive's a character development and the series rebukes misogyny. The series embraces it.

[ABED]

Goten and Trunks put themselves and others in danger as a result of their messing around.

[Planetnamek]

I have my issues with Twilight considering the supposed target audience of tween and teen girls but I'm also more inclined to give slack to a woman writing a woman when it is clearly her self-insert tale. I'd actually have to read those books to give them a real analysis though, of course.

Bah, this is why I mostly just read fiction aimed at horny adult trans women now.

Having read them I can tell you there's all kinds of problematic stuff in them, Edward and Bella's relationship is incredibly creepy as he's outright possessive of her and his behavior is supposed to be seen as "charming" when its anything but, i've no joke heard actual stories of women ending up in abusive relationships in real life because of how appealing the Twiight books and films made it look, so I for one am not inclined to give Meyer any kind of slack just because she's a woman(sometimes other women can be among the worst in terms of misogyny, heck one of the main villains in The HandMaiden's Tale series is Aunt Lydia as she wants all women to be forced to be subservient to men and we see plenty of right-wing women like Tomi Lahren in real life promote those same beliefs) if anything knowing about her Mormon beliefs and the fact that sales from her books almost certainly went towards the LDS church(little known fact, Mormon creators are encouraged to give at least 10% of their earnings to that church) which is not known for being very friendly towards LGBTQ people to say the least(they threw a major hissy-fit over the sitcom "The New Normal" because it featured a gay male couple) makes me outright despise her as a person. The entire book series is basically her trying to shove her frankly creepy religious beliefs(you want heavy-handed analogies to abstinence and how it's a good thing? Oh boy does Breaking Dawn have you covered) down people's throats under the guise of third-rate fanfiction aimed at teenage girls, which makes the whole thing feel extra icky to me.

That's not even touching all the unfortunate and ugly Native American stereotypes the werewolves in those books embody, yikes. I wouldn't recommend going anywhere near those books, not unless you don't mind losing a ton of IQ points.

I read a lot of that kind of erotic fanfiction myself, and most of those stories have far better written characters then anything Meyer could ever come up with, Bella is no joke the all-time worst written female character i've ever come across in any fictional media period IMO. Pan I could at least see being better if she had someone with not-backwards beliefs writing her, but I don't see how you possibly make Bella into a good character.

[LoganForkHands73]

I think you could make an argument that Goten and Trunks' stereotypical boyishness is portrayed as a detriment in a similar way. But that's counteracted somewhat by there being better young male role models throughout the series who get respect without nearly as much overprotective treatment, namely Goku and Gohan themselves. It's undeniable that the male-female ratio in Dragon Ball is tremendously skewed. When the majority of female characters are portrayed as weaker or less useful than their male counterparts and becoming stay-at-home housewives to them, it starts getting a bit questionable.

In a vacuum, Mr. Satan's concern for Pan is 100% justified and in-character. He's her grandfather, of course he's gonna be concerned. Mr. Satan is also an old man and a prat, so it's not unfathomable that he would have socially conservative views. However, that piled on top of the various other instances of Pan being patronised creates quite a stack of unfortunate implications.

What kinda makes up for it is the fact that Pan is given quite a lot of focus, even when other supporting characters like Trunks faded into the background. In many ways, she is GT's equivalent of Bulma. Pan's return in GT's final arc is reminiscent of Bulma's full comeback in the Red Ribbon Army arc. Neither character completely disappeared, but their return helped give back some spark. The early segment of the RRA arc where Goku's going it alone against Muscle Tower is the weakest portion of that arc in my opinion, then suddenly Bulma joins in and it all starts to fall into place.

Pan didn't need to be a flawless badass. Bulma might be the closest thing Dragon Ball has to a feminist character but she's not a fighter, and forcing her to be one wouldn't contribute anything. She always contributes with brains rather than brawn. She has more than her fair share of human flaws just like the other characters that all lend in making her engaging and three-dimensional. In the same way, it's okay for Pan to be bratty and to get in over her head sometimes, that's part of what made her endearing. It's just a shame that she was so often used to prop up her beloved Oji-chan at the expense of her own character. There's less co-dependency in their relationship unless you count Pan being used as a device to make Goku angrier at the bad guy. Bulma was, if anything, the driving force in her relationship to Goku, she effectively made the entire plot of Dragon Ball happen. Bulma was her own person, Pan ended up feeling more like a satellite for Goku.

