Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PFM18]

Yes they were, and the dialogue in their own sparring match made that excruciatingly clear. If Goku was suppressing himself to absurd levels like you're suggesting, it wouldn't make the slightest amount of sense for the writers to script the scene in such a specific way that Gohan explicitly asked his father not to hold back, followed by Goku going Super Saiyan, followed again by the two commenting on how they were so invested in the fight that they weren't even aware of the destruction they were inflicting on the environment. Assuming otherwise isn't "reasonable", it's counterintuitive. The intention of that whole segment is as obvious as it possibly can be -- Super Saiyan Goku and Super Saiyan Gohan (pre Ultimate reobtainment) were and still are entirely comparable in power, period.

Gohan asked Goku to go all-out, this is true. But so what? That doesn't mean anything. Gohan even mentioned after asking his father to go all out, that Goku was holding back. Like Gohan explicitly said that Goku wasn't going all out. You could argue that when Goku says that he was testing Gohan, and then powers up to SSJ, THEN he is going all out. But this doesn't make any sense because if he was referring to "going all out" in terms of changing form, then he would have gone SSB and ACTUALLY have gone all-out. Based on what the rest of the entire story of DBS has told us, Goku should be far above Gohan in this scene. Considering the context of this scene, there is no way that you could rationally conclude that they are even in even forms. It was just a casual sparring match. They didn't realize the destruction that they were causing but that doesn't really indicate anything about Goku's suppression or not, if anything, he would have done more damage to the environment if he was using his full-power SSJ. And the scene about the destruction of the environment and Chi-Chi yelling at them for it is more of a gag scene anyway.

Considering what Piccolo said, Gohan pre ep 90 should be below ultimate Gohan from buu saga.

Even that could be interpreted more than just that one way. Considering that Gohan didn't seem to fall too far behind in ROF, and he has been training since ROF(not very seriously but still training) I think it would be possible that he surpassed his Buu Arc Ultimate Gohan self. I think that when Piccolo was referring to the power that Gohan was using against Buu, he was referring to the "Ultimate form" not the level of power itself. Since episode 90 did establish that "Ultimate" is a transformation and it is stronger than him using SSJ/SSJ2.

[Marlowe89]

Gohan even mentioned after asking his father to go all out, that Goku was holding back. Like Gohan explicitly said that Goku wasn't going all out.

That's the statement I'm referring to. They spar in base, Gohan expresses his dissatisfaction with Goku holding back, and Goku specifically responds to that piece of dialogue by turning into a Super Saiyan. They were initially play-acting at the very start of the scene, which implies they wouldn't have invested that much into the match, but became so invested anyway that they didn't notice how much destruction they had caused. That's the entire context of the scene and the whole point of the gag.

The dialogue itself demonstrates that Super Saiyan Goku wasn't suppressing himself much if at all, and whether it's "casual" or a gag doesn't change the script's authorial intention for that particular battle.

Even that could be interpreted more than just that one way.

Piccolo's statement in Episode 88 only allows for a single interpretation. He flat-out said that Gohan couldn't invoke his "original strength", not just his potential or his highest form. He was clearly referring to Gohan's level of power during the Buu arc.

[PFM18]

That's the statement I'm referring to. They spar in base, Gohan expresses his dissatisfaction with Goku holding back, and Goku specifically responds to that piece of dialogue by turning into a Super Saiyan. They were initially play-acting at the very start of the scene, which implies they wouldn't have invested that much into the match, but became so invested anyway that they didn't notice how much destruction they had caused. That's the entire context of the scene and the whole point of the gag.

I don't believe that it happens in that order. Gohan starts the fight and tells Goku to go all out. THEN Gohan expresses his concerns as far as Goku holding back despite specifically instructing him not to. Then both Saiyans go SSJ and start sparring some more. My interpretation was that Gohan asked Goku to go all out, but Goku declined to because he didn't think that Gohan could handle it. I think that authorial intent was just to show a sparring match not to establish that Goku and Gohan are even in respective forms.

[buutenks]

Gohan even mentioned after asking his father to go all out, that Goku was holding back. Like Gohan explicitly said that Goku wasn't going all out.

