"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Sora Saiyan]

There’s this, and also what DBS has established throughout its run about how weak somebody can be when they’re caught off guard. With how UIO Goku moves he could logically catch somebody off guard, and when it’s completed he would definitely be able to seize that opportunity.

Only when they let their power down, not when they are actually fighting. There's no instance of this in the entire Dragonball series.

Nappa got hurt from the attacks of the Z fighter when he was caught by surprise.
Vegeta has his tail cut off by Yajirobe due to a surprise attack, and his power would have been 100s of times higher than anything Yajirobe could muster.

Final form Freeza got kicked in the back of the head by Piccolo and was really pissed after. We know he wouldn’t have powered down at that stage, and for arguments sake let’s say even if he did, he would’ve still been many times stronger than a Piccolo that needed to take energy from Gohan and Krillin who were also a lot below their best.

In super we have #17 hit Jiren in the back with a ki blast in the Super anime, and Jiren didn’t drop his power.

Those are instances of characters not letting their power down, as Nappa, Vegeta and Freeza didn’t know how to suppress their ki below their initial levels.

Trunks also does knock Rose Black back in the manga when he’s trying to destroy the time machine, and I’m sure he does something in the anime too. The last one isn’t the best example, but the Jiren vs Goku fight shows you that if the foe knows where the attacks are coming from they aren’t really gonna be budged. Also the gap between Jiren and Goku would be much closer than the gap between SSJ2 Trunks and Rose Black.

So yeah I believe UI could capitalise on hitting Jiren from behind, and actually catching him a little off guard if he attacks him from a position that Jiren hasn’t seen coming/anticipated. If he can’t truly do much damage he could at least knock him out of bounds.

Anyway, isn’t their a moment in Super where Whis states that Saiyans are a race that get stronger through transformations? If that’s correct I guess Goku having a special form for UI may be a Saiyan exclusive thing, and because it gives him a new form his strength also increases alongside it.
Just a thought.

Edit: I actually forgot the most important off guard moment for Goku.
When he attacks Toppo in the DBS manga he’s defeated in one blow because he let his guard down, even though he was at full power.

[Sora Saiyan]

I actually forgot the most important off guard moment of Goku.
When he attacks Toppo in the DBS manga he’s defeated in one blow because he let his guard, even though he went full power.

[TKA]

Speaking of Gohan, I can't believe he has the nerve to renounce his Saiyan side when it's the only reason he's even somewhat relevant. If he were born human he'd be a joke like Tenshinhan.

There's nothing to be proud of with being a Saiyan. They're bloodthirsty, warmongering marauders. Goku disavowed them many times in the original and said they deserve what they got. The fact that Gohan prides himself on being human is 100% within character, given who Gohan is. Just like Vegeta priding his saiyan heritage makes sense within Vegeta's character.

This seems like such a petty, insignificant thing to try to pick apart. Especially since your assertion makes no sense given this particular character.

[Noah]

Seeing how Toyotaro is in such a hurry to end this arc, could we expect more two chapters to go?

[prince212]

Seeing how Toyotaro is in such a hurry to end this arc, could we expect more two chapters to go?

That’s it , manga chapters have been consistent with the pace of 5 min per chapter , and at the beginning of last chapter it was said 15 remaining so , yes that fits well . Chapter 40 , toppo-vegeta , 17-dyspo and goku saving his ass somehow
Chapter 41 the miraculous conclusion with the remaining against Jiren . That’s my easy bet , but after all the different paths the manga is taking , nothing can surprise me and may be we will have a different winner warrior , of course from u7 too .
I am more than ok with a17 as the winner , I hope they’ll keep as it was on the anime version , no one fits better ..
So chapter 42 ( November ) can be about the wishes and the after tournament life with some broly whereabouts introduction

[Miracles]

How is it assumption? What has Jiren done so far that indicates a great martial artist?

