Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PFM18]

You're ignoring my use of the term "literally". The peanut gallery were physically bracing themselves from the pressure of SS Kefla's ki before everyone commented about how insane her strength was. They didn't do that at all for SSB Goku. Vados questioning Champa's optimism was immediately followed by Champa saying that it wouldn't be a problem because he underestimated her strength. Goku found it necessary to use Kaioken because her power was "terrifying" in Whis' own words.

I am well aware of your use of the word literally. They were physically pushed back and she showed she had a tremendous ki etc. But comparing the reaction here to the one when Goku powers up into SSB is irrational. Goku's power up into SSB does absolutely nothing to the environment most of the time and for that matter less than when he powered up in the Cell Arc. Using this physical manifestation of the ki exerted completely disregards the entire premise of Goku's increases in DBS. He has far superior ki control to what he ever had before and his power ups do almost nothing to the environment so this comparison of the physical display makes no sense. Yeah Champa is happy with her strength and it is more than he expected but he still only really is confident, like he said because of Goku's exhaustion and his confidence quickly fades as soon as Goku uses the Kaioken. He suddenly is angry at her and doubts her chances.

That doesn't particularly matter and isn't even my point. Base Kefla turned SSG Goku into her personal punching bag and even caught him off-guard; he was still able to fight. SS Kefla caught SSBKK Goku off-guard exactly one time and one-shotted him into oblivion. Being "tricked" doesn't change the fact that he was knocked unconscious with a single kick to the face. The gap was widened significantly. No way around it, really.

It does particularly matter because you seem to be under the impression that Kefla is closer to SSBKK than SSB and that she actually is on par with the Spirit Bomb. If she ACTUALLY was on par with the spirit bomb, then tricking Goku would not be even necessary because she could just overpower him. Not only was she not overpowering him, but she hot almost knocked out from two hits prior to blindsiding Goku. Kaioken Goku dominated her disproving her actually being as strong as the Spirit Bomb, and by extension SSBKKx20. She is closer to SSB, she is just strong enough that Kaioken is necessary. Just as she is stronger than SSG to where SSB became necessary. The fight is fairly even in both bouts whether it be Base vs SSG or SSJ vs SSB. The tides only turn when Goku uses Kaioken and overpowers her before Kefla blindsiding him. The fact that it only took one kick doesn't exactly say much about her power considering how easily Goku gets wrecked when his guard is down like in this instance. Besides, he wasn't unconscious he literally got up briefly afterwards.

The point is Kefla has an advantage over SSG Goku, then Goku goes SSB, and Kefla goes SSJ and she still has a similarly slight advantage. They literally trade blows where Goku doesn't even seem entirely concerned and then they fire ki blasts at each other to a draw. She gains power during the fight and the advantage grows and becomes large enough that Goku can't compete without the Kaioken at which point he dominates her prior to being caught off guard.

[Koitsukai]

The question then remains once again...... how strong is SSB compared to SSG?

Anime SSB and Complete SSB are clearly much greater than SSG, but the numerical difference is unknown.

I've always ascribed to them being 5-10 times greater, others believe it's a 50-fold differences, and others still think it's less than twice as strong.

Well, SSGod couldn't even make Jiren use more than just his index finger. SSBlue made Jiren protect himself and was able to throw him some distance against a mountain. I don't know how much stronger that is, but is a lot going from just needing one finger to being actually careful against that kind of power

[Marlowe89]

I am well aware of your use of the word literally. They were physically pushed back and she showed she had a tremendous ki etc. But comparing the reaction here to the one when Goku powers up into SSB is irrational.

Hardly. SSB was noted on multiple occasions to possess an intense pressure by characters incapable of sensing divine ki, not to mention that the impact of its transformation has also knocked back other characters several times even as recently as the tournament. That's not an irrational comparison, that's you attempting to avoid the comparison with rationalizations that make no sense because your point doesn't logically hold.

If she ACTUALLY was on par with the spirit bomb, then tricking Goku would not be even necessary because she could just overpower him.

We have no idea exactly how much stronger Universe 7's spirit bomb is compared to SSBKK at full power, so that's a moot point. She could feasibly rival the spirit bomb and still resort to deceiving SSBKK Goku, especially if he was using the full multiplier.

