Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

The Black Hole feat does little to explain anything since, as I mentioned, Android 17 does seem to have the tendency to hold back. Saiyans can showcase how much they are holding back by using weaker transformations. Android 17 does not have that luxury and is thus much harder to gauge in terms of how suppressed he is.

I also don't care about those cards so I have no interest in talking about them.

I'll copy and paste a post I made earlier about why Android 17 is likely comparable to a current Super Saiyan Blue; but keep in mind, pushing back an attack that was about to crush five SSB-tier fighters and actually tangling with Toppo with a head-on attack when Gohan was tossed aside like nothing despite attacking from behind has little to do with skill or stamina in my opinion. There is also very little if not zero feats suggesting that Goku turning red makes him stronger than Android 17.

I honestly have Android 17 and Golden Frieza on par with one another for a number of reasons. I also think that Android 17 is quite comparable to current SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta; a tier that is seemingly 10x stronger (at least) than the the Super Saiyan Blues that fought in the universe 6 tournament.

Android 17 and SSB Goku fought evenly. Both fighters being suppressed does little to devalue the feat since Android 17 barely looked like he was even exerting himself.

After their brief yet amazing battle, Goku flat-out indicates that he is glad how Android 17 is no longer an enemy. Unless Android 17 was comparable to SSB Goku (who at that point could use Kaioken x20 on top of going SSB), would such a comment even make sense?

Android 17 pushed back (a good distance) and blitzed through a blast from Aniraza; the same blast that was on the verge of ringing out five SSB-tier fighters. In my opinion, the fact that Aniraza had this much power shows that he is at least comparable to SSB Goku Kaioken x10. Five SSB-tier fighters struggling as much as they did implies Aniraza was at least twice as strong as their collective effort.

Toppo was implied to be comparable to some form of SSB Goku's Kaioken yet he felt that his full power was needed to take on Android 17. Yes, Android 17 was losing the beam struggle, but it was no easy task for Toppo to push him to that point. Frieza had even indicated that Toppo wasn't in a position where he could fight back. If Toppo were really that much stronger than #17, he could have just fended off the blast with one hand while using the other to guard against Frieza. Either that, or he could have jumped out of the way, allowing Android 17's blast to hit Frieza. This could seemingly be done with a maneuver akin to what Goku did with Majin Vegeta's blast during the Buu saga martial arts tournament.

Android 17's blast injured Toppo quite a bit. On top of that, it even managed to engulf Frieza's blast as it completely overwhelmed Toppo.

When Android 17 initially blasted Toppo from the side (just moments before Ultimate Gohan launched his Kamehameha), Toppo grunted in pain. He looked to be in as much pain as when Frieza blasted him from behind. Plus, regular ki blasts from Android 17 actually pushed Toppo back while a charged up Kamehameha from Ultimate Gohan was tanked like nothing.

Ultimate Gohan's sneak attack against Toppo failed as Toppo grabbed him and tossed him aside like he was nothing. Not long after that, Android 17 actually rushed Toppo head-on and was able to tangle with him briefly. A strong implication that Android 17 is noticeably above Ultimate Gohan.

Android 17 took several hits from a Jiren that was fighting more seriously than he was when he faced initial UI Goku. Though this doesn't seem like much, it still shows that Android 17 has the means to at the very least hang with fighters that are notably stronger than the standard SSB-tier.

Some have argued that Android 17's performance against Jiren was a result of good strategy and unlimited stamina. However, neither of those things would enable him to clash fists with Jiren while tanking as much damage as he did. When Jiren felt provoked he decided to launch a ki blast at Android 17, who actually took the blast (with no barrier).

SSB Goku and Vegeta thought it was worth distracting Jiren long enough for Android 17 to blast him unexpectedly. When the plan failed, both Goku and Vegeta were seemingly shocked that Jiren was unscathed. Vegeta typically seems like the kind of guy who ridicules weaker fighters, but the fact that he was as surprised as he was definitely implies that he sees Android 17 as no pushover.

Android 17 tanked a blast that a semi-serious Jiren considered worthy of winning the tournament. Even though Android 17 was in bad shape after, it doesn't take away from the fact that it was still an amazing feat.

Even though Golden Frieza appeared to have done better against Jiren than Android 17, it's important to keep in mind that Android 17 was in really bad shape from Jiren's blast. He was in such bad shape even Goku had something to say about it right before the final clash. Android 17's comment about Jiren and Frieza could also have been about the level of resilience both of these fighters were displaying.

A character describing another as tough or amazing, doesn't automatically have to involve power. Goku often calls weaker fighters amazing or strong, does that mean they're all stronger than him? Goku indicated how powerful Android 17 was; does that mean Android 17 could wreck him in battle?