As far as I see, He hasn't been doing ANYTHING wild in the technique department, he hasn't been dodging anyones hits, he just tanks and throws single punches. When it came to Roshi, he literally just swings at him a few times and SPEEDS right past him when he can't hit him. If he was a bold enough fighter to lower himself to the point where Roshi could dodge him AND force him to block, that speaks volumes of his martial arts capability as every antagonist in the series was skilled enough to hold back just enough to blitz, tank, or one shot their opponent without killing them. Roshi isn't even using UI, but rather a poor man's version of it and Jiren couldn't hit him until he raised his power level just enough to do what he should've done in the first place; drop down to being a few levels ahead of him.

Jiren dodged and love tapped a guy who was resembling a technique like UI. One of the best to ever do it in Roshi! Someone that impressed Beerus, Whis and Goku.
To say Jiren isn't a good martial artist is assumption since he hasn't faced anything yet that forces him to use all his arsenal.

EXACTLY! We don't know what Jiren can do, not even a little hint of his technique. So how is it that Roshi is able to even berate Goku for thinking about obtaining more power, when his logical solution based on what is being shown so far IS power. Technique doesn't matter when you can't even hurt the dude even when he's allowing you to get in hits. Roshi tried to make a point and Jiren quickly showed him the answer by using what; MORE POWER. There was no technique to Jiren just raising his power and tapping Roshi on his shoulder. That was raw speed and power.

I get what Toyo was going for, but it's so poorly executed that I just can't find the justification for people trying to defend it.

1. Every time Jiren attacked he did in fact hit Goku. Goku did indeed need to dodge attacks and stop taking damage. Here comes Roshi...
2. Ultra Instinct brings more power as well but Goku just randomly powering up was not the way to achieve this form.

[reecehoward]

Jiren dodged and love tapped a guy who was resembling a technique like UI. One of the best to ever do it in Roshi! Someone that impressed Beerus, Whis and Goku.
To say Jiren isn't a good martial artist is assumption since he hasn't faced anything yet that forces him to use all his arsenal.

EXACTLY! We don't know what Jiren can do, not even a little hint of his technique. So how is it that Roshi is able to even berate Goku for thinking about obtaining more power, when his logical solution based on what is being shown so far IS power. Technique doesn't matter when you can't even hurt the dude even when he's allowing you to get in hits. Roshi tried to make a point and Jiren quickly showed him the answer by using what; MORE POWER. There was no technique to Jiren just raising his power and tapping Roshi on his shoulder. That was raw speed and power.

I get what Toyo was going for, but it's so poorly executed that I just can't find the justification for people trying to defend it.

1. Every time Jiren attacked he did in fact hit Goku. Goku did indeed need to dodge attacks and stop taking damage. Here comes Roshi...
2. Ultra Instinct brings more power as well but Goku just randomly powering up was not the way to achieve this form.

1. Jiren has hardly hit Goku that much for him to just think that dodging would be his trump. That's not even reasonable to throw that out there. The few hits Jiren has landed on screen have all been counter hits. He isn't really blitzing or anything.

2. No one knows that Ultra Instinct will do that except for Whis and Beerus. Even worse is that there's not a single lime of dialog to suggest that he'll get a powerup by focusing on UI. We all know he will, but in-story there's nothing even slightly hinting towards it.

[Miracles]

EXACTLY! We don't know what Jiren can do, not even a little hint of his technique. So how is it that Roshi is able to even berate Goku for thinking about obtaining more power, when his logical solution based on what is being shown so far IS power. Technique doesn't matter when you can't even hurt the dude even when he's allowing you to get in hits. Roshi tried to make a point and Jiren quickly showed him the answer by using what; MORE POWER. There was no technique to Jiren just raising his power and tapping Roshi on his shoulder. That was raw speed and power.

I get what Toyo was going for, but it's so poorly executed that I just can't find the justification for people trying to defend it.

1. Every time Jiren attacked he did in fact hit Goku. Goku did indeed need to dodge attacks and stop taking damage. Here comes Roshi...
2. Ultra Instinct brings more power as well but Goku just randomly powering up was not the way to achieve this form.

1. Jiren has hardly hit Goku that much for him to just think that dodging would be his trump. That's not even reasonable to throw that out there. The few hits Jiren has landed on screen have all been counter hits. He isn't really blitzing or anything.

