"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Bergamo]

What triumphs? Migatte no Gokui doesn't need foreshadowing here.

So you think a new power coming out of completely nowhere is fine?

Well no it isn't. Which is exactly why it will be awful when it suddenly arises at the end of the tournament with the only build up being Goku saying "yeah so I totally want to unlock this power Hit. I don't have a choice I have to attain it!" and then boom he suddenly knows exactly how to use it to it's full extent. No struggle, no learning process, he is just going to have it. Using Omen as a way of giving Goku a struggle to finally learn to complete the abilities of Ultra Instinct over the course of a series of fights that push him to his limits is infinitely better than it being mentioned a couple times then it is used during the climactic moments just because. This is not a "triumph" of the manga in any capacity. It's entirely inorganic and not cohesive whatsoever.

Why do you always complain about the manga before anything happens. It reeks of bias. Kefla vs Gohan is apparently bad according to you, which is weird because it hasn't happened yet. You also say that Ultra Instinct in the manga will be bad, but it hasn't appeared yet. You won't like the new chapters of the manga because you already have it in your head that they will be bad.

They actually did hint Migatte no Goku'i at the start of the Survival arc when Goku dodged Bulma like he was in trance.

That doesn't make a lot of sense. Nothing else hints that Goku had UI before he was hit with the spirit bomb. Besides, dodging Bulma isn't really that impressive. Foreshadowing also isn't usually done in one-off episodes.

Even if you want to count that, it's obviously not as effective as the foreshadowing in the manga.

I don't know what exactly you mean of the manga but it was a hint in the anime. There is no point in showing a random dodging for no reason. And it was not "shown as random dodging" either. It is all about how it is done. Also it is very well normal foreshadowing, not actually saying he has Migatte. It only shows "okay, guys, he is on his way". That is all that is necessary.

It doesn't make sense for Goku to be on his way to UI when it all happens at once after he gets hit with the spirit bomb. Why didn't he dodge during any actual fights? Why was it only one random time with Bulma?

[Cetra]

It doesn't make sense for Goku to be on his way to UI when it all happens at once after he gets hit with the spirit bomb. Why didn't he dodge during any actual fights? Why was it only one random time with Bulma?

Exactly for the reason I mentioned twice already. It was merely foreshadowing. He had not achieved it at that point. He was like in trance when he did and it was only a small glimpse of what happened when his body reacts for him. You do not need to foreshadow the same thing 70 times, especially not if he is not really able to pull it off right now. Just adding "it does not make sense" to comments does not invalidate previously mentioned points. No one said he was able to really use Migatte at that point already efficiently and willingly. Also this whole "why did he not use it in episode xy" game needs to die in games and books. Because the writers did not want it. They want to write what they want to write. That's why. They have more than one writer in that show. Who knows if anyone except the one who was responsible for the scene actually remembers it.

[Jesus-is Lord]

It doesn't make sense for Goku to be on his way to UI when it all happens at once after he gets hit with the spirit bomb. Why didn't he dodge during any actual fights? Why was it only one random time with Bulma?

Exactly for the reason I mentioned twice already. It was merely foreshadowing. He had not achieved it at that point. He was like in trance when he did and it was only a small glimpse of what happened when his body reacts for him. You do not need to foreshadow the same thing 70 times, especially not if he is not really able to pull it off right now. Just adding "it does not make sense" to comments does not invalidate previously mentioned points. No one said he was able to really use Migatte at that point already efficiently and willingly. Also this whole "why did he not use it in episode xy" game needs to die in games and books. Because the writers did not want it. They want to write what they want to write. That's why. They have more than one writer in that show. Who knows if anyone except the one who was responsible for the scene actually remembers it.

What do you think the manga will do with UI?

[Bergamo]

It doesn't make sense for Goku to be on his way to UI when it all happens at once after he gets hit with the spirit bomb. Why didn't he dodge during any actual fights? Why was it only one random time with Bulma?

