"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Jesus-is Lord]

As hardcore fans, we want to know the in-universe explanation for everything, but from a story-telling perspective, it's not so straightforward.

and it's not Toriyama's style to explain things unnecessarily.

I don't think it's unnecessary to explain the biggest plot element you've introduced in the story thus far.

Toriyama told us exactly what Kaioken was (and thus why it's dangerous), what Super Saiyan was (and thus how it can be developed), what SS2 was (and thus what comes after it), what SS3 was, how fusion worked, why Potara is different etc.

These are major plot elements, man. You can't just leave them unexplained or unaccounted for because that raises serious tension issues going forward.

I'm not saying MnG shouldn't be explained. The reason for Goku's hair being white is something that doesn't relate to the purpose of the ability nor the method of attaining it. It may be atypical of someone who has mastery over the ability, but everyone is still able to clearly recognize it for what it is...so what does it matter? To me, it's about as important as asking "If Super Saiyan 3 increases the length of Goku's hair, why do his eyebrows go away?"

In the manga, we know:
-it allows you to move without thinking, optimizing yourself as a fighter
-it is difficult even for gods to achieve
-it can be imperfectly utilized (as seen in the GoD Battle Royale)
-it requires a combination of physical training and the right state of mind

Will all of that connect in a satisfying way with Goku in the manga? We'll see. That I do care about, not why his hair turns white.

I 100% agree with that premise. His hair is white, big deal? It's a character design. But don't you have problems with how UI and omen were excuted in the anime? Like lack of foreshadowing, why UI is a power-up (when it was shown to only be technique), how do you get UI like goku did and why was he the only one who did achieve it? Or what is the mystical aura around UI when UI is only supposed to be a technique and why does Jiren get this mystical aura as well? Don't you have problems such as those?

[batistabus]

I 100% agree with that premise. His hair is white, big deal? It's a character design. But don't you have problems with how UI and omen were excuted in the anime? Like lack of foreshadowing, why UI is a power-up (when it was shown to only be technique), how do you get UI like goku did and why was he the only one who did achieve it? Or what is the mystical aura around UI when UI is only supposed to be a technique and why does Jiren get this mystical aura as well? Don't you have problems such as those?

Despite the risk of seeming "biased against the anime", I think the DBS anime, while still somewhat enjoyable to a fanatic like myself, is a disappointing product that fell short on almost every level of production and storytelling. This includes the implementation of Migatte no Gokui. I hope that the manga does a better job, and based on everything we've seen so far, I'm confident that it will. In fact, it already has. If it doesn't, I will admit it.

I have no problem with MnG serving as a "power-up". While it is most notable for dodging, it's really about fighting without thinking. This would intuitively benefit a fighter offensively in addition to defensively. The problem that Whis mentions in the anime regarding MnG Omen has to do with Goku focusing on defense without the offense to match.

If you want to get down to the details, offensive benefits include:

-increased speed (no need to think)
-the ability to more effectively target openings and weak spots
-an improved counter-attack
-optimized ki manipulation and expenditure

[prince212]

Well regarding u.i future appearance in the manga , I’m curious about how toyo is gonna draw the dodging movements that were so good in the anime ( the best thing i.m.o ) , about the build up , he’s in a nice route and I hope he’ll figure it out something better that “ eat your own Genki dama “ that was nonsense . Also he’s doing so good about the stamina thing and for now we are not having resurrections , anime abuse of those too much , at some point I was expecting an explanation like the air in that world of void contains something like senzu beans .
And .. just by saying all this doesn’t mean I hate the anime, It could be better and that’s why lot of users are talking about the differences , expecting the mistakes or nonsenses to be fixed in a good way . Toyotaro already fixed a bunch , so we hope the same for this tournament anime issues . So far is looking better his t.o.p arc , especially the pre-tournament

[Jesus-is Lord]

I 100% agree with that premise. His hair is white, big deal? It's a character design. But don't you have problems with how UI and omen were excuted in the anime? Like lack of foreshadowing, why UI is a power-up (when it was shown to only be technique), how do you get UI like goku did and why was he the only one who did achieve it? Or what is the mystical aura around UI when UI is only supposed to be a technique and why does Jiren get this mystical aura as well? Don't you have problems such as those?

