Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[supercat]

The Black Hole feat does little to explain anything since, as I mentioned, Android 17 does seem to have the tendency to hold back. Saiyans can showcase how much they are holding back by using weaker transformations. Android 17 does not have that luxury and is thus much harder to gauge in terms of how suppressed he is.

I also don't care about those cards so I have no interest in talking about them.

I'll copy and paste a post I made earlier about why Android 17 is likely comparable to a current Super Saiyan Blue; but keep in mind, pushing back an attack that was about to crush five SSB-tier fighters and actually tangling with Toppo with a head-on attack when Gohan was tossed aside like nothing despite attacking from behind has little to do with skill or stamina in my opinion. There is also very little if not zero feats suggesting that Goku turning red makes him stronger than Android 17.

I honestly have Android 17 and Golden Frieza on par with one another for a number of reasons. I also think that Android 17 is quite comparable to current SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta; a tier that is seemingly 10x stronger (at least) than the the Super Saiyan Blues that fought in the universe 6 tournament.

Android 17 and SSB Goku fought evenly. Both fighters being suppressed does little to devalue the feat since Android 17 barely looked like he was even exerting himself.

After their brief yet amazing battle, Goku flat-out indicates that he is glad how Android 17 is no longer an enemy. Unless Android 17 was comparable to SSB Goku (who at that point could use Kaioken x20 on top of going SSB), would such a comment even make sense?

Android 17 pushed back (a good distance) and blitzed through a blast from Aniraza; the same blast that was on the verge of ringing out five SSB-tier fighters. In my opinion, the fact that Aniraza had this much power shows that he is at least comparable to SSB Goku Kaioken x10. Five SSB-tier fighters struggling as much as they did implies Aniraza was at least twice as strong as their collective effort.

Toppo was implied to be comparable to some form of SSB Goku's Kaioken yet he felt that his full power was needed to take on Android 17. Yes, Android 17 was losing the beam struggle, but it was no easy task for Toppo to push him to that point. Frieza had even indicated that Toppo wasn't in a position where he could fight back. If Toppo were really that much stronger than #17, he could have just fended off the blast with one hand while using the other to guard against Frieza. Either that, or he could have jumped out of the way, allowing Android 17's blast to hit Frieza. This could seemingly be done with a maneuver akin to what Goku did with Majin Vegeta's blast during the Buu saga martial arts tournament.

Android 17's blast injured Toppo quite a bit. On top of that, it even managed to engulf Frieza's blast as it completely overwhelmed Toppo.

When Android 17 initially blasted Toppo from the side (just moments before Ultimate Gohan launched his Kamehameha), Toppo grunted in pain. He looked to be in as much pain as when Frieza blasted him from behind. Plus, regular ki blasts from Android 17 actually pushed Toppo back while a charged up Kamehameha from Ultimate Gohan was tanked like nothing.

Ultimate Gohan's sneak attack against Toppo failed as Toppo grabbed him and tossed him aside like he was nothing. Not long after that, Android 17 actually rushed Toppo head-on and was able to tangle with him briefly. A strong implication that Android 17 is noticeably above Ultimate Gohan.

Android 17 took several hits from a Jiren that was fighting more seriously than he was when he faced initial UI Goku. Though this doesn't seem like much, it still shows that Android 17 has the means to at the very least hang with fighters that are notably stronger than the standard SSB-tier.

Some have argued that Android 17's performance against Jiren was a result of good strategy and unlimited stamina. However, neither of those things would enable him to clash fists with Jiren while tanking as much damage as he did. When Jiren felt provoked he decided to launch a ki blast at Android 17, who actually took the blast (with no barrier).

SSB Goku and Vegeta thought it was worth distracting Jiren long enough for Android 17 to blast him unexpectedly. When the plan failed, both Goku and Vegeta were seemingly shocked that Jiren was unscathed. Vegeta typically seems like the kind of guy who ridicules weaker fighters, but the fact that he was as surprised as he was definitely implies that he sees Android 17 as no pushover.

Android 17 tanked a blast that a semi-serious Jiren considered worthy of winning the tournament. Even though Android 17 was in bad shape after, it doesn't take away from the fact that it was still an amazing feat.

Even though Golden Frieza appeared to have done better against Jiren than Android 17, it's important to keep in mind that Android 17 was in really bad shape from Jiren's blast. He was in such bad shape even Goku had something to say about it right before the final clash. Android 17's comment about Jiren and Frieza could also have been about the level of resilience both of these fighters were displaying.

A character describing another as tough or amazing, doesn't automatically have to involve power. Goku often calls weaker fighters amazing or strong, does that mean they're all stronger than him? Goku indicated how powerful Android 17 was; does that mean Android 17 could wreck him in battle?

