Dragon Ball Z: Cooler Double Feature Discussion

[Tsukento]

Well that's not so terrible. Atleast I won't have to take out a Top disc to get to a bottom one as with the DF's and Season Sets.

I honestly hate that. It definitely would have been nicer to have one disc on the left side of the case, the other on the right.

[TheGreatness25]

But then that wouldn't leave room for that useless book that just has the covers of the "original releases" (the first three movies don't have the cover of the original cover).

[Acid_Reign]

Also, what resizing method did you use?

The very same shown in the screenshot you provided for VirtualDub Mod, using the resize filter and going with Precise Bicubic (A=-1.00). Only thing I did with Photoshop was paste and save.

Okay, cool. I had actually just selected that as an example; it isn’t necessarily my recommendation (which would probably be Lanczos, but the difference between that and Bicubic is hardly ever very obvious). You just have to make sure that whatever you’re comparing was resized using the exact same filter. A little difficult here when everyone is doing their own thing, I know, but that’s the ideal.

About the re-sizing... Iam using Metalwario64's screen caps from this thread. I don't have the DVD's. I have the Blu-Ray. If this isnt up to what you wanted then just ignore it. Sorry.

Yeah, it’s still a bit off, but if you don’t have the original discs then don’t worry about it. Although, you could post Blu-Ray screens…

I know Coolers face lines seem to be a bit off in where they meet into the next screen shot, but the colors are all there.

That isn’t your fault. The Toei and FUNi images actually are aligned differently. That’s another thing these shots are able to demonstrate, presuming they haven’t been altered. You can also see how the FUNi shot has blurrier details than the D.Box.

Time for even more movie 5 screens from the Dragon Box for comparison purposes. An interesting thing worth noting from what I've seen so far. If the double feature screens are right, then it shows a little more on the bottom than the Dragon Box does. HOWEVER, the Dragon Box shows more on the top than the double feature does.

Yeah, it is interesting. I actually pointed that out as well back on the first page.

For Funimation's re-releases of the movies they decided to release them in the proper format; however, they had to crop them by themselves. They zoomed out as much as possible to allow as much of the frame to be shown as possible, then they cropped it into widescreen. Toei's are not zoomed out quite as far as Funimation's. Because of all of this there will obviously be subtle differences.

I don’t think that’s quite right. If you look at the respective screenshots at the same size, you will notice that even if you align the details at certain points, there will still be other points that do not coincide; i.e., FUNi’s version seems to be “zoomed in” closer to the source than Toei’s. And, of course, it’s aligned differently, too, so you see slightly more of certain parts, and less of others, in comparison to the D.Box.

This is silly, just choose which one you like better.

What’s “silly” is having to choose at all. There’s no reason for FUNimation to alter the colors beyond restoring them to what they’re supposed to look like.

I have to say, I like the Double feature more. Regardless of what it's supposed to look like, Metal Cooler looks better without a greenish tint, and Goku's gi looks great.

So if someone thought it looked better to scribble all over the footage, “regardless of what it’s supposed to look like,” would that be okay too?

I really wish that we could have had bluish Cooler and green Namekian skies.

How about a greenish Coola and green Namekian skies? You know, the way they originally colored it?

That's what I was saying. I just think it's silly arguing over what form of screencaps people are taking.

Even after people take all the screenshots in the same way, if the person still doesn't like the one you like, more than likely we'll be hearing about how we haven't seen it in person so it doesn't really count.

Um, no. The screenshots being taken the same way is a prerequisite for uncompromised image comparison. It is entirely separate from the argument of which looks better.

You really cannot judge something from a screenshot. You have to view it on a proper display. I think these screenshot comparisons are rather pointless because of that.

Yes, you can. In fact, screenshots are often better for judgment because you:

1. Get to see the whole image (nothing is covered by overscan)
2. See the image at a 1:1 ratio (almost every conventional television on the market scales the image up or down in some way)
3. Can bypass unnecessary digital/analogue conversions which degrade the picture
4. Can compare and contrast images without constantly swapping DVDs

Granted, the TV is where most people will end up watching these things, so of course how it looks on there is more pertinent to the perceived quality of the encode, but it really makes no sense at all to try and talk about the differences between two versions of a movie with all of us looking at our respective TV sets and attempting to discuss the drastically different results we see due to differing hardware, configurations, settings, and viewing environments.

Not that computer viewing is without its own drawbacks, one of which is color representation: DVDs use the YV12 colorspace which has to be converted to RGB for computer playback, and this can throw the colors off—in fact, now that I think about it, this could be what is causing the “foggyness” described in the D.Box shots earlier*—but we’re already using computers, so why shouldn’t we display images with them?