Despite the risk of seeming "biased against the anime", I think the DBS anime, while still somewhat enjoyable to a fanatic like myself, is a disappointing product that fell short on almost every level of production and storytelling. This includes the implementation of Migatte no Gokui. I hope that the manga does a better job, and based on everything we've seen so far, I'm confident that it will. In fact, it already has. If it doesn't, I will admit it.

I have no problem with MnG serving as a "power-up". While it is most notable for dodging, it's really about fighting without thinking. This would intuitively benefit a fighter offensively in addition to defensively. The problem that Whis mentions in the anime regarding MnG Omen has to do with Goku focusing on defense without the offense to match.

If you want to get down to the details, offensive benefits include:

-increased speed (no need to think)
-the ability to more effectively target openings and weak spots
-an improved counter-attack
-optimized ki manipulation and expenditure

Yeah, and it would have been interesting to see an "offensive version" of UI. What do you think that would have looked like? maybe have offensive UI be totally White, and have defensive be totally black then have UI be that grey shading we have now. But yeah offensivly has some advantages over defensive which you pointed it out.

[Jesus-is Lord]

Well regarding u.i future appearance in the manga , I’m curious about how toyo is gonna draw the dodging movements that were so good in the anime ( the best thing i.m.o ) , about the build up , he’s in a nice route and I hope he’ll figure it out something better that “ eat your own Genki dama “ that was nonsense . Also he’s doing so good about the stamina thing and for now we are not having resurrections , anime abuse of those too much , at some point I was expecting an explanation like the air in that world of void contains something like senzu beans .
And .. just by saying all this doesn’t mean I hate the anime, It could be better and that’s why lot of users are talking about the differences , expecting the mistakes or nonsenses to be fixed in a good way . Toyotaro already fixed a bunch , so we hope the same for this tournament anime issues . So far is looking better his t.o.p arc , especially the pre-tournament

I know, toyotaro has his hands full with this one. I hope akira helps him with the story board and art so we can have an fantastic finish in the manga. And I wonder what UI goku will look like in the manga, will it look like normal goku with white hair and a ssg god build? or will he make he make it like a fusion of ssj2, base goku with a ssj god build. Because in some of his art, UI hair style looks like ssj2 and base combined.

[emperior]

Are you guys really sure that Goku will suddenly try to use Ultra Instinct and achieve it with success in the manga?
Because I fully expect him to achieve it the same way he did in the anime, by getting engulfed into his own Genkidama, resist it and use its energy as fuel to fight. Although I think Toyotaro will keep this part for last and in his version Goku will immediately attain the silver-haired mastered version instead of the Omen.
Honestly, I will be happy if UI is achieved the same way as in the anime but I wouldn’t mind seeing what Toyo’s take is if he decides to go another route.

Goku using a spirit bomb for it to fail and then get UI omen (not even Akiras form) was just nostalgia copying of the Frieza arc. Plus why would toyotaro copy build-up from toei to a form that's not even Toriyamas creation? When has toyotaro been a guy to copy toei? I doubt it's happening. Toyotaro barley ever copied toei, why would he do it, now?

Do you have Toriyama’s outline? We don’t know whether he wrote it or not, but I think he did considering it’s a new important form we are talking about, and I seriously doubt he had no hand about how Goku achieves the form.
What I was suggesting (and I think it was pretty clear if you actually read my post) is that Toyotaro may skip the Omen part and have Goku achieve the mastered form after the Genkidama, which means that Toei, with Toriyama’s approval, took the liberty of building up the form by having Goku achieve an incomplete version (Omen) first. That was very smart of Toei, or whoever decided to have Omen, and it improved the story tremendously, yet people here act like Toyotaro is some sort of writing God with Toei’s writers being mediocre... talk about bias. It’s even more ridiculous that some posters here haven’t even bothered to watch the entire anime yet they critic its ToP rendition. Absurd.
I also don’t see where they copied Namek arc in UI’s debut... I don’t remember Goku being hit by his own Genkidama back in Namek.

I just can’t wait to see you all praising Toyotaro when he will write Goku attaining UI exactly like in the anime. But I expect the manga force to be like “Oh Toyotaro handled it much better, wow!”. Or maybe Toyotaro will do his own thing, worse than the anime, and you will all praise him as you always do. The guy doesn’t even follow Toriyama that much considering he decided to skip on the tingle back thing for transforming into a Super Saiyan.

