Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[BlueBasilisk]

I'm using the manga's gap between God and incomplete Blue as a reference point, which is probably less than a two-times boost. I feel like that could easily work for Resurrection 'F', which would also keep the 6-10-15 scale intact for the film while ensuring that Saiyan Beyond God accurately fulfills its description.

Otherwise, I think we're mostly agreed. The "2 base theory" is real only in the sense that the writers/Toriyama intended for there to be a god-like base at one point and then retconned it into a normal base later on for Super (specifically the manga and most of the anime), presumably to allow for all the other Super Saiyan forms within Goku's repertoire to continue existing.

I think the 'retcon' if there was one happened in the BoG arc where Goku 'powered down' into Super Saiyan instead of his base form after integrating the power of Super Saiyan God into himself. That version seems to imply that SS Goku was the one who retained the power of SSG and grew even stronger after. And during the arc Whis commented that Goku and Vegeta could go Super Saiyan but chose not to because it wasn't the point of his training. Since Beerus is much, much stronger than SSG compared to his movie countepart, I'm not sure if they gave him a huge buff, dialed back SSG a bit, or even both.

Goku and Vegeta being stronger than SS3 Gotenks as shown in the potaufeu arc still works without them necessarily being god-level in base. With God being the fourth SS form in the main continuity I think it becomes easy to overlook what a massive gulf exists between 3 and God and everything that fits in between there. Ultimate Gohan, Buutenks, Buuhan, Vegito, Super Vegito (plus Gogeta, Janemba,Hirudegarn and most if not all of GT if you want to look at the other continuities) all fall within that gap and there are huge power differences between those characters. I think the base Saiyans could easily be as strong as any of those while still not being up to the level of SSG.

Edit: Something just occurred to me and I might be able to make a case for this idea using the differences in the two versions Resurrection F.

In the movie continuity, of RoF, the fight between Goku and Final Form Frieza is lopsided in Goku's favor. He is giving Frieza a pretty decisive ass kicking and tells him to hit the road and Frieza is battered and losing his cool. This is the Goku who we were told can utilize the power of SSG in his normal form. Compare to the anime continuity where Goku says he couldn't beat Frieza without transforming. This being the Goku who apparently absorbed SSG as SS1.

I thought the difference between the two outcomes was simply that they had buffed Frieza, probably in response to the criticism that he wasn't a threat in the movie. But what if Frieza is basically the same, and it's Goku who is actually weaker thanks to the different events of BoG? The Super Saiyan seems to be a common thread there. Maybe it's not coincidence?

[ankokudaishogun]

- SSJB Goku and SSJ4 Goku Xeno are practically equal.

To be fair, both weren't going full power, it's quite obvious

The way Goku:Xeno acted and talked, he really appears a "mature adult" to Goku:Super's childishness.

[Lord Frieza]

I'm not going to give a ton of thought or lose any sleep over a fight between two Goku's in an 8 minute promotional piece.

I'd say they are about equal myself. Super's Goku got gigantic leaps in power through his godly transformations and training while Xeno Goku, whom I assume is a potential future version of GT Goku, is older and has undergone more battles as part of the time patrol which has pushed him to be on pare with SSB Goku as a SS4.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

- SSJB Goku and SSJ4 Goku Xeno are practically equal.

To be fair, both weren't going full power, it's quite obvious

The way Goku:Xeno acted and talked, he really appears a "mature adult" to Goku:Super's childishness.

Well, he's basically a post-GT Goku with extra spice to his life and he's been with the Time Patrol doing a lot of heroic things against demonic beings for quite awhile; kinda makes sense.

You know, adding to that, I think Xeno Goku is supposed to be a lot stronger than how he was while experiencing GT's events; that's to be expected, of course, but how much stronger is the real question.

