"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[reecehoward]

I think at the end of the day if every character in DB had MUI the one with the strongest base would win. It doesn’t matter how much you can dodge if you can’t deal a damaging blow. I think a revalation in DB would be to stop relying on power ups and transformations and more on making their normal state stronger. If transformations are some multiplier or additive to the base than obviously the base is the most important state of all. Jiren didn’t need or really rely on transformations. Broly is probably going to be a prime example of that, if he’s stomping SSJ Vegeta/Goku in his normal state. Though base states don’t sell transformations do so we’ll probably never see that.

Yeah. Pretty much. Transformations sell. Without them the series would lose a lot of the alure at this point. I definitely understand that there are too many for the super saiyans though...but going back to base for everyone would kind of be boring aesthetically. Just keep the ones we have so far. Maybe one last transformation for when Goku evolves to his absolute peak. I can accept that personally.

[Miracles]

How is that proof? "Confirming" it after the fact doesn't speak at all to his prior knowledge of what it was he was seeking. Of course you're going to know what the mystery flavor is after you've tasted it. Of course you're going to know what's behind door number one after you've opened it. Of course you're going to know what your gift is after you've unwrapped it.

"He knew the answer was 42 all along. How do I know he knew? Because he said after he solved it was 42."

Read yourself. You are saying Goku didn't have UI in mind when talking about a wall. You claim it was just more power yet Goku's power shot up and even damaged his body trying to fight Jiren and still wasn't satisfied. Whis even confirms this is not how to overcome the wall during that time. When Goku finally goes UI, Jiren confirms, this is the wall and there is nothing left for Goku and Goku says he's right. It is confirmed before and after Goku was seeking UI, if you keep context and not nitpick and assume things.

[Miracles]

What I am saying is this, yes UI will help, but it isn't necessary in this situation if he can just get to his level of power and speed. As I stated already, if he can regress himself to the level where Roshi can finesse him with a bootleg UI, that's indicative of the fact that Jiren himself may not be a talented martial artist in that capacity. Goku wasting movement isn't even a problem if Jiren is just plain old stronger and faster. He's just throwing out single punches and nailing Goku, something that he'd be able to dodge with a regular old speed boost. I hate to have to bring the anime in this, but there, it was pretty evident that he'd need something more to get around those glare punches he was doing.

Goku needed UI to get the necessary power boost and speed and Jiren not being able to hit Roshi doesn't mean he is a bad martial artists. He used a skill that resembles a technique that is hard to even attain for the gods and Whis commented that Roshi was wise knowing such a concept and not even Goku himself could understand how Roshi was able to move like that. Roshi would have danced on Goku like that too.

[Marlowe89]

I'll go ahead and post my full thoughts on the chapter now. Time to make the donuts!

What I liked:

The art/paneling looked more intense than what I'm accustomed to seeing from Toyotaro. Whether he's showcasing a brutal collision between Gohan and Kefla (seriously loved this page) or Goku's deeply frustrated facial expressions while powering up with Kaioken-but-not-Kaioken, there's a whole lot of emotion and oomph behind some of these panels. I'm also digging Goku's fluid, sweeping movements against Jiren as a Super Saiyan Blue. Hopefully the manga can continue to do this arc justice artistically as we head into the climax.

Goku was excellent this chapter, if only because of the manga's multifaceted approach to his character. Desperate and pressed for time, he goes through a straight mental breakdown while attempting to force out as much power as he can against Jiren. Dire circumstances are preventing him from thinking rationally. Roshi, the master who taught him the fundamentals, then reminds him of the fundamentals. Being the fighting prodigy he is, Goku briefly taps into Ultra Instinct after observing Roshi in action. This works from an in-universe perspective because it reinforces the idea that Ultra Instinct is more about technique than sheer power, but more importantly, it's a nice thematic culmination of Goku's experiences as a martial artist. It's not that he's incompetent or out-of-character here; the point is that he needs to calmly reassess the situation and revisit what he's already learned to advance himself to those new heights. This is more internally consistent (and less out-of-nowhere) than somehow absorbing a Genki Dama that shouldn't even be stronger than the one that destroyed Kid Buu, and then having that somehow trigger a technique that's supposed to emphasize movement above all else. Here, there's a real sense of progression happening on multiple levels.