[mute_proxy]

I know, toyotaro has his hands full with this one. I hope akira helps him with the story board and art so we can have an fantastic finish in the manga. And I wonder what UI goku will look like in the manga, will it look like normal goku with white hair and a ssg god build? or will he make he make it like a fusion of ssj2, base goku with a ssj god build. Because in some of his art, UI hair style looks like ssj2 and base combined.

It doesnt look like SS2, it's the anime version with energy/air moving his hair up, notice the particles/shirt pieces around him

[Bergamo]

Are you guys really sure that Goku will suddenly try to use Ultra Instinct and achieve it with success in the manga?
Because I fully expect him to achieve it the same way he did in the anime, by getting engulfed into his own Genkidama, resist it and use its energy as fuel to fight. Although I think Toyotaro will keep this part for last and in his version Goku will immediately attain the silver-haired mastered version instead of the Omen.
Honestly, I will be happy if UI is achieved the same way as in the anime but I wouldn’t mind seeing what Toyo’s take is if he decides to go another route.

Goku using a spirit bomb for it to fail and then get UI omen (not even Akiras form) was just nostalgia copying of the Frieza arc. Plus why would toyotaro copy build-up from toei to a form that's not even Toriyamas creation? When has toyotaro been a guy to copy toei? I doubt it's happening. Toyotaro barley ever copied toei, why would he do it, now?

Do you have Toriyama’s outline? We don’t know whether he wrote it or not, but I think he did considering it’s a new important form we are talking about, and I seriously doubt he had no hand about how Goku achieves the form.
What I was suggesting (and I think it was pretty clear if you actually read my post) is that Toyotaro may skip the Omen part and have Goku achieve the mastered form after the Genkidama, which means that Toei, with Toriyama’s approval, took the liberty of building up the form by having Goku achieve an incomplete version (Omen) first. That was very smart of Toei, or whoever decided to have Omen, and it improved the story tremendously, yet people here act like Toyotaro is some sort of writing God with Toei’s writers being mediocre... talk about bias. It’s even more ridiculous that some posters here haven’t even bothered to watch the entire anime yet they critic its ToP rendition. Absurd.
I also don’t see where they copied Namek arc in UI’s debut... I don’t remember Goku being hit by his own Genkidama back in Namek.

I just can’t wait to see you all praising Toyotaro when he will write Goku attaining UI exactly like in the anime. But I expect the manga force to be like “Oh Toyotaro handled it much better, wow!”. Or maybe Toyotaro will do his own thing, worse than the anime, and you will all praise him as you always do. The guy doesn’t even follow Toriyama that much considering he decided to skip on the tingle back thing for transforming into a Super Saiyan.

So if Toyotaro does the spirit bomb and we like it then we're biased, and if Toyotaro doesn't do the spirit bomb and we like it then we're biased.

Also, the anime made Merged Zamas much stronger than he was originally intended to be and removed the portara time limit from him yet Toyotaro is bad for not including a line about a tingly back. Ok.

[emperior]

Goku using a spirit bomb for it to fail and then get UI omen (not even Akiras form) was just nostalgia copying of the Frieza arc. Plus why would toyotaro copy build-up from toei to a form that's not even Toriyamas creation? When has toyotaro been a guy to copy toei? I doubt it's happening. Toyotaro barley ever copied toei, why would he do it, now?

Do you have Toriyama’s outline? We don’t know whether he wrote it or not, but I think he did considering it’s a new important form we are talking about, and I seriously doubt he had no hand about how Goku achieves the form.
What I was suggesting (and I think it was pretty clear if you actually read my post) is that Toyotaro may skip the Omen part and have Goku achieve the mastered form after the Genkidama, which means that Toei, with Toriyama’s approval, took the liberty of building up the form by having Goku achieve an incomplete version (Omen) first. That was very smart of Toei, or whoever decided to have Omen, and it improved the story tremendously, yet people here act like Toyotaro is some sort of writing God with Toei’s writers being mediocre... talk about bias. It’s even more ridiculous that some posters here haven’t even bothered to watch the entire anime yet they critic its ToP rendition. Absurd.
I also don’t see where they copied Namek arc in UI’s debut... I don’t remember Goku being hit by his own Genkidama back in Namek.

I just can’t wait to see you all praising Toyotaro when he will write Goku attaining UI exactly like in the anime. But I expect the manga force to be like “Oh Toyotaro handled it much better, wow!”. Or maybe Toyotaro will do his own thing, worse than the anime, and you will all praise him as you always do. The guy doesn’t even follow Toriyama that much considering he decided to skip on the tingle back thing for transforming into a Super Saiyan.