[MasenkoHA]

But as for an example of misogyny this is not in the text but I often see certain fans call Bulma a bitch for leaving Yamcha for Vegeta even claiming it is obvious Bulma cheated on Yamcha even though the text says otherwise

Instead of being angry at the male author for what he wrote they take the hatred out on a female character.

It’s the same with fans excessively hating ChiChi for wanting Gohan to study and not fight or blaming ChiChi because Gohan didn’t develop into the character they wanted him to be. But again it’s Toriyama who wrote the story this way. Why direct that hatred toward a female character?

Very true. The thing about Chi Chi too is she’s very rarely actually wrong but since the narrative paints her as a bitch...

[super michael]

Goten and Trunks put themselves and others in danger as a result of their messing around.

Then their parents should lecture them. Bulma acted all cocky towards Freeza, yet no one keeps secrets from her and brings her along to dangerous events and locations.

Plus Goten and Trunks are not the ones that mess around, that is their fusion that mess around.

Very true. The thing about Chi Chi too is she’s very rarely actually wrong but since the narrative paints her as a bitch...

Chi Chi developed in the Buu Saga to no longer hate training and fighting and ease up on the rules. This include Yo Son Goku and BoG.
She was no longer a tiger mum, that is until DBS anime got past RoF. After RoF it was her way 100% or she throw tantrum with her rules.

Goten wanted to get Super strong, but somehow that is wrong from Chi Chi point of view.

[WittyUsername]

In the case of Bulma leaving Yamcha for Vegeta, it’s pretty obvious that the whole “Yamcha cheated on her” thing was just something Toriyama threw in so that Bulma wouldn’t look like a scumbag for hooking up with Vegeta. After the Freeza arc, Toriyama seemed to try and make Bulma out to be a more reasonable and levelheaded character, so her dumping Yamcha just so she could hook up with the guy who indirectly killed him probably would’ve reflected poorly on her, unless there was a better reason for it.

[Kinokima]

In the case of Bulma leaving Yamcha for Vegeta, it’s pretty obvious that the whole “Yamcha cheated on her” thing was just something Toriyama threw in so that Bulma wouldn’t look like a scumbag for hooking up with Vegeta. After the Freeza arc, Toriyama seemed to try and make Bulma out to be a more reasonable and levelheaded character, so her dumping Yamcha just so she could hook up with the guy who indirectly killed him probably would’ve reflected poorly on her, unless there was a better reason for it.

That maybe so! I am a big Bulma and Vegeta fan but even I will admit how Toriyama threw them together wasn’t the greatest of writing. It wasn’t until the Buu Saga that we even saw Vegeta cared about her and it wasn’t until BOG and Super that they finally got actual moments together.


But I digress that wasn’t the point I was making about misogyny. Often fans hate on female characters when the male author is at fault

Say what you will about Yamcha cheating. Maybe it’s not believable for his character up to that point. But fan’s theories that really Bulma cheated because they can’t accept it was Yamcha are steeped in misogyny. Of course the male character cannot be at fault even though the text literally says he is. It’s not wrong to say it is bad writing. But coming out with theories to say it was obvious Bulma who cheated and she is a Bitch is misogynistic. Blame Toriyama he wrote it, don’t hate on the female character.

[super michael]

In the case of Bulma leaving Yamcha for Vegeta, it’s pretty obvious that the whole “Yamcha cheated on her” thing was just something Toriyama threw in so that Bulma wouldn’t look like a scumbag for hooking up with Vegeta. After the Freeza arc, Toriyama seemed to try and make Bulma out to be a more reasonable and levelheaded character, so her dumping Yamcha just so she could hook up with the guy who indirectly killed him probably would’ve reflected poorly on her, unless there was a better reason for it.

