Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[BlueBasilisk]

I think the 'retcon' if there was one happened in the BoG arc where Goku 'powered down' into Super Saiyan instead of his base form after integrating the power of Super Saiyan God into himself.

We do briefly see Goku power down to his base state in the movie, but he also transforms into a Super Saiyan just a moment later, so I wouldn't say it's drastically different from the anime. Super's RoF arc also has Goku clarifying Super Saiyan Blue to be the "Super Saiyan [form] of a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God", just like in the film, so even the show doesn't seem to discard the movie continuity's ideas entirely at that point.

I think that a lot of people would agree on a retcon of some kind, the dispute just seems to be centered around when it happened, exactly. I'm still pretty confident that it was within the show.

We do, but he doesn't seem to realize he's done it until Beerus points out that he isn't Super Saiyan God anymore despite the big power spike that should give him. Plus you have him transforming back into Super Saiyan God briefly after that to stop Beerus' final attack (and Toriyama saying in an interview he wouldn't need to do that). I think that combined with the RoF movie's poor explanation of Blue contributes to a lot of the confusion. I've never understood the argument that the gold forms were supposed to be phased out when he see one right there at the end of BoG, and Goku and Vegeta's training with Whis showed that Blue has a different trigger from normal SS.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You know, we might have some clarity after all about where DBS characters compare to GT characters, though with DBH, anything's possible.

SS4 Broly was able to beat the sh*t outta the other GT SS4 characters in DBH, and he's gotten a Dark Dragon Ball AND a Time Breaker mask since then in the more recent materials. This version, called Broly Dark, was on-par with SS4 Xeno Goku.

So, at least as far as DBH is concerned, post-ToP SSB Goku is easily greater than SS4 GT Goku.

[Marlowe89]

I've never understood the argument that the gold forms were supposed to be phased out when he see one right there at the end of BoG, and Goku and Vegeta's training with Whis showed that Blue has a different trigger from normal SS.

It originates from the movie, where there were all kinds of different materials (in addition to the implication behind Goku's description) calling Blue the result of Goku going Super Saiyan after obtaining the power of Super Saiyan God. This was further divided between two camps of people arguing that A.) this meant that the gold forms were intended to be phased out, or B.) this meant that Goku had access to two different bases simultaneously. The anime never directly calls this into question until the U6 arc. Whis' training also presumably allowed Goku and Vegeta to fully acclimate to that power in their bases since Whis instructed them not to transform, which might be why triggering Super Saiyan after accomplishing that unlocked Super Saiyan Blue.

I won't say I don't sympathize with your confusion here, because I do. The fact that the transformation hierarchy was seemingly changed from that - whether it was between the movies and Super or within Super itself - just added more fuel to the dumpster fire that is the DB fandom. Seems to me that the gold forms weren't originally a part of the equation, but were later added and changed around for merchandising purposes.

You know, we might have some clarity after all about where DBS characters compare to GT characters, though with DBH, anything's possible.

SS4 Broly was able to beat the sh*t outta the other GT SS4 characters in DBH, and he's gotten a Dark Dragon Ball AND a Time Breaker mask since then in the more recent materials. This version, called Broly Dark, was on-par with SS4 Xeno Goku.

So, at least as far as DBH is concerned, post-ToP SSB Goku is easily greater than SS4 GT Goku.

That would also jive with the idea that Super Saiyan God is far beyond Super Saiyan 4, since it was suggested to be a level of power Goku could never obtain on his own. Xeno Goku is only capable of matching Blue in that form because his base is so absurdly powerful, I'd wager.

Then again, I don't think that Heroes is any more relevant to Super than it was before just because it has a short promotional anime now.

[PFM18]

If Blue was just intended to be the Super Saiyan version of Super Saiyan God, Goku would have said that instead. He didn't. That's assumed on your part.

I mean I think Blue was intended to be the SSJ version of SSG hence the name literally being "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan." If Goku were to use the exact verbatim to say that it is a "Super Saiyan God that goes Super Saiyan" it would kind of imply that you first must go Super Saiyan God or that you need to know Super Saiyan God to go Super Saiyan Blue. Neither of which are really true. We don't know that Vegeta can use Super Saiyan God, but he can use Super Saiyan Blue. From the name and the way the form is portrayed, it is simply a result of being able to harness God Ki and going Super Saiyan. It may have been intended that the normal SSJ forms would be tossed, but that is just an assumption on your part.

