My original point still stands, regardless of how anyone interprets those moments.ABED wrote:Cell wasn't a match for Gohan anyways. He didn't let Gohan get beat up. Gohan was the only one that could defeat Cell. He doesn't help release Buu, his energy was taken in a fight, and he couldn't just defeat Buu with a single blow. SS3 takes energy. And once again, the issue is made murky because Toriyama doesn't plan ahead thus plot holes like why Goku would fight Vegeta when there were more important things at stake.Goku gives Cell a Senzu, lets his son get beat up, helps release Buu, and doesn't beat Buu when he had the chance? Oh well. That's Goku, for you.
Unpopular DB opinions
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thatdbzguy
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Khalid Shahin wrote:Yeah, pretty much sums the show up right there.Dragon Soul Funimation Lyrics wrote:Nothing ever dies; we will rise again!
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ABED
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
He could've one shotted Vegeta but that's only in retrospect when it's revealed he can turn SS3. It's doubtful Toriyama thought of that.Okay, BS. He fights Vegeta even when he doesn't need to leading to Buu's release, when he easily could've one-shotted Vegeta at any time. SS3 takes energy, but Goku was far ahead of Fat Buu and admitted himself he could've won their fight if he actually tried. This issue isn't murky at all, Toriyama explicitly outlined Goku's character and gave explanations for why he did these things, even if he didn't need to (e.g. he didn't need to have Goku be superior to Fat Buu, Fat Buu didn't exist anymore).
We don't know how far ahead he was. Toriyama didn't outline anything, he tried to cover up faulty storytelling.
I'm not interpreting those moments. They're there for anyone to see. Gohan was the only one that could defeat Cell.My original point still stands, regardless of how anyone interprets those moments.
Many of the best villains are the opposite of their heroes, e.g. Joker, Lex Luthor, Professor Moriarty, Sensui, Vince McMahon.Tullece: He's okay, I guess. Literally just an anti-Goku.
Last edited by ABED on Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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thatdbzguy
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
I was more referring to your statements about the Buu saga stuff. Considering how both you and RandomGuy are at a disagreement right now about them, I think you yourself can see how interpretation plays a part.ABED wrote:I'm not interpreting those moments. They're there for anyone to see. Gohan was the only one that could defeat Cell.My original point still stands, regardless of how anyone interprets those moments.
That's all fine and dandy, but he still doesn't really do much for me.ABED wrote:Many of the best villains are the opposite of their heroes, e.g. Joker, Lex Luthor, Professor Moriarty, Sensui, Vince McMahon.
Last edited by thatdbzguy on Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Khalid Shahin wrote:Yeah, pretty much sums the show up right there.Dragon Soul Funimation Lyrics wrote:Nothing ever dies; we will rise again!
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
And why would he ignore an awesome fight with an awesome fighter?ABED wrote:He could've one shotted Vegeta but that's only in retrospect when it's revealed he can turn SS3.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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TheGmGoken
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Well some things would be an understatement. He also bores me to death. Don't see what's so great about him. He destroys planet for a living. He's a fun person to be with. Very...amusingYou hate him because he has some things in common with Buu?
. Not to mention un-original.All I needed to hear. You like Goten. Good choice. Goten is the greatest of all time.Goten: Nothing really against him. He's just kind of there. He can be sort of cute sometimes, I guess.
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ABED
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
How is it an awesome fight when it's a complete lie, and it wasn't a great time for that.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:And why would he ignore an awesome fight with an awesome fighter?ABED wrote:He could've one shotted Vegeta but that's only in retrospect when it's revealed he can turn SS3.
