Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PFM18]

Well Android 18 is a tad confusing at times since we don't know how much Base Goku held back against Ribrianne (if he even held back). I would say at the very least, Android 18 is either comparable to SSJ Vegetto from the Buu saga or a tad stronger; basically where I have Piccolo. But again, there's always that chance Goku wasn't holding back; which would mean it's possible that Android 18 (after power up) could actually be stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto.

Overall, Android 18 could be either be below or above SSJ3 Vegetto without changing much; but like I said, the lowest I have her is still a bit stronger than SSJ Vegetto.

Android 18 > / = PIccolo > / = SSJ Vegetto > Buuhan or Android 18 > SSJ3 Vegetto >> SSJ2 Vegetto > Piccolo SSJ > / = SSJ Vegetto >> Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

Either of these would work in my opinion.

Piccolo's best feat is wrecking an SSJ2 Gohan that was likely at a level akin to his Ultimate self from the Buu saga. Other than that he doesn't seem to have much going for him; therefore, it's hard to place him over Android 18. What further adds to this is how Base Goku was seemingly unaffected by an attack that he went through the trouble of charging up; doesn't exactly work in his favor when Android 18 was able to defeat a stronger version of an opponent that Base Goku (holding back or not) had some trouble against.

Goku was holding back. That U2 Rildo look alike took Ribrianne's power and couldn't even land a hit to an exhausted base Goku.

Well I was leaning towards the notion that he wasn't going all out against Ribrianne. That said, even if Goku was only using 25% of his base form's full power, Ribrianne would still very likely be SSJ Vegetto-tier (at the very least). Contending with a Base Goku who is only using 20-25% of his power may not seem much now, but it's likely still a lot better than anything Buu saga SSJ Vegetto could have done (given how Base Goku is likely stronger than that same Vegetto's SSJ3).

So at the bare minimum, I have Android 18 a bit stronger than SSJ Vegetto but marginally weaker than SSJ2 Vegetto; which again, is more or less where I have Piccolo.

Base Goku (full power) > Android 18 (after power up) > Giant Ribrianne > Android 18 (before power up) = Base Goku (20-25%) > Ribrianne > / = Piccolo > SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) >> Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ Gohan (RoF) = Ultimate Gohan (50-75%) > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

Honestly, I'm not sure if I should put the Ribrianne that fought Base Goku over Piccolo or not; but given how Piccolo's best feat was merely defeating an SSJ2 Gohan who was likely only comparable to Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga), I can't find any reason to move him up.

There's also how Base Goku didn't even bother transforming when Piccolo blasted him; he just tanked the attack like it wasn't much.

A bit off topic, but I also want to add that Tagoma is likely at least SSJ Gotenks-tier. Goten and Trunks sensed Tagoma's power, were excited, and immediately rushed in as SSJ Gotenks. Gotenks is known for his overconfidence, so it makes no sense for him to go Super Saiyan unless he felt the power that he sensed was worthy of it.

That also doesn't take into account the fact that Ribrianne's power fluctuates based on her emotions. They kind of hinted that was the case in the anime but they were pretty clear about it in the manga. How she feels about her "love" and where she stands with her teammates, whether or not she is angry, all of that stuff influences the power that Ribrianne is exerting

[supercat]

Goku was holding back. That U2 Rildo look alike took Ribrianne's power and couldn't even land a hit to an exhausted base Goku.

Well I was leaning towards the notion that he wasn't going all out against Ribrianne. That said, even if Goku was only using 25% of his base form's full power, Ribrianne would still very likely be SSJ Vegetto-tier (at the very least). Contending with a Base Goku who is only using 20-25% of his power may not seem much now, but it's likely still a lot better than anything Buu saga SSJ Vegetto could have done (given how Base Goku is likely stronger than that same Vegetto's SSJ3).

So at the bare minimum, I have Android 18 a bit stronger than SSJ Vegetto but marginally weaker than SSJ2 Vegetto; which again, is more or less where I have Piccolo.

Base Goku (full power) > Android 18 (after power up) > Giant Ribrianne > Android 18 (before power up) = Base Goku (20-25%) > Ribrianne > / = Piccolo > SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) >> Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ Gohan (RoF) = Ultimate Gohan (50-75%) > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

Honestly, I'm not sure if I should put the Ribrianne that fought Base Goku over Piccolo or not; but given how Piccolo's best feat was merely defeating an SSJ2 Gohan who was likely only comparable to Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga), I can't find any reason to move him up.