Still doesn't change my point. Base Kefla beat the crap out of SSG Goku and blindsided him, he was still going at it just fine. SS Kefla got no more than one clean hit in on SSBKK Goku, who was considerably stronger than SSB Goku, and he was out cold. The gap clearly didn't remain the same at all. Her vast superiority over SSB Goku is explicitly supported by Whis comparing her strength to the spirit bomb.

[ZombieVito]

Goku very clearly used a much higher multiplier for Kaioken since he powers up and since Whis compared Kefla to the Genkidama then Goku used KK x20.

[PFM18]

Goku very clearly used a much higher multiplier for Kaioken since he powers up and since Whis compared Kefla to the Genkidama then Goku used KK x20.

I already addressed Whis's comparison to the Genki dama.

Hardly. SSB was noted on multiple occasions to possess an intense pressure by characters incapable of sensing divine ki, not to mention that the impact of its transformation has also knocked back other characters several times even as recently as the tournament. That's not an irrational comparison, that's you attempting to avoid the comparison with rationalizations that make no sense because your point doesn't logically hold.

Yes, the pressure that people feel is a result of the God Ki. This "pressure" isn't even visible and is only verbalized but the affects are never actually physically shown. God Ki exerts a "pressure" obviously, but this is irrelevant. Clearly this pressure is very minor and doesn't actually visibly affect the character. It isn't actually causing a strong force that is destroying the environment during the power up phase. For example, Vegeta powers up into SSB against Trunks, and Trunks notes the pressure that he feels, but he isn't blown back or really affected visibily in any way. There is absolutely no affect to the environment whatsoever. That is literally the point of SSB, the enhanced Ki control. So making a comparison between how other characters are affected by the visible affects of the transformation makes absolutely no sense. Frankly it is just grasping for straws.

Still doesn't change my point. Base Kefla beat the crap out of SSG Goku and blindsided him, he was still going at it just fine. SS Kefla got no more than one clean hit in on SSBKK Goku, who was considerably stronger than SSB Goku, and he was out cold. The gap clearly didn't remain the same at all. Her vast superiority over SSB Goku is explicitly supported by Whis comparing her strength to the spirit bomb.

She really didn't blindside him in Base the way she did as SSJ. No clue what you are talking about here. the initial portions of the fight between SSB Goku and SSJ Kefla there is literally no indication of either being superior to the other. They trade blows and then draw in a ki blast clash. The gap was very similar in both fights, the only main difference being Kefla being able to outsmart Goku rather than overpower him when they were fighting as a SSJ and SSB(using Kaioken) respectively.

Again, Whis's comparison to the Spirit Bomb is because she was also the stimulus that triggered UI. We can reasonably presume that the Spirit Bomb was atleast equal in power to Goku's SSBKK and Kefla was getting pummeled by SSBKK prior to using deception to gain an advantage. Otherwise Goku would have no confidence in the Genki Dama given that SSBKKx20 had just failed. It would have been downright dumb to even try it if it wasn't atleast equal to the SSBKK that he had just used. So clearly she wasn't actually on par with the Spirit Bomb. Kefla "rivals" the Spirit Bomb in the same way that SSJ2 Goku "rivals" a God of Destruction according to Gowasu. In other words, not very much.

[ZombieVito]

Whis literally says that SS Kefla's power rivaled the Genkidama. It's a clear cut as it can get.

By the way, I was rewatching 123 again and did Goku use a higher Kaioken than 20 times? They say Goku broke his limits and it feels like his Kaioken is stronger than that.

[Marlowe89]

Clearly this pressure is very minor and doesn't actually visibly affect the character.

If it was minor, characters wouldn't have commented on how intense/great the pressure was. It has physically affected other characters on numerous occasions. You're painting a distinction between the two that doesn't exist at all -- the greater the ki pressure, the greater the potential knockback depending on who (or which form) is affected. This isn't complicated, and you're clearly grasping at straws in an attempt to circumvent the fact that the power of Kefla's ki affected her surroundings to a far greater degree than Goku's could, despite SSB's ki exhibiting the exact same effects in situations prior to that episode.