Last edited by ABED on Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Just because Goku held back a transformation doesn't stop an awesome fight from being an awesome fight.ABED wrote:How is it an awesome fight when it's a complete lie,
We are talking about Goku right now.ABED wrote:and this isn't a great time for that.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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ABED
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
It wasn't an awesome fight to him, he was lying to himself. What about Goku would make you think he would put a lie above the fate of the world? Goku wants to fight strong guys. He doesn't want to hold back in order to fight them.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Just because Goku held back a transformation doesn't stop an awesome fight from being an awesome fight.ABED wrote:How is it an awesome fight when it's a complete lie,
We are talking about Goku right now.ABED wrote:and this isn't a great time for that.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
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RandomGuy96
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
And that matters how?He could've one shotted Vegeta but that's only in retrospect when it's revealed he can turn SS3. It's doubtful Toriyama thought of that.
We don't know how far ahead he was. Toriyama didn't outline anything, he tried to cover up faulty storytelling.
SS3 Goku never needed to exist. Goku never needed to be able to beat Fat Buu. Toriyama inserted both of these things just to say something about Goku's character, as there was no plot hole to plug.
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
If we remove the "I could have beaten Buu the first time" line, what does it even change? Pure Buu is weaker than Fat Buu?
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
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ABED
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Do I have to spell it out for you? Toriyama didn't think ahead so there are plenty of inconsistencies, such as Goku fighting Vegeta when it makes no sense for him to, then saying "I can't defeat Buu." but later on saying he lied despite saying flat out that even if he could he shouldn't. There are plot holes, gaping ones. You like to hate on Goku, and thus anything you can latch onto that proves that you're "right", you will.RandomGuy96 wrote:And that matters how?He could've one shotted Vegeta but that's only in retrospect when it's revealed he can turn SS3. It's doubtful Toriyama thought of that.
We don't know how far ahead he was. Toriyama didn't outline anything, he tried to cover up faulty storytelling.
SS3 Goku never needed to exist. Goku never needed to be able to beat Fat Buu. Toriyama inserted both of these things just to say something about Goku's character, as there was no plot hole to plug.
Why would Goku intentionally let Majin Buu free if he didn't intend to stop him? How is that in any way congruent with his character?
Big surprise, Toriyama doesn't plan ahead!
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
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RandomGuy96
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Have any proof of any of that...? Hell, even if you did, why would it matter?ABED wrote:Do I have to spell it out for you? Toriyama didn't think ahead so there are plenty of inconsistencies, such as Goku fighting Vegeta when it makes no sense for him to, then saying "I can't defeat Buu." but later on saying he lied despite saying flat out that even if he could he shouldn't. There are plot holes, gaping ones. You like to hate on Goku, and thus anything you can latch onto that proves that you're "right", you will.RandomGuy96 wrote:And that matters how?He could've one shotted Vegeta but that's only in retrospect when it's revealed he can turn SS3. It's doubtful Toriyama thought of that.
We don't know how far ahead he was. Toriyama didn't outline anything, he tried to cover up faulty storytelling.
SS3 Goku never needed to exist. Goku never needed to be able to beat Fat Buu. Toriyama inserted both of these things just to say something about Goku's character, as there was no plot hole to plug.
Big surprise, Toriyama doesn't plan ahead!
Err, no, they're aren't. Nothing would have changed if he had Goku unable to defeat Fat Buu and unable to go SS3. Those things served no purpose other than saying something about Goku.
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Saiyans enjoy fighting strong guys, and SS2 Vegeta was a strong guy to SS2 Goku. Goku holding back a transformation instead of a portion of his current power isn't the same thing. Not that it wouldn't excite him even more if the opponent was SS3 level. And if you want to take BoG into account, Goku was excited with someone on SS3 level, even though he had SSGod at that point.ABED wrote:It wasn't an awesome fight to him, he was lying to himself.
He did that later by saying that he wasn't strong enough to beat Boo, even though he was, and risked the fate of the world by entrusting it to the kids. And if Gohan had never released Rou Kaioshin, then the universe would be destroyed.ABED wrote:What about Goku would make you think he would put a lie above the fate of the world?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Has Goku ever held back outside of the Buu arc? I think he held back against Kuririn in the 22nd Budokai.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
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TheGmGoken
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
He held back against Ten at the 23 Tenkaichi Budokai. To a degree. He wasn't using full power.Kid Buu wrote:Has Goku ever held back outside of the Buu arc? I think he held back against Kuririn in the 22nd Budokai.