2. No one knows that Ultra Instinct will do that except for Whis and Beerus. Even worse is that there's not a single lime of dialog to suggest that he'll get a powerup by focusing on UI. We all know he will, but in-story there's nothing even slightly hinting towards it.

1. Doesn't matter if there counter hits, Goku still can't maneuver Jiren and takes damage. Roshi sees Goku sliding on the floor all beat up. It's logical for Roshi to teach Goku how to move well.

2. Goku knew UI was a power up. That's why he agreed with Hit about it being a stronger transformation than his current wall blue.

[reecehoward]

1. Every time Jiren attacked he did in fact hit Goku. Goku did indeed need to dodge attacks and stop taking damage. Here comes Roshi...
2. Ultra Instinct brings more power as well but Goku just randomly powering up was not the way to achieve this form.

1. Jiren has hardly hit Goku that much for him to just think that dodging would be his trump. That's not even reasonable to throw that out there. The few hits Jiren has landed on screen have all been counter hits. He isn't really blitzing or anything.

2. No one knows that Ultra Instinct will do that except for Whis and Beerus. Even worse is that there's not a single lime of dialog to suggest that he'll get a powerup by focusing on UI. We all know he will, but in-story there's nothing even slightly hinting towards it.

1. Doesn't matter if there counter hits, Goku still can't maneuver Jiren and takes damage. Roshi sees Goku sliding on the floor all beat up. It's logical for Roshi to teach Goku how to move well.

2. Goku knew UI was a power up. That's why he agreed with Hit about it being a stronger transformation than his current wall blue.

It does matter if they are counter hits. That means that you aren't even seeing what Jiren is capable of on his offensive end. He is tagging you because you are open. You aren't getting a proper gauge on him. So just going "Hey Goku, you need to dodge." Is undermining BOTH Goku AND Jiren. Jiren is only hitting Goku when Goku is too dumbfounded at his lack of power to react properly.

Goku NEVER specified that his idea was UI. How woud he know it was a powerup when thats never shown or stated in the series? He outright shown that his pseudo Kaioken was his idea. Never once did he begin try anything close to UI. He's already seen how it works in function with Beerus. That's bad writing to have Goku try powering up into UI anyway...like Goku's way to smart a fighter to do that with foreknowledge of what UI actually is. So in any case you try to spin this, it makes Goku look like a jackassfor trying every illogical method possible to obtain a dodging technique.

[reecehoward]

I find it funny that the arguement has shifted from "technique>power" to "technique gives more power". Which one is it? Roshi berated Goku for trying to seek out "plain old fighting strength". Goku's method was never questioned by Roshi, AT ALL. If Goku gains another powerup through UI, the result will ultimately be that Goku can now hurt him, which is what makes everything Roshi does and says stupid. Roshi doesn't know Ultra Instinct, nor the fact that it gives a powerboost as well. There is not one single line questioning Goku's method outside of Jiren berating Goku for exchanging stamina for more power. Goku's logic was sound as far as what he needed. The whole point from Roshi was that Goku relies on power, when he should rely on technique. His whole scene is undone the moment Jiren slides past him and wacks his neck. Technique doesn't mean shit in the face of a great difference in power. Again, nowhere in the exchange is Goku's method questioned and there's no hint at all of Goku searching for a way to use UI.

[Miracles]

1. Jiren has hardly hit Goku that much for him to just think that dodging would be his trump. That's not even reasonable to throw that out there. The few hits Jiren has landed on screen have all been counter hits. He isn't really blitzing or anything.

2. No one knows that Ultra Instinct will do that except for Whis and Beerus. Even worse is that there's not a single lime of dialog to suggest that he'll get a powerup by focusing on UI. We all know he will, but in-story there's nothing even slightly hinting towards it.

1. Doesn't matter if there counter hits, Goku still can't maneuver Jiren and takes damage. Roshi sees Goku sliding on the floor all beat up. It's logical for Roshi to teach Goku how to move well.

2. Goku knew UI was a power up. That's why he agreed with Hit about it being a stronger transformation than his current wall blue.