She really didn't blindside him in Base the way she did as SSJ. No clue what you are talking about here.

She specifically blindsided him in base twice, once with a clean hit to the back and then with a punch to the face that sent him flying. Repeating "literally no indication" like a broken record isn't going to change you dancing around the fact that she did far more damage to SSBKK Goku in Super Saiyan with a single shot than she could against SSG Goku in base under similar circumstances with multiple direct hits. The gap, once again, was completely different in both conflicts. SS Kefla's superiority over SSB Goku was obviously much greater than base Kefla's superiority over SSG Goku and it's not even close, also confirmed by Whis.

Again, Whis's comparison to the Spirit Bomb is because she was also the stimulus that triggered UI.

And again, she was the stimulus because her power rivaled the spirit bomb, as Whis flat-out stated. Repeating the reason for the comparison does nothing to change the actual comparison. It couldn't possibly be any more clear-cut, yet here you are, desperately trying to tip-toe around another direct statement that 100% disproves your whole stance from the jump.

Kefla "rivals" the Spirit Bomb in the same way that SSJ2 Goku "rivals" a God of Destruction according to Gowasu. In other words, not very much.

That's an extremely poor analogy. Gowasu's line "Who is this man that's not even a god but as strong as the God of Destruction?" was following up from his previous line, "That man fought with Beerus before? Then how come... how come that man is still alive?" -- it wasn't a direct comparison between Super Saiyan 2 and a God of Destruction, but rather something Gowasu inferred from being told Goku fought Beerus and survived.

Whis clearly observed the power of the spirit bomb as well as the power of SS Kefla's ki and then directly compared the two. Not much more to it than that. The only thing you're doing is twisting both statements to support your (already plainly contradicted) interpretation.

[Bullza]

Sigh, You keep using headcannon to support your claims and ignoring the facts presented to you. Stickers are not canon, Jiren, Toppo and Vegeta acknowledged Kale in all her appearances cause she IS Blue level as proven when she pwned Blue Goku before. Kale was up against a stronger red Goku PROVEN by the claims that Goku was pushing himself every time he was in trouble as stated by Krillin, Goku himself stated as he was fighting the girls "UNBELIEVABLE power is boiling up inside him!" Prove Goku was lying? Prove that he is in error? Prove the statement was concerning another instance?

You keep bringing up the "he is in a different class from those girls" bit but you failed to keep it in context. That was stated by Shin AFTER Elder Kai stated Goku is "exerting power beyond his limits" WHILE in RED!!!! Kale was TRADING BLOWS with this same stronger Red Goku, she never was on the ground grimacing in pain like Caulifla who was obviously losing and outmatched. Kale showed she was Blue level before and was on Goku's god level after he got stronger.

The stickers are an official product and Kale's rating being below Super Saiyan God and above Super Saiyan 3 is consistent with what was said and shown.

Of course the others would acknowledge, she was easily one of the strongest in the Tournament. Outside of Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, Hit, Toppo, Jiren and Dyspo....Kale was likely the strongest along with the likes of Gohan and the Namekians.

Goku was pushing himself. He'd recently been completely emptied of power, unable to even turn Super Saiyan at all but in real time he was quickly able to push himself through Super Saiyan 2, then 3, then God and then Blue. For some reason you're taking it as it meaning he was vastly more powerful than before though nobody ever said that. Unbelievable power is boiling inside him? Yeah? Isn't that what always happens in those forms?

There's nothing to prove really. Kale was said and shown to clearly be inferior to Super Saiyan God Goku though to a much smaller extent that Caulifla and nobody ever said that he'd randomly had a huge surge in power.

And then an official product backs this up, one that is pretty consistent and thought out.

[PFM18]

You're painting a distinction between the two that doesn't exist at all -- the greater the ki pressure, the greater the potential knockback depending on who (or which form) is affected.

No that distinction certainly exists. God Ki exhibits a "pressure" but the user inherently has far more control than a normal ki user. Hence, SSB producing significant knockback and environmental damage a grand total of zero times in Dragon Ball Super. I gave you an example of pressure being exerted where there is absolutely no knockback or environmental damage of any kind and you apparently were unable to provide a counterexample.