Exactly for the reason I mentioned twice already. It was merely foreshadowing. He had not achieved it at that point. He was like in trance when he did and it was only a small glimpse of what happened when his body reacts for him. You do not need to foreshadow the same thing 70 times, especially not if he is not really able to pull it off right now. Just adding "it does not make sense" to comments does not invalidate previously mentioned points. No one said he was able to really use Migatte at that point already efficiently and willingly. Also this whole "why did he not use it in episode xy" game needs to die in games and books. Because the writers did not want it. They want to write what they want to write. That's why. They have more than one writer in that show. Who knows if anyone except the one who was responsible for the scene actually remembers it.

I'm just saying that Whis clearly outlining the power that Goku and Vegeta need to obtain in order to accomplish their goal of surpassing is something that the anime could have used.

[reecehoward]

It's not out of nowhere, it was talked about in F. Also, SS3, as mentioned.

Mentioning something 3 arcs in advance isn't proper foreshadowing.

The entire premise of the form makes little sense. So it's a technique that somehow gives you the power-up beyond ssj blue kaioken x 20? What!? And you achieve it by "surviving a near death expirence" or "breaking your limits to survive a near death expirence" - how does that translate to achieving a transformation that's multiplayer is greater ssj blue kaioken - while not be a sayain form - while also giving you the super power of instinctively dodge. That's UI - a huge transformation that just gives you the power to dodge. And does UI use god ki or regular ki? Never estbalished and what is that aura around it? It looks so pretty but the value of it decreases because it has no implicative meaning for its existence because Jiren can somehow produce the same aura.

This is why I don't think UI is that good of a form, hopefully the manga can explain things better though I doubt.

You and I don't agree on much, but THIS is definitely something I wholeheartedly agree with. UI as a powerup makes absolutely no sense, especially to the degree that was shown in the anime. I could see if it just added that extra layer of defense and instinct that his fighting style lacked overall, with the power boost itself just being a product of a zenkai, but as a straight up super saiyan-like transformation is where it just gets convoluted. Furthermore, it just increases the already over-inflated powerscale. There are already people having issues, understandably, with Broly being as strong as he's being hinted at because of the ToP.

[PFM18]

Why do you always complain about the manga before anything happens. It reeks of bias. Kefla vs Gohan is apparently bad according to you, which is weird because it hasn't happened yet. You also say that Ultra Instinct in the manga will be bad, but it hasn't appeared yet. You won't like the new chapters of the manga because you already have it in your head that they will be bad.

Have you ever heard of the phrase "attack the argument not the person"? My comments about Kefla vs Gohan that I since have apologized for and admitting that they are premature, are completely and totally irrelevant.

The struggle of Goku learning how to auto-dodge through breaking his limits, then struggling to gain to learn the other side of Ultra Instinct is something that makes it ultimately more gratifying. Without UI Omen, it is obviously going to feel like Goku didn't work for it and that he didn't earn it. Won't be as gratifying/rewarding that way. I probably won't like the new chapters because the ones they are building on have been offensively bad.

[Lord Beerus]

Well, people really like SSJ3...

I'm tired of this false equivalency.

Super Saiyan 3 cannot be compared to the likes of Super anime's ultra instinct, or "beyond blue", or Trunk's "rage form". Super Saiyan 3 was meant to be a red herring. The form never won a single fight and was introduced to make distract the reader/viewer: the real powerup mechanic of the Buu arc was fusion. It was a nice spin on things, where every previous arc was about getting new forms and techniques, Super Saiyan 3 was objectively a bad form and stated as such within the story.

If Goku turned Super Saiyan 3 out of nowhere, and proceeded to kill Buu, THEN it would be comparable to what the Super anime does.

How the form performed in battle has nothing to do with the fact that SSJ3 had zero foreshadowing or build-up. Hence why I brought it up in the discussion in the first place.

[Bergamo]

Well, people really like SSJ3...

I'm tired of this false equivalency.