Universe 6's send-off was surprisingly both subtle and melancholy, and Champa silently accepting his loss while acknowledging his team's hard work eloquently sold the impact of the scene. It wasn't perfect: Beerus' reaction to Champa's erasure in the anime suited their relationship a tad more, honestly, but these guys are assholes with a bitterly competitive relationship anyway. I think it goes without saying that Beerus is sad to see his brother deleted from existence in both versions, but he's not the type of character to openly express something like that, and Champa's certainly not the type of character to concede their rivalry. It succeeded at what it set out to accomplish.

What I didn't like:

Gohan vs. Kefla, for as much as I enjoyed their banter, was a totally pointless conflict. The previous chapter made it out to be a bigger deal than it ended up being. Both fighters are bloodied and bruised near the end of their fight only a few pages after we see them in much better condition and just getting started. Gohan barely has a role that results in anything worthwhile outside of fanservicey babble about his Earthling lineage, and Kefla is barely a character at all. The worst part of it is Caulifla and Kale, two characters that had an entire subplot dedicated to them for multiple chapters, ended their stories on such an absurdly humdrum note. Why? I still disagree with everyone saying that the arc as a whole feels rushed, but this actually feels rushed. This is pretty darn underwhelming.

Roshi's "fanservice" moment against Jiren doesn't break the power scaling like people think it does, nor is it totally unbelievable that he would develop his movement trick at some point off-screen (dude's a 300-something year old martial arts hermit with a high affinity for spiritualistic concepts, something this innocuous should never ruin your suspension of disbelief) but its build-up is horribly insufficient. We did get a small bit of it earlier in the tournament when Roshi lectured Goku for trying to bail him out when he should have been worrying about his own hide, but for a guy who suddenly busted out a UI-like move against Jiren of all people like it was nothing, this doesn't feel earned on a narrative level. We can presume he was training for it during the recruitment period, which really doesn't need to be stated; however, a pre-tournament hint of some kind, no matter how subtle, would have done wonders to make it seem less contrived than it is. There wasn't nearly enough effort put into its foreshadowing to help Roshi's big moment feel like a natural inclusion. Not a fan of that.

Overall:

I've spent more than enough time ruminating over how ridiculous the overreactions have been this month, but when it comes to the actual content, I'm a bit conflicted and slightly disappointed. This chapter simultaneously contains some of the strongest and weakest moments of the manga's Tournament of Power by far. Ultimately, I respect Toyotaro for endeavoring to take bold risks with the story, and his willingness to do so feels very Toriyama-esque in nature. I just don't think all of them paid off here, unfortunately.

What I'm really going to appreciate about Chapter 39 looking back is that there's a lot to chew on and digest, regardless of one's personal impressions. That's awesome. Hopefully it can generate more compelling discussions in the more distant future.

[Simere]

Read yourself. You are saying Goku didn't have UI in mind when talking about a wall. You claim it was just more power yet Goku's power shot up and even damaged his body trying to fight Jiren and still wasn't satisfied. Whis even confirms the wall Goku is talking about during that time. When Goku finally goes UI, Jiren confirms, this is the wall and there is nothing left for Goku and Goku says he's right. It is confirmed before and after Goku was seeking UI, if you keep context and not nitpick and assume things.

Your repeated accusations of my assumptions you can't name are annoying enough, don't start in on accusing me of not knowing what I said. What does Goku being unsatisfied by his ineffectual power tantrum supposed to prove? I'll tell you what it doesn't prove: your assertion that Goku was knowingly pursuing UI. Regardless, of course he was unsatisfied. It didn't work. That means nothing.

The fact is, you're the one assuming, and your assumption is so ingrained in your perception that the fact that I'm not is making you unable to even process what I'm saying. That's why you keep bringing up things that don't matter. What Whis said is not relevant; Whis's knowledge does not speak to Goku's knowledge. That bit with Goku and Jiren is not relevant; Goku affirming that he has nothing left doesn't have any bearing on the extent of Goku's foreknowledge. The only thing said after Goku tapped into UI that's pursuant to the question at hand is this exchange:

Jiren: So you've overcome your wall and arrived at this state?
Goku: Probably.