SS4 Xeno Goku is somewhat equivalent to DBS's current SSB Goku, though in the manga adaptation, he does lose out in strength. It's a question of how much stronger he's gotten since GT, and how that compares to DBS's forms. For example, is the gap large enough that GT's SS4 Goku would only be equivalent to SSG Goku of DBS? It's certainly plausible.

[Bullza]

From what I know Goku: Xeno isn't meant to be the GT Goku. At least in the manga version he isn't so I assume it's the same for the anime too.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

From what I know Goku: Xeno isn't meant to be the GT Goku. At least in the manga version he isn't so I assume it's the same for the anime too.

Well, not like the actual GT Goku from the series.

But he did basically experience the same events and is for all intents and purposes a version of GT Goku, so scaling up from GT Goku is really the only reliable measure for Xeno Goku when comparing him to DBS Goku.

[Bullza]

But he did basically experience the same events and is for all intents and purposes a version of GT Goku, so scaling up from GT Goku is really the only reliable measure for Xeno Goku when comparing him to DBS Goku.

Did he though? In the manga, Trunks is supposed to be shortly after he killed Cell. Chronoa then pulls a Goku from his memories. After that they train for six months together.

I wouldn't have said it was a Goku who had gone through the events of GT but at most a Goku had gone through the Cell Games because Trunks didn't know Goku during his GT days.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

But he did basically experience the same events and is for all intents and purposes a version of GT Goku, so scaling up from GT Goku is really the only reliable measure for Xeno Goku when comparing him to DBS Goku.

Did he though? In the manga, Trunks is supposed to be shortly after he killed Cell. Chronoa then pulls a Goku from his memories. After that they train for six months together.

I wouldn't have said it was a Goku who had gone through the events of GT but at most a Goku had gone through the Cell Games because Trunks didn't know Goku during his GT days.

Every other source I've gone to seems to suggest Xeno Goku is some version of GT Goku.

[Miracles]

That's not proof of anything. She wasn't necessarily comparing Goku's Super Saiyan 2 power to his previous Super Saiyan 2 power, it was more likely a comparison to her own power that was losing out. Goku's power boiling up inside of him isn't proof of anything. Elder Kai's comment isn't proof of anything either.

There is nothing to suggest he randomly powered up massively in the same form. Nothing. They never once said directly that'd he'd grown vastly more powerful than before because of a certain circumstance.

You have to prove those statements of Goku "exerting power beyond his limits [Elder Kai]" and the ones from Goku about "unbelievable power boiling up inside" when he even stated it was "thanks" to Kale and Caulifla for that power and Caulifla's statement about asking if "this is the same SSJ2 Goku" are for a different circumstance. Cause Shin even states that Goku was being "pushed back" by the Saiyan girls and then Kurririn tells Kai that Goku always "pushes himself to the edge to further himself." Then in the next moment we see Goku handling the Saiyan girls with Kai now stating "he ins't losing" with Champa now worried. We see Goku grow as he is fighting and all those comments prove that Goku's power increases as the battle went on. There are other examples as well.

When she was falling off of the platform along with Caulifla. If she didn't have the Potara earring then she would have been out. Just because she was able to continue fighting doesn't mean she was outclassed as they specifically said that she was.

If one character says that Goku is in another class from "those two women" then that is not them being equal. That is Goku being in another class as was shown.

That in another class statement came after Elder Kai's statment about Goku exerting power beyond his limits tho. Despite that comment the truth is Kale didn't ever lose to Goku in a straight up brawl ever. This is a fact that you can't refute and it is besides the fact that Kale is Blue level still.

[Bullza]

Every other source I've gone to seems to suggest Xeno Goku is some version of GT Goku.

Well there could be multiple different Goku Xeno's. I'm sure somewhere here said the Goku Xeno from the 3DS game wasn't the same as the one from arcade game. There's also Fusions and the manga.

I don't know much about it but at least in the manga Chronoa just pulled Goku out of nowhere after looking into Trunks' memories.