So if Toyotaro does the spirit bomb and we like it then we're biased, and if Toyotaro doesn't do the spirit bomb and we like it then we're biased.

Also, the anime made Merged Zamas much stronger than he was originally intended to be and removed the portara time limit from him yet Toyotaro is bad for not including a line about a tingly back. Ok.

Yes, you are biased towards the manga if you praise the same plot point about Goku attaining UI after surviving the explosion of his own Genkidama, which you criticised the anime for. And you will be biased if Goku casually pulls UI out of his ass and starts dodging Jiren just because he saw Beerus doing it once and you end up praising it.
I will be the first to give Toyotaro praise if he does something as creative as the anime, but I won’t shit on the anime while doing that.

[Jesus-is Lord]

Are you guys really sure that Goku will suddenly try to use Ultra Instinct and achieve it with success in the manga?
Because I fully expect him to achieve it the same way he did in the anime, by getting engulfed into his own Genkidama, resist it and use its energy as fuel to fight. Although I think Toyotaro will keep this part for last and in his version Goku will immediately attain the silver-haired mastered version instead of the Omen.
Honestly, I will be happy if UI is achieved the same way as in the anime but I wouldn’t mind seeing what Toyo’s take is if he decides to go another route.

Goku using a spirit bomb for it to fail and then get UI omen (not even Akiras form) was just nostalgia copying of the Frieza arc. Plus why would toyotaro copy build-up from toei to a form that's not even Toriyamas creation? When has toyotaro been a guy to copy toei? I doubt it's happening. Toyotaro barley ever copied toei, why would he do it, now?

Do you have Toriyama’s outline? We don’t know whether he wrote it or not, but I think he did considering it’s a new important form we are talking about, and I seriously doubt he had no hand about how Goku achieves the form.
What I was suggesting (and I think it was pretty clear if you actually read my post) is that Toyotaro may skip the Omen part and have Goku achieve the mastered form after the Genkidama, which means that Toei, with Toriyama’s approval, took the liberty of building up the form by having Goku achieve an incomplete version (Omen) first. That was very smart of Toei, or whoever decided to have Omen, and it improved the story tremendously, yet people here act like Toyotaro is some sort of writing God with Toei’s writers being mediocre... talk about bias. It’s even more ridiculous that some posters here haven’t even bothered to watch the entire anime yet they critic its ToP rendition. Absurd.
I also don’t see where they copied Namek arc in UI’s debut... I don’t remember Goku being hit by his own Genkidama back in Namek.

I just can’t wait to see you all praising Toyotaro when he will write Goku attaining UI exactly like in the anime. But I expect the manga force to be like “Oh Toyotaro handled it much better, wow!”. Or maybe Toyotaro will do his own thing, worse than the anime, and you will all praise him as you always do. The guy doesn’t even follow Toriyama that much considering he decided to skip on the tingle back thing for transforming into a Super Saiyan.

I doubt what toei did was in Akiras notes since it's obvious pandering to the Freeza saga - IMO, that's way to lazy for Akira to put in notes as mandated. I'm not sure if that one-hour special was approved by toriyama, though. I always thought toriyama focuses more on the manga and then the movies he does with toei. Though he obviously does like character design creations and personaility via a joint effort by toei and toyotaro. But apart from that, I'm not so sure he's really involved with where the anime connects the dot other then if they execute his plot points well. In the manga, we got more information in that Akira checks over toyotaro story board and is kind of his un-offcial supervisor. He does do the same with toei too, I guess. Idk... shrugs... . The db manga is the offcial continuation of Akiras manga while toei is the continuation of kai - plus according to toyotaro - it seems he's more faithful in sticking to akiras plot-outline then toei and it's never been stated akira checks through ALL of toei's story boarding. I just really don't know. Maybe omen was approved by toriyama, maybe it happened without his approval. Not enough information.

Again, all of that is IF spirit bomb is in the manga which I really doubt. And even then, not having the addtion of OMEN would not make me agree with you that UI was handled better in the anime. The manga, to me, has far better build-up to UI then the anime does. With chapter 27, 28 and a little of 35 being the big catalyst. In the anime, goku pulled omen literally out of his behind. There was no narrative build-up nor in-universe build-up. It just randomly happened and people then digged out a little excerpt from whis like 80+ episodes ago . Don't get me wrong, Omen is a visually great form and better then UI - but not having it in the manga probaly won't effect me to much since toyotaro is already doing a far better job of hyping building the form up. Now, if you're talking about just build-up to MUI in general... now it's more competive. Since the manga has to compete with the build-up omen brought. Though IMO I found the concept of UI omen so poorly explained and executed that when goku achieved MUI i didn't really care much because the writing of the show was so...fan-service heavy and lacked any substance to me. So unless the manga bombs this, the manga version of events will porbably be better then the anime to me.

