"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Meshack]

I think this is going to be the manga's version of Gohan&Freeza vs Dyspo, with Kafla replacing Dyspo. So Gohan will sacrifice himself so Freeza can eliminate both Kafla and Gohan.

That's assuming Toriyama's notes were specific enough to include Freeza and Gohan teaming up.

I don't think Dyspo will be God-tier in the manga, he hasn't shown that level and Toppo has some kind of 'God aura' power up to reach that level.

Freeza helping gohan against kafla has a lot of sense ( his battle against those saiyan girls was unfinished ) ..
And 17-Roshi taking dyspo- kahseral could be a nice battle too ..
Too bad that vegeta - toppo and goku-Jiren seem to be fixed battles , but who knows ..

I would prefer if Gohan and Roshi went out fighting Kefla and then Frieza and 17 fought Dyspo and Kahseral. Why?

Kefla is a Demon Saiyan. Gohan is a Saiyan and Roshi has a demon sealing technique.

Kahseral is a cyborg. 17 is a cyborg.

Goku/Vegeta/Frieza vs Jiren/Toppo/Dyspo is basically perfect, so why change it.

Where was is it Kefula was a "demonic Saiyan"? Cabbe was talking about Kale. Kefula is completely sane. Cabbe made no reference to Kale's green hair when speaking of the demonic Saiyan so saying since Kefula has green Super Saiyan hair doesn’t mean she’s a demonic Saiyan. Kefula's behavior, again, is pretty sane.

[Bergamo]

Freeza helping gohan against kafla has a lot of sense ( his battle against those saiyan girls was unfinished ) ..
And 17-Roshi taking dyspo- kahseral could be a nice battle too ..
Too bad that vegeta - toppo and goku-Jiren seem to be fixed battles , but who knows ..

I would prefer if Gohan and Roshi went out fighting Kefla and then Frieza and 17 fought Dyspo and Kahseral. Why?

Kefla is a Demon Saiyan. Gohan is a Saiyan and Roshi has a demon sealing technique.

Kahseral is a cyborg. 17 is a cyborg.

Goku/Vegeta/Frieza vs Jiren/Toppo/Dyspo is basically perfect, so why change it.

Where was is it Kefula was a "demonic Saiyan"? Cabbe was talking about Kale. Kefula is completely sane. Cabbe made no reference to Kale's green hair when speaking of the demonic Saiyan so saying since Kefula has green Super Saiyan hair doesn’t mean she’s a demonic Saiyan. Kefula's behavior, again, is pretty sane.

Correction: Kefla is 50% demonic.

[Saiga]

I don't think that's literally demonic.

[RandomGuy96]

Is Broly literally the devil?

[Noah]

Is Broly literally the devil?

Don't know how accurate this is, since it might be a dub line: when Piccolo addresses him as a monster Broly replies saying he's not a monster, but the devil itself.

I love those references

I don't have a problem with these when they are minimal, but when they happen at every chapter it's kinda annoying.

Reconstructing panel layouts is lazy on Toyotaro's parts, but they don't affect the narrative.

But on the structure of the fight, yes? Like I said above, it's all cool doing references to the original work here and there, but not all the time. I remember seeing a interview of Toriyama pointing that Toyotaro should try do his own thing instead of trying to mimic him.

[Bergamo]

Is Broly literally the devil?

Don't know how accurate this is, since it might be a dub line: when Piccolo addresses him as a monster Broly replies saying he's not a monster, but the devil itself.

I love those references

I don't have a problem with these when they are minimal, but when they happen at every chapter it's kinda annoying.

Reconstructing panel layouts is lazy on Toyotaro's parts, but they don't affect the narrative.

But on the structure of the fight, yes? Like I said above, it's all cool doing references to the original work here and there, but not all the time. I remember seeing a interview of Toriyama pointing that Toyotaro should try do his own thing instead of trying to mimic him.

All of your examples are from 20+ chapters ago. Toyotaro doesn't reference as often as he used to.

[Noah]

All of your examples are from 20+ chapters ago. Toyotaro doesn't reference as often as he used to.