There's also how Base Goku didn't even bother transforming when Piccolo blasted him; he just tanked the attack like it wasn't much.

A bit off topic, but I also want to add that Tagoma is likely at least SSJ Gotenks-tier. Goten and Trunks sensed Tagoma's power, were excited, and immediately rushed in as SSJ Gotenks. Gotenks is known for his overconfidence, so it makes no sense for him to go Super Saiyan unless he felt the power that he sensed was worthy of it.

That also doesn't take into account the fact that Ribrianne's power fluctuates based on her emotions. They kind of hinted that was the case in the anime but they were pretty clear about it in the manga. How she feels about her "love" and where she stands with her teammates, whether or not she is angry, all of that stuff influences the power that Ribrianne is exerting

Exactly. There's a good chance that Ribrianne wasn't even at full power during her battle with Base Goku. Also, with Giant Ribrianne likely being a lot stronger than she was when she faced Goku yet still losing to Android 18 seems to further support the notion that Android 18 is at least stronger than SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) and Buuhan.

Also, Zirloin wasn't flat-out wrecked by Base Goku or anything like that. He was actually able to tangle with him. Yes, Base Goku was exhausted, but even then, it's likely he still had access to 20-25% of his full power on the low end. Personally, I feel exhausted Base Goku is comparable to about 50-75% of his full power. Either way, whether it's 20-25% or 50-75%, Zirloin tangling with Base Goku as well as he did is very likely a feat that I doubt Buu saga SSJ Vegetto or Buuhan could muster up.

[PFM18]

Well I was leaning towards the notion that he wasn't going all out against Ribrianne. That said, even if Goku was only using 25% of his base form's full power, Ribrianne would still very likely be SSJ Vegetto-tier (at the very least). Contending with a Base Goku who is only using 20-25% of his power may not seem much now, but it's likely still a lot better than anything Buu saga SSJ Vegetto could have done (given how Base Goku is likely stronger than that same Vegetto's SSJ3).

So at the bare minimum, I have Android 18 a bit stronger than SSJ Vegetto but marginally weaker than SSJ2 Vegetto; which again, is more or less where I have Piccolo.

Base Goku (full power) > Android 18 (after power up) > Giant Ribrianne > Android 18 (before power up) = Base Goku (20-25%) > Ribrianne > / = Piccolo > SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) >> Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ Gohan (RoF) = Ultimate Gohan (50-75%) > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

Honestly, I'm not sure if I should put the Ribrianne that fought Base Goku over Piccolo or not; but given how Piccolo's best feat was merely defeating an SSJ2 Gohan who was likely only comparable to Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga), I can't find any reason to move him up.

There's also how Base Goku didn't even bother transforming when Piccolo blasted him; he just tanked the attack like it wasn't much.

A bit off topic, but I also want to add that Tagoma is likely at least SSJ Gotenks-tier. Goten and Trunks sensed Tagoma's power, were excited, and immediately rushed in as SSJ Gotenks. Gotenks is known for his overconfidence, so it makes no sense for him to go Super Saiyan unless he felt the power that he sensed was worthy of it.

That also doesn't take into account the fact that Ribrianne's power fluctuates based on her emotions. They kind of hinted that was the case in the anime but they were pretty clear about it in the manga. How she feels about her "love" and where she stands with her teammates, whether or not she is angry, all of that stuff influences the power that Ribrianne is exerting

Exactly. There's a good chance that Ribrianne wasn't even at full power during her battle with Base Goku. Also, with Giant Ribrianne likely being a lot stronger than she was when she faced Goku yet still losing to Android 18 seems to further support the notion that Android 18 is at least stronger than SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) and Buuhan.

Well I just mean since her strength fluctuates so much it is extremely difficult to get a gauge on where exactly she stands compared to anybody else.

