Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bergamo]

Then again. You have on later chapters that base Goku is stronger than Shin so that makes that comparison between Trunks and Gohan impossible.

Trunks needs to be a lot more stronger than kid Gohan.

Where does it ever say that Base Goku is stronger than Shin?

At the zen exhibition match, when the GoD for u10 Rumoosh started yelling, all the kaioshins fainted including shin but goku was still able to stand up and he was in base.

Also Shins power is hard for me to grasp. In the manga he wanted Goku, Vegeta and Gohan to team up on Yakon but iirc base goku had the physical edge on Yakon. Also Dabura only considered the 3 saiyans while they were still in base to be worth anything even over Shin and Piccolo. Been a long time since i read it so someone correct me if i'm wrong

I don't really understand Rumshii's roar. If Base Goku is only paralyzed, then his roar should do nothing to a God of Destruction.

[PFM18]

Manga Gohan is weaker thanAnime Gohan because they didn't randomly boost him to blue tier,

You're right in the manga they randomly boosted him up to be CSSB+ tier since he is about to fight Kefla.....

But yes, the anime characters are generally way stronger than their manga counterparts. That is just how the power scaling is structured. Everything is just on a smaller scale in the manga.

This just in guys!

Broly confirmed stronger than a God of Destruction!
https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 3068466177

Now early promotional material for the ToP arc about a year ago stated that Jiren was “on the level of a GoD”. (Not above it)

Broly is now confirmed to be above it. Which seems to go perfectly in line with Dragonball’s whole “next antagonist is stronger than the previous one”.

I mean yeah but Jiren is obviously>>Gods of Destruction. I believe that does also say that Broly is the strongest foe they have faced but I'm not positive.

[MoscoSama]

Manga Gohan is weaker thanAnime Gohan because they didn't randomly boost him to blue tier,

You're right in the manga they randomly boosted him up to be CSSB+ tier since he is about to fight Kefla.....

But yes, the anime characters are generally way stronger than their manga counterparts. That is just how the power scaling is structured. Everything is just on a smaller scale in the manga.

This just in guys!

Broly confirmed stronger than a God of Destruction!
https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 3068466177

Now early promotional material for the ToP arc about a year ago stated that Jiren was “on the level of a GoD”. (Not above it)

Broly is now confirmed to be above it. Which seems to go perfectly in line with Dragonball’s whole “next antagonist is stronger than the previous one”.

I mean yeah but Jiren is obviously>>Gods of Destruction. I believe that does also say that Broly is the strongest foe they have faced but I'm not positive.

He hasn't even fought her and everyone just assumes he is above cssb level in the manga.
The viz translation seems way more cocky than the way Herms98 translated it.
Gohan will undoubtedly use teamwork or some strategy to take her down, not raw power

[Bergamo]

Manga Gohan is weaker thanAnime Gohan because they didn't randomly boost him to blue tier,

You're right in the manga they randomly boosted him up to be CSSB+ tier since he is about to fight Kefla.....

But yes, the anime characters are generally way stronger than their manga counterparts. That is just how the power scaling is structured. Everything is just on a smaller scale in the manga.

This just in guys!

Broly confirmed stronger than a God of Destruction!
https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 3068466177

Now early promotional material for the ToP arc about a year ago stated that Jiren was “on the level of a GoD”. (Not above it)

Broly is now confirmed to be above it. Which seems to go perfectly in line with Dragonball’s whole “next antagonist is stronger than the previous one”.

I mean yeah but Jiren is obviously>>Gods of Destruction. I believe that does also say that Broly is the strongest foe they have faced but I'm not positive.

You can't judge Chapter 39 before it comes out. We don't know if Gohan is stronger than Kefla.

[PFM18]

Manga Gohan is weaker thanAnime Gohan because they didn't randomly boost him to blue tier,

You're right in the manga they randomly boosted him up to be CSSB+ tier since he is about to fight Kefla.....

But yes, the anime characters are generally way stronger than their manga counterparts. That is just how the power scaling is structured. Everything is just on a smaller scale in the manga.

This just in guys!

Broly confirmed stronger than a God of Destruction!
https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 3068466177

Now early promotional material for the ToP arc about a year ago stated that Jiren was “on the level of a GoD”. (Not above it)

Broly is now confirmed to be above it. Which seems to go perfectly in line with Dragonball’s whole “next antagonist is stronger than the previous one”.

I mean yeah but Jiren is obviously>>Gods of Destruction. I believe that does also say that Broly is the strongest foe they have faced but I'm not positive.

You can't judge Chapter 39 before it comes out. We don't know if Gohan is stronger than Kefla.

Yeah that's fair. You're right I shouldn't do that.

I guess it is more of a prediction than an objective statement of fact. I doubt it will go any other way but we will see

[GreatSaiyaman123]

At the zen exhibition match, when the GoD for u10 Rumoosh started yelling, all the kaioshins fainted including shin but goku was still able to stand up and he was in base.

Also Shins power is hard for me to grasp. In the manga he wanted Goku, Vegeta and Gohan to team up on Yakon but iirc base goku had the physical edge on Yakon. Also Dabura only considered the 3 saiyans while they were still in base to be worth anything even over Shin and Piccolo. Been a long time since i read it so someone correct me if i'm wrong

Good catch. I don't think Pre God Goku was weaker than Shin for the reasons you mentioned, but the fact he was paralyzed like the Hakaishins were instead of straight up knocked out implies he's closer to the Hakaishins than to the Kaioshins.