Toyotaro is a good writer to me, while modern toei seems focused more on the cash then the story.

Well, these "posters" who haven't watched all episodes from the ToP make good arguments because I myself have watched ALL 131 episodes and I don't deviate that much from their issues with the anime. To me, the anime of super is the worst offcial continuity of dragon ball and it's not even close. But that's just my objective opinion.
It has a few cool moments, and some REALLY good ost but other then that....it's a Bad show according to my standards of what dragon ball should be.

It mirrors frieza arc with this:
Goku fights Jiren - Goku fights frieza at 50%
Goku gets stomped by jiren - Goku gets stomped by Freeza
goku makes a spirt bomb - goku makes a spirt bomb
goku fails - goku fails
Goku unlocks a new form - Goku un locks a new form
It's not an copy, but the special itself was heavy nostalgia call back to that plot point of the Freeza arc.
You could argue that goku facing the pride troopers before was like goku facing the ginyu force too, but that's stretching it.

Well, I doubt you'll see that happen since A. toyotaro has already builded up the form far better then toei has, and B. There's a small chance UI will come in the exact same fashion it did in the anime. Surviving a spirit bomb. lol. So, hopefully, we will be cheering toyotaro for executing well by his own interprtations. I really hope akira helps him (or has helped him) in crafting this chapter.

P.S how does surviving a spirt bomb blast make you learn how to dodge instinctly? sighs...toei.

[Jesus-is Lord]

I know, toyotaro has his hands full with this one. I hope akira helps him with the story board and art so we can have an fantastic finish in the manga. And I wonder what UI goku will look like in the manga, will it look like normal goku with white hair and a ssg god build? or will he make he make it like a fusion of ssj2, base goku with a ssj god build. Because in some of his art, UI hair style looks like ssj2 and base combined.

It doesnt look like SS2, it's the anime version with energy/air moving his hair up, notice the particles/shirt pieces around him

Maybe.

[emperior]

I doubt what toei did was in Akiras notes since it's obvious pandering to the Freeza saga - IMO, that's way to lazy for Akira to put in notes as mandated. I'm not sure if that one-hour special was approved by toriyama, though. I always thought toriyama focuses more on the manga and then the movies he does with toei. Though he obviously does like character design creations and personaility via a joint effort by toei and toyotaro. But apart from that, I'm not so sure he's really involved with where the anime connects the dot other then if they execute his plot points well. In the manga, we got more information in that Akira checks over toyotaro story board and is kind of his un-offcial supervisor. He does do the same with toei too, I guess. Idk... shrugs... . The db manga is the offcial continuation of Akiras manga while toei is the continuation of kai - plus according to toyotaro - it seems he's more faithful in sticking to akiras plot-outline then toei and it's never been stated akira checks through ALL of toei's story boarding. I just really don't know. Maybe omen was approved by toriyama, maybe it happened without his approval. Not enough information.

Only the Kaioken and the fact Goku decided to fire off a Genkidama were a callback to Freeza, and a short one too. And Toriyama is notoriously lazy so it could have very well been his idea to play the battle similar to how it played on Namek.
Nothing happened without Toriyama's approval, that's for sure. He was involved with the anime production, he checked the scripts and the storyboards and gave suggestions. In fact the tingle back method to achieve Super Saiyan was his idea, yet Toyotaro didn't use it.
The anime Super is the continuation of the original manga, not of Kai. Sure, it's also a continuation of Kai in that Kai tried to be a cut version of Z to follow the manga, although they weren't able to cut all the filler.
It was never stated that Toyotaro's manga is the official continuation. In fact all evidence points towards the anime being it, and it's surely the main one.