You have to prove those statements of Goku "exerting power beyond his limits [Elder Kai]" and the ones from Goku about "unbelievable power boiling up inside"

Probe what? Neither statement has anything to do with even implying that Goku randomly powered up so a tired Super Saiyan God was stronger than a full power Super Saiyan Blue. Neither suggest anything remotely like that.

Actions > statements. Kale didn't ever lose to Goku in a straight up brawl ever. This is a fact that you can't refute and it is besides the fact that Kale is Blue level still.

The actions are consistent with the statement though. She didn't lose but she was clearly losing and would have lost had she not fused. It's not like we needed to see the conclusion of it to tell Goku was a lot stronger.

[Miracles]

Probe what? Neither statement has anything to do with even implying that Goku randomly powered up so a tired Super Saiyan God was stronger than a full power Super Saiyan Blue. Neither suggest anything remotely like that.

The actions are consistent with the statement though. She didn't lose but she was clearly losing and would have lost had she not fused. It's not like we needed to see the conclusion of it to tell Goku was a lot stronger.

You are all over the place. You Assuming Kale would of lost to a stronger SSJG Goku is not the point. The point is Kale is Blue level. You sidestepped this fact like you sidestepped the rest of my post showing Goku was getting stronger as he was battling the Saiyan girls.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So, with Kefla, her base form was easily keeping up with and even slightly overtaking SSG Goku. While he was tired, he was acclimating to extreme conditions and recovering stamina as he fought and got used to being so drained, thus allowing him to exert relatively similar levels of power as before.

With this in mind, base Vegito would logically be similarly strong.

So.... how strong, minimum, do you guys suppose base Goku and Vegeta would have to be to produce a base Vegito strong enough to overtake SSG? This is, of course, assuming that the jump from base to SSG isn't the same as it was when the ritual was first performed.

[Bullza]

You are all over the place. You Assuming Kale would of lost to a stronger SSJG Goku is not the point. The point is Kale is Blue level. You sidestepped this fact like you sidestepped the rest of my post showing Goku was getting stronger as he was battling the Saiyan girls.

There is no assumption, Kale was on the edge of the platform, Goku fired a Kamehameha at them, they began to move off of the platform and towards a lost but were saved until the Potara to fuse so to fight back against someone that was superior.

We know he's superior because they said point blank that he was. There was nothing to be misunderstood or taken out of context like the quotes you mention. It was said very plainly that Goku was in a different class from the other two.

Kale isn't Blue level if she isn't even God level. Kale wasn't even the ace on her team. Hit was the ace and even Hit wasn't really Blue level without his tricks.

The stickers show that Kale is inferior to both Hit and Super Saiyan Goku but superior to Super Saiyan 3 Goku which would be right because Jiren only reacted to her.

[PFM18]

I think the 'retcon' if there was one happened in the BoG arc where Goku 'powered down' into Super Saiyan instead of his base form after integrating the power of Super Saiyan God into himself. That version seems to imply that SS Goku was the one who retained the power of SSG and grew even stronger after. And during the arc Whis commented that Goku and Vegeta could go Super Saiyan but chose not to because it wasn't the point of his training. Since Beerus is much, much stronger than SSG compared to his movie countepart, I'm not sure if they gave him a huge buff, dialed back SSG a bit, or even both.

Right, and I think this is where people get confused. DBS retcons the movies in several different ways in terms of the power scale but it does not retcon itself. When there was a "retcon" it was simply the movies being retconned and nothing else. In DBS they really emphasized for an episode and a half that SSJ was on par with SSG after he "dropped out" of SSG. As you mentioned in your post, where Beerus stands was changed too. In regards to whether it was a SSG nerf, or Beerus got nerfed, I think Beerus just got a huge buff because SSG is still being perceived as being way stronger than Vegetto.

