Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PFM18]

My power list.

Mastered UI Goku
Jiren
UI Goku (vs Jiren)
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta (after power up against Toppo)
Destroyer Toppo
SSJ2 Kefla > / = Initial UI Goku
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta
SSB Goku Kaioken x20 = Aniraza
SSB Goku Kaioken x10
SSB Goku Kaioken x2 / Base Toppo
Super Speed Mode Dyspo
SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta /Android 17 / Golden Frieza
Ultimate Gohan = Dyspo (strength only) > Hit (no time-skip)
Mastered LSSJ Kale > / = Ritual Form Goku
SSJ3 Goku
SSJ2 Goku
SSJ1 Goku
SSJ Caulifla / SSJ Cabba
Base Goku / Base Vegeta / Final Form Frieza
Base Caulifla / Base Cabba
SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga)
Buuhan
Buutenks
Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga)
SSJ3 Gotenks > / = Super Buu
Mr. Buu

Why do you lump Cabba and Caulifla together? Caulifla is way stronger. Cabba was even with Vegeta in the U6 Arc and Caulifla is even with the Base Saiyans in the ToP arc. assuming that Cabba hasn't trained since then,(or atleast gotten a significant boost) then Caulifla should be atleast 10x stronger than Cabba. This fits with the episode where they were introduced.

[supercat]

My power list.

Mastered UI Goku
Jiren
UI Goku (vs Jiren)
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta (after power up against Toppo)
Destroyer Toppo
SSJ2 Kefla > / = Initial UI Goku
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta
SSB Goku Kaioken x20 = Aniraza
SSB Goku Kaioken x10
SSB Goku Kaioken x2 / Base Toppo
Super Speed Mode Dyspo
SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta /Android 17 / Golden Frieza
Ultimate Gohan = Dyspo (strength only) > Hit (no time-skip)
Mastered LSSJ Kale > / = Ritual Form Goku
SSJ3 Goku
SSJ2 Goku
SSJ1 Goku
SSJ Caulifla / SSJ Cabba
Base Goku / Base Vegeta / Final Form Frieza
Base Caulifla / Base Cabba
SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga)
Buuhan
Buutenks
Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga)
SSJ3 Gotenks > / = Super Buu
Mr. Buu

Why do you lump Cabba and Caulifla together? Caulifla is way stronger. Cabba was even with Vegeta in the U6 Arc and Caulifla is even with the Base Saiyans in the ToP arc. assuming that Cabba hasn't trained since then,(or atleast gotten a significant boost) then Caulifla should be atleast 10x stronger than Cabba. This fits with the episode where they were introduced.

Well I have them in the same tier more or less, with Caulifla being the stronger of the two. I suppose the 10x gap between them would work too, but that would mean the gap between Cabba and Vegeta would be pretty enormous no? But either way, moving Cabba down a tier is probably better. Between Cabba and Vegeta (with each fighting at the same form), I feel that Cabba could put up somewhat of a fight, but Vegeta has the ability to readily put him in his place if he got serious.

Mastered UI Goku
Jiren
UI Goku (vs Jiren)
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta (after power up against Toppo)
Destroyer Toppo
SSJ2 Kefla > / = Initial UI Goku
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta
SSB Goku Kaioken x20 = Aniraza
SSB Goku Kaioken x10
SSB Goku Kaioken x2 / Base Toppo
Super Speed Mode Dyspo
SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta /Android 17 / Golden Frieza
Ultimate Gohan = Dyspo (strength only) > Hit (no time-skip)
Mastered LSSJ Kale > / = Ritual Form Goku
SSJ3 Goku
SSJ2 Goku
SSJ1 Goku
SSJ Caulifla
SSJ Cabba
Base Goku / Base Vegeta / Final Form Frieza
Base Caulifla
Base Cabba
SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga)
Buuhan
Buutenks
Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga)
SSJ3 Gotenks > / = Super Buu
Mr. Buu

[PFM18]

My power list.

Mastered UI Goku
Jiren
UI Goku (vs Jiren)
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta (after power up against Toppo)
Destroyer Toppo
SSJ2 Kefla > / = Initial UI Goku
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta
SSB Goku Kaioken x20 = Aniraza
SSB Goku Kaioken x10
SSB Goku Kaioken x2 / Base Toppo
Super Speed Mode Dyspo
SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta /Android 17 / Golden Frieza
Ultimate Gohan = Dyspo (strength only) > Hit (no time-skip)
Mastered LSSJ Kale > / = Ritual Form Goku
SSJ3 Goku
SSJ2 Goku
SSJ1 Goku
SSJ Caulifla / SSJ Cabba
Base Goku / Base Vegeta / Final Form Frieza
Base Caulifla / Base Cabba
SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga)
Buuhan
Buutenks
Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga)
SSJ3 Gotenks > / = Super Buu
Mr. Buu

Why do you lump Cabba and Caulifla together? Caulifla is way stronger. Cabba was even with Vegeta in the U6 Arc and Caulifla is even with the Base Saiyans in the ToP arc. assuming that Cabba hasn't trained since then,(or atleast gotten a significant boost) then Caulifla should be atleast 10x stronger than Cabba. This fits with the episode where they were introduced.

