Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ssbgoku]

Ok guys I just have watched episode with english subtitles and I got better understanding of what happened. so here how I think it goes:

Picoolo must be at least buutenks tier as he was matching base gohan, who at least should be as strong as utimate gohan buu arc and most likely stronger a bit because that the way dragon ball super works. ssj gohan would be at least buuhan tier. However watching Piccolo's short display of abilties and feats and I am humble to say Picoolo is buuhan tier now.

Frost seems to be around rof frieeza except golden form. so here how I see it:

vados/whis - 15
beerus - 10
champa - 9.5
monaca/hit ? - 8.5
ssb goku/vegeta - 8
golden frieza - 7.5
ssj goku - 7
Final form frost - 6.5
base goku - 6
final form frieza - 5.5
Assault form frost - 4.5
weakened depleted final form frost - 2.5
Piccolo makankeskopo(beam attack) - 2.4
bog arc ssj vegito - 1.5
first form frost - 1
botamo - 0.8
ssj gohan/buu arc ssj vegito - 1
Picoolo - 0.4
base gohan - 0.35

That of course if we are using god scale. Anyway one thing is clear for me Both Picoolo and Gohan should be now at least ultimate gohan buu arc tier... nothing less because that would be pointless so they would one shot ssj2 tier buu arc and even ssj3 gotenks or ssj3 goku.

Still even then it retconn the gap between ssj vegito and beerus. Simple know I understand that Ssj vegito would be at least > rage vegeta then so at least 0.5 of beerus, but if that was rage vegeta then I see vegito being even 1. bog arc would be 1.5

[DragonHermit]

Frost is nowhere near that 1-15 scale. Frost is like Kid Buu level. Him and Piccolo aren't even scratching the 1 in that scale.

[Bullza]

Well we know the characters don't like to go all out from the start because Goku didn't do that against Botamo or possibly Frost. Frost didn't go all out against Goku from the start and even when told to he still didn't.

That's true even back in the original series and Z when Goku fought Tien wearing the weights and Kabito had to urge Gohan to transform into a SSJ2.

They're likely just going as far as what is needed to get them the win and that's it. I'll bet we'll see SSJB Goku or Vegeta when it's time for them to fight Hit.

[ZombieVito]

This episode did little to change my power levels. If Vegeta is in fact using Super Saiyan against Frost then it means Final form Frost is still superior to his Assault form, this will mean that Piccolo should be over that form as well. Maybe a 1 in the god scale.

Vados: 15.5
Whis: 15
Beerus: 10
Champa: 9.8
Monaka: 9
SSB Goku and Vegeta: 8.5
SSJ Goku and Vegeta: 5
Final form Frost: 3
Assault form Frost: 0.9
Goku and Vegeta: 0.85
Piccolo and Gohan: 0.50
Frost: 0.30
Botamo: 0.085

[ssbgoku]

Frost is nowhere near that 1-15 scale. Frost is like Kid Buu level. Him and Piccolo aren't even scratching the 1 in that scale.

But if goku is in Saiyan beyond god state and so is vegeta then at least they are 6 on god scale. If that is true Final form frost is > base goku

Of course he was holding back and was pretty beaten up by ssj goku(gap should be big) so it would make Frost 6.2 - 6.5 while ssj goku would be 7 or even 7.5

Keeping that in mind Picoolo would be at least 0.5(5% of beerus power) to even make his beam attack enough to mortally hurt Weaken final form frost.

Also Frost would be at least above 10% of beerus power which was needed to one shot rage vegeta and keeping in mind piccolo didn't have big gain or akira just doesn't care about anyone else besides goku and vegeta then ssj vegito must be close to 10% of beerus power. That would make sense.

Well we know the characters don't like to go all out from the start because Goku didn't do that against Botamo or possibly Frost. Frost didn't go all out against Goku from the start and even when told to he still didn't.

That's true even back in the original series and Z when Goku fought Tien wearing the weights and Kabito had to urge Gohan to transform into a SSJ2.

They're likely just going as far as what is needed to get them the win and that's it. I'll bet we'll see SSJB Goku or Vegeta when it's time for them to fight Hit.

That true, but it depends if god scale is used or no. If it is, then I see my power scale leggit , if they are not using it or just holding back like 50% of base power for no reason then lol. Well Picoolo must be at least buu arc ultimate gohan tier, although feats seem laughable to what ssj vegito has shown against buuhan... that hype

[namekiansaiyan]

This episode did little to change my power levels. If Vegeta is in fact using Super Saiyan against Frost then it means Final form Frost is still superior to his Assault form, this will mean that Piccolo should be over that form as well. Maybe a 1 in the god scale.

