Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[LightBing]

You guys know Goku could push a boulder probably weighting tons even before the 21st TB, right?
Guess Mr.Toriyama is also "incompetent"...

This to say that breaking down lifting power to determine strength specifically into numbers is ridiculous. All Toyotarõ implied was that Kale in SSJ was stronger than Vegeta in SSJ that's it.

[Marlowe89]

You guys know Goku could push a boulder probably weighting tons even before the 21st TB, right?
Guess Mr.Toriyama is also "incompetent"...

This to say that breaking down lifting power to determine strength specifically into numbers is ridiculous. All Toyotarõ implied was that Kale in SSJ was stronger than Vegeta in SSJ that's it.

Not to mention said boulders from early DB would easily come to hundreds of tons if we were just eyeballing panels with specific weight units in mind, which obviously doesn't begin to jive with Goku's training on Kaio's planet. Manga artists don't measure visual "feats" to that degree; least of all Toriyama. They draw something huge to convey "very heavy" objects and that's literally where it ends.

Dialogue always takes precedence over everything else, because that's what the authors expressly intend. They're comic writers first and foremost with a layman perspective on a lot of things, not experts on the metric system. It's baffling to me that this has to be explained at all.

[1345521]

You guys know Goku could push a boulder probably weighting tons even before the 21st TB, right?
Guess Mr.Toriyama is also "incompetent"...

This to say that breaking down lifting power to determine strength specifically into numbers is ridiculous. All Toyotarõ implied was that Kale in SSJ was stronger than Vegeta in SSJ that's it.

Not to mention said boulders from early DB would easily come to hundreds of tons if we were just eyeballing panels with specific weight units in mind, which obviously doesn't begin to jive with Goku's training on Kaio's planet. Manga artists don't measure visual "feats" to that degree; least of all Toriyama. They draw something huge to convey "very heavy" objects and that's literally where it ends.

Dialogue always takes precedence over everything else, because that's what the authors expressly intend. They're comic writers first and foremost with a layman perspective on a lot of things, not experts on the metric system. It's baffling to me that this has to be explained at all.

Exactly you two -
And even if you want to be critical, it's never stated x times multiplayer dosent mean x times lifting ability so no contradiction. This is an non issue, ssj vegeta can't lift 1,000 tons while ssj kale can. Simple.

[Sora Saiyan]

You guys know Goku could push a boulder probably weighting tons even before the 21st TB, right?
Guess Mr.Toriyama is also "incompetent"...

This to say that breaking down lifting power to determine strength specifically into numbers is ridiculous. All Toyotarõ implied was that Kale in SSJ was stronger than Vegeta in SSJ that's it.

Not to mention said boulders from early DB would easily come to hundreds of tons if we were just eyeballing panels with specific weight units in mind, which obviously doesn't begin to jive with Goku's training on Kaio's planet. Manga artists don't measure visual "feats" to that degree; least of all Toriyama. They draw something huge to convey "very heavy" objects and that's literally where it ends.

Dialogue always takes precedence over everything else, because that's what the authors expressly intend. They're comic writers first and foremost with a layman perspective on a lot of things, not experts on the metric system. It's baffling to me that this has to be explained at all.

Exactly you two -
And even if you want to be critical, it's never stated x times multiplayer dosent mean x times lifting ability so no contradiction. This is an non issue, ssj vegeta can't lift 1,000 tons while ssj kale can. Simple.

Yeah these are basically the points when it comes to lifting strength in DB.
I know we have the SEG that states that the reason Goku’s weight training in heaven was so difficult was because he was flying, but that still doesn’t gel well with all the other strength showings throughout the series.

DB characters have great durability and striking strength. Their lifting strength on the other hand isn’t all that impressive. For some reason they can take, and give these insane universe levelling punches, blasts and all sorts, but they can’t even lift a city. Lifting strength just isn’t all that in DB. Heck whenever the manga has actually given us numbers on the matter it actually pretty consistent with what they lift later. There’s the Renault 5 Turbo thing, but Toriyama never gave a weight in the manga.

[RandomGuy96]

Can someone clarify something for me? Is it generally agreed that the manga versions of the Super characters are much weaker than the anime ones and pretty much in line with their Buu arc levels by the time of the first tournament?

[Bergamo]

Can someone clarify something for me? Is it generally agreed that the manga versions of the Super characters are much weaker than the anime ones and pretty much in line with their Buu arc levels by the time of the first tournament?

That's true(besides Goku and Vegeta obviously).