She specifically blindsided him in base twice, once with a clean hit to the back and then with a punch to the face that sent him flying.

You don't appear to be understanding how the phrase "blindsided" is being used in this context. Being blindsided does not literally just mean being hit from behind, that happens all the time in DB fights given their ability to fly and out-maneuver their opponent. I am referring to specifically being caught off guard and/or being hit in an unexpected way as a result of deception. As shown several times, Goku's defenses drop significantly upon letting his guard down and this happened when Kefla tricked him into thinking they were going to have a ki struggle but she instead sneaks behind him and kicks him from behind. Such a thing did not happen during Base Kefla vs SSG Goku.

And again, she was the stimulus because her power rivaled the spirit bomb, as Whis flat-out stated.

Dude, something has to give. She was stated to rival the Spirit Bomb but she was dominated by SSBKK Goku. So either the Spirit Bomb is weaker than SSBKK or she only loosely rivals the Spirit Bomb. I think it is obvious that the latter is far more reasonable.

[Marlowe89]

Whis literally says that SS Kefla's power rivaled the Genkidama. It's a clear cut as it can get.

Just to add to this: Super Saiyan 2 is only a two-fold boost from Super Saiyan, yet SS2 Kefla was on par with UIO Goku. If SS Kefla was only slightly stronger than SSB Goku, the multipliers wouldn't add up at all and Goku would be capable of flattening her even in her Super Saiyan 2 form with something as low as Kaioken x5. Obviously that's not the case.

Hence, SSB producing significant knockback and environmental damage a grand total of zero times in Dragon Ball Super.

False. Goku has produced significant knockback against other fighters with SSB's transformation multiple times during the tournament, and has done so in both the anime and manga. It's no different than what SS Kefla's transformation sequence did to the peanut gallery. Your previous example was irrelevant to that point, so I didn't address it.

You don't appear to be understanding how the phrase "blindsided" is being used in this context.

Wow. Seriously?

There's nothing remotely complicated about the phrase "blindside", and reducing it to an ultra specific context just demonstrates that you're attempting to twist the meaning of an incredibly basic word. This is complete nonsense.

I am referring to specifically being caught off guard and/or being hit in an unexpected way as a result of deception.

He was caught off-guard in the examples I provided. You're moving the goalposts by reducing it to a lone instance of Goku being deceived, which is ridiculous because there's no evidence that one specific example of an unexpected clean hit on an opponent would somehow cause more damage than a slightly different example of an unexpected clean hit on an opponent. It's the same thing. To pretend otherwise is clearly engaging in mind olympics, which is wasting my time.

Dude, something has to give. She was stated to rival the Spirit Bomb but she was dominated by SSBKK Goku.

Yeah, too bad she wasn't "dominated" by SSBKK Goku at all and clearly packed enough power to one-shot him with a single kick, which wasn't something he was capable of replicating despite managing to perform the same feat multiple times. There's no argument to be had here, and Whis clearly stated that her power rivals the spirit bomb which supports the situation surrounding their fight and directly confirms how strong she is while in Super Saiyan, i.e. far, far stronger than Blue.

Notice how every one of these arguments ends the same way -- you vs. explicit dialogue in the show. It's actually kind of amusing at this point, if I'm being completely honest.

[PFM18]

Another thing that contradicts his argument: Super Saiyan 2 is only a two-fold boost from Super Saiyan, yet SS2 Kefla was on par with UIO Goku. If SS Kefla was only slightly stronger than SSB Goku, the multipliers wouldn't add up at all and Goku would be capable of flattening her even in her Super Saiyan 2 form with something as low as Kaioken x5. Obviously that's not the case.

This entire paragraph ignores the fact that it was stated several times that Kefla's power was constantly growing at at a high rate during the fight. This is assuming that her power was static. (Obviously excluding transformations increasing power)

Oh, what do you know, you vs a direct statement from the show. Isn't that weird? I thought I was the only one that did that!

False. Goku has produced significant knockback against other fighters as a Super Saiyan Blue multiple times during the tournament, and has done so in both the anime and manga. Your previous example was irrelevant to that point, so I didn't address it.