[Marlowe89]

If Goku were to use the exact verbatim to say that it is a "Super Saiyan God that goes Super Saiyan" it would kind of imply that you first must go Super Saiyan God or that you need to know Super Saiyan God to go Super Saiyan Blue.

Goku wouldn't need to phrase it in that exact manner, and he doesn't use that sentence structure in the movie/anime. The verbatim was that Blue is the "Super Saiyan version of Saiyan-with-the-power-of-Super-Saiyan-God" which would have been phrased (simply) as "Super Saiyan version of Super Saiyan God" if that was the intention.

Post-retcon, Dragon Ball Fusions does imply that Blue is a combination of Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God, but that would presumably make SSG a requirement on Vegeta's part. According to the manga, it's just a power-up from Super Saiyan God. Take that however you will.

It may have been intended that the normal SSJ forms would be tossed, but that is just an assumption on your part.

I never claimed it wasn't. That particular assumption is based on the official description for SSGSS at the time, but as I explained in the post above, even back then there were competing hypotheses (two bases, BoG's SS being a prototype for SSB, etc.).

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The way I see it, in my own personal headcanon, SSB's whole deal is that the regular SS form is a better means of channeling SSG's power and expanding it with greater Ki control at the cost of reduced stamina.

Makes sense, in a kind of roundabout way, knowing that the source of SSG is linked to the wandering spirit of a Super Saiyan, the legendary Super Saiyan Yamoshi; Super Saiyan channeling the power of Super Saiyan, kinda.

In fact, another personal headcanon of mine is that SSBE came about for Vegeta because his heart was at its most righteous and pure when he broke his limits, explaining the increase in how much his SS form channeled SSG's power and why it has black pupils and blue irises like SSG's red irises.

[PFM18]

Goku wouldn't need to phrase it in that exact manner, and he doesn't use that sentence structure in the movie/anime. The verbatim was that Blue is the "Super Saiyan version of Saiyan-with-the-power-of-Super-Saiyan-God" which would have been phrased (simply) as "Super Saiyan version of Super Saiyan God" if that was the intention.

Post-retcon, Dragon Ball Fusions does imply that Blue is a combination of Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God, but that would presumably make SSG a requirement on Vegeta's part.

Yeah I'm just gonna have to agree to disagree with you on this one. Either way, the intentions back in 2015 don't particularly matter now anyway.

I never claimed it wasn't. That particular assumption is based on the official description for SSGSS at the time, but as I explained in the post above, even back then there were competing hypotheses (two bases, BoG's SS being a prototype for SSB, etc.).

Ok so both positions are based on their own personal assumptions of the material in question. Fair enough.

These "competing hypotheses" are no longer needed now that the story is over and it is cleared up where things stand. That said, things stand completely differently in the manga and anime. SSB doesn't become a dramatic increase over SSG until it is "completed" in the manga where it is a huge boost over SSG from the get-go in the anime.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The question then remains once again...... how strong is SSB compared to SSG?

Anime SSB and Complete SSB are clearly much greater than SSG, but the numerical difference is unknown.

I've always ascribed to them being 5-10 times greater, others believe it's a 50-fold differences, and others still think it's less than twice as strong.

[BlueBasilisk]

The question then remains once again...... how strong is SSB compared to SSG?

Anime SSB and Complete SSB are clearly much greater than SSG, but the numerical difference is unknown.

I've always ascribed to them being 5-10 times greater, others believe it's a 50-fold differences, and others still think it's less than twice as strong.

In the manga, standard SSB seems to be less than 10x based on what happened in the U6 tournament.

[Marlowe89]

The question then remains once again...... how strong is SSB compared to SSG?

You can check my discussion with dragon boss z a couple of pages ago for more details, but I have the gap between God and complete Blue (or just Blue in the anime) ranging anywhere from a two-fold to five-fold boost. The gap between God and incomplete Blue is probably less than twice the amount of power.

I definitely don't think it's supposed to be 50 times in any version of the story.

[PFM18]

The question then remains once again...... how strong is SSB compared to SSG?

Anime SSB and Complete SSB are clearly much greater than SSG, but the numerical difference is unknown.

I've always ascribed to them being 5-10 times greater, others believe it's a 50-fold differences, and others still think it's less than twice as strong.

In the manga it is arbitrarily less than a 10x boost as norma SSB and the difference is arbitrarily larger in CSSB.