That's the statement I'm referring to. They spar in base, Gohan expresses his dissatisfaction with Goku holding back, and Goku specifically responds to that piece of dialogue by turning into a Super Saiyan. They were initially play-acting at the very start of the scene, which implies they wouldn't have invested that much into the match, but became so invested anyway that they didn't notice how much destruction they had caused. That's the entire context of the scene and the whole point of the gag.

The dialogue itself demonstrates that Super Saiyan Goku wasn't suppressing himself much if at all, and whether it's "casual" or a gag doesn't change the script's authorial intention for that particular battle.

Even that could be interpreted more than just that one way.

Piccolo's statement in Episode 88 only allows for a single interpretation. He flat-out said that Gohan couldn't invoke his "original strength", not just his potential or his highest form. He was clearly referring to Gohan's level of power during the Buu arc.

Agreed, Piccolo specifically says the strength he used against Buu, he didnt say he tapped in the potential of his ultimate form.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Gohan even mentioned after asking his father to go all out, that Goku was holding back. Like Gohan explicitly said that Goku wasn't going all out.

That's the statement I'm referring to. They spar in base, Gohan expresses his dissatisfaction with Goku holding back, and Goku specifically responds to that piece of dialogue by turning into a Super Saiyan. They were initially play-acting at the very start of the scene, which implies they wouldn't have invested that much into the match, but became so invested anyway that they didn't notice how much destruction they had caused. That's the entire context of the scene and the whole point of the gag.

The dialogue itself demonstrates that Super Saiyan Goku wasn't suppressing himself much if at all, and whether it's "casual" or a gag doesn't change the script's authorial intention for that particular battle.

Even that could be interpreted more than just that one way.

Piccolo's statement in Episode 88 only allows for a single interpretation. He flat-out said that Gohan couldn't invoke his "original strength", not just his potential or his highest form. He was clearly referring to Gohan's level of power during the Buu arc.

I think this thought process is a big part of the disagreements we often have with this kind of topic.

We actually CAN interpret things differently, because we're given no further statements clarifying the EXACT contextual circumstances by guidebooks, characters, or staff. For example, you SAY that something only allows for a single interpretation, but you don't KNOW that it's like that; in Gohan's fight with his dad in episode 90, he says that the Ultimate form that he shows to SS2 Goku is his full-power, but then goes on to continue to power up anyways as he tries to get Goku to stop holding back.

This is one example that can easily refute your argument, as Gohan is referring to the Ultimate state rather than its power at the time. And because it's played out with a much more serious context than the scene in question you've been arguing, there's narratively meant to be a more factual basis than a comedic action scene.

That's not to say your incorrect, either; you very well might be right and have the best perspective on matters. But claiming to have the only correct interpretation without further in-universe/WoG evidence to back this mentality up invites challenge and ultimately doesn't engender people to believe you.

[Marlowe89]

My interpretation was that Gohan asked Goku to go all out, but Goku declined to because he didn't think that Gohan could handle it.

In Goku's very own words, he initially declined because he was just testing Gohan; afterwards, he exclaims "Now let's do this!" as if he was about to take the match seriously, then goes Super Saiyan. This was all his direct response to Gohan's disappointment at him holding back.

The context is that they were taking the gloves off at that point, even if it was through lower transformations like Super Saiyan.

We actually CAN interpret things differently

Only if the dialogue and its connotations aren't specific enough to rule out a competing hypothesis, which simply isn't the case in Episode 88. I'm not sure why you're referring to Episode 90 as if that's relevant to what we're discussing; absolutely nothing during Gohan's all-out fight with Goku disproves Piccolo's very explicit statement about Gohan failing to invoke the strength he originally possessed during his training. You can't interpret that in more than one way because the writer's interpretation is presented directly to the viewer.

I'm not doing anything more than reiterating specifically phrased pieces of dialogue, the meaning behind them and the contextual emphasis of certain scenes. Whether people take issue with it or whether they're inclined to agree with me frankly isn't my concern at all.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

My interpretation was that Gohan asked Goku to go all out, but Goku declined to because he didn't think that Gohan could handle it.

In Goku's very own words, he initially declined because he was just testing Gohan; afterwards, he exclaims "Now let's do this!" as if he was about to take the match seriously, then goes Super Saiyan. This was all his direct response to Gohan's disappointment at him holding back.

The context is that they were taking the gloves off at that point, even if it was through lower transformations like Super Saiyan.

