Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

Fared well? I guess, if by fared well you mean got absolutely demolished without laying a finger on his opponent, while said opponent was talking down to him and not using any serious effort at all. 50% -70% Freeza did way better with a bigger gap; he bounced back from more hits and gave Goku a nose bleed with his Death Beam move (boss technique, btw) and slightly pushed him back with a kiai after briefly bursting his power to 70% (Goku was off guard, though).

[TheMightyOzaru]

Fared well? I guess, if by fared well you mean got absolutely demolished without laying a finger on his opponent, while said opponent was talking down to him and not using any serious effort at all. 50% -70% Freeza did way better with a bigger gap...

He fared better than Dodoria did against Vegeta .

[RandomGuy96]

I guess, but his only notable 'feats" were not dying in a few hits and dodging a single kick (with visible effort).

[TheMightyOzaru]

I guess, but his only notable 'feats" were not dying in a few hits and dodging a single kick (with visible effort).

True but it just shows the inconsistencies in the differences between BPs. 120,000,000 vs 150,000,000 works just fine based on this. Hell sometimes these gap inconsistencies can be explained through durability and strength differences. Nappa is hella massive which why he fared as well as he did despite such a big gap.

[RandomGuy96]

I never like the physical strength excuse (it means very little by this point), but it is shown that some people just have haxxed durability. Freeza and Vegeta being the prime examples. Goku, Nappa, and Android 19 also dabbled in it.

[Rocketman]

It's almost like power levels aren't everything.

[TheMightyOzaru]

It's almost like power levels aren't everything.

Woah! Back up a bit man !

[Kamiccolo9]

It's almost like power levels aren't everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCpMIe8FjEU

[Victorious]

Yeah, Vegeta had the upper hand, forcing Goku to use x3 to quickly defeat him. So?

Goku was helpless, quickly realized he was completely surpassed and had to go into a life threatening KKx3. Freeza could actually damage Goku.

He is a coward who goes nuts when he realizes Vegeta is stronger than him, and doesn't seem to have very good physical attributes, as he dies in two hits from Vegeta, when Vegeta had previously shrugged off more hits from Goku plus a x4 Kamehameha with the exact same gap. Hell, you can even say that Vegeta beat Goku with a 75% gap. I suspect it may have something to do with Cui not being on guard, or losing his courage and right state of mind, making him weaker. Vegeta and Freeza had no such fears.

Vegeta beat Goku with a 75 percent gap? When Goku was in KKx3 Vegeta did not get one punch or kick in, Vegeta got decimated. Yeah he regained his balance after holding his stomach in agony for a few minutes..he couldn't even stand up on his own two feet initially. If Goku could have stayed in KKx3 and also went aggressive and went for the kill after he slammed Vegeta into the rock i'm sure he could have finished him off pretty quick. But obviously Goku had to back out of KKx3 because it was semi suicidal to stay in it.

Dodoria mindlessly lashed out at Vegeta, who ran behind him while he was off guard and grabbed his arms. Then he blasted him in the back while he was trying to run away (note: unguarded shots mean pain). On top of that he could've had the potential courage and state of mind loss, like Cui. Didn't seem like an overwhelming display of power to me, since it wasn't really a fight.

He got his arms snapped back..complete strength feat and one shotted with a blast. That's like SSJ Goku vs 50 percent Goku type feats. Goku couldn't just hold Freeza in place and one shot him with a blast.

Zarbon doesn't have to be less than 30,000. I actually have him at exactly 30,000, hell he can be over. There's also the fact that he kind of caught Vegeta off guard (Vegeta was smug and sure of himself after dispatching Dodoria), and Vegeta's techniques and physical durability are inferior to Freeza's.

Vegeta survived a KKx4 KHH 32,000 BP to 18,000 to the face, how is he less durable than Freeza? Freeza actually matched Goku's speed initially too...Vegeta couldnt match Zarbon for shit, he got decimated.