This is the exchange you tried to use before to prove that Jiren confirmed Goku knew all along. Nonsense, of course, because 1) Jiren's asking a question, not confirming, 2) this is not a question framed to answer Goku's prior knowledge(it's irrelevant), 3) the answer of "probably" would not support the idea he knew all along.

These are the rest of the relevant quotes:

Hit: Beat him alone? But weren't you at full strength just now?
Goku: Sure was, but still...there's another wall I've gotta overcome first.
Hit: Wall? A transformation beyond Blue, is it?
Goku: Something like that.
Hit: And you plan to push that wall during this tournament?
Goku: Yup...otherwise, we probably don't have a chance.
Hit: Confident, aren't you?
Goku: It's not confidence. Not really. It's the only option I've got.

Goku: This can't be my limit...there's still a wall I've gotta overcome!
Jiren: ...A wall?
Goku: Don't care if this wrecks my body in the end!! Cuz what I need now is pure power!!

Roshi: What's strength mean to you?
Goku: Strength...? Well, even my Super Saiyan Blue form can't keep up with him, so...I guess I need some kinda greater power?
Roshi: Hmph...power, y'say? Plain old fighting strength? Who the heck taught you that? Vegeta? Freeza?
Goku: ...
Roshi: No, that's no way to measure things.
Goku: I don't get it, gramps...
Roshi: We don't master martial arts to win fights. We do it to conquer ourselves. Until you learn not to get all caught up in the enemy's power, you'll always be as green as the day we met.

[Simere]

Roshi, the master who taught him the fundamentals, then reminds him of the fundamentals.

Roshi is not the master who taught him fundamentals. Notice how Roshi is not one of the masters Goku remembered giving him advice? The great lark of all this is that Roshi is the master that had nothing to offer him but power. Kuririn and Goku begged Roshi to teach them technique, but he said his training is only about power.

Being the fighting prodigy he is, Goku briefly taps into Ultra Instinct after observing Roshi in action. This works from an in-universe perspective because it reinforces the idea that Ultra Instinct is more about technique than sheer power, but more importantly, it's a nice thematic culmination of Goku's experiences as a martial artist. It's not that he's incompetent or out-of-character here; the point is that he needs to calmly reassess the situation and revisit what he's already learned to advance himself to those new heights.

If that's what he was going for, don't you think he should have dropped the lines about Goku being half-baked, about him never listening to his master(s?), and how "until [Goku] learns to not get caught up in power" he'll always be green? None of these lines sound to me like a guy who just lost his head and needed time to think; they sound like a guy who hasn't been focused for awhile now, or worse, never was in the first place.

[Miracles]

Read yourself. You are saying Goku didn't have UI in mind when talking about a wall. You claim it was just more power yet Goku's power shot up and even damaged his body trying to fight Jiren and still wasn't satisfied. Whis even confirms the wall Goku is talking about during that time. When Goku finally goes UI, Jiren confirms, this is the wall and there is nothing left for Goku and Goku says he's right. It is confirmed before and after Goku was seeking UI, if you keep context and not nitpick and assume things.

Your repeated accusations of my assumptions you can't name are annoying enough, don't start in on accusing me of not knowing what I said. What does Goku being unsatisfied by his ineffectual power tantrum supposed to prove? I'll tell you what it doesn't prove: your assertion that Goku was knowingly pursuing UI. Regardless, of course he was unsatisfied. It didn't work. That means nothing.

The fact is, you're the one assuming, and your assumption is so ingrained in your perception that the fact that I'm not is making you unable to even process what I'm saying. That's why you keep bringing up things that don't matter. What Whis said is not relevant; Whis's knowledge does not speak to Goku's knowledge. That bit with Goku and Jiren is not relevant; Goku affirming that he has nothing left doesn't have any bearing on the extent of Goku's foreknowledge. The only thing said after Goku tapped into UI that's pursuant to the question at hand is this exchange:

Jiren: So you've overcome your wall and arrived at this state?
Goku: Probably.

This is the exchange you tried to use before to prove that Jiren confirmed Goku knew all along. Nonsense, of course, because 1) Jiren's asking a question, not confirming, 2) this is not a question framed to answer Goku's prior knowledge(it's irrelevant), 3) the answer of "probably" would not support the idea he knew all along.