In the anime it is 50x based on the description of the form and Goku's fight with Kefla. Goku fights Base Kefla as SSG and then she goes SSJ and he goes SSB and the gap between them is the same. This implies the difference from Base->SSJ and SSG->SSB is the same.

[Miracles]

There is no assumption, Kale was on the edge of the platform, Goku fired a Kamehameha at them, they began to move off of the platform and towards a lost but were saved until the Potara to fuse so to fight back against someone that was superior.

We know he's superior because they said point blank that he was. There was nothing to be misunderstood or taken out of context like the quotes you mention. It was said very plainly that Goku was in a different class from the other two.

Kale isn't Blue level if she isn't even God level. Kale wasn't even the ace on her team. Hit was the ace and even Hit wasn't really Blue level without his tricks.

The stickers show that Kale is inferior to both Hit and Super Saiyan Goku but superior to Super Saiyan 3 Goku which would be right because Jiren only reacted to her.

Sigh, You keep using headcannon to support your claims and ignoring the facts presented to you. Stickers are not canon, Jiren, Toppo and Vegeta acknowledged Kale in all her appearances cause she IS Blue level as proven when she pwned Blue Goku before. Kale was up against a stronger red Goku PROVEN by the claims that Goku was pushing himself every time he was in trouble as stated by Krillin, Goku himself stated as he was fighting the girls "UNBELIEVABLE power is boiling up inside him!" Prove Goku was lying? Prove that he is in error? Prove the statement was concerning another instance?

You keep bringing up the "he is in a different class from those girls" bit but you failed to keep it in context. That was stated by Shin AFTER Elder Kai stated Goku is "exerting power beyond his limits" WHILE in RED!!!! Kale was TRADING BLOWS with this same stronger Red Goku, she never was on the ground grimacing in pain like Caulifla who was obviously losing and outmatched. Kale showed she was Blue level before and was on Goku's god level after he got stronger.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The question then remains once again...... how strong is SSB compared to SSG?

Anime SSB and Complete SSB are clearly much greater than SSG, but the numerical difference is unknown.

I've always ascribed to them being 5-10 times greater, others believe it's a 50-fold differences, and others still think it's less than twice as strong.

In the manga it is arbitrarily less than a 10x boost as norma SSB and the difference is arbitrarily larger in CSSB.

In the anime it is 50x based on the description of the form and Goku's fight with Kefla. Goku fights Base Kefla as SSG and then she goes SSJ and he goes SSB and the gap between them is the same. This implies the difference from Base->SSJ and SSG->SSB is the same.

The thing is, she's using a Super Saiyan form akin to Kale's, which was shown when Kale fought alongside SS2 Caulifla.

The green hair implies it's a bit different than regular Super Saiyan, as is her SS2 form afterwards like Kale. Plus, Goku later needed Kaioken to take her on.

So, Kefla's first SS form is potentially closer to a 100-fold difference than 50-fold, and Goku needing a 10/20 times Kaioken on top of SSB to match that would still make sense and prevent SSB's multiplication from being completely over-bloated compared to SSG.

[Marlowe89]

So, Kefla's first SS form is potentially closer to a 100-fold difference than 50-fold, and Goku needing a 10/20 times Kaioken on top of SSB to match that would still make sense and prevent SSB's multiplication from being completely over-bloated compared to SSG.

Moreover, even if Kefla's first Super Saiyan form actually was just a 50-fold difference, the fact that she was said to be stronger than the Universe 7 spirit bomb (which eclipses Kaioken Blue Goku) suggests that Blue couldn't be a 50-fold increase over God. It would have to be considerably less, and there's no reason that the manga and anime would arbitrarily use different multipliers.

[PFM18]

The question then remains once again...... how strong is SSB compared to SSG?

Anime SSB and Complete SSB are clearly much greater than SSG, but the numerical difference is unknown.

I've always ascribed to them being 5-10 times greater, others believe it's a 50-fold differences, and others still think it's less than twice as strong.

In the manga it is arbitrarily less than a 10x boost as norma SSB and the difference is arbitrarily larger in CSSB.

In the anime it is 50x based on the description of the form and Goku's fight with Kefla. Goku fights Base Kefla as SSG and then she goes SSJ and he goes SSB and the gap between them is the same. This implies the difference from Base->SSJ and SSG->SSB is the same.

The thing is, she's using a Super Saiyan form akin to Kale's, which was shown when Kale fought alongside SS2 Caulifla.

The green hair implies it's a bit different than regular Super Saiyan, as is her SS2 form afterwards like Kale. Plus, Goku later needed Kaioken to take her on.