When power levels are fairly close, of course the person with superior experience, skill, training, and especially ki sensing is going to have a huge advantage on a guy who is called "pathetic" and "rusty" several times and doesn't seem to have any special or notable training or techniques. And again, ki sensing: big advantage.

[/quote]

Freeza doesn't have ki sensing either. When was Zarbon called Rusty? Anyway i'm sure he's fought at Max power a lot more recently than Freeza has. Freeza should have more 'rust'.

Anyway, the point was these were all 75 to 90 percent gaps or so and they were completely one sidded. So there is no proof in the manga that a guy with around an 80% gap can compete with his superior and half a dozen counter examples that he can't.

[Victorious]

18k Vegeta vs KKx2 16k Goku
KKx3 Goku vs 18k Vegeta
24k Vegeta vs 18k Cui
24k Vegeta vs >18k Dodoria
24k Vegeta vs >18k Zarbon
<30k monster Zarbon vs 24k Vegeta

kinda kill any chance of Freeza being 80% of Goku. I'd find it very hard to believe Goku's gap on Freeza is bigger or as big as Vegeta's gap on Dodoria. That's just laughable

Nappa fared pretty well against Goku despite Goku being twice as strong . Nappa can't be greater than 5,000 since he freaked out at Goku having a BP of 5,000:
Chapter: 222 (DBZ 28), P4.1
Vegeta: “Someone with a battle ability of about 5,000...!!”
Nappa: “5,000?! That’s impossible! It has to be a mistake.”
Vegeta: “It’s truly an unthinkable figure for the old Kakarot. What’s more, the people here are able to alter their figures…So 5,000 could just be his minimum.”

Yeah he freaked out a bit but so did Vegeta.

When Goku appeared Nappa started talking shit again.

[Kaboom]

There's a bit of a trend, yes, but a trend is not proof in and of itself. A few alternatively-explainable examples aren't enough to deem something else contrary to them impossible or "laughable."

[Saiga]

Anyway, I have a theory that Goku and Vegeta were allowed to keep some of Vegetto's power after defusing in the anime. It explains seemingly impossible feats and statements, like SS Goku one-shotting Ultimate Gohan in Buu's mind, SS2 Goku fighting on par with someone that he already said was on a whole different level than Buuhan (when Goku was previously trash to Buutenks), and SS2 Vegeta defeating Gotenks in Buu's mind.

Huh, I actually have a theory like that myself. Vegetto splitting in such an unnatural way left Goku and Vegeta with half of Vegetto's power each, leading them to easily defeat the clones of the absorbees. That makes SS2 Goku exactly equal to SS1 Vegetto, and makes sense as to why he'd use that form against Pure Boo in the anime.

[TheMightyOzaru]

18k Vegeta vs KKx2 16k Goku
KKx3 Goku vs 18k Vegeta
24k Vegeta vs 18k Cui
24k Vegeta vs >18k Dodoria
24k Vegeta vs >18k Zarbon
<30k monster Zarbon vs 24k Vegeta

kinda kill any chance of Freeza being 80% of Goku. I'd find it very hard to believe Goku's gap on Freeza is bigger or as big as Vegeta's gap on Dodoria. That's just laughable

Nappa fared pretty well against Goku despite Goku being twice as strong . Nappa can't be greater than 5,000 since he freaked out at Goku having a BP of 5,000:
Chapter: 222 (DBZ 28), P4.1
Vegeta: “Someone with a battle ability of about 5,000...!!”
Nappa: “5,000?! That’s impossible! It has to be a mistake.”
Vegeta: “It’s truly an unthinkable figure for the old Kakarot. What’s more, the people here are able to alter their figures…So 5,000 could just be his minimum.”

Yeah he freaked out a bit but so did Vegeta.

When Goku appeared Nappa started talking shit again.