Super Saiyan 3 cannot be compared to the likes of Super anime's ultra instinct, or "beyond blue", or Trunk's "rage form". Super Saiyan 3 was meant to be a red herring. The form never won a single fight and was introduced to make distract the reader/viewer: the real powerup mechanic of the Buu arc was fusion. It was a nice spin on things, where every previous arc was about getting new forms and techniques, Super Saiyan 3 was objectively a bad form and stated as such within the story.

If Goku turned Super Saiyan 3 out of nowhere, and proceeded to kill Buu, THEN it would be comparable to what the Super anime does.

How the form performed in battle has nothing to do with the fact that SSJ3 had zero foreshadowing or build-up. Hence why I brought it up in the discussion in the first place.

I think SS3 is closer to SSB, because they are both evolved versions of Goku's previous form, and he obtained them through offscreen training.

[Jesus-is Lord]

Mentioning something 3 arcs in advance isn't proper foreshadowing.

The entire premise of the form makes little sense. So it's a technique that somehow gives you the power-up beyond ssj blue kaioken x 20? What!? And you achieve it by "surviving a near death expirence" or "breaking your limits to survive a near death expirence" - how does that translate to achieving a transformation that's multiplayer is greater ssj blue kaioken - while not be a sayain form - while also giving you the super power of instinctively dodge. That's UI - a huge transformation that just gives you the power to dodge. And does UI use god ki or regular ki? Never estbalished and what is that aura around it? It looks so pretty but the value of it decreases because it has no implicative meaning for its existence because Jiren can somehow produce the same aura.

This is why I don't think UI is that good of a form, hopefully the manga can explain things better though I doubt.

You and I don't agree on much, but THIS is definitely something I wholeheartedly agree with. UI as a powerup makes absolutely no sense, especially to the degree that was shown in the anime. I could see if it just added that extra layer of defense and instinct that his fighting style lacked overall, with the power boost itself just being a product of a zenkai, but as a straight up super saiyan-like transformation is where it just gets convoluted. Furthermore, it just increases the already over-inflated powerscale. There are already people having issues, understandably, with Broly being as strong as he's being hinted at because of the ToP.

It's you!? Are you thee Reece howard from the youtube community!!?


Well, if it is you then welcome aboard.
- It'll be exciting debating you about various dragon ball topics again, Reece.


Anyway...

I agree with everything EXCEPT zenaki boost, at this point zenkai are largely irrrelavent so they should't play a factor. I don't really have an unique idea of how to introduce UI. It's not a sayain form so it can be a simple ower-up in the anime...I really hope toyotaro can make sense of this form.

[Jesus-is Lord]

Why do you always complain about the manga before anything happens. It reeks of bias. Kefla vs Gohan is apparently bad according to you, which is weird because it hasn't happened yet. You also say that Ultra Instinct in the manga will be bad, but it hasn't appeared yet. You won't like the new chapters of the manga because you already have it in your head that they will be bad.

Have you ever heard of the phrase "attack the argument not the person"? My comments about Kefla vs Gohan that I since have apologized for and admitting that they are premature, are completely and totally irrelevant.

The struggle of Goku learning how to auto-dodge through breaking his limits, then struggling to gain to learn the other side of Ultra Instinct is something that makes it ultimately more gratifying. Without UI Omen, it is obviously going to feel like Goku didn't work for it and that he didn't earn it. Won't be as gratifying/rewarding that way. I probably won't like the new chapters because the ones they are building on have been offensively bad.

He didn't "struggle" for anything. He had no idea of using UI, then he "broke his limits" to survive a near death expirence and somehow he poofed UI omen out of his behind. Nothing gratifying about that.
2nd, he didn't "learn". He just natrually and instinctivly grew stronger in omen until he busted out MUI. There wasn't any struggle or end goal for goku - the plot was just guiding him haha. Since goku in the anime has the power of OMEGA PLOT ARMOR.
The form came out of no where and he had no idea how it even happened. The show said it itself. lol. There was nothing gratifying about goku in the anime since he kept getting these abratrairy zenakis out of no where, stamnia and health re-gain of that like Wolverine, and major plot armor since Jiren eliminated Hit but looked at goku and left him there like an moron. Nothing, to me, felt good or satisfying about goku in the ToP. Just bad writing and plot armor carried him.