Also, saying Android 17 is only as strong as he is because of his barrier is basically no different than saying Goku and Vegeta are as powerful as they are because they could transform. Point is, the barrier is an extension of Android 17's power, much like transformations are an extension of a Saiyan's power.

[CJStriker_CBR]

I have had a question for a Good Time Now and it is NOT a criticism of the character, just an honestly question cause I have been wondering about it;

Android 17 got WAY Strong in the seemingly Decade since the Cell Saga, seemingly now on SSB-Tier, Post U6 Tournament Levels. But since then up till his comeback in Super we have not seen or heard much about 17 or of what 17 did to get this strong.

Was their something in Super or the Manga that explains his sudden power rise or how he got so strong or any theories fans have to why?!

[Bullza]

He did fight on par with Super Saiyan Blue Goku when they were both holding back but later in the Tournament, Android 17 performs a certain technique (I forgot what it was now) and Goku said to him that he knew he'd been holding something back, referring to their fight. Which makes it seem like Android 17 wasn't holding back power but techniques that he just didn't use against Goku.

I do think he's very strong, I just wouldn't say he's at that level because I think Toppo is at that level, not the Kaioken level and Android 17 was weaker than Toppo.

[supercat]

He did fight on par with Super Saiyan Blue Goku when they were both holding back but later in the Tournament, Android 17 performs a certain technique (I forgot what it was now) and Goku said to him that he knew he'd been holding something back, referring to their fight. Which makes it seem like Android 17 wasn't holding back power but techniques that he just didn't use against Goku.

I do think he's very strong, I just wouldn't say he's at that level because I think Toppo is at that level, not the Kaioken level and Android 17 was weaker than Toppo.

But usually when someone is said to be holding back it's pertaining to power. If it were skill related, it would have been emphasized a bit further. Trying to dig too deeply into something simple as both fighters suppressing their power reminds me a lot of how people used to try and find a different meaning behind what Beerus said about Base Goku and Frieza or about what Sorbet said about Tagoma and Shisami being Zarbon-tier. I think the purpose behind Android 17 vs SSB Goku was to show how powerful Android 17 was while showing that he still had power to spare. I said this before but I feel like Android 17 reaching SSB-tier is much akin to how he was stronger than regular Super Saiyan; meaning, this is a fighter who can keep up with legendary fighters and is very likely supposed to be a top contender himself.

Toppo being SSB-tier is arguable since he felt he could take on Goku even after seeing him flare up his Kaioken aura. Whis' father even indicated how they can both destroy each other if the fight continues. If Toppo wasn't Kaioken tier, I don't know if this statement would have been necessary.

I feel I've complied a lot of points pertaining to Android 17's power. It's easy to just assume his performance was a byproduct of good strategy, but tangling in a head-on hand to hand clash with a fighter that brushed aside Ultimate Gohan's sneak attack and clashing fists with a Jiren that was using way more power than the time he used one finger to fend Goku off when he went red are very likely power based feats. Even if Android 17 is weaker than current SSB Goku and Vegeta, there's a very good chance he's stronger than the level they were at as Super Saiyan Blue during the universe 6 tournament; they did seemingly get at least 10x stronger since then, so there's lots of room to fit Android 17 in.

Ultimately, I do acknowledge that Android 17 had some strategic feats that helped him out a lot, but to say the majority of his performance was due to that is inaccurate in my opinion. There are just as many if not way more that seemingly demonstrate his power.

There's also little keeping Android 17 from being a top contender; he's not a Piccolo or Krillin (both of whom had stagnated for quite some time) so nothing about his increase seems random or out of place. Android 17's limitations are ambiguous and his potential is likely vastly greater than most, so him powering up to Super Saiyan Blue level is not at all farfetched.

[Hugo Boss]

Was their something in Super or the Manga that explains his sudden power rise or how he got so strong or any theories fans have to why?!

“There”.. The manga actually touches on this. Piccolo asked what kind of training 17 does and he said that he only protects his island. My take is that 17’s energy has a quality similar to that of a god, since it’s virtually unlimited and undetectable, and he can continuosly exercise without putting a strain on his body.

[ZombieVito]

He did fight on par with Super Saiyan Blue Goku when they were both holding back but later in the Tournament, Android 17 performs a certain technique (I forgot what it was now) and Goku said to him that he knew he'd been holding something back, referring to their fight. Which makes it seem like Android 17 wasn't holding back power but techniques that he just didn't use against Goku.

I do think he's very strong, I just wouldn't say he's at that level because I think Toppo is at that level, not the Kaioken level and Android 17 was weaker than Toppo.

And 17 already admitted inferiority to Golden Freeza on E131. This was also a tired Golden Freeza.