Yeah no. Vegeta is a bit surprised that Goku got that powerful that quickly. Nappa on the other hand is like Oh shit! I can't handle that. I suggest actually reading that strength checker I posted.

[RandomGuy96]

Goku was helpless, quickly realized he was completely surpassed and had to go into a life threatening KKx3. Freeza could actually damage Goku.

Goku never made any real effort to fight Vegeta in a long battle with that power, because he knew it would be pointless, as he was at a stamina disadvantage and a power disadvantage, giving him basically no chance of winning. Freeza didn't and actually made an effort to fight, mostly because he didn't have another power up to go to.

Vegeta beat Goku with a 75 percent gap? When Goku was in KKx3 Vegeta did not get one punch or kick in, Vegeta got decimated. Yeah he regained his balance after holding his stomach in agony for a few minutes..he couldn't even stand up on his own two feet initially. If Goku could have stayed in KKx3 and also went aggressive and went for the kill after he slammed Vegeta into the rock i'm sure he could have finished him off pretty quick. But obviously Goku had to back out of KKx3 because it was semi suicidal to stay in it.

Vegeta shrugged off Goku's hits and blasted him with a Galick Gun. Goku countered, but Vegeta's technique was superior, forcing Goku to use the life threatening kaio-ken x4. Vegeta ate that blast and just got mad. After that Goku was so exhausted and his body so stressed that if Vegeta hadn't wasted power on the power ball + transformation, he could have just easily killed him. So yeah, he beat someone at 24,000 while just being 18,000 himself, using his techniques, perseverance, and toughness.

He couldn't finish off Vegeta because Vegeta is extremely tough. If gaps were consistent 100% of the time, Goku simply would've punched through him in the first hit and then blown him up.

He got his arms snapped back..complete strength feat and one shotted with a blast. That's like SSJ Goku vs 50 percent Goku type feats. Goku couldn't just hold Freeza in place and one shot him with a blast.

He got taken off guard after wildly lashing out and then restrained. Then he got killed in one shot to the back while running away. As said, off guard shots = pain. There's also the fact that ki is made up of vitality, courage, and being in the right state of mind. Dodoria didn't have two of these things when he learned Vegeta was slightly stronger than him.

Vegeta survived a KKx4 KHH 32,000 BP to 18,000 to the face, how is he less durable than Freeza? Freeza actually matched Goku's speed initially too...Vegeta couldnt match Zarbon for shit, he got decimated.

Freeza survived a 150,000,000 (at least) blast to the face while he was cut in half and had no ki left. Like, really, Goku said he barley gave him enough ki to move (and I think he implied that if he gave the same amount to anyone else, it wouldn't even be enough to do that) and Freeza still survived. While bleeding out from cutting himself in half. What do you think that his power level was when he was missing half his body and could barley move? 1,000,000? He also shrugged off a beating from someone over twice as powerful as him.

Again, many reasons for that. The simplest one is that Zarbon is simply above 30,0000, and is actually 32 or 33 thousand. It's not impossible. Another one is that Vegeta was getting arrogant with his new power and was taken off guard (he does just stand there in shock while Zarbon charges). Or speed =/= power level, which is shown repeatedly. Not that I really saw any evidence that Vegeta was completely outmatched in speed anyway. He at least dodged Zarbon a few times, and Zarbon resorted to distracting him before blitzing, which he wouldn't do if Vegeta was already so much slower than him.

When was Zarbon called Rusty?

I don't know the exact chapter, but I distinctly remember Vegeta saying that he's gotten complacent with being Freeza's lap dog.

Anyway i'm sure he's fought at Max power a lot more recently than Freeza has. Freeza should have more 'rust'.

But he doesn't have Freeza's physical attributes or techniques. I also don't think that Freeza is really that unskilled, considering the wide variety of powers he is shown demonstrating.

Anyway, the point was these were all 75 to 90 percent gaps or so and they were completely one sidded. So there is no proof in the manga that a guy with around an 80% gap can compete with his superior and half a dozen counter examples that he can't.