Now I don't know how the manga will do things since we still have half of the tournament left (in time).
And offensively bad? Maybe to you, not to me and a lot of people. I like the chapters for this manga ToP.

[Miracles]

You and I don't agree on much, but THIS is definitely something I wholeheartedly agree with. UI as a powerup makes absolutely no sense, especially to the degree that was shown in the anime. I could see if it just added that extra layer of defense and instinct that his fighting style lacked overall, with the power boost itself just being a product of a zenkai, but as a straight up super saiyan-like transformation is where it just gets convoluted. Furthermore, it just increases the already over-inflated powerscale. There are already people having issues, understandably, with Broly being as strong as he's being hinted at because of the ToP.

UI as a stronger form does make sense tho, the three times Goku became incomplete UI, he had to break his current strength limit to achieve the complete UI.
We find out that UI is not just a state but also a state of mind [Ep 129]. The thing that didn't make sense is how resisting a ton of energy makes one stronger? This isn't DB continuity.

[TKA]

How the form performed in battle has nothing to do with the fact that SSJ3 had zero foreshadowing or build-up. Hence why I brought it up in the discussion in the first place.

To ignore how it performed is to ignore its dramatic purpose. To do that makes the comparison to what the Super anime has done flawed and so bereft of anything significant that you might not have made the comparison at all. It's just trivia at that point.

[prince212]

They actually did hint Migatte no Goku'i at the start of the Survival arc when Goku dodged Bulma like he was in trance.

anybody knows the anime episode that happen ? Sounds like a gag though, I’d like to watch it .
Now manga talking .. when we saw Beerus performing ultra instinct he didn’t have any aura or physical change , it seemed a technique rather than a transformation.. but looks like goku u.i also change your appearance so ...I.d.k

[batistabus]

Migatte no Gokui is all about optimization. When you're at a point where your physical movements are limited by the amount of time it takes you to translate a thought into an action, the only way you can improve is to act without that extra step. Because Saiyans increase their level of strength through transformation, in order to have access to that level of power in addition to the optimization, Goku "transforms" (white hair) when utilizing the form.

In other words, MnG is one's/Goku's maximum sustainable power and optimal battle sense rolled into one. It is the ultimate achievement in martial arts, and it is a reflex that can only be drawn out through making fighting second nature and being pushed to one's limits. It has been foreshadowed heavily in the manga this arc, and has been teased since Resurrection F. I think it's one of the most interesting concepts in Super.

[Jesus-is Lord]

They actually did hint Migatte no Goku'i at the start of the Survival arc when Goku dodged Bulma like he was in trance.

anybody knows the anime episode that happen ? Sounds like a gag though, I’d like to watch it .
Now manga talking .. when we saw Beerus performing ultra instinct he didn’t have any aura or physical change , it seemed a technique rather than a transformation.. but looks like goku u.i also change your appearance so ...I.d.k

It was a gag episode 71, when Goku was on high alert since he indirectly hired Hit to assinate him. He dodged everything he could, it had nothing to do with UI like this centra person claims.
2ND POINT, exactly so I wonder how toyotaro is going to do this. If we assume he starts the broly arc in december, toyotaro has 39,40,41,42 to rap this arc up. 42 being the ending. 40-41 are going to be the big battles. 42 will be conclusion. 39 Will be to eliminate the irrelvant characters - mainly gok....Who am I kidding. Predicting things to happen in the manga are an complete waist of time since toyotaro is pretty unpredictable with how he takes chapter WHICH IS WHY I LOVE THE MANGA!

[Saiga]

Migatte no Gokui is all about optimization. When you're at a point where your physical movements are limited by the amount of time it takes you to translate a thought into an action, the only way you can improve is to act without that extra step. Because Saiyans increase their level of strength through transformation, in order to have access to that level of power in addition to the optimization, Goku "transforms" (white hair) when utilizing the form.