[supercat]

Android 17 was in no shape to fight towards the end. Goku even subtly pointed this out when Android 17 was surprised Goku was still able to move. This would also explain why Goku asked Android 17 to stay back. I mean, the guy took a charged up blast from a semi-serious Jiren; he barely even managed to get himself out of the rubble. I mean, Golden Frieza vs Android 17 is one thing, but Ultimate Gohan is likely out of the question when. Ultimate Gohan's sneak attack (kick from behind) to a distracted Toppo resulted in nothing more than Toppo grabbing the kick and tossing Gohan away like he was nothing. Then Android 17 rushed Toppo head-on (no sneak attack) and actually pushed him back in a brief hand to hand scuffle.

There's also Ultimate Gohan's Kamehameha not doing a thing to Toppo, yet a casual ki blast from Android 17 caused Toppo to grunt in pain. Both seemingly caught Toppo off guard so there isn't much debate there.

The beam struggle with Android 17 also required Toppo's full power; and even then, Android 17 was able to hang in there for a bit making Toppo really push for it. If Toppo was really that much stronger than Android 17, he could have just used one hand to continue the beam struggle while using the other to try and take on Frieza. Or why didn't he just jump out of the way and let Android 17's blast hit Frieza? Goku was able to do this with Majin Vegeta's blast at the Buu saga tournament, so it shouldn't be that hard for Toppo who is supposedly worlds above Android 17 right? Frieza even pointed out how Toppo couldn't fight back, which strongly suggests Toppo had to give his all to his beam struggle against Android 17.

Even if Android 17 is slightly weaker than current Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta, there is so much room for him to be stronger than they were rom the universe 6 tournament as both Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta had seemingly gotten at least 10x stronger since then. There's also almost zero chance that Super Saiyan Red Goku is stronger than Android 17.

When Goku was testing out the different levels of Super Saiyan against Jiren, Jiren used one finger to nonchalantly defend himself against Super Saiyan Red Goku's attacks. Android 17 was able to dodge hits and clash fists with a Jiren that was seemingly using far more power than he was during that time Goku was testing him.

Yes, Android 17 has some feats that were likely a byproduct of great strategy, but things like pushing back an attack that was on the verge of ringing out 5 SSB-tier fighters, clashing fists with someone who fended off Super Saiyan Red Goku with one finger, holding up in a beam clash, and causing struggle are clearly a result of power.

At the very least, I have the following:

SSB Goku / Vegeta (ToP) / Golden Frieza > / = Android 17 >> Ultimate Gohan (ToP) > SSB Goku / Vegeta (Universe 6 Tournament) > Super Saiyan Red Goku (ToP)

But me personally, I have Android 17 and Frieza on par with each other. It's honestly not that farfetched in my opinion for Android 17 to be as strong as he is when we consider how powerful he started off.

[PFM18]

It is also I Agree with you it is hard to figure Ribrianne's level of power like we could with Jiren, Kale or CauliflaI's fights since Toei seemed to take more care in showing Goku's level ups during different parts of the fights. I Think the writers sadly made it difficult to tell for Ribrianne cause they dropped the ball on the Goku/Ribrianne fight in sadly Not showing more Levels from Goku then just Base form and Blue form.

I think this is kind of it in a nutshell. Toei/Toriyama wasn't as clear about Ribrianne's power as they were for other characters. For whatever reason, I don't know, but I think they purposely left it pretty ambiguous.

SB Goku / Vegeta (ToP) / Golden Frieza > / = Android 17 >> Ultimate Gohan (ToP) > SSB Goku / Vegeta (Universe 6 Tournament) > Super Saiyan Red Goku (ToP)

I agree with this.

[supercat]

It is also I Agree with you it is hard to figure Ribrianne's level of power like we could with Jiren, Kale or CauliflaI's fights since Toei seemed to take more care in showing Goku's level ups during different parts of the fights. I Think the writers sadly made it difficult to tell for Ribrianne cause they dropped the ball on the Goku/Ribrianne fight in sadly Not showing more Levels from Goku then just Base form and Blue form.

I think this is kind of it in a nutshell. Toei/Toriyama wasn't as clear about Ribrianne's power as they were for other characters. For whatever reason, I don't know, but I think they purposely left it pretty ambiguous.

SB Goku / Vegeta (ToP) / Golden Frieza > / = Android 17 >> Ultimate Gohan (ToP) > SSB Goku / Vegeta (Universe 6 Tournament) > Super Saiyan Red Goku (ToP)

I agree with this.

Haha did you mean to quote me?

So you agree that Android 17 would wreck SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta from the Universe 6 Tournament right?

[Marlowe89]

I think this is kind of it in a nutshell. Toei/Toriyama wasn't as clear about Ribrianne's power as they were for other characters. For whatever reason, I don't know, but I think they purposely left it pretty ambiguous.