These are the rest of the relevant quotes:

Hit: Beat him alone? But weren't you at full strength just now?
Goku: Sure was, but still...there's another wall I've gotta overcome first.
Hit: Wall? A transformation beyond Blue, is it?
Goku: Something like that.
Hit: And you plan to push that wall during this tournament?
Goku: Yup...otherwise, we probably don't have a chance.
Hit: Confident, aren't you?
Goku: It's not confidence. Not really. It's the only option I've got.

Goku: This can't be my limit...there's still a wall I've gotta overcome!
Jiren: ...A wall?
Goku: Don't care if this wrecks my body in the end!! Cuz what I need now is pure power!!

Roshi: What's strength mean to you?
Goku: Strength...? Well, even my Super Saiyan Blue form can't keep up with him, so...I guess I need some kinda greater power?
Roshi: Hmph...power, y'say? Plain old fighting strength? Who the heck taught you that? Vegeta? Freeza?
Goku: ...
Roshi: No, that's no way to measure things.
Goku: I don't get it, gramps...
Roshi: We don't master martial arts to win fights. We do it to conquer ourselves. Until you learn not to get all caught up in the enemy's power, you'll always be as green as the day we met.

What's the transformation beyond Blue and did Goku push past the wall this tourney like he said to Hit?
Yes, he did, the transformation IS UI! Please don't act as if Goku hasn't raged/pushed before, trying to achieve a new form [SSJ1]. This time it wasn't the way to do so.

Whis confirms Goku's knowledge, it's not Whis's knowledge, he is merely repeating what Goku said about the wall. Whis knowledge was displayed when he said that's not the way to overcome the wall. Which was UI. Do you think Whis can't hear the fighters down there? lol you are trying to remove context to fit your own view of things. Whis context matters very much as he confirms Goku's attempts at reaching UI.

[Simere]

What's the transformation beyond Blue and did Goku push past the wall this tourney like he said to Hit?
Yes, he did, the transformation IS UI!

Wait, wait, wait. Wait! Let me think. The question is...what's the transformation...beyond Blue...? Is it SSBKK? Is it SSBE? SS4? Um...uh...oh, you're right. It's UI.

I see now. UI is the transformation beyond Blue, so that proves Goku knew he was gunning for UI. We're on the same page now. I've enjoyed our discussion.

[Miracles]

What's the transformation beyond Blue and did Goku push past the wall this tourney like he said to Hit?
Yes, he did, the transformation IS UI!

Wait, wait, wait. Wait! Let me think. The question is...what's the transformation beyond Blue...? Is it SSBKK? Is it SSBE? SS4? Um...uh...oh, you're right. It's UI.

I see now. UI is the transformation beyond Blue, so that proves Goku knew he was gunning for UI. We're on the same page now. I've enjoyed our discussion.

The manga SHOWED at the end that the transformation Goku talked about to Hit and tried to reach before the entire time was UI...which is Beyond Blue....

[Marlowe89]

Roshi is not the master who taught him fundamentals.

He absolutely is. Roshi specifically called those busywork exercises "the basics", then reiterated how they helped solidify their perception, power, speed, and minds. That's what I was referring to. The whole point is that they were deceptively simple tasks that improved Goku and Kuririn's attributes, providing them with a baseline to develop a full-fledged fighting style from.

Obviously Roshi's advanced movement relies on a different sort of principle, but that also relates to Goku's previous lessons throughout his life. It doesn't exist in a vacuum. Even his battle against Jackie Chun had him learning the zanzouken, another movement technique.

None of these lines sound to me like a guy who just lost his head and needed time to think

Goku needed time to think because that's exactly what happened. He contemplated the teachings of his former mentors, particularly teachings that he already mastered, and applied them to a situation he previously felt was only solvable by powering up. Having a firm grasp on those concepts is precisely what made this possible.

[Simere]

Roshi is not the master who taught him fundamentals.

He absolutely is. Roshi specifically called those busywork exercises "the basics" multiple times, then reiterated how they helped solidify their perception, power, speed, and minds. That's what I was referring to.

And what Roshi was referring to was that it made them stronger, not that they learned how to fight by doing milk runs. "Fighting is just the application of your abilities". He was saying that the Kame style is to first build up your strength(mental and physical) and to worry about how to actually fight later, because you need to be strong to do anything. He flat out says "As far as fighting goes, there's really not much I have to teach you".