We actually CAN interpret things differently

Only if the dialogue and its connotations aren't specific enough to rule out a competing hypothesis, which simply isn't the case in Episode 88. I'm not sure why you're referring to Episode 90 as if that's relevant to what we're discussing; absolutely nothing during Gohan's all-out fight with Goku disproves Piccolo's very explicit statement about Gohan failing to invoke the strength he originally possessed. You can't interpret that in more than one way because the writer's interpretation is presented directly to the viewer.

I'm not doing anything more than reiterating specifically phrased pieces of dialogue, the meaning behind them and the contextual emphasis of certain scenes. Whether people take issue with it or whether they're inclined to agree with me frankly isn't my concern at all.

It's the whole "meaning and contextual emphasis" thing where folks take issue, as you present an interpretation of them rather than a factual basis. It should be your concern because you're presenting a biased standpoint based on an unspoken confirmation bias; not everyone is gonna believe when you say that '"[x] is the way the writers intended it" no more than they would me, personal opinions of our respective legitimacy and wisdom aside.

For example, you SAY that it only means Gohan's specific power level, but as my example in episode 90 shows, evoking one's strength DOESN'T necessarily mean exact strength; it can also mean the kind strength that a previous state of power brought with it. Heck, the example I provided has to do with Ultimate itself; in that episode, later scenes clarify that Gohan was referring to Ultimate as a state of power, rather than as a power level, since he powers up further as Goku stops holding back less and less. The same can be interpreted when Piccolo is lecturing Gohan; Piccolo's reference to Super Buu can just as easily be interpreted as him simply making a point about how Ultimate the STATE of power was used against Super Buu.

Once again, I don't take issue with your conclusion. It's the means by which you attempt to legitimize the conclusion that I have to argue, since it's NOT a rock-solid foundation to stand on.

[PFM18]

Gohan even mentioned after asking his father to go all out, that Goku was holding back. Like Gohan explicitly said that Goku wasn't going all out.

That's the statement I'm referring to. They spar in base, Gohan expresses his dissatisfaction with Goku holding back, and Goku specifically responds to that piece of dialogue by turning into a Super Saiyan. They were initially play-acting at the very start of the scene, which implies they wouldn't have invested that much into the match, but became so invested anyway that they didn't notice how much destruction they had caused. That's the entire context of the scene and the whole point of the gag.

The dialogue itself demonstrates that Super Saiyan Goku wasn't suppressing himself much if at all, and whether it's "casual" or a gag doesn't change the script's authorial intention for that particular battle.

Even that could be interpreted more than just that one way.

Piccolo's statement in Episode 88 only allows for a single interpretation. He flat-out said that Gohan couldn't invoke his "original strength", not just his potential or his highest form. He was clearly referring to Gohan's level of power during the Buu arc.

I think this thought process is a big part of the disagreements we often have with this kind of topic.

We actually CAN interpret things differently, because we're given no further statements clarifying the EXACT contextual circumstances by guidebooks, characters, or staff. For example, you SAY that something only allows for a single interpretation, but you don't KNOW that it's like that; in Gohan's fight with his dad in episode 90, he says that the Ultimate form that he shows to SS2 Goku is his full-power, but then goes on to continue to power up anyways as he tries to get Goku to stop holding back.

This is one example that can easily refute your argument, as Gohan is referring to the Ultimate state rather than its power at the time. And because it's played out with a much more serious context than the scene in question you've been arguing, there's narratively meant to be a more factual basis than a comedic action scene.

That's not to say your incorrect, either; you very well might be right and have the best perspective on matters. But claiming to have the only correct interpretation without further in-universe/WoG evidence to back this mentality up invites challenge and ultimately doesn't engender people to believe you.

Very well said. There is not a single "correct" interpretation. People interpret things differently.

In Goku's very own words, he initially declined because he was just testing Gohan; afterwards, he exclaims "Now let's do this!" as if he was about to take the match seriously, then goes Super Saiyan. This was all his direct response to Gohan's disappointment at him holding back.

The context is that they were taking the gloves off at that point, even if it was through lower transformations like Super Saiyan.

See now you are even changing your original description of the scene. Before you said that Gohan commented how Goku was holding back and then said that he should go all out. Now you are acknowledging the correct order of events.