So, Kefla's first SS form is potentially closer to a 100-fold difference than 50-fold, and Goku needing a 10/20 times Kaioken on top of SSB to match that would still make sense and prevent SSB's multiplication from being completely over-bloated compared to SSG.

Yes, Goku's Kaioken was needed.(Even though he didn't specify how much.) But he was losing as a SSG and the gap between them was about the same If Kefla's SSJ is more potent than normal SSJ, it is possible that the gap became slightly larger and Goku used Kaioken to make up the difference. Even then, SSB being 50x over SSG still makes sense.

So, Kefla's first SS form is potentially closer to a 100-fold difference than 50-fold, and Goku needing a 10/20 times Kaioken on top of SSB to match that would still make sense and prevent SSB's multiplication from being completely over-bloated compared to SSG.

Moreover, even if Kefla's first Super Saiyan form actually was just a 50-fold difference, the fact that she was said to be stronger than the Universe 7 spirit bomb (which eclipses Kaioken Blue Goku) suggests that Blue couldn't be a 50-fold increase over God. It would have to be considerably less, and there's no reason that the manga and anime would arbitrarily use different multipliers.

Kefla had an edge and continued to have an edge in SSJ but the gap stayed about the same. The SSB multiplier must be around 50x for this to hold true. She also wasn't said to be stronger than the Spirit Bomb. She was said to "rival" the Spirit Bomb. And for what it is worth, Goku's SSJ2 was also said to "rival" Gods of Destruction so we see how incredibly arbitrary this phrase is used in this series.

There's plenty of reason the manga and anime would have different multipliers. The manga splits it into two different forms. In the manga SSB has a less than 10x but CSSB could easily have a 50x multiplier. SSB just isn't treated the same in the manga and anime so parallels cannot be drawn here.

Frankly, given the form being called "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" and it simply being SSJ with God Ki, I think it is fairly clear that SSB is 50x over SSG. Especially when the fight with Kefla corroborates this so well.

[Marlowe89]

Kefla had an edge and continued to have an edge in SSJ but the gap stayed about the same. The SSB multiplier must be around 50x for this to hold true. She also wasn't said to be stronger than the Spirit Bomb. She was said to "rival" the Spirit Bomb.

If Super Saiyan Kefla rivals the spirit bomb, she's rivalling something over 20 times stronger than Goku in Super Saiyan Blue. The gap between them was also never implied to stay the same by anything in the episode -- SS Kefla was visibly stronger than Kaioken SSB Goku at full power.

There's plenty of reason the manga and anime would have different multipliers. The manga splits it into two different forms. In the manga SSB has a less than 10x but CSSB could easily have a 50x multiplier.

This is false. Super Saiyan God was suggested to be stronger than 10% of Super Saiyan Blue's strength, while the completed Super Saiyan Blue was explicitly stated to represent 100% of Blue's strength at all times; the incomplete version could only use 100% of the form's power in short instantaneous bursts, as stated by Goku. CSSB is actually the one that's less than ten times, not the initial SSB.

The manga doesn't split it into two different forms. It has an incomplete version and a complete version, and the latter has outright replaced the former as of the Universe Survival arc. Its full strength is equivalent to the anime's Super Saiyan Blue at full strength.

[PFM18]

SS Kefla was visibly stronger than Kaioken SSB Goku at full power.

Ok so is that why SSBKK Goku punched her once and she said her arm was numb and then he kicked her and she went flying into the rocks and people questioned if she was even able to stand up? She snuck up behind Goku during his KHH and knocked him out when he was off guard. Goku was dominating her prior to that. Once Goku goes Kaioken then he literally hits her twice and she is damaged both times and unable to hit him until she manages to get behind Goku and land a "sucker punch" of sorts.

Kefla had a slight edge in Base, then she has a slight edge in SSJ when Goku is SSB, and they appear to be on the same playing field in both bouts. Then Goku goes Kaioken and gains the advantage. Goku used Kaioken and started to overpower her prior to being kicked in the back.

[Marlowe89]

Kefla had a slight edge in Base, then she has a slight edge in SSJ when Goku is SSB, and they appear to be on the same playing field in both bouts.

SS Kefla didn't have a "slight" edge against SSB Goku; it was specifically implied to be much larger than before by the entire episode. The peanut gallery was (literally) blown away by her power in Super Saiyan, Champa was confident that she could easily take him at that point and said he miscalculated how strong she would be in that form, Whis described her power as "terrifying" and then said that Goku didn't think he'd be able to fight her without Kaioken.