Gohan is the one who taught him fundamentals.

Goku needed time to think because that's exactly what happened. He contemplated the teachings of his former mentors, particularly teachings that he already mastered, and applied them to a situation he previously felt was only solvable by powering up. Having a firm grasp on those concepts is precisely what made this possible.

I'm more curious about what I asked: whether you think those lines I referenced detract from the supposed point. Because it's not like you'll find a shortage of people who reached the conclusion this chapter was saying Goku lacks technique. Even among those who liked it, like Bergamo here.

[Cipher]

*snip*

Pretty much co-signed. Both the positives and the negatives.

I enjoyed Gohan's beats this chapter (and indeed that's maybe the first time I've felt his character has really been serviced by any part of any version of Super), felt elements of Goku's motivation were handled fairly well, but the action and art were particularly under-inspired, Gohan vs. Kefla is the first time I've actually thought the manga felt rushed on its own terms (it's inconceivable it would have had that kind of jump to its conclusion were the series on its own schedule), and I rather dislike the idea of Kame-sennin participating at all in either version. While this does ... something with him, and it leads to a coherent route for Goku to continue developing, it isn't executed well enough on its own to make me change my mind about that or really avoid being a bit of a head-scratcher, albeit not nearly as egregious a one as people have made it out to be.

[reecehoward]

What I am saying is this, yes UI will help, but it isn't necessary in this situation if he can just get to his level of power and speed. As I stated already, if he can regress himself to the level where Roshi can finesse him with a bootleg UI, that's indicative of the fact that Jiren himself may not be a talented martial artist in that capacity. Goku wasting movement isn't even a problem if Jiren is just plain old stronger and faster. He's just throwing out single punches and nailing Goku, something that he'd be able to dodge with a regular old speed boost. I hate to have to bring the anime in this, but there, it was pretty evident that he'd need something more to get around those glare punches he was doing.

Goku needed UI to get the necessary power boost and speed and Jiren not being able to hit Roshi doesn't mean he is a bad martial artists. He used a skill that resembles a technique that is hard to even attain for the gods and Whis commented that Roshi was wise knowing such a concept and not even Goku himself could understand how Roshi was able to move like that. Roshi would have danced on Goku like that too.

I'm going to say this one more time; Goku could have gotten any new hypothetical transformation and the outcome would be him beating Jiren. Instinctual dodging is overkill for what has been shown of Jiren's martial art skills thus far. If Roshi can style on him while suppressed to his level(which is already dumb on Jiren's part for stooping down THAT far in fear of killing him), that means that Goku at Jiren's level of speed and power would utterly embarrass him. I could see if Goku's problem this entire arc was that he simply couldn't hit Jiren or avoid his attacks, and just needed overall better technique. THAT would work for the theme in this chapter. This isn't the case though, as Jiren isn't really fighting as a martial artist here. He's JUST a strong guy here with no discernible style or unique move to warrant UI being needed for the sake of overcoming Jiren's moves. He's not even bothering dodging Goku in this version. It's not even being sold to us (the audience) that UI will give Goku a power boost(an issue I find in both versions of the arc is UI being more about power in the end anyways), and Toyo is trying to have us believe that this technique(not a form as far as the cast is concerned before it happens) is necessary when through Roshi's own performance we know Goku would STILL get humiliated with just the technique of it. On the flipside, a hypothetical Super Saiyan Blue 2 would be more than enough to get the job done. He literally just needs a powerup here as he's STILL a superior martial artist compared to what Jiren has been showing.

This IS my point. Jiren's is pure power and speed. Goku is a better fighter ALREADY. He only needs to be at Jiren's level. Roshi PROVES this by finessing Jiren while on equal terms.

[TKA]

Pretty much co-signed. Both the positives and the negatives.

I enjoyed Gohan's beats this chapter (and indeed that's maybe the first time I've felt his character has really been serviced by any part of any version of Super), felt elements of Goku's motivation were handled fairly well, but the action and art were particularly under-inspired, Gohan vs. Kefla is the first time I've actually thought the manga felt rushed on its own terms (it's inconceivable it would have had that kind of jump to its conclusion were the series on its own schedule), and I rather dislike the idea of Kame-sennin participating at all in either version. While this does ... something with him, and it leads to a coherent route for Goku to continue developing, it isn't executed well enough on its own to make me change my mind about that or really avoid being a bit of a head-scratcher, albeit not nearly as egregious a one as people have made it out to be.