Goku and Vegeta being stronger than SS3 Gotenks as shown in the potaufeu arc still works without them necessarily being god-level in base. With God being the fourth SS form in the main continuity I think it becomes easy to overlook what a massive gulf exists between 3 and God and everything that fits in between there. Ultimate Gohan, Buutenks, Buuhan, Vegito, Super Vegito (plus Gogeta, Janemba,Hirudegarn and most if not all of GT if you want to look at the other continuities) all fall within that gap and there are huge power differences between those characters. I think the base Saiyans could easily be as strong as any of those while still not being up to the level of SSG.Goku and Vegeta being stronger than SS3 Gotenks as shown in the potaufeu arc still works without them necessarily being god-level in base. With God being the fourth SS form in the main continuity I think it becomes easy to overlook what a massive gulf exists between 3 and God and everything that fits in between there. Ultimate Gohan, Buutenks, Buuhan, Vegito, Super Vegito (plus Gogeta, Janemba,Hirudegarn and most if not all of GT if you want to look at the other continuities) all fall within that gap and there are huge power differences between those characters. I think the base Saiyans could easily be as strong as any of those while still not being up to the level of SSG.

Exactly. Goku and Vegeta can be far stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, and Ultimate Gohan/Buuhan/Vegetto for that matter, while still being well below Super Saiyan God because of the enormous gap that exists between SSJ3 and SSG. A lot of things can fit in that gap.

So yeah I agree completely and I think more people need to understand this. The movie continuity handles the Base Saiyans much differently than the DBS continuity. That said, all of this only applies to the anime as the scene in space where Goku absorbs SSG, Base Goku>SSJ3 Gotenks, and the Monaka suit stuff all don't exist in the manga. Actually the power scale in general is completely and totally different in the manga compared to the anime.

So, with Kefla, her base form was easily keeping up with and even slightly overtaking SSG Goku. While he was tired, he was acclimating to extreme conditions and recovering stamina as he fought and got used to being so drained, thus allowing him to exert relatively similar levels of power as before.

With this in mind, base Vegito would logically be similarly strong.

So.... how strong, minimum, do you guys suppose base Goku and Vegeta would have to be to produce a base Vegito strong enough to overtake SSG? This is, of course, assuming that the jump from base to SSG isn't the same as it was when the ritual was first performed.

Right Vegetto would have similar strength. And I think that is a reasonable assumption to assume the jump from base to SSG is not the same as when the ritual first happened. Before we were shown that SSJ3->SSG was an astronomically large boost, but in the ToP we see that it is significantly stronger than SSJ3, but not dramatically so. We also see in the tournament that the SSG boost<<potara boost even though it was clear the opposite was true when the ritual was first performed. So yes, it is abundantly clear that pre-ritual and post-ritual SSG forms have different multipliers.

That said, Kefla overtook SSG in base so I think current Base Goku and Vegeta could overtake SSG of either of them individually.

[ZombieVito]

So, with Kefla, her base form was easily keeping up with and even slightly overtaking SSG Goku. While he was tired, he was acclimating to extreme conditions and recovering stamina as he fought and got used to being so drained, thus allowing him to exert relatively similar levels of power as before.

With this in mind, base Vegito would logically be similarly strong.

So.... how strong, minimum, do you guys suppose base Goku and Vegeta would have to be to produce a base Vegito strong enough to overtake SSG? This is, of course, assuming that the jump from base to SSG isn't the same as it was when the ritual was first performed.

Not necessarily.

For all we know Caulifla and Kale had a bigger boost with the Portara than Goku and Vegeta. Portara fusion is not the same for everyone, as proven by Kibitoshin and Merged Zamasu.

Kefla's Super Saiyan forms were already vastly stronger than the normal ones, maybe her base form is stronger than normal as well.

[Marlowe89]

I think the 'retcon' if there was one happened in the BoG arc where Goku 'powered down' into Super Saiyan instead of his base form after integrating the power of Super Saiyan God into himself.