Well I have them in the same tier more or less, with Caulifla being the stronger of the two. I suppose the 10x gap between them would work too, but that would mean the gap between Cabba and Vegeta would be pretty enormous no? But either way, moving Cabba down a tier is probably better. Between Cabba and Vegeta (with each fighting at the same form), I feel that Cabba could put up somewhat of a fight, but Vegeta has the ability to readily put him in his place if he got serious.

Mastered UI Goku
Jiren
UI Goku (vs Jiren)
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta (after power up against Toppo)
Destroyer Toppo
SSJ2 Kefla > / = Initial UI Goku
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta
SSB Goku Kaioken x20 = Aniraza
SSB Goku Kaioken x10
SSB Goku Kaioken x2 / Base Toppo
Super Speed Mode Dyspo
SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta /Android 17 / Golden Frieza
Ultimate Gohan = Dyspo (strength only) > Hit (no time-skip)
Mastered LSSJ Kale > / = Ritual Form Goku
SSJ3 Goku
SSJ2 Goku
SSJ1 Goku
SSJ Caulifla
SSJ Cabba
Base Goku / Base Vegeta / Final Form Frieza
Base Caulifla
Base Cabba
SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga)
Buuhan
Buutenks
Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga)
SSJ3 Gotenks > / = Super Buu
Mr. Buu

The gap SHOULD be enormous between Vegeta and Cabba. Especially since Vegeta in base performed better against Monna than Cabba did as a SSJ. From the U6 tournament to the events after the FT arc Goku and Vegeta got atleast 10x stronger from what we saw against Hit, and there's no reason to believe Cabba has caught up with them.

[supercat]

Why do you lump Cabba and Caulifla together? Caulifla is way stronger. Cabba was even with Vegeta in the U6 Arc and Caulifla is even with the Base Saiyans in the ToP arc. assuming that Cabba hasn't trained since then,(or atleast gotten a significant boost) then Caulifla should be atleast 10x stronger than Cabba. This fits with the episode where they were introduced.

Well I have them in the same tier more or less, with Caulifla being the stronger of the two. I suppose the 10x gap between them would work too, but that would mean the gap between Cabba and Vegeta would be pretty enormous no? But either way, moving Cabba down a tier is probably better. Between Cabba and Vegeta (with each fighting at the same form), I feel that Cabba could put up somewhat of a fight, but Vegeta has the ability to readily put him in his place if he got serious.

Mastered UI Goku
Jiren
UI Goku (vs Jiren)
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta (after power up against Toppo)
Destroyer Toppo
SSJ2 Kefla > / = Initial UI Goku
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta
SSB Goku Kaioken x20 = Aniraza
SSB Goku Kaioken x10
SSB Goku Kaioken x2 / Base Toppo
Super Speed Mode Dyspo
SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta /Android 17 / Golden Frieza
Ultimate Gohan = Dyspo (strength only) > Hit (no time-skip)
Mastered LSSJ Kale > / = Ritual Form Goku
SSJ3 Goku
SSJ2 Goku
SSJ1 Goku
SSJ Caulifla
SSJ Cabba
Base Goku / Base Vegeta / Final Form Frieza
Base Caulifla
Base Cabba
SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga)
Buuhan
Buutenks
Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga)
SSJ3 Gotenks > / = Super Buu
Mr. Buu

The gap SHOULD be enormous between Vegeta and Cabba. Especially since Vegeta in base performed better against Monna than Cabba did as a SSJ. From the U6 tournament to the events after the FT arc Goku and Vegeta got atleast 10x stronger from what we saw against Hit, and there's no reason to believe Cabba has caught up with them.

Oh yeah definitely I agree that Goku and Vegeta got at least 10x stronger after the Universe 6 Tournament. I sometimes forget the extent of which they powered up between the Universe 6 Tournament and Zamasu's defeat. But yeah, with that factored in, Cabba should be nothing to Vegeta.