I don't know what else to say other than you are just mistaken. This just never happened. (Notice how obviously vague you are being.) SSB exhibits exceptional ki control as a result of Whis's focus on training their ki control. Blue causing knockback and damage to the surrouding area like Kefla did defeats the entire purpose of the form of SSB. This renders your original comparison invalidated. You said that there is no distinction between knockback/environmental damage and the Godly "pressure" that is exhibited from God Ki. I showed an example from the show that shows this premise is false since Trunks comments on feeling a pressure but the surrounding area isn't damaged and he isn't knocked back in any way. Again, you failed to come up with a counterexample and instead vaguely mention times "during the tournament" that didn't actually happen.

Wow. Seriously?

There's nothing remotely complicated about the phrase "blindside", and reducing it to a very specific context just demonstrates that you're attempting to twist the meaning of an incredibly basic word. This is complete nonsense.

He was caught off-guard in the examples I provided. You're moving the goalposts by reducing it to a lone instance of Goku being deceived, which is ridiculous because there's no evidence that one specific example of an unexpected clean hit on an opponent would somehow cause more damage than a slightly different example of an unexpected clean hit on an opponent. It's the same thing. To pretend otherwise is clearly engaging in mind olympics, which is wasting my time.

The point is Goku wasn't caught off guard against Base Kefla like he was against SSJ Kefla. The show makes a clear distinction between being caught off guard and literally being hit in the back.(Hence the Sorbet laser) You don't seem to understand this distinction since you mentioned Goku just getting hit in the back. You either don't understand it or you are blatantly ignoring it.

Yeah, too bad she wasn't "dominated" by SSBKK Goku at all and clearly packed enough power to one-shot him with a single kick, which wasn't something he was capable of replicating despite managing to perform the same feat multiple times.

Yeah at this point I am not even convinced that you watched the entire fight. Goku goes Kaioken and immediately starts dominating her. He hit her once in the arm and pushed her back several feet before kicking her into rubble where she had trouble getting up. That is the extent of her "straight up" fight with SSBKK Goku. She got wrecked and she knew she was being wrecked so she used the fact that she had been repeating the same ki blasts barrage to her advantage and switched it up on Goku and he wasn't expecting it. That was the entire point of that scene. The scene was not there to show that Kefla is far stronger than Goku and can one-shot him like you are implying. That blatantly contradicts what had just happened a moment prior.

[Marlowe89]

Oh, what do you know, you vs a direct statement from the show. Isn't that weird? I thought I was the only one that did that!

Don't worry, you are. I never disputed those statements, because even the fight against base Kefla makes it clear that she was just growing accustomed to her power. Nothing mindblowing about that.

Seems to me that you're ultimately acknowledging Whis' statement. If SS2 Kefla was immediately said to be stronger than Goku's prior UIO state, SS Kefla would obviously be vastly stronger than SSB Goku beforehand. No avoiding this fact. Concession accepted, I guess.

I don't know what else to say other than you are just mistaken. This just never happened. (Notice how obviously vague you are being.)

Nothing vague about it. The pressure of Goku's transformation into Blue inflicted plenty of knockback towards Toppo, Nink, and Maji Kayo just to name a few. Likewise, SS Kefla's transformation sequence affected the peanut gallery in a similar way.

The point is Goku wasn't caught off guard against Base Kefla like he was against SSJ Kefla. The show makes a clear distinction between being caught off guard and literally being hit in the back.(Hence the Sorbet laser)

There is no distinction. Goku was caught off-guard with the same kind of attack in both situations. Sorbet's laser is a piercing attack, so it doesn't hold any relevance.

My post addressed your point entirely, which is that you're trying to force a contextual difference that doesn't exist. SSG Goku was blindsided more than once by base Kefla, once in particular by an attack that sent him flying, and he was still fighting just fine. SSBKK Goku was blindsided exactly one time by SS Kefla and was instantly knocked out. Your attempts at rationalizing this with mental gymnastics is absurd and isn't going to change what blatantly happened on-screen.

That was the entire point of that scene.