When Goku charges at Gohan, which was established to be Goku holding back, Gohan is amazed by his speed. Goku is stated to be holding back and they fight even, then they go Super Saiyan and they fight evenly again. If Goku actually was going all out in the 2nd iteration where he goes Super Saiyan and you say that they were "taking the gloves off", then the fact that Goku is no longer holding back would be reflected in Goku now gaining an advantage in the second half of the bout. Instead, they fight evenly again, indicating that Goku continued to hold back. This is further illustrated by the fact that Gohan is amazed by Goku's speed even when Goku is stated to be holding back.

This idea of Goku being suppressed corroborates with the entire rest of the series that shows a large gap between Goku and Gohan. Gohan apparently at this time is weaker than his Buu arc Ultimate self, and yet Goku's base is able to dominate SSJ3 Gotenks and fight evenly with a suppressed Beerus who is obviously using more power than he did against Goku on King Kai's planet? No that doesn't make any sense for them to be even at this point.

[Bullza]

I'm wondering now if Base Gohan really was supposed to be stronger than Piccolo in the Resurrection F saga. Also Tagoma supposedly being as strong as Base Gohan too.

I'd like to think somehow we've misinterpreted something so that it would still fit with Base Gohan being weaker than Final Form Frieza on Namek.

If Gohan is supposedly weaker than his Cell Games strength and was also barely able to manage the Super Saiyan form for long and couldn't even turn into a Super Saiyan 2......then it makes no sense for Base Gohan to be stronger than Piccolo because he'd be drastically more powerful than at the Cell Games.

His power was also described as being puny by Tagoma too.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'm wondering now if Base Gohan really was supposed to be stronger than Piccolo in the Resurrection F saga. Also Tagoma supposedly being as strong as Base Gohan too.

I'd like to think somehow we've misinterpreted something so that it would still fit with Base Gohan being weaker than Final Form Frieza on Namek.

If Gohan is supposedly weaker than his Cell Games strength and was also barely able to manage the Super Saiyan form for long and couldn't even turn into a Super Saiyan 2......then it makes no sense for Base Gohan to be stronger than Piccolo because he'd be drastically more powerful than at the Cell Games.

His power was also described as being puny by Tagoma too.

There are still plenty of interpretations that account for these kinds of things; power doesn't always have to be the exact outcome.

For example, when Future Trunks is sizing Gohan up, he notes he can't detect any overflowing power. However, this doesn't necessarily mean that Gohan is flat-out weaker than he was back then; it can also be used to describe how Gohan's power wasn't brimming to the surface, or how his rage-fueled fury wasn't making it obvious how strong Gohan was in his relaxed and sedentary civilian base form.

[PFM18]

I'm wondering now if Base Gohan really was supposed to be stronger than Piccolo in the Resurrection F saga. Also Tagoma supposedly being as strong as Base Gohan too.

I'd like to think somehow we've misinterpreted something so that it would still fit with Base Gohan being weaker than Final Form Frieza on Namek.

If Gohan is supposedly weaker than his Cell Games strength and was also barely able to manage the Super Saiyan form for long and couldn't even turn into a Super Saiyan 2......then it makes no sense for Base Gohan to be stronger than Piccolo because he'd be drastically more powerful than at the Cell Games.

His power was also described as being puny by Tagoma too.

We don't have to have Base Gohan be weaker than FF Freeza on Namek. The "Base Saiyans" being weaker than Freeza per Beerus was probably only applying to Goku adn Vegeta. Gohan was only a couple years removed from his maximum potential being drawn to the surface and probably has a residual boost from that even if he isn't quite as strong as his "Ultimate" self in his SSJ form.

Things could easily look like this:

Namek Final Form Freeza(100%): 1
Base Goku on King Kai's planet: 0.8
Ultimate Gohan(Buu Arc): 5,000
Base Gohan(ROF): 50
SSJ Gohan(ROF): 2,500
Piccolo: 40

and everything would still fit. Piccolo would be 40x stronger than Namek Freeza and a lot stronger than his Cell Games self while still being weaker than Base Gohan.(although it is possible that Base Gohan was not supposed to be stronger than Piccolo and Piccolo could be like an 80 on this scale and everything would still work out. Gohan is definitely not weaker than his Cell Games Self. That is just not the case. That was only iterated in a one off scene in a video game.