Now there's something we can both agree on. Her power clearly seems to vary in both mediums, with the manga even implementing a specific mechanic behind it. I'd wager it was either intentionally vague in the outline or Toei themselves set a precedent for it with how they chose to portray her in the story.

[PFM18]

It is also I Agree with you it is hard to figure Ribrianne's level of power like we could with Jiren, Kale or CauliflaI's fights since Toei seemed to take more care in showing Goku's level ups during different parts of the fights. I Think the writers sadly made it difficult to tell for Ribrianne cause they dropped the ball on the Goku/Ribrianne fight in sadly Not showing more Levels from Goku then just Base form and Blue form.

I think this is kind of it in a nutshell. Toei/Toriyama wasn't as clear about Ribrianne's power as they were for other characters. For whatever reason, I don't know, but I think they purposely left it pretty ambiguous.

SB Goku / Vegeta (ToP) / Golden Frieza > / = Android 17 >> Ultimate Gohan (ToP) > SSB Goku / Vegeta (Universe 6 Tournament) > Super Saiyan Red Goku (ToP)

I agree with this.

Haha did you mean to quote me?

So you agree that Android 17 would wreck SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta from the Universe 6 Tournament right?

ah my bad I quoted the wrong person. My apologies. I agree with the idea of:

SSB Goku/Vegeta/Golden Freeza>Android 17>>Ultimate Gohan

in the ToP. I really am not entirely sure how they compare to previous characters I'd have to think about it more. But as of now it makes sense to me that 17 would be stronger than U6 SSB Goku and Vegeta. 17 could easily fit in that giant gap between them

I think this is kind of it in a nutshell. Toei/Toriyama wasn't as clear about Ribrianne's power as they were for other characters. For whatever reason, I don't know, but I think they purposely left it pretty ambiguous.

Now there's something we can both agree on. Her power clearly seems to vary in both mediums, with the manga even implementing a specific mechanic behind it. I'd wager it was either intentionally vague in the outline or Toei themselves set a precedent for it with how they chose to portray her in the story.

I wish the anime showed that mechanic or atleast showed it more clearly. It would clear up a lot of confusion.

[supercat]

Haha did you mean to quote me?

So you agree that Android 17 would wreck SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta from the Universe 6 Tournament right?

ah my bad I quoted the wrong person. My apologies. I agree with the idea of:

SSB Goku/Vegeta/Golden Freeza>Android 17>>Ultimate Gohan

in the ToP. I really am not entirely sure how they compare to previous characters I'd have to think about it more. But as of now it makes sense to me that 17 would be stronger than U6 SSB Goku and Vegeta. 17 could easily fit in that giant gap between them

Yeah, Android 17 has numerous feats that at the least place him above SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta (Universe 6 Tournament). Also, Android 17 is very likely a lot stronger than current Red Goku. Android 17 was able to dodge hits and clash fists with a semi-serious Jiren whereas a suppressed Jiren effortlessly fended off Red Goku with one finger.

[shadd21]

Is Kefla stronger than Buu arc Vegetto?

[JazzMazz]

Is Kefla stronger than Buu arc Vegetto?

Yes.
By a huge margin.

[shadd21]

How is that possible? Are potara earrings of U6 more powerful than those of U7?

[Hugo Boss]

How is that possible? Are potara earrings of U6 more powerful than those of U7?

They are the same Potara. The difference is that Kefla has SS2 and the Saiyan girls might be stronger than Goku and Vegeta from Majin Boo era.

[Koitsukai]

How is that possible? Are potara earrings of U6 more powerful than those of U7?

They are the same Potara. The difference is that Kefla has SS2 and the Saiyan girls might be stronger than Goku and Vegeta from Majin Boo era.

Also you have a freak of nature like Kale being a part of Kefla. U-6 saiyajin are missing their tails and according to Cabba it was evolution, so maybe the ohzaru was replaced with more raw power in their base, making the girls members of a better version of the saiyajin race.

[ZombieVito]

How is that possible? Are potara earrings of U6 more powerful than those of U7?

They are the same Potara. The difference is that Kefla has SS2 and the Saiyan girls might be stronger than Goku and Vegeta from Majin Boo era.

Might?

They are way stronger, even stronger than Gotenks easily.

[JazzMazz]

How is that possible? Are potara earrings of U6 more powerful than those of U7?

Well, they're are ridiculously more powerful than Goku and Vegeta were back then, so, logicially, their fusion would be considerably more powerful.

[PFM18]

How is that possible? Are potara earrings of U6 more powerful than those of U7?

Well, they're are ridiculously more powerful than Goku and Vegeta were back then, so, logicially, their fusion would be considerably more powerful.

This.

The difference between Goku in the Buu Arc and Caulifla is absolutely tremendous. So naturally the fusion is much stronger