Right, I agree, so why argue over jpg/png? I could see a purpose behind nlooking at them to get an idea of how it will look, but nobody should be pouring hours into thinking about it.

The choice of format affects image quality. You can not just display two images, both saved at arbitrarily different dimensions and/or compressions, point to one of them and say, “look how much better this one is!” The image below compares 4 different output formats side-by-side in Photoshop. Look at that, and then tell me that format doesn’t matter:

I'm really baffled by this. I don't see anything you're talking about in that cap aside from added brightness.

I compared the average color values in Photoshop, and the FUNi version had the relative properties I described. Although if you really aren’t seeing as big a color difference as I am it could be due to differences in eyesight and/or monitor calibration.

Well he is behind a big light after all. Hell it gives a more "in the movie" feel if you see it as Goku likely would.

It’s logically sound, sure, but regardless, it’s simply too bright for comfort.

I've gotta agree with Gozar, there's nothing wrong with the visual quality of this feature.

Sure, if you’re easily impressed by bright colors. I mean, it’s decent, but to say there’s nothing wrong with it is a bit of a stretch.

While the brighter colors are nice, they tend to become oversaturated at points.

Dragon Box
Double Feature

Dragon Box
Double Feature

Colors get changed and details get lost. Notice how in the first shot, the ground is brown in the Dragon Box. Yet the Double Feature pulls a green color out of no where. Not only this, but it's so dark that part of the ground becomes a black color, while Goku's hair becomes almost invisible.

The dark red in Goku's Kaio-ken in the Double Feature ends up drowning out quite a bit of outlining.

This is exactly what I’ve been talking about.

*In fact, we could probably fix this by embedding ICC profiles or doing colorspace conversions in Photoshop, but that’s an extra layer of complication that isn’t quite crucial to the process. Still, maybe I’ll post some manip’s later.

[Freeza Heika]

I really wish that we could have had bluish Cooler and green Namekian skies.

How about a greenish Coola and green Namekian skies? You know, the way they originally colored it?

I'm not a fan of the anime for its deep, artistic introspective on the human soul, or the analysis of the human role in nature through color. In other words, I'm not in it for the intent of the artists of the anime, who themselves broke away from Toriyama's original black and white. I'm in it for the storyline and the character interaction, so if I want blue Cooler and green Namek, then that is what I want and no amount bickering over its original colors is going to change my mind.

[Tsukento]

I'm not a fan of the anime for its deep, artistic introspective on the human soul, or the analysis of the human role in nature through color. In other words, I'm not in it for the intent of the artists of the anime, who themselves broke away from Toriyama's original black and white. I'm in it for the storyline and the character interaction, so if I want blue Cooler and green Namek, then that is what I want and no amount bickering over its original colors is going to change my mind.

Except a blue Coola wouldn't make sense. Coola at that point is made of metal. Metal would reflect the color surrounding it, thus giving him the green tint he has on Namek. That's also why the water in Namek looks green; because it's reflecting the color of the sky.

Having him blue in a green surrounding is nonsensical.

[Freeza Heika]

I'm not a fan of the anime for its deep, artistic introspective on the human soul, or the analysis of the human role in nature through color. In other words, I'm not in it for the intent of the artists of the anime, who themselves broke away from Toriyama's original black and white. I'm in it for the storyline and the character interaction, so if I want blue Cooler and green Namek, then that is what I want and no amount bickering over its original colors is going to change my mind.

Except a blue Coola wouldn't make sense. Coola at that point is made of metal. Metal would reflect the color surrounding it, thus giving him the green tint he has on Namek.

Having him blue in a green surrounding is nonsensical.

Two points:

1. Metal is all sorts of colors, and I don't believe that it is ever stated what kind of metal comprises his body.

PROOF:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1056/576 ... 5b.jpg?v=0
Notice all of the colors?
And some named examples.
Iron Oxide and Copper Oxide and Copper Sulfate ( a blue one)


2.I never said that it made sense, and that makes it no less awesome looking.

P.S. I only moonlight as a DB nerd. Primarily, I'm a science nerd.

[SSJ Helldog]

I have to say, I like the Double feature more. Regardless of what it's supposed to look like, Metal Cooler looks better without a greenish tint, and Goku's gi looks great.

So if someone thought it looked better to scribble all over the footage, “regardless of what it’s supposed to look like,” would that be okay too?

If the resulting footage looked better than the original, then yes, absolutely.

[Acid_Reign]

I'm not a fan of the anime for its deep, artistic introspective on the human soul, or the analysis of the human role in nature through color.