Vados: 15.5
Whis: 15
Beerus: 10
Champa: 9.8
Monaka: 9
SSB Goku and Vegeta: 8.5
SSJ Goku and Vegeta: 5
Final form Frost: 3
Assault form Frost: 0.9
Goku and Vegeta: 0.85
Piccolo and Gohan: 0.50
Frost: 0.30
Botamo: 0.085

Piccolo and Botamo are way to weak on this list, if this list was true then one punch by Frost would have knocked Piccolo out and he would not be able to guard with one hand like he was even if Frost is a bit tired, he is not as nearly beat up as people think he was probably lying to Piccolo.

[ZombieVito]

Yeah you are probably right but I want to wait and see if Vegeta uses Super Saiyan against Frost.

As far as Botamo goes, he did nothing impressive aside from his ability. Believe it or not where I have him he is stronger than Pure Boo, almost reaching Evil Boo.

[LowRyder2005]

The big question still one: is there any reason as of now to believe that Piccolo is stronger than Mr. Buu? In the episode there's not even a hint of a "hey Piccolo, you got a lot stronger, you are stronger than Buu". Compare it now to what it's said in episode 30: Good Buu is defined as "crazy strong", and when they can't call Uub because he is just a newborn Goku says... "oh, well, that leaves us with Piccolo".
Fast-forward to what is seen in the tournament: everyone panics when Good Buu is unable to compete (when he should be to a Kid Buu/ Gohan-Buu level opponent); some time later, Piccolo fights and he is still treated like fodder.

Like I said they'd be around the same level, yet Piccolo undergoes some "vanilla style training on Earth with a very out-of-shape Gohan" - in comparison, it was established that Freeza had genetics on his side. It's pretty far-fetched to think he could reach a level like that with some sparring.
The Makankosappo's hole could be much more easily, in comparison at least, be explained with Champa using a small percentage of his powers because he had underestimated everyone's level.

I'm still adamant it'd be a lot if he got around Super Perfect Cell's level. Whatever power up he had, everyone acted and kept acting like Mr. Buu could have managed something in this tournament while Piccolo was outclassed and second-rate.

[DragonHermit]

But if goku is in Saiyan beyond god state and so is vegeta then at least they are 6 on god scale. If that is true Final form frost is > base goku

He's not in Saiyan beyond God. If he was, he would be transformed into SS Blue. What we learned is that you can turn God Ki on and off. I thought once you gained God Ki, you were Saiyan beyond God 100% of the time, but it seems not to be the case.

SbG is 50x weaker than SS Blue which is like 8 on that scale, meaning SbG would be like 0.4, and he's not even using that.

[ZombieVito]

The big question still one: is there any reason as of now to believe that Piccolo is stronger than Mr. Buu? In the episode there's not even a hint of a "hey Piccolo, you got a lot stronger, you are stronger than Buu". Compare it now to what it's said in episode 30: Good Buu is defined as "crazy strong", and when they can't call Uub because he is just a newborn Goku says... "oh, well, that leaves us with Piccolo".
Fast-forward to what is seen in the tournament: everyone panics when Good Buu is unable to compete (when he should be to a Kid Buu/ Gohan-Buu level opponent); some time later, Piccolo fights and he is still treated like fodder.

Like I said they'd be around the same level, yet Piccolo undergoes some "vanilla style training on Earth with a very out-of-shape Gohan" - in comparison, it was established that Freeza had genetics on his side. It's pretty far-fetched to think he could reach a level like that with some sparring.
The Makankosappo's hole could be much more easily, in comparison at least, be explained with Champa using a small percentage of his powers because he had underestimated everyone's level.

I'm still adamant it'd be a lot if he got around Super Perfect Cell's level. Whatever power up he had, everyone acted and kept acting like Mr. Buu could have managed something in this tournament while Piccolo was outclassed and second-rate.

All those concerns are easily explained.

Goku and Vegeta did not know that Piccolo was training with Gohan and they all freaked out because it's basically a 4 vs 5 tournament now.

The whole training sequence with Picolo and Gohan should already prove both of them are over Good Boo by a good margin.

[Helios518]

But if goku is in Saiyan beyond god state and so is vegeta then at least they are 6 on god scale. If that is true Final form frost is > base goku

He's not in Saiyan beyond God. If he was, he would be transformed into SS Blue. What we learned is that you can turn God Ki on and off. I thought once you gained God Ki, you were Saiyan beyond God 100% of the time, but it seems not to be the case.

So Goku didn't use Saiyan beyond God against 4th form Frieza, If Goku's god ki was on then how come his power was sensed by beings without God ki during RoF?

[ZombieVito]

Again Goku never had god ki in base or Super Saiyan. Those states just got stronger because of the ritual.

Turning his god ki on and off explanation does not work.