We do briefly see Goku power down to his base state in the movie, but he also transforms into a Super Saiyan just a moment later, so I wouldn't say it's drastically different from the anime. Super's RoF arc also has Goku clarifying Super Saiyan Blue to be the "Super Saiyan [form] of a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God", just like in the film, so even the show doesn't seem to discard the movie continuity's ideas entirely at that point.

I think that a lot of people would agree on a retcon of some kind, the dispute just seems to be centered around when it happened, exactly. I'm still pretty confident that it was within the show.

[PFM18]

I think the 'retcon' if there was one happened in the BoG arc where Goku 'powered down' into Super Saiyan instead of his base form after integrating the power of Super Saiyan God into himself.

We do briefly see Goku power down to his base state in the movie, but he also transforms into a Super Saiyan just a moment later, so I wouldn't say it's drastically different from the anime. Super's RoF arc also has Goku clarifying Super Saiyan Blue to be the "Super Saiyan [form] of a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God", just like in the film, so even the show doesn't seem to discard the movie continuity's ideas entirely at that point.

I think that a lot of people would agree on a retcon of some kind, the dispute just seems to be centered around when it happened, exactly. I'm still pretty confident that it was within the show.

Super Saiyan Blue is Super Saiyan with God Ki. Goku states as much. The movie and the anime corroborate on this but this doesn't in any way show that DBS didn't retcon the movies. There is no such contradiction. It is clear that the anime retconned the movie continuity in several different ways and this is just one of them. In the promotional material for the movie we see that "Saiyan Beyond God" where God Ki is used in base exists, in the movie continuity we see that Beerus used 70% of his power against Goku, in the movie continuity, it is implied that SSB is only marginally stronger than SSG since Goku has to stay under a 10 and SSG was a 6. All of these things were changed from the movie to the anime.

The central concept of SSB being a godly version of SSJ was not changed, but the power structure surrounding the form was entirely changed.

[Marlowe89]

Super Saiyan Blue is Super Saiyan with God Ki. Goku states as much.

Goku never calls it just "Super Saiyan with God ki" at any point, he clarifies that it's the Super Saiyan version of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. There is a distinction -- the latter implies something more specific than the former because it also mentions the form preceding Blue, i.e. "Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God". Official subtitles, accurate translations and even the dub all corroborate the intended meaning of that line.

Does that apply to most of Super? Obviously not. The power structure surrounding the form was indeed changed; I don't dispute that.

[PFM18]

Super Saiyan Blue is Super Saiyan with God Ki. Goku states as much.

Goku never calls it just "Super Saiyan with God ki", he clarifies that it's the Super Saiyan version of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. There is a distinction -- the latter implies something more specific than the former because it also mentions the form preceding Blue, i.e. "Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God". Official subtitles, accurate translations and even the dub all corroborate the intended meaning of that line.

Does that apply to most of Super? Obviously not. The power structure surrounding the form was indeed changed; I don't dispute that.

I mean I am paraphrasing here of course. His exact verbatim did not include the phrase "Super Saiyan with God Ki." Super Saiyan God is Goku using God Ki. Super Saiyan Blue is the Super Saiyan version of such a state.(And, by extension, is the Super Saiyan version of Super Saiyan God or the power of a Saiyan with Super Saiyan God) This fits pretty well with his exact verbatim that he used anyway. The only difference is that the "Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" was different between the movie and anime. In the movie it was a Saiyan who could use the power in their base, hence "Saiyan Beyond God", and in the anime this was a Saiyan using the Super Saiyan God form itself. That is the difference.

[Marlowe89]

The only difference is that the "Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" was different between the movie and anime.

The verbatim of the line is completely identical in both versions, so it carries the same meaning. The definition of "Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God" is just that -- a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, not simply Super Saiyan God. The former is what was said to precede Super Saiyan Blue, not the latter.

If Blue was just intended to be the Super Saiyan version of Super Saiyan God, Goku would have said that instead. He didn't. That's assumed on your part.