A single ki blast from her was enough to force Goku into Kaioken Blue. He got multiple clean hits in, but she was still able to stand and easily keep fighting -- she gets one clean hit in on Kaioken SSB Goku and he immediately falls unconscious. I think the gap demonstrated between SS Kefla and SSB Goku is pretty obvious, and it's considerably larger than the gap between base Kefla and SSG Goku, who got the wind kicked out of him multiple times (even off-guard) yet was still able to fight.

If there's a 50-times difference between base Kefla and SS Kefla, there's no conceivable way that the same could be true of SSG Goku and SSB Goku. Even with a lowball estimate ignoring the comment that compared her to the spirit bomb, she's far closer to SSBKK than SSB.

[PFM18]

the peanut gallery was (literally) blown away by her power in Super Saiyan, Champa was confident that she could easily take him at that point and said he miscalculated how strong she would be in that form, Whis described her power as "terrifying" and then said that Goku didn't think he'd be able to fight her without Kaioken.

I want to preface this by saying this is hard to pinpoint since Goku's Kaioken level is unknown and Kefla's power is a moving target given that it was stated it was rising throughout the fight.

The peanut gallery being amazed means absolutely nothing. It was a big power up and it surprised them that's about it. They can't even compare her ki to Goku since they can't sense Goku's Ki. GOku and Kefla were literally trading blows and went even on a ki struggle. It was pretty darn even with Kefla having a slight edge. Vados immediately questioned Champa's optimism saying that Kefla should be careful against SSB Goku. Goku found it necessary to use Kaioken since she was stronger, but not overwhelmingly so. Throughout the entire fight it was emphasized that Kefla's ki was rising so she gained a significant advantage against Goku, fired a ki blast and then Goku went Kaioken. Yes, Kaioken was necessary as Goku was at a disadvantage but not any more than he was against Base Kefla. As soon as Goku used Kaioken he runs circles around her. Shows superior speed out maneuvering her and punching her in the arm where she says that it has become numb from his punch as she is being forced backwards. Then Goku kicks her into the ruble and Champa starts yelling about her losing as she struggles to get up. Then Kefla fires a barrage of ki blasts after she had done it several times and Goku implies he's ready for it, and fires a KHH when Kefla sneaks behind him and kicks him from behind. This scene was clearly a result of her tricking Goku and not overpowering him. She switched it up on him and caught him off guard.

There is literally no indication from that fight that the gap is widened when Kefla goes SSJ and Goku goes SSB. They are still in a struggle with Kefla having a slight edge and then Goku clearly gains an advantage when he goes Kaioken prior to being tricked by her. The statement about her rivaling the Spirit Bomb was in reference to her being the stimulus to trigger UI because she had defeated Goku and pushed him to do more. As we see with Gowasu, the phrase "rivals" can be extremely vague in this series.

Ultimately, my takeaway was that the boost from SSG->SSB is atleast pretty similar to the boost from Base->SSJ.

[Marlowe89]

The peanut gallery being amazed means absolutely nothing. It was a big power up and it surprised them that's about it. They can't even compare her ki to Goku since they can't sense Goku's Ki.

You're ignoring my use of the term "literally". The peanut gallery were physically bracing themselves from the impact of SS Kefla's ki pressure before everyone commented about how insane her strength was. They didn't do that at all for SSB Goku. Vados questioning Champa's optimism was immediately followed by Champa saying that it wouldn't be a problem because he underestimated her strength. Goku found it necessary to use Kaioken because her power was "terrifying" in Whis' own words.

This scene was clearly a result of her tricking Goku and not overpowering him. She switched it up on him and caught him off guard.

That doesn't particularly matter and isn't even my point. Base Kefla turned SSG Goku into her personal punching bag and even caught him off-guard; he was still able to fight. SS Kefla caught SSBKK Goku off-guard exactly one time and one-shotted him into oblivion. Being "tricked" doesn't change the fact that he was knocked unconscious with a single kick to the face. The gap was widened significantly. No way around it, really.

The statement about her rivaling the Spirit Bomb was in reference to her being the stimulus to trigger UI because she had defeated Goku and pushed him to do more.

It was also in reference to her power rivaling the Genki Dama, because that's exactly what Whis states word-for-word. You're downplaying a direct comparison here to support your argument.