I generally agree.

Roshi being in this tournament and doing better than his (non-Goku) students is something I don't appreciate since he stepped back from fighting and said the new generation is better than him. What Toyotaro is doing here is making chicken salad out of chicken shit by making Roshi's contributions more tied to his longevity and accumulated wisdom, rather than his fighting ability.

Not to be a backseat writer here, but I feel like this would be somewhat more palatable if Krillin or Tenshinhan (or even Yamcha) were the ones to help Goku come to this conclusion. Of course, a lot would need to be changed to make this work, and it couldn't be done exactly the same as what Roshi did this chapter, but it would at least preserve him taking a backseat to his students.

[Marlowe89]

And what Roshi was referring to was that it made them stronger, not that they learned how to fight by doing milk runs. "Fighting is just the application of your abilities".

I'm aware of that, and I fully concur. I think you misinterpreted me; I'm using the term "fundamentals" in a more all-encompassing way than you are. Roshi obviously never spent a lot of time teaching Goku "how to move well" (though again, he kinda sorta helped Goku learn zanzouken) and even says as much in this chapter. My point is that Roshi, the most rudimentary of all of Goku's teachers throughout the story, reminded him of the basics imparted to him from all of his teachers.

To reiterate: I don't think that Toyotaro's execution of Roshi doing what he did was perfect by any means, but I totally appreciate this aspect of it.

I'm more curious about what I asked: whether you think those lines I referenced detract from the supposed point.

Honestly, no, because I think that was just teacher-student banter. Roshi is aware that Goku isn't green, otherwise he wouldn't have tried to encourage him, and Goku is always humble in his interactions with (and about) Roshi nowadays. The context of the chapter is crystal clear to me that drastic circumstances are affecting Goku's state of mind for the worst. As I've said when reviewing prior chapters, the calamitous atmosphere of this tournament is one of the manga's major running themes.

[LightBing]

I generally agree.

Roshi being in this tournament and doing better than his (non-Goku) students is something I don't appreciate since he stepped back from fighting and said the new generation is better than him. What Toyotaro is doing here is making chicken salad out of chicken shit by making Roshi's contributions more tied to his longevity and accumulated wisdom, rather than his fighting ability.

Not to be a backseat writer here, but I feel like this would be somewhat more palatable if Krillin or Tenshinhan (or even Yamcha) were the ones to help Goku come to this conclusion. Of course, a lot would need to be changed to make this work, and it couldn't be done exactly the same as what Roshi did this chapter, but it would at least preserve him taking a backseat to his students.

He was going to suffer the same fate as Kuririn and Tenshinhan if not for Goku's interference. In a way Goku was the one who allowed this outcome.

I find if the goal was to have any one these characters offer some memory lane perspective Muten Roshi would be the best candidate due too like you said experience. Tenshinhan would be due too their specific rivalry and Kuririn because of their friendship/rivalry. Yamcha I don't see it, he was an enemy for a short period of time and after that barely spend any time with Goku. Maybe as spectator too his growth.

[Miracles]

What I am saying is this, yes UI will help, but it isn't necessary in this situation if he can just get to his level of power and speed. As I stated already, if he can regress himself to the level where Roshi can finesse him with a bootleg UI, that's indicative of the fact that Jiren himself may not be a talented martial artist in that capacity. Goku wasting movement isn't even a problem if Jiren is just plain old stronger and faster. He's just throwing out single punches and nailing Goku, something that he'd be able to dodge with a regular old speed boost. I hate to have to bring the anime in this, but there, it was pretty evident that he'd need something more to get around those glare punches he was doing.

Goku needed UI to get the necessary power boost and speed and Jiren not being able to hit Roshi doesn't mean he is a bad martial artists. He used a skill that resembles a technique that is hard to even attain for the gods and Whis commented that Roshi was wise knowing such a concept and not even Goku himself could understand how Roshi was able to move like that. Roshi would have danced on Goku like that too.