[Marlowe89]

It's the whole "meaning and contextual emphasis" thing where folks take issue, as you present an interpretation of them rather than a factual basis.

Again, I would be much more disposed to concur with you if we were discussing almost anything other than what we're discussing right now. A lot of things in Super are open to interpretation, especially statements and showings that are never quite explicit enough to accurately convey an intended meaning of a particular scene. I don't dispute that.

However, there's nothing even remotely ambiguous about the term "original strength" - it simply means what it means, and Gohan was incapable of tapping into it at the time of Episode 88. Piccolo made no mention of a "state of power" during that particular exchange. Even if Episode 90 outright confirmed that Ultimate is more of a transformation than a level of strength, which it very well could be, that doesn't automatically contradict Piccolo's words two episodes prior. These ideas are not mutually exclusive.

I'm calling this a rock-solid foundation because that's exactly what it is, because I fail to see the alternative in a situation where explicit terminology is incorporated into a scene that specifically refers to Gohan's original strength.

See now you are even changing your original description of the scene. Before you said that Gohan commented how Goku was holding back and then said that he should go all out. Now you are acknowledging the correct order of events.

I never acknowledged a different order. When I mentioned that Gohan asked his father not to hold back, I was referring more to his dissatisfaction with Goku holding back during their scuffle as opposed to any of his dialogue before the match. You just misinterpreted my point.

After Gohan tells Goku that he's still holding back, Goku explains that he was merely testing Gohan and proceeds to yell "Let's do this!" while transforming into a Super Saiyan immediately afterwards. You'd have to assume Goku was somehow lying to Gohan or that the context of the scene was deliberately misleading if he somehow suppressed himself to some absurd degree, which is doubtful at best. Whether they seemed like they were fighting evenly while in base makes no difference because neither of them initially intended to take the fight as seriously as they eventually would after that point.

[PFM18]

After Gohan tells Goku that he's still holding back, Goku explains that he was merely testing Gohan and proceeds to yell "Let's do this!" while transforming into a Super Saiyan immediately afterwards. You'd have to assume Goku was somehow lying to Gohan or that the context of the scene was deliberately misleading if he somehow suppressed himself to some absurd degree, which is doubtful at best. Whether they seemed like they were fighting evenly while in base makes no difference because neither of them initially intended to take the fight as seriously as they eventually would after that point.

No you wouldn't have to assume Goku is lying because saying "Let's do this" \=\ "I'm using full-power." So there doesn't have to be a lie involved.

The scene certainly seems to imply heavily that Goku was holding back:

1. A suppressed Goku charges at Gohan and Gohan is amazed by his speed
2. Goku admits to holding back and they fight evenly. Then they go Super Saiyan and they still fight evenly, implying that Goku was still holding back after going SSJ.
3. It was a casual sparring match where Goku is fighting his son who he knows doesn't train very much.
4. The entire rest of the series implies Base Goku>>>>>>>>>>Base Gohan.

Again, your interpretation of the scene is not somehow more "right" automatically than my interpretation of the scene. (especially since your interpretation would contradict the rest of the series.)

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It's the whole "meaning and contextual emphasis" thing where folks take issue, as you present an interpretation of them rather than a factual basis.

Again, I would be much more disposed to concur with you if we were discussing almost anything other than what we're discussing right now. A lot of things in Super are open to interpretation, especially statements and showings that are never quite explicit enough to accurately convey an intended meaning of a particular scene. I don't dispute that.

However, there's nothing even remotely ambiguous about the term "original strength" - it simply means what it means, and Gohan was incapable of tapping into it at the time of Episode 88. Piccolo made no mention of a "state of power" during that particular exchange. Even if Episode 90 outright confirmed that Ultimate is more of a transformation than a level of strength, which it very well could be, that doesn't automatically contradict Piccolo's words two episodes prior. These ideas are not mutually exclusive.

I'm calling this a rock-solid foundation because that's exactly what it is, because I fail to see the alternative in a situation where explicit terminology is incorporated into a scene that specifically refers to Gohan's original strength.

See now you are even changing your original description of the scene. Before you said that Gohan commented how Goku was holding back and then said that he should go all out. Now you are acknowledging the correct order of events.