[Miracles]

So, after Goku defeated Jiren or at least knocked the poker face out of him, and Freeza and 17 stand up to him in 131, how strong do you guys think Jiren was? and how strong did he get after that nakama boost from Toppo?

Before Freeza engaged Jiren he told him he didn't sense that absolute strength anymore he had earlier.
Proof of that is how Golden Freeza could trade blows with Jiren who was even breathing heavy afterwards.
The nakama boost wasn't much either due to him being fatigue and it took a base Freeza and a half SSJ Goku to take him out.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So, after Goku defeated Jiren or at least knocked the poker face out of him, and Freeza and 17 stand up to him in 131, how strong do you guys think Jiren was? and how strong did he get after that nakama boost from Toppo?

Before Freeza engaged Jiren he told him he didn't sense that absolute strength anymore he had earlier.
Proof of that is how Golden Freeza could trade blows with Jiren who was even breathing heavy afterwards.
The nakama boost wasn't much either due to him being fatigue and it took a base Freeza and a half SSJ Goku to take him out.

To be fair, one's personality and emotional state play a heavy role in affecting how one fights in this series.

In the very same fight, Goku and Freeza were able to land blows and actually hurt Jiren, whom couldn't even muster up the energy to tank or block, yet not more than a few seconds later, he flies at 17 who blasts him and does nothing.

Seems like landing solid blows when your opponent isn't able to guard or take your hits is VERY potent in a fight.

[Bullza]

Someone recently brought up how Frost easily kicked Chappil off the arena whereas Base Goku couldn't budge him as point as to why the latter is stronger.

Some people look down on the mixing and matching so if you're one of those then ignore this.

But what I also noticed is that Super Saiyan Vegeta easily overwhelmed Hyssop in the anime whereas in the manga Piccolo was actually having a bit of a tough with him.

Does that suggest Super Saiyan Goku / Vegeta would be above Piccolo who in turn was above Super Saiyan 2 Gohan?

At the same time Piccolo did also beat Bergamo with little effort and Bergamo was a match for Base Goku.

So this it would work out like this Super Saiyan Goku > Piccolo ~ Super Saiyan 2 Gohan > Base Goku

[supercat]

Even by the ToP, Piccolo shouldn't be anywhere near SSJ Goku / Vegeta (ToP). There was a pretty clear implication during his sparring match against Goku and Tien that he's at most, equal to Base Goku. But then again, considering how well Goku tanked Piccolo's attack, I'd say it's quite likely that Goku is the vastly stronger of the two.

Base Goku by this point is likely a bit stronger than a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto from the Buu saga while Piccolo is at most a tad stronger than a hypothetical SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga).

Base Goku > SSJ3 Vegetto (Buu saga) = Base Goku (Merged Zamasu battle) >> Base Gohan (after training) > / = SSJ2 Vegetto (Buu saga) > / = Piccolo > SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) >> Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

[ZombieVito]

Someone recently brought up how Frost easily kicked Chappil off the arena whereas Base Goku couldn't budge him as point as to why the latter is stronger.

Some people look down on the mixing and matching so if you're one of those then ignore this.

But what I also noticed is that Super Saiyan Vegeta easily overwhelmed Hyssop in the anime whereas in the manga Piccolo was actually having a bit of a tough with him.

Does that suggest Super Saiyan Goku / Vegeta would be above Piccolo who in turn was above Super Saiyan 2 Gohan?

At the same time Piccolo did also beat Bergamo with little effort and Bergamo was a match for Base Goku.

So this it would work out like this Super Saiyan Goku > Piccolo ~ Super Saiyan 2 Gohan > Base Goku

I actually have been thinking Piccolo is SS tier for a while now.

- A Super writer said Frost > Piccolo still.
- Going by their expressions I don't think Piccolo or Gohan (Without Ultimate) would have been able to take on the entire U9 team like Frost did.
- Having rewatched the tag team fight on E90, Gohan does not rival base Goku at all. Even after barely surviving Piccolo's attack and getting tired, Goku still blocked Gohan's surprise punch with no problem at all.
- Most importantly if Piccolo had surpass Cabba or Frost it should have been said at least.

[Bullza]

Did a writer say Frost was above Piccolo? I sort of recall something like that.

Piccolo is an odd one to place as well.

In the manga he's definitely not Super Saiyan level. Frieza told Frost that Super Saiyan Goku would be too much for him and the way the fight with Universe 9 played out does make it seem like Frost is also above Piccolo and Base Gohan.

Aside from that there's not a lot to go, he's implied to be below Buu but is stronger than Base Goku or not? There isn't anything to go on.