[supercat]

That also doesn't take into account the fact that Ribrianne's power fluctuates based on her emotions. They kind of hinted that was the case in the anime but they were pretty clear about it in the manga. How she feels about her "love" and where she stands with her teammates, whether or not she is angry, all of that stuff influences the power that Ribrianne is exerting

Exactly. There's a good chance that Ribrianne wasn't even at full power during her battle with Base Goku. Also, with Giant Ribrianne likely being a lot stronger than she was when she faced Goku yet still losing to Android 18 seems to further support the notion that Android 18 is at least stronger than SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) and Buuhan.

Well I just mean since her strength fluctuates so much it is extremely difficult to get a gauge on where exactly she stands compared to anybody else.

Ribrianne could be anywhere between 20-75% of Base Goku's full power in my opinion; possibly somewhere in the middle of that range seems plausible. Regardless of the specifics, I just can't imagine her losing to Buuhan when she was considered such a big deal in Universe 2.

[CJStriker_CBR]

That also doesn't take into account the fact that Ribrianne's power fluctuates based on her emotions. They kind of hinted that was the case in the anime but they were pretty clear about it in the manga. How she feels about her "love" and where she stands with her teammates, whether or not she is angry, all of that stuff influences the power that Ribrianne is exerting

Exactly. There's a good chance that Ribrianne wasn't even at full power during her battle with Base Goku. Also, with Giant Ribrianne likely being a lot stronger than she was when she faced Goku yet still losing to Android 18 seems to further support the notion that Android 18 is at least stronger than SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) and Buuhan.

Well I just mean since her strength fluctuates so much it is extremely difficult to get a gauge on where exactly she stands compared to anybody else.

That is what Makes Ribrianne Such an Interesting character and Unique in the Power Scaling Mythos of Dragon Ball since it is not the norm many are used too.

Again, I compare Ribrianne's power styling to that of the Emotional Spectrum of DC Comic Heroes like the Green Lantern Core with Hal Jordan or any of the other Lantern Cores. Hal Jordan's strength, constructs and power levels came not from benching allot of weights or training in 100x gravity like DB fans are us to see from most characters, but it is an inner spiritual battle based on his emotional of WILL and the Ability to overcome great Fears and Doubts!

The more Hal Jordan overcame these and faces his demons, doubts and fears, the more powerful his ring and contructs became, making him one of the Greatest Green Lanterns Ever.

The Same I see for Ribrianne and I felt that was how her powers worked from the start. It is the same to of most magical girls, how much confidence and belief they have in both themselves and in their ideals, the more powerful they become. When they lost that they become weaker.

It is a double edged sword for Magical Girls or Lantern Ring Users, it could lead to Great Power Beyond Imagination or just an equaly great failing if they lost a good sense of themselves.

This would explain allot why at the Start Ribrianne was seemingly toying with SSJ-Vegate and Android 17, cause she was Very Confident and Believed fully in her Power Set and her Strenght of Love. I think the Goku Fight, while I still think their where lazy writing errors in it, we could take that as the early signs of Ribrianne losing confidence and we saw the full scale of that in Episode 111 when Ribrianne questioned to Rozie if they had the power to win the ToP.

So I think by ways of how Strong Ribrianne was in Base level at a High Confidence Level with SSG-Vegeta and Android 17, if she went Super Ribrianne at those points in the story, her level could have gone Very High. Now combine this with Brianne in Episode 117 showing class and the ability in wanting to learn new forms of Love that might be even stronger then her present forms and combine that with a Fully-Confident Ribrianne~~~~~~Ribrianne's Power Levels can become Highly Impressive in Future Stories if Toei goes those routes!

I think many fans in the end underestimate Ribrianne cause her power set is not traditional like how Vegeta or Goku got theirs, so confusion was likely to happen.

Thanks to the Manga, it has cleared up allot of questions about Ribrianne power set that I believe was also how the set worked in the Anime as well, a theory that I and I have seen other Fans of hers speculated it was based on, but it is good having it in canon now.

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

[Miracles]

17 or Golden Freeza, who is stronger?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

17 or Golden Freeza, who is stronger?

In terms of "power level", True Golden Freeza for sure.

Of course, 17 isn't too far behind, and he has tons of other advantages that mean he can fight opponents of Freeza's calibre, though they are tough due to them being stronger than him.

[Miracles]

In terms of "power level", True Golden Freeza for sure...

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

In terms of "power level", True Golden Freeza for sure...