[DragonHermit]

So Goku didn't use Saiyan beyond God against 4th form Frieza, If Goku's god ki was on then how come his power was sensed by beings without God ki during RoF?

I don't know whether he used SbG vs Frieza, but most likely he hasn't used here yet. He probably turned on God Ki just as he was transforming vs. Frieza.

Again Goku never had god ki in base or Super Saiyan. Those states just got stronger because of the ritual.

Turning his god ki on and off explanation does not work.

What do you mean never had? In this tournament or ever?

If he can transform into SSJ without going SSBlue it means he can turn God Ki on and off, or at least suppress it immensely.

[Bullza]

If Goku wasn't using God power then I'd say Piccolo was perhaps Buu saga SSJ2-SSJ3 level.

He was possibly somewhere between Semi Perfect Cell and a Cell Jr at the Cell Games. They never really made a big deal out of his power after that but by the Resurrection F saga I suppose he could be around Perfect Cell's level.

Then yeah with 8 months of training between SSJ2 and SSJ3 Goku. Given that the Special Beam Cannon seemingly has triple the power of the user I could see him being strong enough to kill SSJ1 or SSJ2 Gotenks or something with it.

[dbzfan7]

The big question still one: is there any reason as of now to believe that Piccolo is stronger than Mr. Buu? In the episode there's not even a hint of a "hey Piccolo, you got a lot stronger, you are stronger than Buu". Compare it now to what it's said in episode 30: Good Buu is defined as "crazy strong", and when they can't call Uub because he is just a newborn Goku says... "oh, well, that leaves us with Piccolo".
Fast-forward to what is seen in the tournament: everyone panics when Good Buu is unable to compete (when he should be to a Kid Buu/ Gohan-Buu level opponent); some time later, Piccolo fights and he is still treated like fodder.

Like I said they'd be around the same level, yet Piccolo undergoes some "vanilla style training on Earth with a very out-of-shape Gohan" - in comparison, it was established that Freeza had genetics on his side. It's pretty far-fetched to think he could reach a level like that with some sparring.
The Makankosappo's hole could be much more easily, in comparison at least, be explained with Champa using a small percentage of his powers because he had underestimated everyone's level.

I'm still adamant it'd be a lot if he got around Super Perfect Cell's level. Whatever power up he had, everyone acted and kept acting like Mr. Buu could have managed something in this tournament while Piccolo was outclassed and second-rate.

Agree with all of this. I'm not going to wank levels, or else I guess I can say that SSJ/SSJ2 Gohan is really damn strong now. But I ain't gonna wank Gohan since I have no idea how he correlates to anything. In my opinion he's probably not as strong as his Boo arc self yet.

It's better to not needlessly inflate power levels as much as possible, and look at the lowest possibility first.

[buutenks]

But if goku is in Saiyan beyond god state and so is vegeta then at least they are 6 on god scale. If that is true Final form frost is > base goku

He's not in Saiyan beyond God. If he was, he would be transformed into SS Blue. What we learned is that you can turn God Ki on and off. I thought once you gained God Ki, you were Saiyan beyond God 100% of the time, but it seems not to be the case.

So Goku didn't use Saiyan beyond God against 4th form Frieza, If Goku's god ki was on then how come his power was sensed by beings without God ki during RoF?

he means to say goku isnt channeling the power.He is using his older power pre god power up.

Z ssj power from the buu saga etc.

Atleast,this way we dont need to amp everyone to god tier.

[LowRyder2005]

The big question still one: is there any reason as of now to believe that Piccolo is stronger than Mr. Buu? In the episode there's not even a hint of a "hey Piccolo, you got a lot stronger, you are stronger than Buu". Compare it now to what it's said in episode 30: Good Buu is defined as "crazy strong", and when they can't call Uub because he is just a newborn Goku says... "oh, well, that leaves us with Piccolo".
Fast-forward to what is seen in the tournament: everyone panics when Good Buu is unable to compete (when he should be to a Kid Buu/ Gohan-Buu level opponent); some time later, Piccolo fights and he is still treated like fodder.

Like I said they'd be around the same level, yet Piccolo undergoes some "vanilla style training on Earth with a very out-of-shape Gohan" - in comparison, it was established that Freeza had genetics on his side. It's pretty far-fetched to think he could reach a level like that with some sparring.
The Makankosappo's hole could be much more easily, in comparison at least, be explained with Champa using a small percentage of his powers because he had underestimated everyone's level.

I'm still adamant it'd be a lot if he got around Super Perfect Cell's level. Whatever power up he had, everyone acted and kept acting like Mr. Buu could have managed something in this tournament while Piccolo was outclassed and second-rate.

All those concerns are easily explained.

Goku and Vegeta did not know that Piccolo was training with Gohan and they all freaked out because it's basically a 4 vs 5 tournament now.