Also, saying Android 17 is only as strong as he is because of his barrier is basically no different than saying Goku and Vegeta are as powerful as they are because they could transform. Point is, the barrier is an extension of Android 17's power, much like transformations are an extension of a Saiyan's power.

But 17 really never traded blows or physically endured anything from a high caliber fighter like Freeza has. Jiren PHYSICALLY punked 17 unlike Freeza who trades blows with him in the finale.

[Hugo Boss]

But 17 really never traded blows or physically endured anything from a high caliber fighter like Freeza has. Jiren PHYSICALLY punked 17 unlike Freeza who trades blows with him in the finale.

I think he has a good point about 17 being damaged from Jiren’s blast, which could have affected his strength in some way. That could explain why Goku and Freeza took the front line while 17 was left behind to be the long-range support.

[Miracles]

I think he has a good point about 17 being damaged from Jiren’s blast, which could have affected his strength in some way. That could explain why Goku and Freeza took the front line while 17 was left behind to be the long-range support.

Which Ki blast is he/she speaking of?

[Hugo Boss]

I think he has a good point about 17 being damaged from Jiren’s blast, which could have affected his strength in some way. That could explain why Goku and Freeza took the front line while 17 was left behind to be the long-range support.

Which Ki blast is he/she speaking of?

The one which 17 cancelled out with his own self-destructive explosion. But you could say the one which 17 produced to take down Jiren was a double-edged move as well and helped to weaken him even more.

[Miracles]

The one which 17 cancelled out with his own self-destructive explosion. But you could say the one which 17 produced to take down Jiren was a double-edged move as well and helped to weaken him even more.

That was 17 surviving his own destruction as 18 and Piccolo confirm.17 answers and said it was a gamble, when he makes his return.
Freeza "withstood" Toppo's Hakai directly and faced Dyspo before and also got wrecked by Jiren. Yet he still could go toe-to-toe unlike 17 hence why 17 says they are tough ones.

[supercat]

But 17 really never traded blows or physically endured anything from a high caliber fighter like Freeza has. Jiren PHYSICALLY punked 17 unlike Freeza who trades blows with him in the finale.

I think he has a good point about 17 being damaged from Jiren’s blast, which could have affected his strength in some way. That could explain why Goku and Freeza took the front line while 17 was left behind to be the long-range support.

I agree with this. Goku even implies it with a smart remark when Android 17 asks how he is still able to move. Whether the damage inflicted on Android 17 was caused by his own blast or whether it was from tanking Jiren's attack isn't as significant; the point is, he stopped a really strong attack (that was likely intended to seal the deal for Universe 11), but took heavy damage as a result of how powerful said attack was.

There was also a scene where Android 17 clashed fists with a semi-serious Jiren that was seemingly putting out way more power than he was during the time he fought the different stages of Goku's transformations (Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan Red). This is especially important in helping to determine Android 17's power since a suppressed Jiren was able to nonchalantly fend off Super Saiyan Red Goku with one finger; a feat that strongly implies Android 17 >> Super Saiyan Red Goku at the very least.

[ankokudaishogun]

then again, Jiren appears to have the tendency to match his adversary's power, see how he was "weaker" against Vegeta than against Goku.
Which matches with his modus operandi described by Belmod: he lets his adversary leash out with all their might, only to tank everything and then annihilate them with invincible strength.

[supercat]

then again, Jiren appears to have the tendency to match his adversary's power, see how he was "weaker" against Vegeta than against Goku.
Which matches with his modus operandi described by Belmod: he lets his adversary leash out with all their might, only to tank everything and then annihilate them with invincible strength.

If that theory were true, Jiren wouldn't have used one finger against Super Saiyan Red Goku. He just stood there, using one finger to effortlessly stop Goku's attacks. There's also how he didn't even bother blocking or dodging when Goku was using his other transformations (excluding Blue). It really wouldn't make sense for Jiren to match Android 17's power but not do the same for Goku initially. Plus, this was a powered up Jiren who was in the midst of also taking on Goku and Vegeta; it'd be odd and a bit out of place for him to suddenly suppress himself down to the level he used initially, just for Android 17.

Point is, Android 17 has enough feats that place him above Super Saiyan Red at the very least in my opinion. Personally, I have him a good amount stronger than SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta from the Universe 6 Tournament, considering how the duo seemingly got 10x stronger between that tournament and the ToP.

[PFM18]

then again, Jiren appears to have the tendency to match his adversary's power, see how he was "weaker" against Vegeta than against Goku.
Which matches with his modus operandi described by Belmod: he lets his adversary leash out with all their might, only to tank everything and then annihilate them with invincible strength.

Yeah this makes sense since 1st UI Omen Goku was obviously much stronger than Vegeta in 122 and Jiren used much less power against him

[ankokudaishogun]

It really wouldn't make sense for Jiren to match Android 17's power but not do the same for Goku initially.