In other words, MnG is one's/Goku's maximum sustainable power and optimal battle sense rolled into one. It is the ultimate achievement in martial arts, and it is a reflex that can only be drawn out through making fighting second nature and being pushed to one's limits. It has been foreshadowed heavily in the manga this arc, and has been teased since Resurrection F. I think it's one of the most interesting concepts in Super.

It still leaves a lot of questions unanswered though.

I like the idea as presented by RF - as a technique that was semi-plausible (the part about nerve signals was silly as those are actually really slow compared to our heroes but whatevs), giving Goku/Vegeta a new area to improve in over time (as Beerus showed partial mastery was a thing) and a way to get better that didn't require a new transformation.

But the UI Omen and 'full' UI forms don't feel very similar to that. After arcs of seeing Goku make no progress toward that skill, he breaks out a new transformation that has it attached by being pushed in a fight, and while it originally has the issue of not being 'complete', Goku just keeps getting pushed into the form until he completes it. And then it has crippling drawback that takes it off the table for the time being.

And we never learn why it is a transformation for Goku, when it just appears to be a skill for everyone else. We have no idea what that form is, because it's not sufficient to say it's ultra instinct when it works differently to how that technique is portrayed. It's functionally just another power-up to match a really strong guy blow for blow, which is a disappointing use of the concept.

Your explanation for why Goku transforms would potentially work, but it hadn't been offered by the series and doesn't match everything we'd been given. If transforming were a byproduct of Goku learning to use UI, that'd be a neat idea, but from what we've been shown Goku's transformation just gives him UI as a property of the form.

Ideally, Goku and Vegeta would actually learn how to use UI bit by bit (like Beerus has been) rather than Goku going from 0 to 100% (or 0 to 50 to 100% with Omen involved) in a single arc. A rudimentary UI could have assisted Goku in dealing with Hit's abilities, or the Black arc battles. Give it a presence in the earlier arcs and have the transformation be the climac of its ongoing development, not a sudden revival and breakthrough of the concept.

[Jesus-is Lord]

Migatte no Gokui is all about optimization. When you're at a point where your physical movements are limited by the amount of time it takes you to translate a thought into an action, the only way you can improve is to act without that extra step. Because Saiyans increase their level of strength through transformation, in order to have access to that level of power in addition to the optimization, Goku "transforms" (white hair) when utilizing the form.

In other words, MnG is one's/Goku's maximum sustainable power and optimal battle sense rolled into one. It is the ultimate achievement in martial arts, and it is a reflex that can only be drawn out through making fighting second nature and being pushed to one's limits. It has been foreshadowed heavily in the manga this arc, and has been teased since Resurrection F. I think it's one of the most interesting concepts in Super.

It still leaves a lot of questions unanswered though.

I like the idea as presented by RF - as a technique that was semi-plausible (the part about nerve signals was silly as those are actually really slow compared to our heroes but whatevs), giving Goku/Vegeta a new area to improve in over time (as Beerus showed partial mastery was a thing) and a way to get better that didn't require a new transformation.

But the UI Omen and 'full' UI forms don't feel very similar to that. After arcs of seeing Goku make no progress toward that skill, he breaks out a new transformation that has it attached by being pushed in a fight, and while it originally has the issue of not being 'complete', Goku just keeps getting pushed into the form until he completes it. And then it has crippling drawback that takes it off the table for the time being.

And we never learn why it is a transformation for Goku, when it just appears to be a skill for everyone else. We have no idea what that form is, because it's not sufficient to say it's ultra instinct when it works differently to how that technique is portrayed. It's functionally just another power-up to match a really strong guy blow for blow, which is a disappointing use of the concept.

Your explanation for why Goku transforms would potentially work, but it hadn't been offered by the series and doesn't match everything we'd been given. If transforming were a byproduct of Goku learning to use UI, that'd be a neat idea, but from what we've been shown Goku's transformation just gives him UI as a property of the form.