Also if I re-call. Goku says he got "fighting power" and "Tenkaichi Budokai" power.
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Oh yeah and against Chichi too. The instant he got serious, he beat her in one hit.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
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ABED
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
I get that Goku does do questionable things like let villains go, but he doesn't do so with the intention of having other people clean up his mess, and he doesn't lie like that. He's upfront with Piccolo about the living being the ones to defend their world, so why lie about not being able to defeat Buu? What does he gain?DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Saiyans enjoy fighting strong guys, and SS2 Vegeta was a strong guy to SS2 Goku. Goku holding back a transformation instead of a portion of his current power isn't the same thing. Not that it wouldn't excite him even more if the opponent was SS3 level. And if you want to take BoG into account, Goku was excited with someone on SS3 level, even though he had SSGod at that point.ABED wrote:It wasn't an awesome fight to him, he was lying to himself.
He did that later by saying that he wasn't strong enough to beat Boo, even though he was, and risked the fate of the world by entrusting it to the kids. And if Gohan had never released Rou Kaioshin, then the universe would be destroyed.ABED wrote:What about Goku would make you think he would put a lie above the fate of the world?
Holding back a transformation is the same thing. Goku's body language wasn't that of joy, it was of grim determination.
But Kuririn wasn't really his rival, plus it was a spectator sport. Tenshinhan and Piccolo in the final round were completely different. He didn't hold back.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
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thatdbzguy
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Here's yet another unpopular opinion:
I don't care AT ALL about power in this series. I don't care about power levels, I don't care about how inconsistent someone's power is, I don't care about who could beat who, I don't care about the whole Goku vs Superman debacle, etc.
I just find it to be such a boring topic, even for a fighting series.
I don't care AT ALL about power in this series. I don't care about power levels, I don't care about how inconsistent someone's power is, I don't care about who could beat who, I don't care about the whole Goku vs Superman debacle, etc.
I just find it to be such a boring topic, even for a fighting series.
Khalid Shahin wrote:Yeah, pretty much sums the show up right there.Dragon Soul Funimation Lyrics wrote:Nothing ever dies; we will rise again!
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jpdbzrulz4sure
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
You and me both, man.thatdbzguy wrote:Here's yet another unpopular opinion:
I don't care AT ALL about power in this series. I don't care about power levels, I don't care about how inconsistent someone's power is, I don't care about who could beat who, I don't care about the whole Goku vs Superman debacle, etc.
I just find it to be such a boring topic, even for a fighting series.
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DragonBoxZTheMovies
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
OK, so I was watching DBZ Movie 8 recently...and I think it's now my favourite film. 
Japanese or English, I just find this movie really fun and when I really think about it, it ticks a lot of the boxes for what I personally want to see in a DB film.
- Features a variety of new settings. CHECK!
- Features characters in situations that you don't usually see in the series. CHECK!
- Has a nice balance between humour and action. CHECK!
I could list more, but I'm lazy
I have a bit of a history with this movie (it's really not that interesting), and I'm pretty sure I've made a post about it somewhere on this forum in the past. I'll happily re-produce something similar here if anyone wants me to, but as mentioned above, I'm feeling a little lazy right now.
Also, Paragus's flashbacks...freakin' awesome!
Japanese or English, I just find this movie really fun and when I really think about it, it ticks a lot of the boxes for what I personally want to see in a DB film.
- Features a variety of new settings. CHECK!
- Features characters in situations that you don't usually see in the series. CHECK!
- Has a nice balance between humour and action. CHECK!
I could list more, but I'm lazy
I have a bit of a history with this movie (it's really not that interesting), and I'm pretty sure I've made a post about it somewhere on this forum in the past. I'll happily re-produce something similar here if anyone wants me to, but as mentioned above, I'm feeling a little lazy right now.
Also, Paragus's flashbacks...freakin' awesome!