I guess Recoome vs Vegeta didn't happen?

Those aren't counter examples as they don't actually counter the evidence. The circumstances were much different and aren't even consistent among themselves.

Aside from that, your list just seems like it defies many heavy implications from the manga. Monster Zarbon was implied to be at least as strong as Vegeta, as Vegeta never relied on his new strength to give him an advantage, and instead made a bigger deal of the fact that Zarbon will come at him off guard (then he compliments himself on it after throwing sand in Zarbon's eyes and spamming ki blasts, after which he states that Zarbon's power fell a lot). Freeza was shown to be MUCH weaker than Goku. Piccolo was heavily implied to be in the same tier as the Super Saiyans at the Cell Games and at least superior to Semi-Cell, but here he's for some reason nowhere near the base saiyans and forever weaker than Imperfect Cell. Kaioshin has feats that also put him in the same tier as the Super Saiyans, yet he's weaker than Imperfect Cell here as well. Et cetera.

Not to mention that the numbers just seem way too damn high...

Huh, I actually have a theory like that myself. Vegetto splitting in such an unnatural way left Goku and Vegeta with half of Vegetto's power each, leading them to easily defeat the clones of the absorbees. That makes SS2 Goku exactly equal to SS1 Vegetto, and makes sense as to why he'd use that form against Pure Boo in the anime.

This would also explain why Goku is seemingly so haxxed in the movies.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Except in movie 12... Janemba is confirmed stronger than Hirudegarn.

[Saiga]

So, after a few things RandomGuy96 said in the Versus thread, I re-read the Mr. Boo/Pure Boo fight (yay for my VizBigs!) and realized the battle was far closer than I had previously thought. So, I wanted to adjust my Boo numbers. My current numbers are:

Initial Fat Boo/Mr Boo: 7,200,000,000
---Full Power: 28,800,000,000

Pure Evil Boo: 21,600,000,000

Evil Boo: 72,000,000,000

Pure Boo: 30,000,000,000

Initial Fattie was at 7,200,000,000 because Vegeta was beating him up before he got angry, and I put Mr Boo at that level because I thought that Initial Boo was that strong because he wasn't using his evil side's power yet... so Mr Boo would only be that strong. However, being less than 1/4 of Pure Boo's strength doesn't work at all, so that leaves me unsure of where to put him.

The first thing I tried was dividing Evil Boo's current power up into Good Boo and Pure Evil Boo. With a 40/60 split, I had battle powers of 28,800,000 and 43,200,000,000... huh. So that would mean that Fat Boo would be very close to Pure Boo, probably too close. Evil Boo actually turns out stronger than Pure Boo but I don't have a problem with that at all.

Hmm... I don't know where to take it from here. Any suggestions?

[RandomGuy96]

Nothing wrong with having Pure Evil Buu a lot stronger than Kid. He has better feats anyway.

Just make the split more one sided. A Goku vs Freeza type gap should work well for Pure Buu vs Good Buu, while Pure Evil Buu seemed a lot more dominant over Good Buu. IIRC Good Buu couldn't do anything to him.

[Saiga]

I suppose that's what I'll end up doing. A 35/65 split seems sufficient to me. I will probably end up changing the numbers of Evil Boo and such down the line but as long as I have the split decided on, that's the main thing. Thanks!

[PerfectFreeza]

I would like to mention something about Buu from Daizenshuu 7:
''He killed the North and West Kaioshin, absorbed the South Kaioshin, and then when he took in the gentle heart of the Dai Kaioshin, his ferociousness and power were somewhat weakened.''
That would mean Fatty isn't that far behind Pure and he split into the two Buus, meaning Pure Evil can't be even equal to Pure Buu.

[Saiga]

Sure he can. As I said, I was dividing Evil Boo's power among Mr. and Pure Evil instead of Fat Boo's power.