But he did.
Jiren did match #17's max power and Goku's Max Power.
Goku's max power was Blue: Jiren therefore matched it and didn't bother with the other forms.

it'd be odd and a bit out of place for him to suddenly suppress himself down to the level he used initially, just for Android 17.

Not really, it appears being his modus operandi and he was strong enough to actually pull it off.

Frankly, the more one analyze Jiren, the scariest his power becomes

[Bullza]

How strong was Gohan during the Battle of God's saga? He fought Beerus but wouldn't have appeared to be in his Ultimate form.

He just fought him in his Base form for some bizarre reason and Piccolo even after seeing Beerus stomp everyone else was still surprised to see how easily Gohan lost.

[dbgtFO]

How strong was Gohan during the Battle of God's saga? He fought Beerus but wouldn't have appeared to be in his Ultimate form.

He just fought him in his Base form for some bizarre reason and Piccolo even after seeing Beerus stomp everyone else was still surprised to see how easily Gohan lost.

Yeah, it's funny how even back then, the opening shows us he gets a bang, when going ultimate, but that not happening, when fighting Beerus. That gives us some evodence to say he wasn't ultimate, when fighting, which is bizarre. But Gohan also thought Gotenks was giving it his all, yet Gotenks was only in base form too.. so perhaps Piccolo was a dumbass too for being shocked at base Gohan getting defeated so easily?
In any case I'd just say he's barely stronger than his Buu Arc base form post Z-Sword and just leave it at that.

[Bullza]

We'll offer still is that in both the movie and also the manga, Gohan did appear to be in his Ultimate Form.

So I don't know what was going on with the anime. Maybe they thought that considering he was meant to be so weak by Resurrection F that it didn't make sense for him to still have his Ultimate Form.

[SayianBeyondGod]

This something I wanna get off my chest here, especially with the comparison between the father-son galick gun and Goku's kamekameha against Fused Zamasu's divine purification during episode 66 in DBS. A lot of people have the agenda that Goku's kamekameha is suddenly more powerful than the father-son galick gun which is all wrong. People don't realize that the difference is that the father-son galick gun was trying to overpower and push back the entire divine purification surface area hence more force required. Where as Goku full power Kamekameha only managed to penetrated a smaller hole, hence less force required. This goes without sayin Goku had more time to recover than Vegeta and pushed push his limits hence why he injured his arms.

I honestly I don't believe Goku during the Future Trunks arc surpassed Vegeta or even Trunks individually. Especially at the point where he's stronger than the both of them combined, which is already absurd.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

This something I wanna get off my chest here, especially with the comparison between the father-son galick gun and Goku's kamekameha against Fused Zamasu's divine purification during episode 66 in DBS. A lot of people have the agenda that Goku's kamekameha is suddenly more powerful than the father-son galick gun which is all wrong. People don't realize that the difference is that the father-son galick gun was trying to overpower and push back the entire divine purification surface area hence more force required. Where as Goku full power Kamekameha only managed to penetrated a smaller hole, hence less force required. This goes without sayin Goku had more time to recover than Vegeta and pushed push his limits hence why he injured his arms.

I honestly I don't believe Goku during the Future Trunks arc surpassed Vegeta or even Trunks individually. Especially at the point where he's stronger than the both of them combined, which is already absurd.

That's not to mention that Goku put so much damn power into that Kamehameha that it broke his damn arms!

A Full-Power Kamehameha is RIDICULOUSLY strong compared to its user, far outstripping the user's normal limits.

[HeroR]

then again, Jiren appears to have the tendency to match his adversary's power, see how he was "weaker" against Vegeta than against Goku.
Which matches with his modus operandi described by Belmod: he lets his adversary leash out with all their might, only to tank everything and then annihilate them with invincible strength.

If that theory were true, Jiren wouldn't have used one finger against Super Saiyan Red Goku. He just stood there, using one finger to effortlessly stop Goku's attacks. There's also how he didn't even bother blocking or dodging when Goku was using his other transformations (excluding Blue). It really wouldn't make sense for Jiren to match Android 17's power but not do the same for Goku initially. Plus, this was a powered up Jiren who was in the midst of also taking on Goku and Vegeta; it'd be odd and a bit out of place for him to suddenly suppress himself down to the level he used initially, just for Android 17.

Point is, Android 17 has enough feats that place him above Super Saiyan Red at the very least in my opinion. Personally, I have him a good amount stronger than SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta from the Universe 6 Tournament, considering how the duo seemingly got 10x stronger between that tournament and the ToP.

Want to add, he really can't match 17's power because he can't even sense him. So how would he even know how strong or weak 17 is.