Yep, nowadays he tends to reference his own stuff, making the fights feel very repetitive

[spoiler]


[/spoiler]

[Meshack]

Is Broly literally the devil?

Don't know how accurate this is, since it might be a dub line: when Piccolo addresses him as a monster Broly replies saying he's not a monster, but the devil itself.

I love those references

I don't have a problem with these when they are minimal, but when they happen at every chapter it's kinda annoying.

Reconstructing panel layouts is lazy on Toyotaro's parts, but they don't affect the narrative.

But on the structure of the fight, yes? Like I said above, it's all cool doing references to the original work here and there, but not all the time. I remember seeing a interview of Toriyama pointing that Toyotaro should try do his own thing instead of trying to mimic him.

No it’s accurate. Broly believed he was worse than a monster.

[prince212]

All of your examples are from 20+ chapters ago. Toyotaro doesn't reference as often as he used to.

Yep, nowadays he tends to reference his own stuff, making the fights feel very repetitive

[spoiler]


[/spoiler]

I don’t notice most of those kind of things to be honest, it doesn’t bother me . I guess some people is just looking to catch those references or same poses . Were you able to notice them all without somebody to show them to you ?
But ei I’m not a manga defender , I have mayor concerns about some panels clearly bad executed , wrong scales , weird necks ... that happened here and there and I’m shock he and the people who is supposed to be behind released those panels without correcting them .
Overall I’m happy with the result and waiting for the next chapter impatiently

[Bergamo]

All of your examples are from 20+ chapters ago. Toyotaro doesn't reference as often as he used to.

Yep, nowadays he tends to reference his own stuff, making the fights feel very repetitive

[spoiler]


[/spoiler]

I get how some of those examples could annoy you, but a flurry of punches is a flurry of punches. I don't know how you expect every single panel to look unique. The real issue is the ATATATATA panels where a character punches from the right of the page to the left. That's a super lazy way to show who has the advantage in a battle.

[kudo6000]

Toyotarou's mediocre art style can become really distracting at times. It wouldn't matter if the story telling was good enough to compensate, but that's rarely the case; if not ever. Despite the manga being my ultimate preference (as with most things), I still hold by my opinion of Toyotarou not being suited for the role of a mangaka. Sole illustrations -- as awkwardly proportioned as they may be at times -- are what he does best, I feel.

[TKA]

That's funny, cause that's exactly what the manga do!

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Hi.

I'm sure you, as a reasonable person, can see that there's a clear difference between referencing old panels from the original manga and reskinning wholesale narrative cues from the original.

[Alruneia]

I'm also somehow looking forward to it, though in my case that's probably because I can't wait to see the fandom react to whatever happens. If Gohan wins, there'll be drama. If Kefla wins, there'll be drama. If something else happens entirely, there'll definitely be drama. It's going to be interesting. (And if this thread gets locked during the leak period, which it does tend to do, that'll probably be a good thing.)

You forgot to mention the reference drama , thousands of fans looking for it

While that is absolutely something people will do, that search is par for the course at this point and it isn't something I look forward to watching anymore. It's also not related to the Gohan/Kefla situation.

[Aizamasu]

All of your examples are from 20+ chapters ago. Toyotaro doesn't reference as often as he used to.

Yep, nowadays he tends to reference his own stuff, making the fights feel very repetitive

[spoiler]


[/spoiler]

I don't really get what you're trying to say. Most of those aren't even references. Like Bergamo said, a flurry of punches is a flurry of punches and even then none of those images are copied from the others (their poses are different etc.).
However

The real issue is the ATATATATA panels where a character punches from the right of the page to the left. That's a super lazy way to show who has the advantage in a battle.

this is an issue that is easy to see and it's happening quite often.

But I agree that Toyotaro's fight scenes could be better.

[emperior]

That's funny, cause that's exactly what the manga do!

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Hi.

I'm sure you, as a reasonable person, can see that there's a clear difference between referencing old panels from the original manga and reskinning wholesale narrative cues from the original.