It does matter if they are counter hits. That means that you aren't even seeing what Jiren is capable of on his offensive end. He is tagging you because you are open. You aren't getting a proper gauge on him. So just going "Hey Goku, you need to dodge." Is undermining BOTH Goku AND Jiren. Jiren is only hitting Goku when Goku is too dumbfounded at his lack of power to react properly.

Goku NEVER specified that his idea was UI. How woud he know it was a powerup when thats never shown or stated in the series? He outright shown that his pseudo Kaioken was his idea. Never once did he begin try anything close to UI. He's already seen how it works in function with Beerus. That's bad writing to have Goku try powering up into UI anyway...like Goku's way to smart a fighter to do that with foreknowledge of what UI actually is. So in any case you try to spin this, it makes Goku look like a jackassfor trying every illogical method possible to obtain a dodging technique.

No, Goku told Roshi after using the Kaioken like power up that he still needed some greater power. He didn't have that in mind about overcoming Blue cause he was still in Blue. Reread it.

And Jiren countering does not mean Goku can not counter react via dodging like Roshi did. However, Goku was too focused on power to realize his other principles and this is what Roshi reminded him about.

[Miracles]

I find it funny that the arguement has shifted from "technique>power" to "technique gives more power". Which one is it?

Did you not just read the chapter where it has Karin remind Goku that less wasted movement preserves stamina?
How about Popo teaching a calm spirit could make one bolt like lightning?
Then you even have Whis stating how separating thought from body could increase speed tremendously.
Technique was said to give power in DB. You should read the chapter again.

[reecehoward]

1. Doesn't matter if there counter hits, Goku still can't maneuver Jiren and takes damage. Roshi sees Goku sliding on the floor all beat up. It's logical for Roshi to teach Goku how to move well.

2. Goku knew UI was a power up. That's why he agreed with Hit about it being a stronger transformation than his current wall blue.

It does matter if they are counter hits. That means that you aren't even seeing what Jiren is capable of on his offensive end. He is tagging you because you are open. You aren't getting a proper gauge on him. So just going "Hey Goku, you need to dodge." Is undermining BOTH Goku AND Jiren. Jiren is only hitting Goku when Goku is too dumbfounded at his lack of power to react properly.

Goku NEVER specified that his idea was UI. How woud he know it was a powerup when thats never shown or stated in the series? He outright shown that his pseudo Kaioken was his idea. Never once did he begin try anything close to UI. He's already seen how it works in function with Beerus. That's bad writing to have Goku try powering up into UI anyway...like Goku's way to smart a fighter to do that with foreknowledge of what UI actually is. So in any case you try to spin this, it makes Goku look like a jackassfor trying every illogical method possible to obtain a dodging technique.

No, Goku told Roshi after using the Kaioken like power up that he still needed some greater power. He didn't have that in mind about overcoming Blue cause he was still in Blue. Reread it.

And Jiren countering does not mean Goku can not counter react via dodging like Roshi did. However, Goku was too focused on power to realize his other principles and this is what Roshi reminded him about.

I guess you took that to mean that Goku knew he needed UI, when all he says is he needs a greater power...which means he needs greater power, PHYSICAL POWER, much more than he currently has. He can't hurt the dude. There's nowhere in the manga where Goku is told that mastering UI would give him a power boost. So how are you and others even correlating the two, when nothing in story bridges that gap prior to it actually happening?!

One would think that a counter shot is much easier to land if your opponents attacks aren't even hurting you or causing you to lose your ground. Jiren is able to take the hit and throw his in. If Goku had the power to hurt Jiren, there'd be no counter.lol It'd be different if Jiren was actively doing this. He's doing this all very passively. So Goku needs a major speed boost along with a power boost, or else the fight will end the same way for him that iit did for Roshi unless that physical gap is closed.

[reecehoward]

I find it funny that the arguement has shifted from "technique>power" to "technique gives more power". Which one is it?

Did you not just read the chapter where it has Karin remind Goku that less wasted movement preserves stamina?
How about Popo teaching a calm spirit could make one bolt like lightning?
Then you even have Whis stating how separating thought from body could increase speed tremendously.
Technique was said to give power in DB. You should read the chapter again.