Again, all of that is IF spirit bomb is in the manga which I really doubt. And even then, not having the addtion of OMEN would not make me agree with you that UI was handled better in the anime. The manga, to me, has far better build-up to UI then the anime does. With chapter 27, 28 and a little of 35 being the big catalyst. In the anime, goku pulled omen literally out of his behind. There was no narrative build-up nor in-universe build-up. It just randomly happened and people then digged out a little excerpt from whis like 80+ episodes ago . Don't get me wrong, Omen is a visually great form and better then UI - but not having it in the manga probaly won't effect me to much since toyotaro is already doing a far better job of hyping building the form up. Now, if you're talking about just build-up to MUI in general... now it's more competive. Since the manga has to compete with the build-up omen brought. Though IMO I found the concept of UI omen so poorly explained and executed that when goku achieved MUI i didn't really care much because the writing of the show was so...fan-service heavy and lacked any substance to me. So unless the manga bombs this, the manga version of events will porbably be better then the anime to me.

Toyotaro is a good writer to me, while modern toei seems focused more on the cash then the story.

Well, these "posters" who haven't watched all episodes from the ToP make good arguments because I myself have watched ALL 131 episodes and I don't deviate that much from their issues with the anime. To me, the anime of super is the worst offcial continuity of dragon ball and it's not even close. But that's just my objective opinion.
It has a few cool moments, and some REALLY good ost but other then that....it's a Bad show according to my standards of what dragon ball should be.

It mirrors frieza arc with this:
Goku fights Jiren - Goku fights frieza at 50%
Goku gets stomped by jiren - Goku gets stomped by Freeza
goku makes a spirt bomb - goku makes a spirt bomb
goku fails - goku fails
Goku unlocks a new form - Goku un locks a new form
It's not an copy, but the special itself was heavy nostalgia call back to that plot point of the Freeza arc.
You could argue that goku facing the pride troopers before was like goku facing the ginyu force too, but that's stretching it.

Well, I doubt you'll see that happen since A. toyotaro has already builded up the form far better then toei has, and B. There's a small chance UI will come in the exact same fashion it did in the anime. Surviving a spirit bomb. lol. So, hopefully, we will be cheering toyotaro for executing well by his own interprtations. I really hope akira helps him (or has helped him) in crafting this chapter.

P.S how does surviving a spirt bomb blast make you learn how to dodge instinctly? sighs...toei.

Not every transformation needs to be built up. And Toyotaro's build up is nothing extaordinary, he just repeated what was said in RoF, which he skipped, and showed Beerus using an incomplete version of UI. That's all. And it's quite in our faces. I prefer the anime not going the obvious way, with UI happening on sheer luck on Goku's part. I loved that by surviving the Genkidama Goku was able to break his inner barriers, his mental and physical limits, and achieved a state not even Gods can easily achieve. The way Ultra Instinct was presented was just perfectly written in my opinion. It can make sense for Goku to randomly break his limits by surviving a giant explosion in a Tournament with very high stakes, and it makes sense that those limits he broke were holding down his true potential, which is to have his body move and act on its own.
I really don't see any other way for Goku to achieve such a godly state in a short time other than what the anime team has done. He was also in a semi-comatose state with the Genkidama fueling his tired and energy-less body.
The casualty of Goku achieving Ultra Instinct is something I like. In my book, that was a creative way to introduce a new power-up and to justify Goku achieving it just now and never before.

[Aizamasu]

In fact the tingle back method to achieve Super Saiyan was his idea, yet Toyotaro didn't use it.

Where was this stated?

[SSJgogeto]

The director of the next movie said that in a recent interview.

[MoscoSama]

Toriyama corrected art for Caulifla in chapter 32 which means he didn’t care enough about back tingles to get Toyo to add it despite him “supposedly mentioning it”

[Marlowe89]

I just can’t wait to see you all praising Toyotaro when he will write Goku attaining UI exactly like in the anime. But I expect the manga force to be like “Oh Toyotaro handled it much better, wow!”. Or maybe Toyotaro will do his own thing, worse than the anime, and you will all praise him as you always do.

Stop.

I want you to read back over this quote as carefully as you can and observe the stark difference between your approach and the arguments presented by the big bad "Toyotaro force" (whatever the fuck that means) in this thread. Notice how we're not saying anything about the anime's fanbase just because we're comparing that medium unfavorably to the manga. Notice how you're constantly attacking strawmen by presuming how we'll react to a chapter that isn't even released.

This isn't what a conducive discussion looks like. This is reducing any semblance of a discussion to some bullshit "us vs. them" mentality, prohibiting any attempt at meaningful dialogue because you're turning it into an insufferable fan competition. You'll have to forgive me if I think it's seeeeriously rich that you're trying to play the bias card against every poster here who has expressed a preference for the manga's brand of storytelling because you don't like how we're comparing them.