Hey, just because I argue for non-power-level-centric explanations doesn't mean I can't recognize when it's appropriate to determine where characters stand next to one another.

I just prefer to boil things down to what an episode is telling us and how it fits into the general whole; when I think assigning power levels are appropriate, THEN I'll get right on it. But when I don't think they're relevant, I look at other major factors.

[Bullza]

Frieza is clearly the stronger of the two considering how impressed Android 17 was of his power when he last fought Jiren.

[PFM18]

Frieza is clearly the stronger of the two considering how impressed Android 17 was of his power when he last fought Jiren.

Yeah I agree. I think it is a significant gap too

[ssj3kakarot]

1st: Anyone thinking Android 18 is anywhere near any Vegetto level is on some serious drugs!

The power levels are inconsistent, that's why there are so many discussions. There isn't dialogue to confirm or deny any certain power hierarchy. We have circumstance where Jiren defends against a surprise attack from Hit, but then is taken by surpise by final form (non golden) frieza. That same scene, Jiren actually gets moved by the attack, whereas ssj2 Goku straight up punches Jiren repeated directly and Jiren doesn't even budge.

We are led to believe that Jiren is always on guard, based off his feats like the ones where he blocks Hits surprise attack. Keep in mind Hit is no slouch and I think should do far better than a tired final form frieza. Then he can easily tank the hits from Goku but again, a tired final form frieza is able to not only get the jump on him but actually moves him ( clearly Jiren isn't hurt).

All this to point out that there are so many cases of inconsistent power levels. It's hard to really designate a power level list, like we all did back in Dbz.

[Miracles]

Hey, just because I argue for non-power-level-centric explanations doesn't mean I can't recognize when it's appropriate to determine where characters stand next to one another.

I just prefer to boil things down to what an episode is telling us and how it fits into the general whole; when I think assigning power levels are appropriate, THEN I'll get right on it. But when I don't think they're relevant, I look at other major factors.

I know you do. As those factors are important. Besides makes for interesting discussion as well.

[Marlowe89]

1st: Anyone thinking Android 18 is anywhere near any Vegetto level is on some serious drugs!

I think that just comes from people wanting a real sense of power escalation from Super, to the point that even its lower tiers leave Z's highest tiers in the dust.

However, looking at characters like Gohan prior to the Tournament of Power (in addition to a ton of other things), it's clear that that's simply not the case. It's not particularly necessary, either -- the stakes are already raised significantly from what they were in the original manga through the usage of god power-ups alone, as well as the antagonists capable of competing with them. It's all that's really needed for the purpose of the narrative.

[Kenneth La Torre]

1st: Anyone thinking Android 18 is anywhere near any Vegetto level is on some serious drugs!

More like its because the show doesnt want to be consistent with power scaling. Of course besides the obvious ones, gohan and 17 are the only ones having feats to put then on at least SSG levels of strength, if not more. The other ones dont have much going for them.

[supercat]

I honestly have Android 17 and Golden Frieza on par with one another for a number of reasons. I also think that Android 17 is quite comparable to current SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta; a tier that is seemingly 10x stronger (at least) than the the Super Saiyan Blues that fought in the universe 6 tournament.

Android 17 and SSB Goku fought evenly. Both fighters being suppressed does little to devalue the feat since Android 17 barely looked like he was even exerting himself.

After their brief yet amazing battle, Goku flat-out indicates that he is glad how Android 17 is no longer an enemy. Unless Android 17 was comparable to SSB Goku (who at that point could use Kaioken x20 on top of going SSB), would such a comment even make sense?

Android 17 pushed back (a good distance) and blitzed through a blast from Aniraza; the same blast that was on the verge of ringing out five SSB-tier fighters. In my opinion, the fact that Aniraza had this much power shows that he is at least comparable to SSB Goku Kaioken x10. Five SSB-tier fighters struggling as much as they did implies Aniraza was at least twice as strong as their collective effort.

Toppo was implied to be comparable to some form of SSB Goku's Kaioken yet he felt that his full power was needed to take on Android 17. Yes, Android 17 was losing the beam struggle, but it was no easy task for Toppo to push him to that point. Frieza had even indicated that Toppo wasn't in a position where he could fight back. If Toppo were really that much stronger than #17, he could have just fended off the blast with one hand while using the other to guard against Frieza. Either that, or he could have jumped out of the way, allowing Android 17's blast to hit Frieza. This could seemingly be done with a maneuver akin to what Goku did with Majin Vegeta's blast during the Buu saga martial arts tournament.