None of that states that it will give Goku more power.lol All of that is about movement. Now you are just twisting words to fit your argument rather than just making a factual one.

[Miracles]

It does matter if they are counter hits. That means that you aren't even seeing what Jiren is capable of on his offensive end. He is tagging you because you are open. You aren't getting a proper gauge on him. So just going "Hey Goku, you need to dodge." Is undermining BOTH Goku AND Jiren. Jiren is only hitting Goku when Goku is too dumbfounded at his lack of power to react properly.

Goku NEVER specified that his idea was UI. How woud he know it was a powerup when thats never shown or stated in the series? He outright shown that his pseudo Kaioken was his idea. Never once did he begin try anything close to UI. He's already seen how it works in function with Beerus. That's bad writing to have Goku try powering up into UI anyway...like Goku's way to smart a fighter to do that with foreknowledge of what UI actually is. So in any case you try to spin this, it makes Goku look like a jackassfor trying every illogical method possible to obtain a dodging technique.

No, Goku told Roshi after using the Kaioken like power up that he still needed some greater power. He didn't have that in mind about overcoming Blue cause he was still in Blue. Reread it.

And Jiren countering does not mean Goku can not counter react via dodging like Roshi did. However, Goku was too focused on power to realize his other principles and this is what Roshi reminded him about.

I guess you took that to mean that Goku knew he needed UI, when all he says is he needs a greater power...which means he needs greater power, PHYSICAL POWER, much more than he currently has. He can't hurt the dude. There's nowhere in the manga where Goku is told that mastering UI would give him a power boost. So how are you and others even correlating the two, when nothing in story bridges that gap prior to it actually happening?!

One would think that a counter shot is much easier to land if your opponents attacks aren't even hurting you or causing you to lose your ground. Jiren is able to take the hit and throw his in. If Goku had the power to hurt Jiren, there'd be no counter.lol It'd be different if Jiren was actively doing this. He's doing this all very passively. So Goku needs a major speed boost along with a power boost, or else the fight will end the same way for him that iit did for Roshi unless that physical gap is closed.

In chapter 35 Goku agrees with Hit that there is a transformation higher than Blue. Chapter 39, On page 21, Goku tells Jiren this is not his limit, there is a wall he needs to overcome. On page 41, when he reaches UI, he confirms to Jiren that there is nothing left on the table after being told he will meet his end in that state. Goku attained UI and was able to dodge Jiren's attack after remembering Roshi's wisdom. You got to read the flow of story better.

I find it funny that the arguement has shifted from "technique>power" to "technique gives more power". Which one is it?

Did you not just read the chapter where it has Karin remind Goku that less wasted movement preserves stamina?
How about Popo teaching a calm spirit could make one bolt like lightning?
Then you even have Whis stating how separating thought from body could increase speed tremendously.
Technique was said to give power in DB. You should read the chapter again.

None of that states that it will give Goku more power.lol All of that is about movement. Now you are just twisting words to fit your argument rather than just making a factual one.

Those techniques showed that they increase speed which is always part of the "power "package in Dragonball. So it is a fact.

[prince212]

So next week volume 7 is gonna be release in Japan and is supposed to have a tori - toyo interview.. i think is the critical point for them to clarify if the super manga ends where super anime did or what’s gonna happen . Looks like movie adaptation will be for sure , the question is if will be part of super manga or separate like R.o.F .
We can be close to the manga end .. the only info after the anime ended was vague about it .

[reecehoward]

No, Goku told Roshi after using the Kaioken like power up that he still needed some greater power. He didn't have that in mind about overcoming Blue cause he was still in Blue. Reread it.

And Jiren countering does not mean Goku can not counter react via dodging like Roshi did. However, Goku was too focused on power to realize his other principles and this is what Roshi reminded him about.

I guess you took that to mean that Goku knew he needed UI, when all he says is he needs a greater power...which means he needs greater power, PHYSICAL POWER, much more than he currently has. He can't hurt the dude. There's nowhere in the manga where Goku is told that mastering UI would give him a power boost. So how are you and others even correlating the two, when nothing in story bridges that gap prior to it actually happening?!