I'm going to say this one more time; Goku could have gotten any new hypothetical transformation and the outcome would be him beating Jiren. Instinctual dodging is overkill for what has been shown of Jiren's martial art skills thus far. If Roshi can style on him while suppressed to his level(which is already dumb on Jiren's part for stooping down THAT far in fear of killing him), that means that Goku at Jiren's level of speed and power would utterly embarrass him. I could see if Goku's problem this entire arc was that he simply couldn't hit Jiren or avoid his attacks, and just needed overall better technique. THAT would work for the theme in this chapter. This isn't the case though, as Jiren isn't really fighting as a martial artist here. He's JUST a strong guy here with no discernible style or unique move to warrant UI being needed for the sake of overcoming Jiren's moves. He's not even bothering dodging Goku in this version. It's not even being sold to us (the audience) that UI will give Goku a power boost(an issue I find in both versions of the arc is UI being more about power in the end anyways), and Toyo is trying to have us believe that this technique(not a form as far as the cast is concerned before it happens) is necessary when through Roshi's own performance we know Goku would STILL get humiliated with just the technique of it. On the flipside, a hypothetical Super Saiyan Blue 2 would be more than enough to get the job done. He literally just needs a powerup here as he's STILL a superior martial artist compared to what Jiren has been showing.

This IS my point. Jiren's is pure power and speed. Goku is a better fighter ALREADY. He only needs to be at Jiren's level. Roshi PROVES this by finessing Jiren while on equal terms.

This is just assumption. Jiren dodged Roshi who was resembling a form of UI. To say he isn't a true martial artist is hogwash.

[reecehoward]

Goku needed UI to get the necessary power boost and speed and Jiren not being able to hit Roshi doesn't mean he is a bad martial artists. He used a skill that resembles a technique that is hard to even attain for the gods and Whis commented that Roshi was wise knowing such a concept and not even Goku himself could understand how Roshi was able to move like that. Roshi would have danced on Goku like that too.

I'm going to say this one more time; Goku could have gotten any new hypothetical transformation and the outcome would be him beating Jiren. Instinctual dodging is overkill for what has been shown of Jiren's martial art skills thus far. If Roshi can style on him while suppressed to his level(which is already dumb on Jiren's part for stooping down THAT far in fear of killing him), that means that Goku at Jiren's level of speed and power would utterly embarrass him. I could see if Goku's problem this entire arc was that he simply couldn't hit Jiren or avoid his attacks, and just needed overall better technique. THAT would work for the theme in this chapter. This isn't the case though, as Jiren isn't really fighting as a martial artist here. He's JUST a strong guy here with no discernible style or unique move to warrant UI being needed for the sake of overcoming Jiren's moves. He's not even bothering dodging Goku in this version. It's not even being sold to us (the audience) that UI will give Goku a power boost(an issue I find in both versions of the arc is UI being more about power in the end anyways), and Toyo is trying to have us believe that this technique(not a form as far as the cast is concerned before it happens) is necessary when through Roshi's own performance we know Goku would STILL get humiliated with just the technique of it. On the flipside, a hypothetical Super Saiyan Blue 2 would be more than enough to get the job done. He literally just needs a powerup here as he's STILL a superior martial artist compared to what Jiren has been showing.

This IS my point. Jiren's is pure power and speed. Goku is a better fighter ALREADY. He only needs to be at Jiren's level. Roshi PROVES this by finessing Jiren while on equal terms.

This is just assumption. Jiren dodged Roshi who was resembling a form of UI. To say he isn't a true martial artist is hogwash.

How is it assumption? What has Jiren done so far that indicates a great martial artist?

As far as I see, He hasn't been doing ANYTHING wild in the technique department, he hasn't been dodging anyones hits, he just tanks and throws single punches. When it came to Roshi, he literally just swings at him a few times and SPEEDS right past him when he can't hit him. If he was a bold enough fighter to lower himself to the point where Roshi could dodge him AND force him to block, that speaks volumes of his martial arts capability as every antagonist in the series was skilled enough to hold back just enough to blitz, tank, or one shot their opponent without killing them. Roshi isn't even using UI, but rather a poor man's version of it and Jiren couldn't hit him until he raised his power level just enough to do what he should've done in the first place; drop down to being a few levels ahead of him.