[RandomGuy96]

Can someone clarify something for me? Is it generally agreed that the manga versions of the Super characters are much weaker than the anime ones and pretty much in line with their Buu arc levels by the time of the first tournament?

That's true(besides Goku and Vegeta obviously).

Why besides Goku and Vegeta? Is there any implication that they have super-strong bases by then in the manga? Like I know for example that Piccolo underwent no notable power-up yet he still exchanges blows with Frost who's stronger than base Goku.

[Bergamo]

Can someone clarify something for me? Is it generally agreed that the manga versions of the Super characters are much weaker than the anime ones and pretty much in line with their Buu arc levels by the time of the first tournament?

That's true(besides Goku and Vegeta obviously).

Why besides Goku and Vegeta? Is there any implication that they have super-strong bases by then in the manga? Like I know for example that Piccolo underwent no notable power-up yet he still exchanges blows with Frost who's stronger than base Goku.

I just meant that Goku and Vegeta are stronger because they have SSB now.

[RandomGuy96]

I just meant that Goku and Vegeta are stronger because they have SSB now.

Oh, I meant besides their new transformations of course. If that's true, and that's the impression I got from reading the first couple of arcs, then the villains prior to Jiren are all pretty weak, aren't they? Except for fusion and zenkais I don't recall any of them surpassing SS2 Goku, bar Hit's brief power-up.

[Bergamo]

I just meant that Goku and Vegeta are stronger because they have SSB now.

Oh, I meant besides their new transformations of course. If that's true, and that's the impression I got from reading the first couple of arcs, then the villains prior to Jiren are all pretty weak, aren't they? Except for fusion and zenkais I don't recall any of them surpassing SS2 Goku, bar Hit's brief power-up.

It's not that everyone is weaker, it's more that Goku is stronger. Goku and Vegeta in MSSB are to the point where they can defeat fusion characters and make Beerus take them seriously.

[RandomGuy96]

I just meant that Goku and Vegeta are stronger because they have SSB now.

Oh, I meant besides their new transformations of course. If that's true, and that's the impression I got from reading the first couple of arcs, then the villains prior to Jiren are all pretty weak, aren't they? Except for fusion and zenkais I don't recall any of them surpassing SS2 Goku, bar Hit's brief power-up.

It's not that everyone is weaker, it's more that Goku is stronger. Goku and Vegeta in MSSB are to the point where they can defeat fusion characters and make Beerus take them seriously.

I thought you just said he hadn't gotten significantly stronger outside of new forms. Did he undergo a random multi-fold increase right before the Future Trunks arc?

[PFM18]

Can someone clarify something for me? Is it generally agreed that the manga versions of the Super characters are much weaker than the anime ones and pretty much in line with their Buu arc levels by the time of the first tournament?

Yes. Exactly. That is correct. In terms of their base forms.

As far as I understand things this is how the power is structured between mediums:

Anime: super strong base forms, "weak" transformations
Manga: weak base forms, super strong transformations.

[Bergamo]

Oh, I meant besides their new transformations of course. If that's true, and that's the impression I got from reading the first couple of arcs, then the villains prior to Jiren are all pretty weak, aren't they? Except for fusion and zenkais I don't recall any of them surpassing SS2 Goku, bar Hit's brief power-up.

It's not that everyone is weaker, it's more that Goku is stronger. Goku and Vegeta in MSSB are to the point where they can defeat fusion characters and make Beerus take them seriously.

I thought you just said he hadn't gotten significantly stronger outside of new forms. Did he undergo a random multi-fold increase right before the Future Trunks arc?

His new forms are that strong.

[RandomGuy96]

His new forms are that strong.

My mistake, I missed the "B".

[ekrolo2]

Can someone clarify something for me? Is it generally agreed that the manga versions of the Super characters are much weaker than the anime ones and pretty much in line with their Buu arc levels by the time of the first tournament?

I certainly get the impression that's the case. In the manga, they still use SS2 Gohan from the Cell Games as a meaningful measuring stick when comparing it to Trunks' SS2 and Trunks is capable of matching Goku in SS3.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Can someone clarify something for me? Is it generally agreed that the manga versions of the Super characters are much weaker than the anime ones and pretty much in line with their Buu arc levels by the time of the first tournament?

Yes. Exactly. That is correct. In terms of their base forms.

As far as I understand things this is how the power is structured between mediums:

Anime: super strong base forms, "weak" transformations
Manga: weak base forms, super strong transformations.