It has nothing to do with some kind of deep inner meaning. It has to do with leaving other people’s work alone.

In other words, I'm not in it for the intent of the artists of the anime, who themselves broke away from Toriyama's original black and white.

All manga is black and white. Color ink isn’t used because it’s expensive. But yes, because I’m sure they came up with all of those colors by themselves, with absolutely no input from him.

I'm in it for the storyline and the character interaction, so if I want blue Cooler and green Namek, then that is what I want and no amount bickering over its original colors is going to change my mind.

That’s all well and good, but just because you want it does not mean it should be on the disc. If the colors bother you that badly, you can change them yourself. I should not have to live with them.

If the resulting footage looked better than the original, then yes, absolutely.

But that’s the thing, though. “Better” is subjective. That doesn’t automatically mean “FREE FOR ALL FILTER FEST,” it means that you make it look like how it’s supposed to look, and let the consumers adjust it themselves if their preferences differ. Your opinion, or FUNi’s opinion, or anyone other than the original creator’s opinion, should not be foisted upon everyone that wants to watch the movie.

[Freeza Heika]

I'm not a fan of the anime for its deep, artistic introspective on the human soul, or the analysis of the human role in nature through color.

It has nothing to do with some kind of deep inner meaning. It has to do with leaving other people’s work alone.

In other words, I'm not in it for the intent of the artists of the anime, who themselves broke away from Toriyama's original black and white.

All manga is black and white. Color ink isn’t used because it’s expensive. But yes, because I’m sure they came up with all of those colors by themselves, with absolutely no input from him.

I'm in it for the storyline and the character interaction, so if I want blue Cooler and green Namek, then that is what I want and no amount bickering over its original colors is going to change my mind.

That’s all well and good, but just because you want it does not mean it should be on the disc. If the colors bother you that badly, you can change them yourself. I should not have to live with them.

1.The people creating the Dragonball anime may have worked hard, but they knew they weren't making an unalterable masterpiece, and at times many of the individual artists put obviously little effort into their work. Hence Lupin Vegeta III. So in terms altering some colors, don't act like someone wants to put a mustache on the Mona Lisa.

2.This ties into my last point. These artists, who had nothing to do with the actual story, created these colors on their own, without the intent of their color scheme being viewed as the end-all approach to coloring Dragonball. So once a again, don't act like some one is suggesting putting The Screamer in sepia tone.

3.I care about you having to see colors you don't want as much as you care about me having to see colors I don't want.

[Tsukento]

2.This ties into my last point. These artists, who had nothing to do with the actual story, created these colors on their own, without the intent of their color scheme being viewed as the end-all approach to coloring Dragonball. So once a again, don't act like some one is suggesting putting The Screamer in sepia tone.

Once again, Namek is green because of Toriyama.

Looking at Metal Coola's artwork, we can see he's silver. Not blue.

[Freeza Heika]

2.This ties into my last point. These artists, who had nothing to do with the actual story, created these colors on their own, without the intent of their color scheme being viewed as the end-all approach to coloring Dragonball. So once a again, don't act like some one is suggesting putting The Screamer in sepia tone.

Once again, Namek is green because of Toriyama.

Looking at Metal Coola's artwork, we can see he's silver. Not blue.

As far as Toriyama goes, yes. But, like I said, with this being a Toei exclusive story, he is colored by their contracted artists and art studios, which leads one to the aforementioned point.

[Acid_Reign]

1.The people creating the Dragonball anime may have worked hard, but they knew they weren't making an unalterable masterpiece, and at times many of the individual artists put obviously little effort into their work. Hence Lupin Vegeta III. So in terms altering some colors, don't act like someone wants to put a mustache on the Mona Lisa.

So basically, because there were some animation goofs at some points in the series, that means the colors are meaningless and should be changed to just whatever some guy at FUNimation feels like?

2.This ties into my last point. These artists, who had nothing to do with the actual story, created these colors on their own, without the intent of their color scheme being viewed as the end-all approach to coloring Dragonball. So once a again, don't act like some one is suggesting putting The Screamer in sepia tone.

Excuse me, but how do you know what the intent of the colorists was? And why would it be anything other than keeping their hard work intact?

3.I care about you having to see colors you don't want as much as you care about me having to see colors I don't want.

Like I said, if you want a blue Coola and green Namekian skies, that’s your prerogative; by all means, go hog-fucking-wild with your copy of the disc. But I shouldn’t have to adjust the colors back to what they should have been just because of an arbitrary decision that it “looks better this way.” I mean, you do you realize how ridiculous your argument is, right? That the look of DBZ is your mandate?