The whole training sequence with Picolo and Gohan should already prove both of them are over Good Boo by a good margin.

It really doesn't, since Gohan is just seen sparring with Piccolo and there is no way to trace a comparison with Mr. Buu.

If he had some results, it remains to be seen, but it mostly looks like he is "regaining the power he lost" and he's still a far cry from his Buu Saga self, who remains his all-time highest power level.
If that wasn't the case, he wouldn't have said "I'm having Piccolo-san retrain me from scratch", but "I've had Piccolo san re-train me from scratch [and became stronger than ever]". The whole sequence seems to suggest Gohan is still simply "getting back on his feet"; especially, it doesn't even remotely suggest he as at his highest peak - never minding getting to a level like Gohan-Buu.

[ZombieVito]

So Goku didn't use Saiyan beyond God against 4th form Frieza, If Goku's god ki was on then how come his power was sensed by beings without God ki during RoF?

I don't know whether he used SbG vs Frieza, but most likely he hasn't used here yet. He probably turned on God Ki just as he was transforming vs. Frieza.

Again Goku never had god ki in base or Super Saiyan. Those states just got stronger because of the ritual.

Turning his god ki on and off explanation does not work.

What do you mean never had? In this tournament or ever?

If he can transform into SSJ without going SSBlue it means he can turn God Ki on and off, or at least suppress it immensely.

He only had god ki while transformed in SSG or SSB.

We still don't know why or how they are transforming Super Saiyan.

[ssbgoku]

All those concerns are easily explained.

Goku and Vegeta did not know that Piccolo was training with Gohan and they all freaked out because it's basically a 4 vs 5 tournament now.

The whole training sequence with Picolo and Gohan should already prove both of them are over Good Boo by a good margin.

Exactly that what I think, especially the bold one. The traning would make no sense unless gohan came back to at least his buu arc ultimate power level which means picoolo at least too.

Now about good buu, well he is powerfull and also has insane regeneration and stamina so maybe in the end he would be even more valuable to wear down opponent then ultimate gohan tier. Also maybe there is reason behind buu going into hybernation state... maybe the longer buu sleep the bigger his power up raises... assumption but could be possible as Akira stated buu is nature force which is hybernating to wake up after some time and we know babidi forcefully awoken him, so it would be cool to meet buu in universe 6 if he is hypernating until now, he would be huge threat and ridiculous powerfull.

[dbzfan7]

The big question still one: is there any reason as of now to believe that Piccolo is stronger than Mr. Buu? In the episode there's not even a hint of a "hey Piccolo, you got a lot stronger, you are stronger than Buu". Compare it now to what it's said in episode 30: Good Buu is defined as "crazy strong", and when they can't call Uub because he is just a newborn Goku says... "oh, well, that leaves us with Piccolo".
Fast-forward to what is seen in the tournament: everyone panics when Good Buu is unable to compete (when he should be to a Kid Buu/ Gohan-Buu level opponent); some time later, Piccolo fights and he is still treated like fodder.

Like I said they'd be around the same level, yet Piccolo undergoes some "vanilla style training on Earth with a very out-of-shape Gohan" - in comparison, it was established that Freeza had genetics on his side. It's pretty far-fetched to think he could reach a level like that with some sparring.
The Makankosappo's hole could be much more easily, in comparison at least, be explained with Champa using a small percentage of his powers because he had underestimated everyone's level.

I'm still adamant it'd be a lot if he got around Super Perfect Cell's level. Whatever power up he had, everyone acted and kept acting like Mr. Buu could have managed something in this tournament while Piccolo was outclassed and second-rate.

All those concerns are easily explained.

Goku and Vegeta did not know that Piccolo was training with Gohan and they all freaked out because it's basically a 4 vs 5 tournament now.

The whole training sequence with Picolo and Gohan should already prove both of them are over Good Boo by a good margin.

It really doesn't, since Gohan is just seen sparring with Piccolo and there is no way to trace a comparison with Mr. Buu.

If he had some results, it remains to be seen, but it mostly looks like he is "regaining the power he lost" and he's still a far cry from his Buu Saga self, who remains his all-time highest power level.
If that wasn't the case, he wouldn't have said "I'm having Piccolo-san retrain me from scratch", but "I've had Piccolo san re-train me from scratch [and became stronger than ever]". The whole sequence seems to suggest Gohan is still simply "getting back on his feet"; especially, it doesn't even remotely suggest he as at his highest peak - never minding getting to a level like Gohan-Buu.

I'm wondering. Has there ever been a big increase that nobody commented on? Cause I don't think we've ever had someone get significantly stronger, and then nobody make any comment about it. I remember once Goku even commenting Piccolo after leaving the ROSAT, and still saying he was no match for Cell for instance.