This something I wanna get off my chest here, especially with the comparison between the father-son galick gun and Goku's kamekameha against Fused Zamasu's divine purification during episode 66 in DBS. A lot of people have the agenda that Goku's kamekameha is suddenly more powerful than the father-son galick gun which is all wrong. People don't realize that the difference is that the father-son galick gun was trying to overpower and push back the entire divine purification surface area hence more force required. Where as Goku full power Kamekameha only managed to penetrated a smaller hole, hence less force required. This goes without sayin Goku had more time to recover than Vegeta and pushed push his limits hence why he injured his arms.

I honestly I don't believe Goku during the Future Trunks arc surpassed Vegeta or even Trunks individually. Especially at the point where he's stronger than the both of them combined, which is already absurd.

That's not to mention that Goku put so much damn power into that Kamehameha that it broke his damn arms!

A Full-Power Kamehameha is RIDICULOUSLY strong compared to its user, far outstripping the user's normal limits.

So does the Galick Gun since we saw way back in the Saiyan Saga that the two techniques are evenly match. Even guides more or less say they're equal. So if Goku pushed back something a Kamehameha, it means he himself was stronger than the person shooting the Galick Gun.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

That's not to mention that Goku put so much damn power into that Kamehameha that it broke his damn arms!

A Full-Power Kamehameha is RIDICULOUSLY strong compared to its user, far outstripping the user's normal limits.

So does the Galick Gun since we saw way back in the Saiyan Saga that the two techniques are evenly match. Even guides more or less say they're equal. So if Goku pushed back something a Kamehameha, it means he himself was stronger than the person shooting the Galick Gun.

See, but that's the thing: The two have to be putting out the same kind of limit-breaking power to be equal.

Vegeta and Future Trunks, though they put a lot of effort in, clearly didn't strain their bodies to the point of breaking. Goku did, and he ended up breaking his arms for his effort. That shows that he put so a lot more power into his single Kamehameha than Vegeta or Future Trunks did with their individual Galick Guns.

[HeroR]

[
See, but that's the thing: The two have to be putting out the same kind of limit-breaking power to be equal.

Vegeta and Future Trunks, though they put a lot of effort in, clearly didn't strain their bodies to the point of breaking. Goku did, and he ended up breaking his arms for his effort. That shows that he put so a lot more power into his single Kamehameha than Vegeta or Future Trunks did with their individual Galick Guns.

If Vegeta and Trunks together are stronger than Goku, then they wouldn't have to strain themselves to do the same amount of damage as Goku.

[Simere]

This something I wanna get off my chest here, especially with the comparison between the father-son galick gun and Goku's kamekameha against Fused Zamasu's divine purification during episode 66 in DBS. A lot of people have the agenda that Goku's kamekameha is suddenly more powerful than the father-son galick gun which is all wrong. People don't realize that the difference is that the father-son galick gun was trying to overpower and push back the entire divine purification surface area hence more force required. Where as Goku full power Kamekameha only managed to penetrated a smaller hole, hence less force required. This goes without sayin Goku had more time to recover than Vegeta and pushed push his limits hence why he injured his arms.

I honestly I don't believe Goku during the Future Trunks arc surpassed Vegeta or even Trunks individually. Especially at the point where he's stronger than the both of them combined, which is already absurd.

As someone with that "agenda"—or what I call a straightforward viewing of the episode—you haven't convinced me. Can you elaborate more on your assessment of ki blast collision physics? Specifically how penetration would necessarily take less force? And how you know what either blast was trying to do?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

This something I wanna get off my chest here, especially with the comparison between the father-son galick gun and Goku's kamekameha against Fused Zamasu's divine purification during episode 66 in DBS. A lot of people have the agenda that Goku's kamekameha is suddenly more powerful than the father-son galick gun which is all wrong. People don't realize that the difference is that the father-son galick gun was trying to overpower and push back the entire divine purification surface area hence more force required. Where as Goku full power Kamekameha only managed to penetrated a smaller hole, hence less force required. This goes without sayin Goku had more time to recover than Vegeta and pushed push his limits hence why he injured his arms.

I honestly I don't believe Goku during the Future Trunks arc surpassed Vegeta or even Trunks individually. Especially at the point where he's stronger than the both of them combined, which is already absurd.

As someone with that "agenda"—or what I call a straightforward viewing of the episode—you haven't convinced me. Can you elaborate more on your assessment of ki blast collision physics? Specifically how penetration would necessarily take less force? And how you know what either blast was trying to do?

Well, I'll try to at least give it my thoughts, but these are just personal observations.

When you have an inflated ball, trying to struggle against it with a smaller but also inflated ball won't produce much surface area to focus that force. If you use a cylinder, though, you have a better chance at punching right through because the force is focused into a smaller point.

Of course, I don't necessarily agree with his/her/squid's assessment myself; I think Goku putting out so much power beyond his limits that it overtook even the Father-Son Galick Gun at the expense of his arms is still more likely, especially given how powerful the Kamehameha can get.