There’s surely a difference, you are right, but this doesn’t excuse Toyotaro for literally copying old panels from the manga. The manga is a visual story, seeing the same things I already saw in the original manga is not good for the story either, as it isn’t when the anime rehashed the Namek fight, the only major instance of such a thing happening in the anime (although there are other minor ones of course) or when it too references/callbacks past events (e.g. Vegeta’s Final Flash vs Magetta, Freeza looking exactly how he looked on Namek after tanking the Genkidama, when he tanked Toppo’s hakai).

I think these visual callbacks instances have been more present in the manga, where Toyotaro has often reused past events for his visual storytelling, while the anime used them fewer times but they also reused past plot points, something I don’t remember Toyotaro ever doing.
No one can deny how visual homages have a bigger impact on the manga, which already has limited pages and panels to work with.

References to past events are a problem of both the anime and manga of Super, by the way, so I just wished they would just cease.

Callbacks such as Goku reacting his fight with his Grandpa on episode 94 are more than fine and appreciated. It made sense in the context because he was exactly on the same ring where he last met Gohan.
In general, if the homages fit with the context without feeling out of nowhere, I can live with them, and I can like them.
Frost looking like Goku after he got kneed in the stomach by Raditz, for example, had no reason to be a thing in that context. Literally no reason. As there was literally no reason for Piccolo to sacrifice himself to save Gohan in the same way he did back in the Saiyan arc. It didn’t impact the plot in any way.
Goku and Vegeta using their iconic poses when training in the manga is a good callback, and it makes sense in the context. As does Freeza giving Goku his energy to repay his debt.
These callbacks work. The list of those that work and do not is long. Which is itself a problem, as I am quite tired of them riding off nostalgia with these callbacks. I would rather have none than having some that work and some that don’t.

[BlueBasilisk]

Callbacks such as Goku reacting his fight with his Grandpa on episode 94 are more than fine and appreciated. It made sense in the context because he was exactly on the same ring where he last met Gohan.
In general, if the homages fit with the context without feeling out of nowhere, I can live with them, and I can like them.

I think it helps that Goku's imaginary fight with Gohan was framed differently from the original scene and used different camera angles. The reference isn't so in-your-face and might slip by if you don't remember the exact sequence of that fight. Contrast that to Frieza's scene which is extremely similar to the original in terms of composition.

That's why I've suggested that Toyotaro should try drawing his reference panels from different perspectives if he insists on having them. That way you're at least getting some kind of fresh spin with your nostalgia. But I'd rather Toei and Toyo both cut way back on the callbacks and give us more cool new stuff instead.

[reecehoward]

That's funny, cause that's exactly what the manga do!

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Hi.

I'm sure you, as a reasonable person, can see that there's a clear difference between referencing old panels from the original manga and reskinning wholesale narrative cues from the original.

There’s surely a difference, you are right, but this doesn’t excuse Toyotaro for literally copying old panels from the manga. The manga is a visual story, seeing the same things I already saw in the original manga is not good for the story either, as it isn’t when the anime rehashed the Namek fight, the only major instance of such a thing happening in the anime (although there are other minor ones of course) or when it too references/callbacks past events (e.g. Vegeta’s Final Flash vs Magetta, Freeza looking exactly how he looked on Namek after tanking the Genkidama, when he tanked Toppo’s hakai).

I think these visual callbacks instances have been more present in the manga, where Toyotaro has often reused past events for his visual storytelling, while the anime used them fewer times but they also reused past plot points, something I don’t remember Toyotaro ever doing.
No one can deny how visual homages have a bigger impact on the manga, which already has limited pages and panels to work with.

References to past events are a problem of both the anime and manga of Super, by the way, so I just wished they would just cease.

Callbacks such as Goku reacting his fight with his Grandpa on episode 94 are more than fine and appreciated. It made sense in the context because he was exactly on the same ring where he last met Gohan.
In general, if the homages fit with the context without feeling out of nowhere, I can live with them, and I can like them.
Frost looking like Goku after he got kneed in the stomach by Raditz, for example, had no reason to be a thing in that context. Literally no reason. As there was literally no reason for Piccolo to sacrifice himself to save Gohan in the same way he did back in the Saiyan arc. It didn’t impact the plot in any way.
Goku and Vegeta using their iconic poses when training in the manga is a good callback, and it makes sense in the context. As does Freeza giving Goku his energy to repay his debt.
These callbacks work. The list of those that work and do not is long. Which is itself a problem, as I am quite tired of them riding off nostalgia with these callbacks. I would rather have none than having some that work and some that don’t.

