Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

Except he couldn't outlast him. Gotenks completely stomped him in a few minutes and was about to kill him before the fusion wore off. If he wasted just a little less time announcing his attacks earlier, or hell, if he wasted less time bragging about he was going to kill Buu at that moment, Buu would've been toast. And I don't see how Buu's statement overrides statements from Goten, Trunks, Gotenks, Piccolo, Goku, and Gohan, or the fight itself, which was very one sided.

I don't think it was a big increase at all, because Goku had to actually question whether or not Buu was even getting stronger. If Buu gained a lot of strength, he would have just immediately known and been crapping his pants. Also, logically, his power should be suppressed by Grand Kaioshin in the same way his evil was suppressed- and as we can see, Super Buu's evil wasn't exactly suppressed. At the moment I have:

Super Buu- 100,000,000,000
---Mouth Blast- 125,000,000,000
--Buff Buu- 110,000,000,000

Gotenks-
-Super Saiyan- 17,000,000,000
-Super Saiyan 3- 136,000,000,000

Kid Buu- 45,000,000,000

South Kaioshin- 65,000,000,000

Maybe Super Buu should be at least 80% of Gotenks, I don't know... I just figure that if he was that close, he should've been able to manage something hand to hand against an unskilled and arrogant opponent. Vegeta put up a better fight against Recoome than Buu did against Gotenks. He did more damage and landed more hits.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I'd say Buff Buu is less than twice as strong, that's for sure. I'd argue about 1.5x stronger.

[RandomGuy96]

If Buff Buu was strong enough to stomp his previous self, I'd think it would be more noticeable, and Grand Kaioshin's influence would suppress both his power and his evil like with Fat Buu, rather than just a huge chunk of his power.

[dbzfan7]

Except he couldn't outlast him. Gotenks completely stomped him in a few minutes and was about to kill him before the fusion wore off. If he wasted just a little less time announcing his attacks earlier, or hell, if he wasted less time bragging about he was going to kill Buu at that moment, Buu would've been toast. And I don't see how Buu's statement overrides statements from Goten, Trunks, Gotenks, Piccolo, Goku, and Gohan, or the fight itself, which was very one sided.

All that happened was a head butt from Gotenks, a throw from Super Boo, Super Boo turning into a ball and destroying the lookout, Gotenks spiking Boo into the earth, and then Boo being told that Gotenks fusion wouldn't last long where Super Boo realizes the fusion is timed and that he would need to absorb them to beat Gohan. After that is when Gotenks stomped. Super Boo states he had to wait for Gotenks to defuse and refuse. Super Boo had to stall Gotenks and wait for the opportunity to absorb him. So everything after his realization was him not trying to kill Gotenks. If Super Boo showed he could equal or surpass Gotenks then the boys wouldn't fuse again. By taking a beating he could get the boys to believe they could win so he could trick them into getting absorbed. Piccolo says he didn't really take any damage physically and Goku statement is said when Super Boo isn't trying to beat the boys. Goten and Trunks are terrible when it comes to reliability. They way overestimate themselves.

[RandomGuy96]

I just don't consider Super Buu a reliable enough source of information to override everything else- in fact, I consider him only a slightly more reliable source than Trunks. He certainly looked pretty pissed when he attacked Gotenks after Gotenks showered him in ki blasts, so I believe he was using his full effort there, and not just letting himself get beaten up and almost killed. Also, Gohan, who certainly knew Buu's power, had no problem with letting Gotenks fight him (notably, the boys' ability to sense ki should mean that they saw Buu use his full effort there too, and it was never noted to be different than the power he used against them). And even before that, Gotenks' superiority seemed clear IMO; Buu could only throw Gotenks once and failed to land a single hit. In turn, Gotenks headbutted him, trapped him in the donuts, knocked him around, blasted him into the Earth, and hit him with a bunch of ki blasts. It never really seemed like Buu was on par with him.

[dbzfan7]

I just don't consider Super Buu a reliable enough source of information to override everything else- in fact, I consider him only a slightly more reliable source than Trunks. He certainly looked pretty pissed when he attacked Gotenks after Gotenks showered him in ki blasts, so I believe he was using his full effort there, and not just letting himself get beaten up. Also, Gohan, who certainly knew Buu's power, had no problem with letting Gotenks fight him (notably, the boys' ability to sense ki should mean that they saw Buu use his full effort there too, and it was never noted to be different than the power he used against them). And even before that, Gotenks' superiority seemed clear IMO; Buu could only throw Gotenks once and failed to land a single hit. In turn, Gotenks headbutted him, trapped him in the donuts, knocked him around, blasted him into the Earth, and hit him with a bunch of ki blasts. It never really seemed like Buu was on par with him.