I never acknowledged a different order. When I mentioned that Gohan asked his father not to hold back, I was referring more to his dissatisfaction with Goku holding back during their scuffle as opposed to any of his dialogue before the match. You just misinterpreted my point.

After Gohan tells Goku that he's still holding back, Goku explains that he was merely testing Gohan and proceeds to yell "Let's do this!" while transforming into a Super Saiyan immediately afterwards. You'd have to assume Goku was somehow lying to Gohan or that the context of the scene was deliberately misleading if he somehow suppressed himself to some absurd degree, which is doubtful at best. Whether they seemed like they were fighting evenly while in base makes no difference because neither of them initially intended to take the fight as seriously as they eventually would after that point.

And THAT'S the failing you make.

You don't even consider the alternative, or bother to see how other ideas can potentially be correct. You try to cover for this by stating "the wording isn't open to interpretation", but this also isn't valid for a few of reasons.

1. You're working off of the English subtitling/dubbing of a Japanese-dubbed show, whereby language barriers ensure that meaning and sentence structure will never be exact. Even in the English language, exact wording doesn't always translate to exact meaning; we'd otherwise be living in a world where Drax's from Guardians of the Galaxy literal thinking would be the norm.

2. You continue to not admit that what you present is an interpretation and not rock-solid factual; in proper debating etiquette that have actual college courses dedicated to them, the failure to admit to the possibility of alternative explanations in the absence of absolute fact is considered poor form and weakens one's argument.

If you'd just straight up say that you don't know for sure if your interpretation is correct but that it's the one you're going with because it makes the most sense to you with the available evidence, I wouldn't be having this debate about your debating etiquette in the first place.

Please understand, I don't mean any of this as a personal attack, nor as some kind of vendetta; to do so is also poor form for debating etiquette and indeed covers multiple fallacies. I'm simply trying to be as fair to all sides of the argument as possible, and not trying to make any absolutely definitive statements until proven otherwise. For example, if Toriyama or someone else of similar authority flat-out said that "the meaning of [X] scene is exactly like this" and this so happens to line up with your own take on the matter, then by all means claim your position is absolute. But otherwise? Just be mindful that your position doesn't stand on holy ground.

[Bullza]

Gohan was only a couple years removed from his maximum potential being drawn to the surface and probably has a residual boost from that even if he isn't quite as strong as his "Ultimate" self in his SSJ form.

Well that has always been the best explanation for it. If there's any reason to explain why Base Gohan is above Piccolo whereas Base Goku is below Frieza then that's the only logical explanation you can make.

That's if it's meant to be portrayed that way though. Why can't he be weaker than his Cell Games self? It'd be like his Great Saiyaman saga self. He says that his "current" body can't handle Super Saiyan for long.

At least in the movie he says that he only thinks he can still turn Super Saiyan.

[ZombieVito]

Ultimate Gohan in E88 can't be the same as his Boo arc self power level wise for the simple fact that base Gohan was able to match up to Lavender.

Base Gohan in the Boo arc was not even Namek Freeza level.

[supercat]

After Gohan tells Goku that he's still holding back, Goku explains that he was merely testing Gohan and proceeds to yell "Let's do this!" while transforming into a Super Saiyan immediately afterwards. You'd have to assume Goku was somehow lying to Gohan or that the context of the scene was deliberately misleading if he somehow suppressed himself to some absurd degree, which is doubtful at best. Whether they seemed like they were fighting evenly while in base makes no difference because neither of them initially intended to take the fight as seriously as they eventually would after that point.

No you wouldn't have to assume Goku is lying because saying "Let's do this" \=\ "I'm using full-power." So there doesn't have to be a lie involved.

The scene certainly seems to imply heavily that Goku was holding back:

1. A suppressed Goku charges at Gohan and Gohan is amazed by his speed
2. Goku admits to holding back and they fight evenly. Then they go Super Saiyan and they still fight evenly, implying that Goku was still holding back after going SSJ.
3. It was a casual sparring match where Goku is fighting his son who he knows doesn't train very much.
4. The entire rest of the series implies Base Goku>>>>>>>>>>Base Gohan.

Again, your interpretation of the scene is not somehow more "right" automatically than my interpretation of the scene. (especially since your interpretation would contradict the rest of the series.)