I'd argue that Ssb Vegito vs Merged Zamasu was a blatant rehash of Super Vegito vs Buuhan. While it might have been illustrated differently, it was overall the same events minus Vegito getting absorbed.

[TKA]

There’s surely a difference, you are right, but this doesn’t excuse Toyotaro for literally copying old panels from the manga.

Listen.

If all the anime did was was copying animation frames from the original Z, I would've just rolled my eyes and not pay any attention to that. I don't care about that stuff beyond an eyeroll or sometime a "oh, that's neat". You don't see me complaining about the anime copying Broly fight choreography for Kale, or whatever.

What the anime does is steal whole beats from the original though. Let's look at an example with this fight:

Goku fights him and does better than everyone else, but Opponent is holding back. Opponent decides to take Goku just a wee bit seriously. Opponent beats the shit out of Goku. Goku is revealed to have been using Kaioken the whole time to try to keep up. Goku busts out the spirit bomb. It fails. Goku transforms to a new form. Goku proceeds to beat the shit out of Opponent.

Am I talking about Goku vs Jiren or Goku vs Frieza?

[emperior]

There’s surely a difference, you are right, but this doesn’t excuse Toyotaro for literally copying old panels from the manga.

Listen.

If all the anime did was was copying animation frames from the original Z, I would've just rolled my eyes and not pay any attention to that. I don't care about that stuff beyond an eyeroll or sometime a "oh, that's neat". You don't see me complaining about the anime copying Broly fight choreography for Kale, or whatever.

What the anime does is steal whole beats from the original though. Let's look at an example with this fight:

Goku fights him and does better than everyone else, but Opponent is holding back. Opponent decides to take Goku just a wee bit seriously. Opponent beats the shit out of Goku. Goku is revealed to have been using Kaioken the whole time to try to keep up. Goku busts out the spirit bomb. It fails. Goku transforms to a new form. Goku proceeds to beat the shit out of Opponent.

Am I talking about Goku vs Jiren or Goku vs Frieza?

I thought you stopped seeing the anime around episode 100? Because it shows by this post. I don’t deny how the Goku vs Jiren fight borrowed 2-3 elements from the Namek one, and I don’t deny how I would have preferred it to play a little differently.
But first of all, Goku didn’t do better than “everyone else”. Jiren had just fought Kale and Maji Kayo before him.
Second, Goku didn’t fare that better than those two. He was just able to stay on the ring and Jiren decided to wait for Goku to gather energy for his strongest attack, to take it head on with his absolutely power and to show everyone how he was the strongest on the ring. Quite different from Freeza’s fight. The bit about it being revealed that Goku was always fighting at his best is the same in the manga, so...
For last, Goku transformed out of nowhere because he failed with the Genkidama, not due to anger like on Namek and Jiren was literally unscathed by the Genkidama, unlike Freeza. Even then, Omen doesn’t do shit to Jiren except landing a knee to his stomach and dodging each of Jiren’s attacks. Then it ends and Jiren finishes Goku but fails to ring him out due to Hit attacking him. It’s only 20 episodes later that Goku manages to beat Jiren, and even then they fight on an almost equal level.

If you are going to keep attacking the anime for its downfalls, at least make sure you watch it. In your case, finish it or at the very least watch the episodes you are criticizing, which are 109 and 110 for your information.
I don’t come here to bash the manga chapters I haven’t read. I have read all of it, I have praised it whenever I felt like it deserved praise and criticized it whenever I felt it needed to be criticized. The same is for the anime. I expect you to do the same if you intend to discuss about it.

[Noah]

I don't know how you expect every single panel to look unique. The real issue is the ATATATATA panels where a character punches from the right of the page to the left. That's a super lazy way to show who has the advantage in a battle.

Not unique, but not exactly equal, see? We had some of these in the original manga, but were more directed to locations than the fights, I just expect more variations.