Gohan can jump in at anytime to help Gotenks if he were to be in trouble. He also already heard Gotenks was doing well against Super Boo so he knows Gotenks is capable of beating Boo. And since Gohan has no knowledge of Boo's absorption he thought it would be fine to let the boys try and beat Boo. Boo is still going to be pissed that someone even rivals him. Piccolo even states this. I believe Gotenks is superior, just not by enough to defeat Super Boo in time if he went all out. Though Gotenks could obliterate Boo if he gets a good enough opportunity or actually thought of something clever. The reason Super Boo didn't do too much to Gotenks was because he was stalling. He said so when he talked to Gohan. He also underestimated Gotenks greatly which is why during his fight with Gotenks he would be surprised by Gotenks counter attacks. He probably didn't expect the boys to be a bit stronger then him. All villains have big egos when it comes to their power. So even though he knew Gotenks was formidable, he didn't know that Gotenks was actually his equal or greater.

Gotenks could beat Super Boo if he just weren't so cocky and stupid. If he focused and used his brains to create opportunities to obliterate Boo, he probably could win in his time limit. I'd say if he could trap Boo in the volley ball thing and then blast him he would win. But Boo at this point knows of the technique and could avoid it. So if Gotenks could land the technique on Boo again (and if Boo didn't have a way to escape the ball sooner) and shoot a Kamehameha full power, then Gotenks would win.

[Mjb1985]

Super Buu seemed to be doing fine in hand to hand against Gotenks initially. The volleyball thing was legit. But after that, Gotenks tells Super Buu about his fusion limits, which completely shocks Super Buu. From then on out, it's a complete whooping from Gotenks.

Considering that Super Buu is smart enough to know Gohan is superior to him, it makes perfect sense for him to go easy on Gotenks to lure him into another battle.

Great gameplanning on Super Buu's part. He knew the boys would feel extremely confident in going up against him again and his plan worked.

[dbzfan7]

Super Buu seemed to be doing fine in hand to hand against Gotenks initially. The volleyball thing was legit. But after that, Gotenks tells Super Buu about his fusion limits, which completely shocks Super Buu. From then on out, it's a complete whooping from Gotenks.

Considering that Super Buu is smart enough to know Gohan is superior to him, it makes perfect sense for him to go easy on Gotenks to lure him into another battle.

Great gameplanning on Super Buu's part. He knew the boys would feel extremely confident in going up against him again and his plan worked.

I believe if the boys actually formed a good strategy they could obliterate Boo (I mentioned one above). But since they are so cocky, they don't use the potential they have. Super Boo also underestimated the boys as they one upped him a lot even though he was stalling. I believe in most cases Super Boo would outlast Gotenks if he went all out. If Gotenks actually used his brains and created strategies to overcome Boo's regeneration then he would win in most cases.

[RandomGuy96]

Gohan can jump in at anytime to help Gotenks if he were to be in trouble. He also already heard Gotenks was doing well against Super Boo so he knows Gotenks is capable of beating Boo. And since Gohan has no knowledge of Boo's absorption he thought it would be fine to let the boys try and beat Boo. Boo is still going to be pissed that someone even rivals him. Piccolo even states this. I believe Gotenks is superior, just not by enough to defeat Super Boo in time if he went all out. Though Gotenks could obliterate Boo if he gets a good enough opportunity or actually thought of something clever. The reason Super Boo didn't do too much to Gotenks was because he was stalling. He said so when he talked to Gohan. He also underestimated Gotenks greatly which is why during his fight with Gotenks he would be surprised by Gotenks counter attacks. He probably didn't expect the boys to be a bit stronger then him. All villains have big egos when it comes to their power. So even though he knew Gotenks was formidable, he didn't know that Gotenks was actually his equal or greater.

Gotenks could beat Super Boo if he just weren't so cocky and stupid. If he focused and used his brains to create opportunities to obliterate Boo, he probably could win in his time limit. I'd say if he could trap Boo in the volley ball thing and then blast him he would win. But Boo at this point knows of the technique and could avoid it. So if Gotenks could land the technique on Boo again (and if Boo didn't have a way to escape the ball sooner) and shoot a Kamehameha full power, then Gotenks would win.

Fair point on Gohan being able to help Gotenks if things get out of control.