One would think that a counter shot is much easier to land if your opponents attacks aren't even hurting you or causing you to lose your ground. Jiren is able to take the hit and throw his in. If Goku had the power to hurt Jiren, there'd be no counter.lol It'd be different if Jiren was actively doing this. He's doing this all very passively. So Goku needs a major speed boost along with a power boost, or else the fight will end the same way for him that iit did for Roshi unless that physical gap is closed.

In chapter 35 Goku agrees with Hit that there is a transformation higher than Blue. Chapter 39, On page 21, Goku tells Jiren this is not his limit, there is a wall he needs to overcome. On page 41, when he reaches UI, he confirms to Jiren that there is nothing left on the table after being told he will meet his end in that state. Goku attained UI and was able to dodge Jiren's attack after remembering Roshi's wisdom. You got to read the flow of story better.

Did you not just read the chapter where it has Karin remind Goku that less wasted movement preserves stamina?
How about Popo teaching a calm spirit could make one bolt like lightning?
Then you even have Whis stating how separating thought from body could increase speed tremendously.
Technique was said to give power in DB. You should read the chapter again.

None of that states that it will give Goku more power.lol All of that is about movement. Now you are just twisting words to fit your argument rather than just making a factual one.

Those techniques showed that they increase speed which is always part of the "power "package in Dragonball. So it is a fact.

Once again, Goku knows he needs more power. He never hinted that it was UI(which we all assumed), not even once. He outright displays that his idea was something similar to kaioken. Once that failed, he was at a loss. Nowhere did he so much as harken back to Beerus using it or his teaching with Whis.

You are correct in a sense, as those techniques gave him a greater understanding of how to bring out his spiritual power. It wasn't through the technique though, it was through the journey of acquiring those skills, his training, that raised his power. There is no journey here. So that doesn't apply. And still, he doesn't even know that it will do that or else he'd be focused on his movements because Goku's rather logical in figuring out techniques. Correlating Goku's comments to gaining more power through UI to what he's been doing to get there is making Goku out to be a complete moron. The Goku I know isn't dumb enough to try to power up into UI when he has outright seen it(Omen) in action.

[prince212]

Once again, Goku knows he needs more power. .

I’m not gonna answer you , roshi will.

[Miracles]

Once again, Goku knows he needs more power. He never hinted that it was UI(which we all assumed), not even once. He outright displays that his idea was something similar to kaioken. Once that failed, he was at a loss. Nowhere did he so much as harken back to Beerus using it or his teaching with Whis.

Jiren asks Goku if this is the wall he had overcome after tapping into UI. Goku states "PROBABLY," which means he is almost certain that was what he was aiming for!-Pg. 41 ch.39
Jiren then adds "nothing else left on the table right?" Goku confirms with "right, time to settle this." -Pg. 41; Ch. 39

You're factually wrong.

You are correct in a sense, as those techniques gave him a greater understanding of how to bring out his spiritual power. It wasn't through the technique though, it was through the journey of acquiring those skills, his training, that raised his power. There is no journey here. So that doesn't apply. And still, he doesn't even know that it will do that or else he'd be focused on his movements because Goku's rather logical in figuring out techniques. Correlating Goku's comments to gaining more power through UI to what he's been doing to get there is making Goku out to be a complete moron. The Goku I know isn't dumb enough to try to power up into UI when he has outright seen it(Omen) in action.

Yes, the journey was already traveled. That's why Roshi made Goku rethink those techniques that he learned on his journey and apply them. I think you need to read the chapter more carefully.

[reecehoward]

Once again, Goku knows he needs more power. .

I’m not gonna answer you , roshi will.

O...k... It says exactly what I'm saying.smh Roshi berates him for pursuing "plain old fighting strength". THAT makes no sense if Jiren is able to beat HIM with PLAIN OLD FIGHTING STRENGTH. Roshi doesn't even know U.I., so how could he think his technique will help Goku if supposedly, he knows Jiren is holding back on him as well as Goku? Are you insinuating that Roshi knows UI will give him the power he needs? How the fuck does he know that if he doesn't know how strong Jiren is?