No, the point of the scene is exactly as Whis described it. Super Saiyan Kefla's power rivaled the spirit bomb, providing a stimulus that allowed Goku to break through his shell once more and activate Ultra Instinct. That all happened thanks to Kefla's kick, so it's obviously true that her power rivaled Universe 7's Genki Dama at that point.

[PFM18]

Seems to me that you're ultimately acknowledging Whis' statement. If SS2 Kefla was immediately said to be stronger than Goku's prior UIO state, SS Kefla would obviously be vastly stronger than SSB Goku beforehand. No avoiding this fact. Concession accepted, I guess.

Yes, obviously I am. The common notion is that SSJ Kefla during the fight initially when Goku turned SSB Goku was simultaneously as strong as the Spirit Bomb per Whis's statement despite fighting evenly with Goku trading blows and going even in a ki blast struggle. This just doesn't make sense since she got wrecked by SSBKK goku initially and the Spirit Bomb should be relative to SSBKKx20 atleast. Kefla's power was climbing and climbing dramatically throughout the fight and she goes SSJ2 on top of her improved SSJ power and by that point she was far beyond anything SSBKK could output and on par with UI Omen. But prior to that in the early goings of her SSJ form she is inferior to SSBKK and slightly stronger than SSB.

Nothing vague about it. The pressure of Goku's transformation into Blue inflicted plenty of knockback towards Toppo, Nink, and Maji Kayo just to name a few. Likewise, SS Kefla's transformation sequence affected the peanut gallery in a similar way.

These are poor examples of what you are trying to argue to say the least. Goku goes SSB gains strength and is able to break out of Toppo's grip. The audience doesn't feel any knockback they don't have to brace themselves or anything of the like. Toppo isn't even affected outside of not being able to maintain his grip on Goku. Maji Koyo's situation was pretty much identical to this.

there is no distinction. Goku was caught off-guard with the same kind of attack in both situations. Sorbet's laser is a piercing attack, so it doesn't hold any relevance.

What? Sorbet's laser is a "piercing attack" and so suddenly it is irrelevant? Are you trying to say Sorbet's laser is actually a potent attack? Well, it isn't. Goku was just caught off guard like he was against Kefla here.

No, the point of the scene is exactly as Whis described it. Super Saiyan Kefla's power rivaled the spirit bomb, providing a stimulus that allowed Goku to break through his shell once more and activate Ultra Instinct. That all happened thanks to Kefla's kick, so it's obviously true that her power rivaled Universe 7's Genki Dama at that point.

Either her power was accelerating much faster than I thought and she gained a massive boost during this time and she was actually as strong as the Spirit Bomb, or the Spirit Bomb comment by Whis wasn't meant to be taken literally and she was on the same general level of the Spirit Bomb but still weaker than it and was able to overcome the difference in power between her and Goku by using deception.(I think the latter case is more reasonable but either works fairly well.) In either case, the initial clash between SSB Goku and SSJ Kefla was similar to the clash between SSG and Base implying that the two transformations have similar boosts over their respective forms. This is corroborated when Goku goes SSBKK and goes from being at a slight disadvantage to dominating her. In either case, I acknowledge Whis's statement with either interpretation while also addressing Kefla being at a disadvantage against SSBKK initially. I never just blatantly ignored Whis's statement I was just saying I thought it was more meant to compare the UI triggers than to say she is literally exactly the same power as the Genki Dama.

[ZombieVito]

So are you guys going to ignore that Goku clearly uses a higher form of Kaioken than the regular one? He and Kefla clearly power up before the match ends.

[PFM18]

So are you guys going to ignore that Goku clearly uses a higher form of Kaioken than the regular one? He and Kefla clearly power up before the match ends.

The level of Kaioken is left completely ambiguous. Kefla manages to draw out more power and Goku uses some undesignated higher level of Kaioken.

[Marlowe89]

The audience doesn't feel any knockback they don't have to brace themselves or anything of the like.

Right, which is why Kefla's knockback from her transformation was much greater than Goku's knockback from his, and also partially why the audience members were so amazed by her power from the very start. Thanks for accentuating my point. Those aren't "poor examples" of anything, they're exactly what happened.

What? Sorbet's laser is a "piercing attack" and so suddenly it is irrelevant? Are you trying to say Sorbet's laser is actually a potent attack?