If Buu was so pissed, he would still have no reason to just there and let said 'rival' kick the crap out of him. He would at least try to make the person who humiliated him suffer. But no, he 'lets' Gotenks dominate him.

He WAS superior enough to kill him before the time ran out... that was what he was going to do before the SS3 wore off (because he just stood there and bragged).

He may have underestimated him at first, but after Gotenks knocks him around and spikes him into the Earth he should know who he's dealing with. He can also sense ki. If anything Gotenks wasn't the one who was taking Buu seriously, since he kept screwing around and flamboyantly announcing his attacks. When he got serious, he obliterated Buu.

If "Buu has a big ego" is your reasoning for why he lost to Gotenks, then why does this only apply here and not when he says that he's stronger than Gotenks later? And if he has a huge ego, then why does his word mean more than Goten's, who has a arguably smaller ego?

Gotenks didn't need intelligence. He was outright overpowering Buu, and if he had wasted just a few less seconds bragging and calling his attacks, he easily could've ended Buu right there.

Super Buu seemed to be doing fine in hand to hand against Gotenks initially. The volleyball thing was legit. But after that, Gotenks tells Super Buu about his fusion limits, which completely shocks Super Buu. From then on out, it's a complete whooping from Gotenks.

I disagree. If anything he seemed to do better after the volley ball sequence. Before that, he didn't land a single hit, while Gotenks head butted him, trapped him in a ball, knocked the ball around, knocked him into the Earth (blowing him up in the process), and nailed him with a bunch of ki blasts. After that he got serious and actually landed two hits.

Considering that Super Buu is smart enough to know Gohan is superior to him, it makes perfect sense for him to go easy on Gotenks to lure him into another battle.

Again, I disagree. I don't see why that one statement from Super Buu should override everything else. He seemed pretty pissed, and Piccolo said he would use his full effort. Piccolo wouldn't really have a way of knowing, but IMO he was depicted as using his full power in that fight. Gohan also says:

Chapter: 498 (DBZ 304), P1.3, P2.4
Context: after Gohan beats up on Boo
Gohan: “You can’t win…”
[ ]
Gohan: “I see…So you tried testing your power just to be sure, and I really was above you…That’s too bad, Majin Boo.”

...again suggesting that he was using full power against Gotenks.

Great gameplanning on Super Buu's part. He knew the boys would feel extremely confident in going up against him again and his plan worked.

Indeed, but I really, really disagree with the notion that Buu was letting himself get beaten and so that whole fight is moot. It looked to me he was trying to go toe to toe with Gotenks and failing miserably.

[RandomGuy96]

Gohan can jump in at anytime to help Gotenks if he were to be in trouble. He also already heard Gotenks was doing well against Super Boo so he knows Gotenks is capable of beating Boo. And since Gohan has no knowledge of Boo's absorption he thought it would be fine to let the boys try and beat Boo. Boo is still going to be pissed that someone even rivals him. Piccolo even states this. I believe Gotenks is superior, just not by enough to defeat Super Boo in time if he went all out. Though Gotenks could obliterate Boo if he gets a good enough opportunity or actually thought of something clever. The reason Super Boo didn't do too much to Gotenks was because he was stalling. He said so when he talked to Gohan. He also underestimated Gotenks greatly which is why during his fight with Gotenks he would be surprised by Gotenks counter attacks. He probably didn't expect the boys to be a bit stronger then him. All villains have big egos when it comes to their power. So even though he knew Gotenks was formidable, he didn't know that Gotenks was actually his equal or greater.

Gotenks could beat Super Boo if he just weren't so cocky and stupid. If he focused and used his brains to create opportunities to obliterate Boo, he probably could win in his time limit. I'd say if he could trap Boo in the volley ball thing and then blast him he would win. But Boo at this point knows of the technique and could avoid it. So if Gotenks could land the technique on Boo again (and if Boo didn't have a way to escape the ball sooner) and shoot a Kamehameha full power, then Gotenks would win.

Fair point on Gohan being able to help Gotenks if things get out of control.

If Buu was so pissed, he would still have no reason to just there and let said 'rival' kick the crap out of him. He would at least try to make the person who humiliated him suffer. But no, he 'lets' Gotenks dominate him.

He WAS superior enough to kill him before the time ran out... that was what he was going to do before the SS3 wore off (because he just stood there and bragged).

He may have underestimated him at first, but after Gotenks knocks him around and spikes him into the Earth he should know who he's dealing with. He can also sense ki. If anything Gotenks was the one who wasn't taking his opponent seriously, since he kept screwing around and flamboyantly announcing his attacks. When he got serious, he obliterated Buu.