Do better next time.

The guy doesn’t even follow Toriyama that much considering he decided to skip on the tingle back thing for transforming into a Super Saiyan.

"Toei doesn't even follow Toriyama that much considering they decided to skip on Super Saiyan Goku Black, despite it being Toriyama's idea."

These blanket conclusions have got to go, dude.

No, it doesn't remotely help your argument that Toriyama is more involved with the anime. The first time this was known to happen was from the exact opposite scenario.

[shadowfox87]

People should stop counting chickens before they are hatched. I'm a manga supporter but I wouldn't say half the things that some people are saying here. Toyotaro may show UI the same way as in the anime, so don't assume he won't. The Spirit Bomb in the anime was only a trigger to force Goku to break out of his shell and become subconscious. UI is not something that can happen voluntarily easily unless you're like Whis. Hence, Goku needed to be pushed to his limits, backed to a corner, etc.

Until the chapter is out, please don't assume what Toyotaro will or will not do. It just makes us manga fans look bad.

[MoscoSama]

People should stop counting chickens before they are hatched. I'm a manga supporter but I wouldn't say half the things that some people are saying here. Toyotaro may show UI the same way as in the anime, so don't assume he won't. The Spirit Bomb in the anime was only a trigger to force Goku to break out of his shell and become subconscious. UI is not something that can happen voluntarily easily unless you're like Whis. Hence, Goku needed to be pushed to his limits, backed to a corner, etc.

Until the chapter is out, please don't assume what Toyotaro will or will not do. It just makes us manga fans look bad.

An 8 person GENKI dama should be the size of Goku’s hand so I hope to god Toyotaro doesn’t use that method. Have him break his shell trying to fight off Jirens power impact or maybe some kind of emotional trigger but not the spirit bomb

[reecehoward]

Substandard argument.

Am I "biased against" Birdemic because it is a bad movie and I don't like it? Am I "biased against" Twilight because it is a bad book series and I don't like them? The anime is bad and I don't like it. That's the extent of my relationship with it.

Also, in what world is watching 103 episodes of a show not enough to form an "educated opinion" on it? That's fucking inane.

No, you're biased against the anime because you criticise everything about it (even what you didn't watch) and praise everything Toyotarou does. That, by default, shows your bias. It's even worse when you claim you don't like the anime yet you can't shut up about it in the manga thread. Everyone can talk about the manga without mentioning the anime and vice-versa. Except you, apparently. It shows how well the manga stands on its own, I guess.

I didn't told you to watch the whole anime, I told you to watch the Tournament of Power arc, which is what you need to talk about it and Migatte no Gokui in the first place.

I won't even dignify this with too much of a response.

Yeah, don't. We'll see what happens in the next chapters.

That is in stark contrast to Toei, who pushes every new form as the greatest thing since sliced bread and resolves all conflict with them. That's boring, especially when these things aren't built up, have no context and are never explained.

You really need to know what you're talking about and learn that opinions aren't facts, especially when they are contradicted by the actual story you didn't watch. But whatever, I feel I'm wasting my time. You're not interested in knowing the facts (or not presenting opinions as them) so there's no conversation possible here.

Continue bashing the anime, then, if that's what you feel is needed to make the manga relevant.

I say this very statement all of the time. I don't get why people can't discuss the manga without the need for dissing the anime. Furthermore, I've seen people give passes to the manga for the very things they hated the anime for. It's almost as if it's taboo to critique the manga as harshly as we critiqued the anime. Both are flawed products, yet they do have merits that make them somewhat enjoyable sequels.

[reecehoward]

Goku using a spirit bomb for it to fail and then get UI omen (not even Akiras form) was just nostalgia copying of the Frieza arc. Plus why would toyotaro copy build-up from toei to a form that's not even Toriyamas creation? When has toyotaro been a guy to copy toei? I doubt it's happening. Toyotaro barley ever copied toei, why would he do it, now?