That maybe so! I am a big Bulma and Vegeta fan but even I will admit how Toriyama threw them together wasn’t the greatest of writing. It wasn’t until the Buu Saga that we even saw Vegeta cared about her and it wasn’t until BOG and Super that they finally got actual moments together.


But I digress that wasn’t the point I was making about misogyny. Often fans hate on female characters when the male author is at fault

Say what you will about Yamcha cheating. Maybe it’s not believable for his character up to that point. But fan’s theories that really Bulma cheated because they can’t accept it was Yamcha are steeped in misogyny. Of course the male character cannot be at fault even though the text literally says he is. It’s not wrong to say it is bad writing. But coming out with theories to say it was obvious Bulma who cheated and she is a Bitch is misogynistic. Blame Toriyama he wrote it, don’t hate on the female character.

You make a good point about how the writer is at fault, I guess fan should hate the writer instead of the character.

The reason why it is hard to believe Yamcha is a cheater isn't due to him being male, it is because we never saw him cheat. However when it comes to Bulma we saw how she gets jealous easy, never admits to being wrong, getting aggressive, exploding, etc. Feat wise we never saw Yamcha bad trait, while we saw all the bad traits from Bulma.

In the early RRA arc, Bulma doesn't like it that Yamcha is popular with the girls, yet you can see her explosive reaction.

Then again Toriyama wrote that Yamcha is a cheater in the Saiyan Saga, then he is a cheater. Although what chapter does Bulma say that Yamcha is a cheater? I thought it was right at the start of the Saiyan Saga but I don't see it.

<Moderator note: Indirect links to unofficial manga-reader site removed.>

[WittyUsername]

In the case of Bulma leaving Yamcha for Vegeta, it’s pretty obvious that the whole “Yamcha cheated on her” thing was just something Toriyama threw in so that Bulma wouldn’t look like a scumbag for hooking up with Vegeta. After the Freeza arc, Toriyama seemed to try and make Bulma out to be a more reasonable and levelheaded character, so her dumping Yamcha just so she could hook up with the guy who indirectly killed him probably would’ve reflected poorly on her, unless there was a better reason for it.

That maybe so! I am a big Bulma and Vegeta fan but even I will admit how Toriyama threw them together wasn’t the greatest of writing. It wasn’t until the Buu Saga that we even saw Vegeta cared about her and it wasn’t until BOG and Super that they finally got actual moments together.


But I digress that wasn’t the point I was making about misogyny. Often fans hate on female characters when the male author is at fault

Say what you will about Yamcha cheating. Maybe it’s not believable for his character up to that point. But fan’s theories that really Bulma cheated because they can’t accept it was Yamcha are steeped in misogyny. Of course the male character cannot be at fault even though the text literally says he is. It’s not wrong to say it is bad writing. But coming out with theories to say it was obvious Bulma who cheated and she is a Bitch is misogynistic. Blame Toriyama he wrote it, don’t hate on the female character.

The big problem with the whole “Yamcha cheated” thing is that we never got any hint of that ever being in character for him There’s nothing about his character that would suggest he’s the womanizing type. If anything, Bulma is the one who’s had a tendency to fawn over and throw herself at the opposite sex. Then there’s the fact that according to Toriyama years later, Yamcha apparently still hasn’t gotten over his fear of women.

Still, I do get your overall point.

Then again Toriyama wrote that Yamcha is a cheater in the Saiyan Saga, then he is a cheater. Although what chapter does Bulma say that Yamcha is a cheater? I thought it was in the Saiyan Saga but I don't see it.

I thought it was this chapter https://read.mangadad.com/Mangadad/drag ... -196/4.jpg but it isn't that chapter.

I don’t think Bulma ever suggested that Yamcha cheated on her during the Saiyan saga. We have no idea why she’s mad at him at that moment.

[jjgp1112]

I say it was a Ross/Rachel situation. THEY WERE ON A BREAK!!!!!!