Yes, piercing attacks can obviously be much deadlier than blunt attacks against unsuspecting opponents and even require less force. In other news, water is wet.

Still doesn't change the fact that there's absolutely no contextual difference whatsoever between base Kefla blindsiding SSG Goku and SS Kefla blindsiding SSBKK Goku with the same kind of attack.

In either case, the initial clash between SSB Goku and SSJ Kefla was similar to the clash between SSG and Base implying that the two transformations have similar boosts over their respective forms.

It doesn't really imply that at all since Kefla was still acclimating to her strength. Goku went SSB, told base Kefla that it'd be bad if he held back against her anymore, then she transformed into Super Saiyan, followed by the audience bracing themselves against her ki and Champa saying that she could easily beat Goku in Blue because he underestimated her power in that form. They briefly clash and then a single ki blast from her end forces Goku to use Kaioken, with Whis reiterating that he'd need Kaioken to combat the "terrifying" power of Super Saiyan Kefla.

The dialogue couldn't possibly be any more obvious and clear-cut when it comes to demonstrating how much closer SS Kefla is to SSBKK than SSB, and there's not one iota of evidence that would suggest the gap between them remained the same. Momentarily exchanging fists doesn't indicate that she wasn't vastly superior as the episode clearly establishes.

[ZombieVito]

So are you guys going to ignore that Goku clearly uses a higher form of Kaioken than the regular one? He and Kefla clearly power up before the match ends.

The level of Kaioken is left completely ambiguous. Kefla manages to draw out more power and Goku uses some undesignated higher level of Kaioken.

While true, Whis confirms SS Kefla = Genkidama so that means Goku used KKx20.

[PFM18]

So are you guys going to ignore that Goku clearly uses a higher form of Kaioken than the regular one? He and Kefla clearly power up before the match ends.

The level of Kaioken is left completely ambiguous. Kefla manages to draw out more power and Goku uses some undesignated higher level of Kaioken.

While true, Whis confirms SS Kefla = Genkidama so that means Goku used KKx20.

He probably starts at some other Kaioken and ultimately ends at KKx20. He does clearly go further in the Kaioken levels and Kefla also powers up.

[PFM18]

Right, which is why Kefla's knockback from her transformation was much greater than Goku's knockback from his, and also partially why the audience members were so amazed by her power from the very start. Thanks for accentuating my point. Those aren't "poor examples" of anything, they're exactly what happened.

Alright well at this point you are confused. Let me break it down for you.

You claim that Kefla's SSJ transformation producing more knockback to the surrounding is an indication that she is stronger than SSB Goku since Goku's transformation didn't produce as much/any knockback. I explained to you that Goku not provoking any environmental damage or knockback is a result of the SSB itself because of the superior Ki control. As a result Goku nevers show any significant environmental damage to the surrounding area/knock once in the entire series and so this cannot be used as a viable way to gauge his power. You claim that there are plenty of instances where this happens when Goku transforms into SSB, and I ask for an example. The examples you give are literally just Goku using SSB to get out of a choke hold and I explain there's no knockback and/or environmental damage in any of these scenes. Then you inconspicuously claim that this proves/accentuates your point, even though it contradicts the very thing you were originally trying to show.

Point is, this comparison you make about the effects on the surrounding area between SSJ Kefla and SSB Goku's respective transformations completely ignores the differences between the forms and the precedent set in the rest of the series.

Yes, piercing attacks can obviously be much deadlier than blunt attacks against unsuspecting opponents and even require less force. In other news, water is wet.

Seriously? Lasers/Guns have been completely irrelevant in terms of their attack potency for a very long time. Even in the Namek Arc similar lasers were useless. This is not a "potent piercing attack" like you seem to imply.

This is strictly an example of Goku letting his guard down and it is analagous to Goku letting his guard down against Kefla.

Still doesn't change the fact that there's absolutely no contextual difference whatsoever between base Kefla blindsiding SSG Goku and SS Kefla blindsiding SSBKK Goku with the same kind of attack.