If "Buu has a big ego" is your reasoning for why he lost to Gotenks, then why does this only apply here and not when he says that he's stronger than Gotenks later? And if he has a huge ego, then why does his word mean more than Goten's, who has a arguably smaller ego?

Gotenks didn't need intelligence. He was outright overpowering Buu, and if he had wasted just a few less seconds bragging and calling his attacks, he easily could've ended Buu right there.

Super Buu seemed to be doing fine in hand to hand against Gotenks initially. The volleyball thing was legit. But after that, Gotenks tells Super Buu about his fusion limits, which completely shocks Super Buu. From then on out, it's a complete whooping from Gotenks.

I disagree. If anything he seemed to do better after the volley ball sequence. Before that, he didn't land a single hit, while Gotenks head butted him, trapped him in a ball, knocked the ball around, knocked him into the Earth (blowing him up in the process), and nailed him with a bunch of ki blasts. After that he got serious and actually landed two hits.

Considering that Super Buu is smart enough to know Gohan is superior to him, it makes perfect sense for him to go easy on Gotenks to lure him into another battle.

Again, I disagree. I don't see why that one statement from Super Buu should override everything else, including the fight itself and half a dozen statements in Gotenks' favor. He seemed pretty pissed, and Piccolo said he would use his full effort. Piccolo wouldn't really have a way of knowing, but Toriyama is a simple man, so I like to assume he doesn't have characters lie for no reason. I see them as tools for him. IMO Buu was depicted as using his full power in that fight. Gohan also says:

Chapter: 498 (DBZ 304), P1.3, P2.4
Context: after Gohan beats up on Boo
Gohan: “I see…So you tried testing your power just to be sure, and I really was above you…That’s too bad, Majin Boo.”

...again suggesting that he was using full power against Gotenks.

Great gameplanning on Super Buu's part. He knew the boys would feel extremely confident in going up against him again and his plan worked.

[/quote]

Indeed, but I really, really disagree with the notion that Buu was letting himself get beaten and so that whole fight is moot. It looked to me he was trying to go toe to toe with Gotenks and failing miserably.

[Draken]

Chapter: 498 (DBZ 304), P1.3, P2.4
Context: after Gohan beats up on Boo
Gohan: “You can’t win…”
[ ]
Gohan: “I see…So you tried testing your power just to be sure, and I really was above you…That’s too bad, Majin Boo.”

...again suggesting that he was using full power against Gotenks.

How does that quote have anything to do with Gotenks again? Against Gohan yea he was using his full power, but where does it suggest that means he used his full power against Gotenks as well?

[dbzfan7]

Why are everyone points more relevant then Super Boo's when they don't know Super Boo is stalling. Super Boo can't go all out or risk killing the boys or else Gohan will crush him. He had to make sure the boys not only survived the fight, but also make sure they would fuse again. I only mentioned Boo ego as to why he didn't see Gotenks as much of a threat and why he constantly underestimated Gotenks. It's also the reason why he was also surprised by Gotenks' counter attacks. If Boo went all out and gave the boys a hard time they may not have fused again. But since the boys whooped him, they felt they could win no problem. That way Boo could easily goat them into fusing again. It was Super Boo's goal. Boo's ego is not the reason he lost to Gotenks, it was him not trying to kill Gotenks and stalling is what put him at great risk.

Ki sensing is a pushy subject as ki can always be hidden. Super Boo holding back probably hid his true power. I don't think you can sense true power, but only get an idea. Super Boo got an idea of Gotenks' power and believed he could win (this could be villain stupidity or actually true) I think it's both.

[RandomGuy96]

How does that quote have anything to do with Gotenks again? Against Gohan yea he was using his full power, but where does it suggest that means he used his full power against Gotenks as well?

Gohan says this in response to Buu saying that he sensed a power stronger than him in another realm, IIRC. The "testing your power" remark can only really be referring to the fight with Gotenks, as Gohan speaks about it in the past tense and that's when Buu first sensed Gohan.

Why are everyone points more relevant then Super Boo's when they don't know Super Boo is stalling. Super Boo can't go all out or risk killing the boys or else Gohan will crush him. He had to make sure the boys not only survived the fight, but also make sure they would fuse again. I only mentioned Boo ego as to why he didn't see Gotenks as much of a threat and why he constantly underestimated Gotenks. It's also the reason why he was also surprised by Gotenks' counter attacks. If Boo went all out and gave the boys a hard time they may not have fused again. But since the boys whooped him, they felt they could win no problem. That way Boo could easily goat them into fusing again. It was Super Boo's goal. Boo's ego is not the reason he lost to Gotenks, it was him not trying to kill Gotenks and stalling is what put him at great risk.