Do you have Toriyama’s outline? We don’t know whether he wrote it or not, but I think he did considering it’s a new important form we are talking about, and I seriously doubt he had no hand about how Goku achieves the form.
What I was suggesting (and I think it was pretty clear if you actually read my post) is that Toyotaro may skip the Omen part and have Goku achieve the mastered form after the Genkidama, which means that Toei, with Toriyama’s approval, took the liberty of building up the form by having Goku achieve an incomplete version (Omen) first. That was very smart of Toei, or whoever decided to have Omen, and it improved the story tremendously, yet people here act like Toyotaro is some sort of writing God with Toei’s writers being mediocre... talk about bias. It’s even more ridiculous that some posters here haven’t even bothered to watch the entire anime yet they critic its ToP rendition. Absurd.
I also don’t see where they copied Namek arc in UI’s debut... I don’t remember Goku being hit by his own Genkidama back in Namek.

I just can’t wait to see you all praising Toyotaro when he will write Goku attaining UI exactly like in the anime. But I expect the manga force to be like “Oh Toyotaro handled it much better, wow!”. Or maybe Toyotaro will do his own thing, worse than the anime, and you will all praise him as you always do. The guy doesn’t even follow Toriyama that much considering he decided to skip on the tingle back thing for transforming into a Super Saiyan.

I doubt what toei did was in Akiras notes since it's obvious pandering to the Freeza saga - IMO, that's way to lazy for Akira to put in notes as mandated. I'm not sure if that one-hour special was approved by toriyama, though. I always thought toriyama focuses more on the manga and then the movies he does with toei. Though he obviously does like character design creations and personaility via a joint effort by toei and toyotaro. But apart from that, I'm not so sure he's really involved with where the anime connects the dot other then if they execute his plot points well. In the manga, we got more information in that Akira checks over toyotaro story board and is kind of his un-offcial supervisor. He does do the same with toei too, I guess. Idk... shrugs... . The db manga is the offcial continuation of Akiras manga while toei is the continuation of kai - plus according to toyotaro - it seems he's more faithful in sticking to akiras plot-outline then toei and it's never been stated akira checks through ALL of toei's story boarding. I just really don't know. Maybe omen was approved by toriyama, maybe it happened without his approval. Not enough information.

Again, all of that is IF spirit bomb is in the manga which I really doubt. And even then, not having the addtion of OMEN would not make me agree with you that UI was handled better in the anime. The manga, to me, has far better build-up to UI then the anime does. With chapter 27, 28 and a little of 35 being the big catalyst. In the anime, goku pulled omen literally out of his behind. There was no narrative build-up nor in-universe build-up. It just randomly happened and people then digged out a little excerpt from whis like 80+ episodes ago . Don't get me wrong, Omen is a visually great form and better then UI - but not having it in the manga probaly won't effect me to much since toyotaro is already doing a far better job of hyping building the form up. Now, if you're talking about just build-up to MUI in general... now it's more competive. Since the manga has to compete with the build-up omen brought. Though IMO I found the concept of UI omen so poorly explained and executed that when goku achieved MUI i didn't really care much because the writing of the show was so...fan-service heavy and lacked any substance to me. So unless the manga bombs this, the manga version of events will porbably be better then the anime to me.

Toyotaro is a good writer to me, while modern toei seems focused more on the cash then the story.

Well, these "posters" who haven't watched all episodes from the ToP make good arguments because I myself have watched ALL 131 episodes and I don't deviate that much from their issues with the anime. To me, the anime of super is the worst offcial continuity of dragon ball and it's not even close. But that's just my objective opinion.
It has a few cool moments, and some REALLY good ost but other then that....it's a Bad show according to my standards of what dragon ball should be.

It mirrors frieza arc with this:
Goku fights Jiren - Goku fights frieza at 50%
Goku gets stomped by jiren - Goku gets stomped by Freeza
goku makes a spirt bomb - goku makes a spirt bomb
goku fails - goku fails
Goku unlocks a new form - Goku un locks a new form
It's not an copy, but the special itself was heavy nostalgia call back to that plot point of the Freeza arc.
You could argue that goku facing the pride troopers before was like goku facing the ginyu force too, but that's stretching it.

Well, I doubt you'll see that happen since A. toyotaro has already builded up the form far better then toei has, and B. There's a small chance UI will come in the exact same fashion it did in the anime. Surviving a spirit bomb. lol. So, hopefully, we will be cheering toyotaro for executing well by his own interprtations. I really hope akira helps him (or has helped him) in crafting this chapter.

P.S how does surviving a spirt bomb blast make you learn how to dodge instinctly? sighs...toei.

I doubt that it shows up in the manga. Toyotaro doesn't really do the grandeur like the Toei staff. That was a bit too much, even for Dragonball.lol