[Miracles]

I'm going to say this one more time; Goku could have gotten any new hypothetical transformation and the outcome would be him beating Jiren. Instinctual dodging is overkill for what has been shown of Jiren's martial art skills thus far. If Roshi can style on him while suppressed to his level(which is already dumb on Jiren's part for stooping down THAT far in fear of killing him), that means that Goku at Jiren's level of speed and power would utterly embarrass him. I could see if Goku's problem this entire arc was that he simply couldn't hit Jiren or avoid his attacks, and just needed overall better technique. THAT would work for the theme in this chapter. This isn't the case though, as Jiren isn't really fighting as a martial artist here. He's JUST a strong guy here with no discernible style or unique move to warrant UI being needed for the sake of overcoming Jiren's moves. He's not even bothering dodging Goku in this version. It's not even being sold to us (the audience) that UI will give Goku a power boost(an issue I find in both versions of the arc is UI being more about power in the end anyways), and Toyo is trying to have us believe that this technique(not a form as far as the cast is concerned before it happens) is necessary when through Roshi's own performance we know Goku would STILL get humiliated with just the technique of it. On the flipside, a hypothetical Super Saiyan Blue 2 would be more than enough to get the job done. He literally just needs a powerup here as he's STILL a superior martial artist compared to what Jiren has been showing.

This IS my point. Jiren's is pure power and speed. Goku is a better fighter ALREADY. He only needs to be at Jiren's level. Roshi PROVES this by finessing Jiren while on equal terms.

This is just assumption. Jiren dodged Roshi who was resembling a form of UI. To say he isn't a true martial artist is hogwash.

How is it assumption? What has Jiren done so far that indicates a great martial artist?

As far as I see, He hasn't been doing ANYTHING wild in the technique department, he hasn't been dodging anyones hits, he just tanks and throws single punches. When it came to Roshi, he literally just swings at him a few times and SPEEDS right past him when he can't hit him. If he was a bold enough fighter to lower himself to the point where Roshi could dodge him AND force him to block, that speaks volumes of his martial arts capability as every antagonist in the series was skilled enough to hold back just enough to blitz, tank, or one shot their opponent without killing them. Roshi isn't even using UI, but rather a poor man's version of it and Jiren couldn't hit him until he raised his power level just enough to do what he should've done in the first place; drop down to being a few levels ahead of him.

Jiren dodged and love tapped a guy who was resembling a technique like UI. One of the best to ever do it in Roshi! Someone that impressed Beerus, Whis and Goku.
To say Jiren isn't a good martial artist is assumption since he hasn't faced anything yet that forces him to use all his arsenal.

[reecehoward]

This is just assumption. Jiren dodged Roshi who was resembling a form of UI. To say he isn't a true martial artist is hogwash.

How is it assumption? What has Jiren done so far that indicates a great martial artist?

As far as I see, He hasn't been doing ANYTHING wild in the technique department, he hasn't been dodging anyones hits, he just tanks and throws single punches. When it came to Roshi, he literally just swings at him a few times and SPEEDS right past him when he can't hit him. If he was a bold enough fighter to lower himself to the point where Roshi could dodge him AND force him to block, that speaks volumes of his martial arts capability as every antagonist in the series was skilled enough to hold back just enough to blitz, tank, or one shot their opponent without killing them. Roshi isn't even using UI, but rather a poor man's version of it and Jiren couldn't hit him until he raised his power level just enough to do what he should've done in the first place; drop down to being a few levels ahead of him.

Jiren dodged and love tapped a guy who was resembling a technique like UI. One of the best to ever do it in Roshi! Someone that impressed Beerus, Whis and Goku.
To say Jiren isn't a good martial artist is assumption since he hasn't faced anything yet that forces him to use all his arsenal.

EXACTLY! We don't know what Jiren can do, not even a little hint of his technique. So how is it that Roshi is able to even berate Goku for thinking about obtaining more power, when his logical solution based on what is being shown so far IS power. Technique doesn't matter when you can't even hurt the dude even when he's allowing you to get in hits. Roshi tried to make a point and Jiren quickly showed him the answer by using what; MORE POWER. There was no technique to Jiren just raising his power and tapping Roshi on his shoulder. That was raw speed and power.

I get what Toyo was going for, but it's so poorly executed that I just can't find the justification for people trying to defend it.