Ki sensing is a pushy subject as ki can always be hidden. Super Boo holding back probably hid his true power.

Not trying to kill him is one thing. Letting himself get dominated completely and almost killed is another. And again, you're assuming that Super Buu is 100% reliable, and that his word overrides everyone else's and the fight itself. When Buu got knocked around by Gotenks, I really don't think he still suppressing himself.

Even if you believe he was holding himself back during the fight with Gotenks, he would definitely not be holding back during the fight with Gohan. Logically, Gohan, Piccolo, and Goten all should have sensed it, and they still thought that Gotenks would beat him no problem. They also didn't make note of Super Buu's power vs Gohan being much greater than his power vs Gotenks, which usually happens in cases like this.

[dbzfan7]

Not trying to kill him is one thing. Letting himself get dominated completely and almost killed is another. And again, you're assuming that Super Buu is 100% reliable, and that his word overrides everyone else's and the fight itself. When Buu got knocked around by Gotenks, I really don't think he still suppressing himself.

Even if you believe he was holding himself back during the fight with Gotenks, he would definitely not be holding back during the fight with Gohan. Logically, Gohan, Piccolo, and Goten all should have sensed it, and they still thought that Gotenks would beat him no problem. They also didn't make note of Super Buu's power vs Gohan being much greater than his power vs Gotenks, which usually happens in cases like this.

Super Boo is not going to risk killing the boys. He would screw himself if he did. He believes he was always stronger then Gotenks or at least Gotenks wasn't a threat. So he obviously wasn't going all out or he would risk killing the one person who could help him overcome Gohan. All Piccolo says is why would he (Super Boo) want to" before the boys fly off to Super Boo. Piccolo then tries to tell the boys to not fuse against Super Boo because Super Boo was goating them into something. Only Goten and Trunks said they would have slaughtered him. And this is from Trunks who says Gohan is only a little stronger than Gotenks. Goten has always been Trunks tool so he agree's. Piccolo never stated Gotenks was way stronger then Super Boo, he only says they were at least on par which means Gotenks can be stronger. I only said Super Boo wasn't going all out, not holding back a ton. I'd say Super Boo is around 90% Gotenks if he tried. Super Boo probably used about 85% of his power on Gotenks. He was only not instantly killed because the boys played with him.

[Dr. Machismo]

Tien should be stronger than Krillin by the time the Androids appeared. Krillin may have gotten a powerup from Guru, but Tien trains much harder. Also, Tien did train with King Kai.

[Kamiccolo9]

Tenshinhan should be stronger than Krillin by the time the Androids appeared. Krillin may have gotten a powerup from Guru, but Tenshinhan trains much harder. Also, Tenshinhan did train with King Kai.

The author says otherwise. There's a thread about this over in the in-universe forum.

[Dr. Machismo]

Tenshinhan should be stronger than Krillin by the time the Androids appeared. Krillin may have gotten a powerup from Guru, but Tenshinhan trains much harder. Also, Tenshinhan did train with King Kai.

The author says otherwise. There's a thread about this over in the in-universe forum.

The author? Toriyama?

[Kamiccolo9]

Tenshinhan should be stronger than Krillin by the time the Androids appeared. Krillin may have gotten a powerup from Guru, but Tenshinhan trains much harder. Also, Tenshinhan did train with King Kai.

The author says otherwise. There's a thread about this over in the in-universe forum.

The author? Toriyama?

Yup.

[Dr. Machismo]

Yup.

Proof/thread?

[Kamiccolo9]

Yup.

Proof/thread?

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... ma-nozawa/

Toriyama: Ah, that’s right. No. 18 becomes Kuririn’s wife in the end.
Nozawa: Ah, I was surprised at that, too! All the voice actors wondered, “Why did she choose Kuririn?” (laughs)
Toriyama: Kuririn was originally supposed to be just a minor role, so to have him become Goku’s best friend in the blink of an eye…
Koyama: Well, he is the strongest Earthling male.
Toriyama: You’re right, he is the strongest among the Earthlings. But in spite of that, he tends to end up in a bad way, so I thought, “once in a while, I have to let him be happy,” and had him get married. (laughs)