In the anime he seems to be on par with Super Saiyan 2 Gohan but he's apparently weaker than Ultimate Gohan from the Buu saga. So he probably should be weaker than Base Goku though it would mean that Super Saiyan 2 Gohan would also be weaker than Base Goku.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Piccolo was in no way equal or stronger than SSJ2 Gohan. It's made clear in the fight and the supplementing dialogue that the only reason Piccolo won is because Gohan has the habit of letting his guard down. Prior to Gohan letting his guard down, Piccolo didn't land a single hit and Gohan had the advantage. And Goku needs the equivalent Super Saiyan form in order to match Gohan.

As far as Goku withstanding Piccolo's attack in base, we already have similar instances like Kale redirecting SSJG Goku's charged ki attack with brute strength even though she isn't even in the same tier as him.

I'm pretty sure it was also made clear that the fighters weren't going out all of the time in order to conserve energy. So that explains Piccolo vs Hyssop. Piccolo going all out against U9 would've landed him in a similar situation to Frost. Piccolo easily defeated Bergamo and the latter is relative to the Base Saiyans.

Ultimate Gohan(Boo arc)>SSJ2 Gohan>SSJ Vegeta=SSJ Goku=Final Form Frieza(TOP)>Final Form Frost(TOP)>Piccolo>SSJ Gohan>Base Goku>=Bergamo>Boo>Basil=Lavender

This seems to be the most likely chain.

[PFM18]

Ultimate Gohan(Boo arc)>SSJ2 Gohan>SSJ Vegeta=SSJ Goku=Final Form Frieza(TOP)>Final Form Frost(TOP)>Piccolo>SSJ Gohan>Base Goku>=Bergamo>Boo>Basil=Lavender

What?? How could all those characters be weaker rhan Buu arc Ultimate Gohan? Pretty much every relevant character in DBS surpasses everything in DBZ.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

No evidence of that. Just a random statement. Basil isn't stronger than everything in dbz. And since Gohan was relative to Goku in the same form while he was still weaker than his Boo arc strength, that's how it scales. And Piccolo lost to the same Boo arc Ultimate Power. The same Piccolo that easily beat Bergamo whom is comparable to Base Goku.

[Bullza]

Even before Gohan dropped his guard, he only landed one hit on Piccolo himself. Piccolo while still wearing the weights had no problem beating Super Saiyan Gohan so without the weights it makes sense he'd be around his Super Saiyan 2 level.

Though yes not all characters are far above the Z level. Basil did lose to Good Buu. The problem however is that Bergamo was on par with Base Goku who in turn was vastly more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. Which creates a huge discrepancy between the Trio De Dangers.

It would also make no sense then for Base Goku to be that strong and then for Base Gohan to be on a similar level because of how they said he wasn't as strong as he used to be.

Infact going by FighterZ, Gohan isn't even as strong as he was in the Cell Games by Post Universe 6 Saga.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

The discrepancy between the Trio de dangers is what it is. Bergamo is comparable to Base Goku and the latter was relative to Slim Boo. Fat Boo was too much even for a drugged Basil. And for whatever it's worth, Bergamo didn't consider Boo a worthy opponent based on him only calling Gohan a worthy foe after seeing him fight.

It was stated by Future Trunks that Gohan was still weaker than his Cell games power at the beginning of the Black arc so we already knew that. He only regained the majority of his power at the end of that arc.

[supercat]

What?? How could all those characters be weaker rhan Buu arc Ultimate Gohan? Pretty much every relevant character in DBS surpasses everything in DBZ.

I agree, there's little to no chance that anyone relevant would lose to the likes of SSJ Vegetto or anyone else from the Buu saga. Final Form Frieza in particular was on par with a Base Goku that should have at least been SSJ Vegetto-tier (if not a good amount stronger) by the time of RoF. Bergamo also fighting on par with Base Goku (who by that point should be stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto) strongly implies he too is at a level that far eclipses anything from the Buu saga. I don't even like the Trio De Danger, but I honestly can't see someone like Buu standing up to a character who could tangle with ToP Base Goku. In any case, Basil losing to Buu doesn't mean Bergamo has to be around that caliber.