[BrollysKin]

To be honest I doubt screenshots are going to make those who already own dragonboxes to go out and buy the double features, or vice versa. At this point in the game I think the large majority have already decided which version they like better.

[Acid_Reign]

To be honest I doubt screenshots are going to make those who already own dragonboxes to go out and buy the double features, or vice versa. At this point in the game I think the large majority have already decided which version they like better.

You’re missing the point. Who said anyone was trying to change anyone else’s mind? I for one just like comparing the respective remastering processes (or lack thereof). It’s interesting to me.

[Tsukento]

So basically, because there were some animation goofs at some points in the series, that means the colors are meaningless and should be changed to just whatever some guy at FUNimation feels like?

Quick correction. Some guy outside of FUNimation who never got into the show prior to remastering it. :p

To be honest I doubt screenshots are going to make those who already own dragonboxes to go out and buy the double features, or vice versa. At this point in the game I think the large majority have already decided which version they like better.

Not for me, anyways. Only reason I'd buy the DVDs are for subs and to hear how the English dubs of the movies fair with the original music.

[Freeza Heika]

1.The people creating the Dragonball anime may have worked hard, but they knew they weren't making an unalterable masterpiece, and at times many of the individual artists put obviously little effort into their work. Hence Lupin Vegeta III. So in terms altering some colors, don't act like someone wants to put a mustache on the Mona Lisa.

So basically, because there were some animation goofs at some points in the series, that means the colors are meaningless and should be changed to just whatever some guy at FUNimation feels like?

2.This ties into my last point. These artists, who had nothing to do with the actual story, created these colors on their own, without the intent of their color scheme being viewed as the end-all approach to coloring Dragonball. So once a again, don't act like some one is suggesting putting The Screamer in sepia tone.

Excuse me, but how do you know what the intent of the colorists was? And why would it be anything other than keeping their hard work intact?

3.I care about you having to see colors you don't want as much as you care about me having to see colors I don't want.

Like I said, if you want a blue Coola and green Namekian skies, that’s your prerogative; by all means, go hog-fucking-wild with your copy of the disc. But I shouldn’t have to adjust the colors back to what they should have been just because of an arbitrary decision that it “looks better this way.” I mean, you do you realize how ridiculous your argument is, right? That the look of DBZ is your mandate?

My point is, Funimation is dishing out the Funimation version, not the Japanese version. If their intent for their version the anime diverges from the original, then quite frankly, I don't give a flying fuck. If I want the original version I'll buy it, and If I just want to own the story of Dragonball, then I'll buy the version that was licensed to my part of the world, without worrying about how blue something is or something else isn't. Now, when it comes down to me stating what I would like see, that is my prerogative. Notice how I said that I "wish" that, not " I hence forth decree"?

If you truly feel that the artists' true intentions were to create and end-all coloring scheme for Dragonball, then I salute you for your faith in the artistic skill of some animator sitting at a cubicle.

[Acid_Reign]

Quick correction. Some guy outside of FUNimation who never got into the show prior to remastering it. :p

Lol, well, I read recently on Amazon (don’t know if it was a reliable source or not) in a message allegedly from Franko that the decision to “go widescreen” so to speak was FUNimation’s, not his. If it’s true, it’s possible the decision to “go seizure” was as well.

My point is, Funimation is dishing out the Funimation version, not the Japanese version.

Um, actually, they’re dishing out the FUNimation version, the Japanese version, and the FUNimation version with the Japanese music. And guess what? They all share the same video track.

If their intent for their version the anime diverges from the original, then quite frankly, I don't give a flying fuck. If I want the original version I'll buy it, and If I just want to own the story of Dragonball, then I'll buy the version that was licensed to my part of the world, without worrying about how blue something is or something else isn't.

Okay, so if every color in every scene was changed to some other color, e.g., Piccolo is brown and Vegeta is neon pink and Goku alternates between purple and yellow, you’d be cool with that, because it’s FUNimation’s version so who cares? I mean, if that’s the case, why aren’t you just buying the VHS fansubs? Why do you even care about the DVD if image fidelity isn’t a concern to you?

Now, when it comes down to me stating what I would like see, that is my prerogative. Notice how I said that I "wish" that, not " I hence forth decree"?

But weren’t you basically asserting that having the original colors is unreasonable because you don’t prefer it that way?

If you truly feel that the artists' true intentions were to create and end-all coloring scheme for Dragonball, then I salute you for your faith in the artistic skill of some animator sitting at a cubicle.