Great post; basically sums up how I perceive this whole Goku vs Gohan debate. I feel like there are far too many feats (where Base Goku surpassed the entire Buu saga) that outweigh this seemingly non-serious scene for it to hold any real value. At this point, quite a few things point towards the notion that Base Goku and Vegeta far surpassed anything SSJ Vegetto was capable of back in the Buu saga.

I also agree with you on RoF Gohan likely retaining a good portion of his Ultimate power. I basically have SSJ Gohan (RoF) anywhere between 50-90% of Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga), with the added notion that his lack of training lowered his stamina / control. Meaning, while going SSJ allowed him to bring out a good chunk of his original Ultimate strength, he wasn't able to utilize it to the degree of which he was able to do back when he wrecked Super Buu.

[PFM18]

Ultimate Gohan in E88 can't be the same as his Boo arc self power level wise for the simple fact that base Gohan was able to match up to Lavender.

Base Gohan in the Boo arc was not even Namek Freeza level.

Actually this makes a lot of sense. never thought about it this way. This further gives evidence against those that want to thoroughly lowball these characters.

I also agree with you on RoF Gohan likely retaining a good portion of his Ultimate power. I basically have SSJ Gohan (RoF) anywhere between 50-90% of Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga), with the added notion that his lack of training lowered his stamina / control. Meaning, while going SSJ allowed him to bring out a good chunk of his original Ultimate strength, he wasn't able to utilize it to the degree of which he was able to do back when he wrecked Super Buu.

Yeah exactly. The example numbers I gave to Bullza had ROF SSJ Gohan pegged at 50% of Ultimate Gohan's Buu Arc power. He since trained and became stronger than that like in the sparring match against Goku in his GS outfit. Gohan was much stronger than his ROF self, but still nothing to his father

Why can't he be weaker than his Cell Games self?

Because Cell Games Gohan is absolutely nothing to anybody in DBS and that would render him about as relevant as Yamcha if this were the case. He is weaker than his Ultimate Gohan self but the difference from SSJ2 Cell Games -> Ultimate Gohan Buu Arc is a pretty massive gap. By "weaker" I mean his Base is probably weaker than SSJ2 Cell Games Self but his SSJ form is probably far beyond it based on my interpretation of the events

[Marlowe89]

No you wouldn't have to assume Goku is lying because saying "Let's do this" \=\ "I'm using full-power." So there doesn't have to be a lie involved.

Again, this is why context is important. Goku's statement was specifically in response to Gohan's complaint that he was holding back, with the two being so engaged in their fight that they weren't even conscious of the destruction they were causing. The whole point of the scene is that they went from play-fighting to real-fighting because that's exactly what the dialogue conveys.

Goku outright mentioned that he was just testing Gohan (in the past-tense) just a moment before transforming into Super Saiyan, implying that he wouldn't be testing him anymore. The intention of the scene clearly shows that the gloves were coming off while they were fighting in equivalent forms, which suggests that Goku was closer to fighting seriously than suppressing his power for no reason.

Goku admits to holding back and they fight evenly. Then they go Super Saiyan and they still fight evenly

In actuality, you're describing the order of events incorrectly right here. They don't fight evenly in base after Goku admits to holding back; they immediately go Super Saiyan after Goku's statement and then continue fighting.

The writer's intention doesn't contradict the rest of the series at all. It's specifically shown that Gohan trains periodically throughout the show to the point that he was finally able to reobtain his Super Saiyan 2 transformation by the beginning of the Universe Survival arc, which wasn't too long after his sparring match with Goku. He didn't suddenly close the gap between himself and his father in equivalent forms only after regaining his Ultimate form -- that was just the result of his gradual progress throughout Super.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Because Cell Games Gohan is absolutely nothing to anybody in DBS and that would render him about as relevant as Yamcha if this were the case. He is weaker than his Ultimate Gohan self but the difference from SSJ2 Cell Games -> Ultimate Gohan Buu Arc is a pretty massive gap. By "weaker" I mean his Base is probably weaker than SSJ2 Cell Games Self but his SSJ form is probably far beyond it based on my interpretation of the events

That's a good place to place base Gohan before his Ultimate re-training with Piccolo.

Him and Piccolo were at a relative level like that back in Resurrection of F, I feel, and Piccolo making great enough gains in the years since to actually surpass even Gohan's SS forms is a major achievement.