Ideally, Goku and Vegeta would actually learn how to use UI bit by bit (like Beerus has been) rather than Goku going from 0 to 100% (or 0 to 50 to 100% with Omen involved) in a single arc. A rudimentary UI could have assisted Goku in dealing with Hit's abilities, or the Black arc battles. Give it a presence in the earlier arcs and have the transformation be the climac of its ongoing development, not a sudden revival and breakthrough of the concept.

Yeah, I agree. And read chapter 27 berrus vs vegeta, Remeber whis told vegeta that he still "can tell he uses thought instead of instinctively move" which shows how it's a process vegeta and goku are learning, but are aware of. In the anime, we got none of this build-up. Things just happen and poof UI. Though the manga has it worse because we can infer all we want about whis portrayed UI, UI was never shown in the anime. However, UI was shown with berrus and berrus never got any power-up or change in appearence, so why is goku going to look differnt in this UI form? That's what I'll be looking in toyotaro for these next few months, though toyotaro usually does well in the writing department for me in so he puts information that I can defend -this UI thing, man. I feel it's going to be the same thing as the anime, all flash but little logic, sense and primarily substance. I hope toyotaro proves me wrong but I doubt.

[prince212]

They actually did hint Migatte no Goku'i at the start of the Survival arc when Goku dodged Bulma like he was in trance.

anybody knows the anime episode that happen ? Sounds like a gag though, I’d like to watch it .
Now manga talking .. when we saw Beerus performing ultra instinct he didn’t have any aura or physical change , it seemed a technique rather than a transformation.. but looks like goku u.i also change your appearance so ...I.d.k

It was a gag episode 71, when Goku was on high alert since he indirectly hired Hit to assinate him. He dodged everything he could, it had nothing to do with UI like this centra person claims.
2ND POINT, exactly so I wonder how toyotaro is going to do this. If we assume he starts the broly arc in december, toyotaro has 39,40,41,42 to rap this arc up. 42 being the ending. 40-41 are going to be the big battles. 42 will be conclusion. 39 Will be to eliminate the irrelvant characters - mainly gok....Who am I kidding. Predicting things to happen in the manga are an complete waist of time since toyotaro is pretty unpredictable with how he takes chapter WHICH IS WHY I LOVE THE MANGA!

Ahhhh Now I remember, thank you , i agree that was a gag
And yeap , next 4-5 chapters are gonna be totally unpredictable ( I hope so ) , we can’t even assume that vegeta-toppo fight will be as we saw in the anime , considering that most of the eliminations had been different ( except hit-Jiren) .

[Marlowe89]

Ultra Instinct's build up in the manga easily outstrips the anime. It's seriously not even a contest.

It's not just about foreshadowing, it's about character motivation. It's about establishing a logical progression of events with Vegeta learning that it's the key to overcoming characters like Beerus, Goku seeing the same technique in action during the Zen Exhibition, and both concluding that they have to overcome that wall. It's about having those goals interplay with the personalities of the protagonists and influencing the plot, like with Goku selfishly deciding to forego his team-up with Hit to focus on reaching this mysterious milestone. It's NOT about withholding those aspirations until after the form comes out of bumfuck nowhere because "hurrrrr he absorbed da spirit bomb".

I give considerably much less of a shit about Goku slowly learning to master Ultra Instinct's mechanics as I do his character development towards obtaining it in the first place, which is exactly what the manga prioritizes.

[prince212]

. However, UI was shown with berrus and berrus never got any power-up or change in appearence, so why is goku going to look differnt in this UI form? That's what I'll be looking in toyotaro for these next few months, though toyotaro usually does well in the writing department for me in so he puts information that I can defend -this UI thing, man. I feel it's going to be the same thing as the anime, all flash but little logic, sense and primarily substance. I hope toyotaro proves me wrong but I doubt.

I doubt that too , ui change of appearance is already done with figurines and merchandise, so that’s a heavy stone that toyotaro can’t move .. his only salvation point should be a decent explanation.. could be that Beerus didn’t master it and no omen is here , who knows