Yeah, I’m sure they thought all that painting and coloring and shading they did was something they were hired to do “just because”… that’s why they spent so little time on it, I mean, it’s just going to wind up a grab-bag of colors, right? So who cares! Rip up those character sheets, boys, this here’s a fun zone!

[Freeza Heika]

Quick correction. Some guy outside of FUNimation who never got into the show prior to remastering it. :p

Lol, well, I read recently on Amazon (don’t know if it was a reliable source or not) in a message allegedly from Franko that the decision to “go widescreen” so to speak was FUNimation’s, not his. If it’s true, it’s possible the decision to “go seizure” was as well.

My point is, Funimation is dishing out the Funimation version, not the Japanese version.

Um, actually, they’re dishing out the FUNimation version, the Japanese version, and the FUNimation version with the Japanese music. And guess what? They all share the same video track.

If their intent for their version the anime diverges from the original, then quite frankly, I don't give a flying fuck. If I want the original version I'll buy it, and If I just want to own the story of Dragonball, then I'll buy the version that was licensed to my part of the world, without worrying about how blue something is or something else isn't.

Okay, so if every color in every scene was changed to some other color, e.g., Piccolo is brown and Vegeta is neon pink and Goku alternates between purple and yellow, you’d be cool with that, because it’s FUNimation’s version so who cares? I mean, if that’s the case, why aren’t you just buying the VHS fansubs? Why do you even care about the DVD if image fidelity isn’t a concern to you?

Now, when it comes down to me stating what I would like see, that is my prerogative. Notice how I said that I "wish" that, not " I hence forth decree"?

But weren’t you basically asserting that having the original colors is unreasonable because you don’t prefer it that way?

If you truly feel that the artists' true intentions were to create and end-all coloring scheme for Dragonball, then I salute you for your faith in the artistic skill of some animator sitting at a cubicle.

Yeah, I’m sure they thought all that painting and coloring and shading they did was something they were hired to do “just because”… that’s why they spent so little time on it, I mean, it’s just going to wind up a grab-bag of colors, right? So who cares! Rip up those character sheets, boys, this here’s a fun zone!

1.Funimation's version of course would take priority over any other version. Why? Because it's Funimation's version. They would like to make you happy, but they are more worried about their core dub audience more than the slightly smaller audience of the original in the U.S.
2.That is why I threw in the little side note about if I wanted the original. Your hypothetical is an extreme case where I would want the original, but fortunately that isn't what they did. Neither what I said that I wanted nor, what they actually did is such an outlandish change as neon pink Vegeta.
3.I don't ever remember saying that it was unreasonable. I said that I would simply prefer it that way, and maybe I haven't made this little note clear, sorry if some how I haven't; I would be happy with either the original colors or what I said that I'd like, because they all look fine, one just happens to be slightly more appealing visually to my eye than the other.
4.Some of the people that these images were assigned didn't have the option to take their time and make sure that they're beautiful, because they worked in understaffed offices. I'm sure they would have, given the option. But, what I am saying is that they didn't sit around making in-depth decisions about colors, to create the most perfect thing ever, so a little tinkering here and there isn't an insane proposition.

[Thanos6]

This reminds me of my own feelings on dub music.

I really like some of the dub tracks. I like the Perfect Cell theme, and I think Ginyu Transformation works better wtih Cell's death than the original Japanese does.

That said, even if they could have hired John Williams to do the dub tracks for free, they shouldn't have. They should have just left in the original music and let it stand or fall on its own.

Now, if they'd wanted to present dub music as an alternate audio track on the DVDs, I would have been all for that. "We like the original music, but here's some other music we think that also goes well with it. We hope you enjoy." That would have been nice, but it should have been optional. Not made the "default" dub music in TV broadcasts and on DVDs up until these big sets and DFs have been coming out.

[biohazard]

Right, I agree, so why argue over jpg/png? I could see a purpose behind nlooking at them to get an idea of how it will look, but nobody should be pouring hours into thinking about it.

The choice of format affects image quality. You can not just display two images, both saved at arbitrarily different dimensions and/or compressions, point to one of them and say, “look how much better this one is!” The image below compares 4 different output formats side-by-side in Photoshop. Look at that, and then tell me that format doesn’t matter:

Compare a png-24 image with a jpg-quality-100 one (not a jpg-quality-10...) and then tell us if you see any difference.
At the human eye there won't be any difference but the file size, smaller in the jpg image.



As you can see, even a jpg-70 image has very very few compression artifacts than you barely can see in this zoomed example.

Sorry for the off-topic, but if we can save some bandwidth and the image we will obtain is visually identical everyone will be happier.