Android 17's blast injured Toppo quite a bit. On top of that, it even managed to engulf Frieza's blast as it completely overwhelmed Toppo.

When Android 17 initially blasted Toppo from the side (just moments before Ultimate Gohan launched his Kamehameha), Toppo grunted in pain. He looked to be in as much pain as when Frieza blasted him from behind. Plus, regular ki blasts from Android 17 actually pushed Toppo back while a charged up Kamehameha from Ultimate Gohan was tanked like nothing.

Ultimate Gohan's sneak attack against Toppo failed as Toppo grabbed him and tossed him aside like he was nothing. Not long after that, Android 17 actually rushed Toppo head-on and was able to tangle with him briefly. A strong implication that Android 17 is noticeably above Ultimate Gohan.

Android 17 took several hits from a Jiren that was fighting more seriously than he was when he faced initial UI Goku. Though this doesn't seem like much, it still shows that Android 17 has the means to at the very least hang with fighters that are notably stronger than the standard SSB-tier.

Some have argued that Android 17's performance against Jiren was a result of good strategy and unlimited stamina. However, neither of those things would enable him to clash fists with Jiren while tanking as much damage as he did. When Jiren felt provoked he decided to launch a ki blast at Android 17, who actually took the blast (with no barrier).

SSB Goku and Vegeta thought it was worth distracting Jiren long enough for Android 17 to blast him unexpectedly. When the plan failed, both Goku and Vegeta were seemingly shocked that Jiren was unscathed. Vegeta typically seems like the kind of guy who ridicules weaker fighters, but the fact that he was as surprised as he was definitely implies that he sees Android 17 as no pushover.

Android 17 tanked a blast that a semi-serious Jiren considered worthy of winning the tournament. Even though Android 17 was in bad shape after, it doesn't take away from the fact that it was still an amazing feat.

Even though Golden Frieza appeared to have done better against Jiren than Android 17, it's important to keep in mind that Android 17 was in really bad shape from Jiren's blast. He was in such bad shape even Goku had something to say about it right before the final clash. Android 17's comment about Jiren and Frieza could also have been about the level of resilience both of these fighters were displaying.

A character describing another as tough or amazing, doesn't automatically have to involve power. Goku often calls weaker fighters amazing or strong, does that mean they're all stronger than him? Goku indicated how powerful Android 17 was; does that mean Android 17 could wreck him in battle?

Also, saying Android 17 is only as strong as he is because of his barrier is basically no different than saying Goku and Vegeta are as powerful as they are because they could transform. Point is, the barrier is an extension of Android 17's power, much like transformations are an extension of a Saiyan's power.

Anyway, I feel that I've provided some solid points, and honestly don't feel like going in circles with anyone. If you feel that you disagree in any shape or form, that's on you; all I can say is, I adhere strictly to the points above and will not change my mind on the matter whatsoever. I can almost say that trying to debate with me on this matter may be a waste of time since I won't change my mind. And no, I'm not discrediting anyone's opinions or whatever; I just wanted to make it very clear that I will not change my mind regarding any of the points made above.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Not how debating works, at least here on the internet. People will debate against you regardless if youll change your mind or not. And debating its kind of the point of this thread.

[supercat]

Not how debating works, at least here on the internet. People will debate against you regardless if youll change your mind or not. And debating its kind of the point of this thread.

Did I say that's how debating works? I was simply letting people know that I've conveyed my thoughts and thus was not interested in further circling around the same topic. And why am I the only one that is being told this when I posted another thread that others didn't see the point in discussing again?

Me telling people that I won't change my mind doesn't defy the definition of debating in my opinion.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Ssj2 Kefla and GoD Toppo (both Bloodlusted and going for the kill. Kefla has no time limit) vs UI Goku Episode 129 (No strain and no time limit for the form)

[GodVegetto91]

Ssj2 Kefla and GoD Toppo (both Bloodlusted and going for the kill. Kefla has no time limit) vs UI Goku Episode 129 (No strain and no time limit for the form)

Uhm... Which version of UI?