The whole SSJ Gohan vs Goku fight was more than likely a quick sparring match that wasn't meant to be taken seriously. Between Gohan's demeanor and the overall setting, Goku was more than likely playing around. I find it a tad odd that a number of good feats are labeled as outliers or filler yet a gag scene between Goku and Gohan is taken so seriously. Also, it's very unlikely Piccolo is at all close to current SSJ Goku / Vegeta when he couldn't even do a thing against Base Goku. Going off of feats alone, Android 18 should be closer to Base Goku and Vegeta; she did defeat Giant Ribrianne and Tupper after all. I'm honestly not even sure if Piccolo would be capable of something like that at this point. Base Goku / Vegeta > / = Bergamo >>> SSJ3 Vegetto > SSJ2 Vegetto / Base Gohan > SSJ Vegetto >> Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > Lavender > / = Basil

[PFM18]

No evidence of that. Just a random statement. Basil isn't stronger than everything in dbz. And since Gohan was relative to Goku in the same form while he was still weaker than his Boo arc strength, that's how it scales. And Piccolo lost to the same Boo arc Ultimate Power. The same Piccolo that easily beat Bergamo whom is comparable to Base Goku.

You are basing this on your own interpretation of a singular scene. Goku and Gohan were not relative to each other in the same form. Goku had a sparring match with his son who he knows wasn't training very seriously or very frequently, obviously he isn't going to go all out. It was just a friendly sparring match. Piccolo losing to the same Ultimate Gohan could possibly hold water but it doesn't give credence to the notion that Goku in base isn't dramatically stronger than Ultimate Gohan from the Buu arc. The fact that:

1. Gohan, who had probably not had a dramatic dropoff in power from ROF, was dominated by First Form Freeza, then Base form Goku goes and beats Freeza even after he goes into his Final Form and becomes atleast a hundred times stronger.
2. Goku competes with Beerus in his base form. (As opposed to being flicked by Beerus previously in his SSJ3 form.)
3. Copy Vegeta completely dominates SSJ3 Gotenks in his base form and Goku fights evenly with him.
4. Buu, after powering up significantly, is still only relative to Goku in his base form when Goku appears to not even be taking it seriously.
5. Goku, after SSG was impled to be being superior to SSJ3 Vegetto several times, infused this power in his SSJ form.

And the list goes on. Based on the evidence we have in the series, it is obviously clear that Goku was holding back against Gohan in their sparring match and it is clear that even in Base form he is currently leaps and bounds above everything in DBZ and the same goes for Vegeta.

Infact going by FighterZ, Gohan isn't even as strong as he was in the Cell Games by Post Universe 6 Saga.

We shouldn't be going by Figherz. It is just a video game.

Also, the notion that Gohan and Goku were relative to each other before the ToP arc needs to die. That was just a casual sparring match and everything else in the entire series points to Goku>>>>>>>>>>>>Gohan in an equivalent form. It is very reasonable to assume Goku was heavily suppressed during that altercation.

[Marlowe89]

Goku and Gohan were not relative to each other in the same form.

Yes they were, and the dialogue in their own sparring match made that excruciatingly clear. If Goku was suppressing himself to absurd levels like you're suggesting, it wouldn't make the slightest amount of sense for the writers to script the scene in such a specific way that Gohan explicitly asked his father not to hold back, followed by Goku going Super Saiyan, followed again by the two commenting on how they were so invested in the fight that they weren't even aware of the destruction they were inflicting on the environment. Assuming otherwise isn't "reasonable", it's counterintuitive. The intention of that whole segment is as obvious as it possibly can be -- Super Saiyan Goku and Super Saiyan Gohan (pre Ultimate reobtainment) were and still are entirely comparable in power, period.

It's hilarious to me that people think the base Saiyans stand a smidgen of a chance against Super Vegito when they could barely compete against Universe 9's fighters individually in the tournament. Vegeta vs. Hop is one example of that. Those fighters were weaker than each member of the Trio de Dangers, which includes Basil, who was essentially fodder to Majin Buu. Android 18 was outperforming base Goku in raw strength; hell, even Ganos was giving him a decent challenge and he was later defeated by Roshi in a stronger form.

If you have to appeal to your own interpretation of older movie retellings just to dispute much more recent evidence, there's probably not much merit to what you're arguing. Slim Buu's sparring match certainly doesn't prove anything because Buu was told to focus on ringing-out the opponent, and he still harmed Goku. Buu arc Vegito is completely out of the question and would effortlessly turn them both into paste.

We shouldn't be going by Figherz. It is just a video game.

It doesn't matter if it's a video game. Official content always takes precedence in these cases, and even if it didn't, you're ignoring countless evidence within the show itself just to push an agenda that the writers themselves most likely don't adhere to.

[buutenks]

Considering what Piccolo said, Gohan pre ep 90 should be below ultimate Gohan from buu saga.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Considering what Piccolo said, Gohan pre ep 90 should be below ultimate Gohan from buu saga.

That one, I can believe.

Of course, the real brain-wracker is by how much.

I'm of the camp that he was of a similar level in the same forms as Gotenks, others believe he lies at a level from before he had his potential unlocked by Elder Kai, and others still have different opinions yet.