Except, ya know, there's absolutely no indication that Goku let his guard down. No deception, nothing. Kefla just got behind him. In SSBKK vs SSJ Kefla deceives Goku making him think that they are going to go into yet another ki blast clash and Goku buys the decoy, but instead she flies behind Goku and kicks him in the back. Goku says "that won't work this time" and fires a KHH as though she is going to continue throwing out ki blasts like she had been doing.

Furthermore, in the SSBKK vs SSJ scene Goku was using ya know that one technique that drains your stamina so naturally he took more damage.

Momentarily exchanging fists doesn't indicate that she wasn't vastly superior as the episode clearly establishes.

"This happening doesn't indicate exactly what it obviously implies!"

You have failed to address how SSJ Kefla could be vastly superior and equal to the Genki Dama initially when:

-Goku trades blows with Kefla showing no advantage on either side.
-They throw Ki blasts at each other and they dissipate causing neither damage indicating a draw.
-Goku goes Kaioken and then gets two huge hits in without being touched and it results in Kefla having difficulty to so much as get up and Champa immediately loses faith in Kefla's chances.

In what world does that make sense?

In regards to her kicking Goku once and knocking him out:

Either her power was increasing extremely quickly and she gained a massive boost during this time and she was actually as strong as the Spirit Bomb only in the whaning moments of the fight where she forces Goku to go Kaioken and knocks him out with one kick, or the Spirit Bomb comment by Whis wasn't meant to be taken literally and she was on the same general level of the Spirit Bomb but still weaker than it and was able to overcome the difference in power between her and SSBKK Goku by using deception.

^ Is how I have chosen to address that sequence of events rather than your approach of just completely ignoring them and/or saying "Just because that happened doesn't mean anything!!!11"

[Marlowe89]

The examples you give are literally just Goku using SSB to get out of a choke hold and I explain there's no knockback and/or environmental damage in any of these scenes.

You didn't explain anything. The impact of his transformation visibly knocked them back, sometimes further than others depending on the character, and that's how he escaped from their chokehold in each of those scenes. Your claim that Blue's ki control somehow wouldn't produce as much of a knockback effect as other transformations was never stated in the series at all and is pure headcanon on your part. If all you've got are assumptions, your point isn't worth responding to.

It does accentuate my point. If Blue's same knockback effect couldn't reach the audience or cause any environmental damage, and if the audience specifically commented on how amazing Kefla's power was while they were bracing themselves, the intention of the scene is perfectly clear. SS Kefla >>> SSB Goku.

Lasers/Guns have been completely irrelevant in terms of their attack potency for a very long time.

Apparently not Sorbet's. In any case, I'm not really interested in continuing this part of the discussion over the specifics of piercing damage just because you're utterly incapable of understanding basic physics. It's not worth my time and is besides the point either way.

Kefla just got behind him.

She "just got behind him" in both situations, so there's no contextual difference at all. She blindsided him both times, and there's nothing in the scene that would indicate Goku somehow being more vulnerable in SSB than in SSG. Whether she deceived him has nothing to do with how much of Goku's guard was down because he was physically defenseless in every example I just mentioned, so that's irrelevant. This is a laughable attempt at shifting goalposts because your point was previously refuted. Pretty hard to take it seriously.

"This happening doesn't indicate exactly what it obviously implies!"

A brief exchange of fists doesn't indicate or imply that Kefla only had a slight edge against Goku or was anywhere closer to SSB's ballpark than SSBKK's, since that happens constantly in DBS even between characters with large gaps between them, and Whis flat-out stated the exact opposite when he declared that Kaioken was necessary to combat the "terrifying power of Super Saiyan Kefla".

Is how I have chosen to address that sequence of events

Which is speculative, unfounded, and completely at odds with the actual dialogue. You're only addressing the sequence of events in that way so you can try to uphold the (flatly disproven) notion that the gap between SS Kefla and SSB Goku remained the same even though it clearly didn't at any point.

The sequence of events unambiguously establishes that Kefla in her Super Saiyan form was closer to Blue Kaioken than Blue by itself, even as early as when Goku first activated Kaioken during the match. "Just because that happened doesn't mean anything!!!11" is definitely a good way of paraphrasing your whole approach to these arguments in general, since you and dialogue apparenty don't mix.