Goku vs Hit implies regular SSJB is 10-15x stronger than regular SSJ, so the Godly transformations aren't exactly "Super strong".

[PFM18]

Can someone clarify something for me? Is it generally agreed that the manga versions of the Super characters are much weaker than the anime ones and pretty much in line with their Buu arc levels by the time of the first tournament?

Yes. Exactly. That is correct. In terms of their base forms.

As far as I understand things this is how the power is structured between mediums:

Anime: super strong base forms, "weak" transformations
Manga: weak base forms, super strong transformations.

Goku vs Hit implies regular SSJB is 10-15x stronger than regular SSJ, so the Godly transformations aren't exactly "Super strong".

Well @shadowfox87 came up with a pretty detailed analysis coming up with a multiplier for SSG in the manga as being 400,000x base and CSSB is atleast 10x that. And, unlike the anime, there isn't any indication of the SSG multiplier being toned town after he used it in the ritual. AKA after the associated "god boost" if he transformed after he "absorbed" the power it clearly didn't yield the same boost in the anime but this is never indicated in the manga so it holds to continue to have the same outrageously large SSG multiplier since in the manga iteration there is no scene where Goku "absorbs" SSG.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Well @shadowfox87 came up with a pretty detailed analysis coming up with a multiplier for SSG in the manga as being 400,000x base and CSSB is atleast 10x that. And, unlike the anime, there isn't any indication of the SSG multiplier being toned town after he used it in the ritual. AKA after the associated "god boost" if he transformed after he "absorbed" the power it clearly didn't yield the same boost in the anime but this is never indicated in the manga so it holds to continue to have the same outrageously large SSG multiplier since in the manga iteration there is no scene where Goku "absorbs" SSG.

SSJ Goku fighting evenly with the Hit who beat the shit out of <10% SSJB Vegeta implies otherwise.

Can you link me the analysis?

[MoscoSama]

SSB could still be 50 x SSG in the manga as well.

All we know is that Vegeta was at less than 10% and SSG Goku was stronger than whatever percentage Vegeta was at.

Vegeta could have been at 1% of SSB full power
SSG Goku could have been 2% of SSB full power

Voila SSB is now 50 x SSG

[PFM18]

Well @shadowfox87 came up with a pretty detailed analysis coming up with a multiplier for SSG in the manga as being 400,000x base and CSSB is atleast 10x that. And, unlike the anime, there isn't any indication of the SSG multiplier being toned town after he used it in the ritual. AKA after the associated "god boost" if he transformed after he "absorbed" the power it clearly didn't yield the same boost in the anime but this is never indicated in the manga so it holds to continue to have the same outrageously large SSG multiplier since in the manga iteration there is no scene where Goku "absorbs" SSG.

SSJ Goku fighting evenly with the Hit who beat the shit out of <10% SSJB Vegeta implies otherwise.

Can you link me the analysis?

This was SSG Goku fighting evenly with Hit not SSJ I believe.

I thought that he had posted it somewhere but I realize now that I'm pretty sure it was just in our private conversations. He and I are the number crunching types so we kinda talked about what multipliers we came up with. So I'll just repost his PM to me:

Hey,

I noticed that both of us agree that SSG > SSJ3 Vegito since Goku said fusion would stand no chance against Beerus. If you truly believe this, then I wonder if you agree with this:
Base Vegito > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku (Buu saga)
Base Vegito > SSJ3 Goku (Daizenshuu 7 confirmed, post Buu saga, pre BoG)
Base Vegito > 1.5x SSJ3 Goku (~50% stronger)
Base Vegito > 1.5x 400x Base Goku

SSG > SSJ3 Vegito (based on Goku's statement in DBS anime and movie)
SSG > 1.66x SSJ3 Vegito (5/3% or 66.67% stronger)
SSG > 1.66x 400x 1.5x 400x Base Goku
SSG > 398,400x Base Goku
SSG ~ 400,000x Base Goku

If you agree with this, then the difference between SSG and Base is magnitudes higher than anything else. This is why it really just doesn't make sense to say that Base Goku (ToP) > SSG Goku (BoG) imo. You are free to disagree, but I just wanted to show you this because I did find something that both of us agree on and I took that reference point and expanded on its logic.

I know you are still going to use the whole SSJ Goku vs Beerus in space scene to justify that post-BoG Goku absorbed the power of SSG and somehow converted that god ki into regular ki to make his Base near that level. For me, that entire scene is inconsistent with later events and due to it, I don't count it. Same as the fillers with Potafu arc and Goku vs Beerus in Monaka costume.