[RandomGuy96]

Then again. You have on later chapters that base Goku is stronger than Shin so that makes that comparison between Trunks and Gohan impossible.

Trunks needs to be a lot more stronger than kid Gohan.

Where does it ever say that Base Goku is stronger than Shin?

At the zen exhibition match, when the GoD for u10 Rumoosh started yelling, all the kaioshins fainted including shin but goku was still able to stand up and he was in base.

Also Shins power is hard for me to grasp. In the manga he wanted Goku, Vegeta and Gohan to team up on Yakon but iirc base goku had the physical edge on Yakon. Also Dabura only considered the 3 saiyans while they were still in base to be worth anything even over Shin and Piccolo. Been a long time since i read it so someone correct me if i'm wrong

I don't think it really scales like that, since Goku actually seems to be taking it better than the Gods of Destruction. He has no trouble standing up through it in the open even if he can't move, while according to Whis, some of the Gods of Destruction shouldn't even be standing despite Champa at least covering his ears. That seems very weird considering they're literally hundreds of thousands of times stronger.

[GodVegetto91]

Actually guys, scratch that! Broly is now confirmed to be stronger than Jiren aswell!

"Frankly, the enemy Goku and co. are up against in this movie is the strongest.

They’ve fazed Jiren, jiren was an enemy, Broly is confirmed the strongest they have ever fazed! Therefore, Broly>Jiren.

[Marlowe89]

It seems that this chapter was very deliberately written to be a power guide given how out-of-nowhere these statements are, including comparisons to past levels and character clarifying what forms they're in. Which combined with Toriyama's level of supervision makes me strongly suspect that the whole state of affairs in the anime (last I checked anyway) is a possibly-retconned Toei embellishment.

I'd say it's plausible that every chapter is, given that the manga is officially a "comicalization" of the main product. Toyotaro frequently explains mechanics that the anime doesn't bother to spell out; the most recent example being Kale's transformation and how its power works.

Yoshitaka Toshio's statement that Super's scaling is in keeping with Toriyama's views during the Universe Survival arc would further suggest an attempt to keep both mediums the same structurally, at least for the most part. The only major divergence here is exclusive transformations like Blue Kaioken or Mutated Zamasu.

Actually guys, scratch that! Broly is now confirmed to be stronger than Jiren aswell!

Is anyone surprised? This is Broly we're talking about.

[ZombieVito]

I don't think it really scales like that, since Goku actually seems to be taking it better than the Gods of Destruction. He has no trouble standing up through it in the open even if he can't move, while according to Whis, some of the Gods of Destruction shouldn't even be standing despite Champa at least covering his ears. That seems very weird considering they're literally hundreds of thousands of times stronger.

Well the gods were closer to the roar.

Still, Whis mentioned that anyone on the Kaioshin level fainted so by definition base Goku is above that level. Plain and simple.

[Bergamo]

I don't think it really scales like that, since Goku actually seems to be taking it better than the Gods of Destruction. He has no trouble standing up through it in the open even if he can't move, while according to Whis, some of the Gods of Destruction shouldn't even be standing despite Champa at least covering his ears. That seems very weird considering they're literally hundreds of thousands of times stronger.

Well the gods were closer to the roar.

Still, Whis mentioned that anyone on the Kaioshin level fainted so by definition base Goku is above that level. Plain and simple.

Okay, but it's one inconsistency vs mountains of evidence.

[Bullza]

Looks like Broly could be stronger than Jiren after all, not that it would be the most surprising thing. Goku's probably gonna need Ultra Instinct again to beat him.

[ZombieVito]

Looks like Broly could be stronger than Jiren after all, not that it would be the most surprising thing. Goku's probably gonna need Ultra Instinct again to beat him.

Pretty sure that's going to happen. It's like the one rule DB has. The next villain will always be stronger.

[shadowfox87]

As long as we keep below Angel level, I'm good. Nobody right now should be anywhere near Whis even with UI.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I wouldn't be surprised if they show Broly tanking that univese buster Hakai Zen'O used to kill Zamasu tbh.

[dragon boss z]

Looks like Broly could be stronger than Jiren after all, not that it would be the most surprising thing. Goku's probably gonna need Ultra Instinct again to beat him.

Pretty sure that's going to happen. It's like the one rule DB has. The next villain will always be stronger.

Well Frieza was weaker than Beerus, and Hit was weaker than Beerus and even golden Frieza in the manga version, but ya the next villain tends to be stronger.

[ZombieVito]

Well Frieza was weaker than Beerus, and Hit was weaker than Beerus and even golden Frieza in the manga version, but ya the next villain tends to be stronger.

Well, Beerus wasn't really a villain, neither was Hit.

[RandomGuy96]

I don't think it really scales like that, since Goku actually seems to be taking it better than the Gods of Destruction. He has no trouble standing up through it in the open even if he can't move, while according to Whis, some of the Gods of Destruction shouldn't even be standing despite Champa at least covering his ears. That seems very weird considering they're literally hundreds of thousands of times stronger.

Well the gods were closer to the roar.

Still, Whis mentioned that anyone on the Kaioshin level fainted so by definition base Goku is above that level. Plain and simple.

Not as simple as it looks. If it was purely a power thing, base Goku would've been disintegrated. So would Shin, for that matter. If a DB universe bares the slightest resemblance to our conception of a universe the power difference should be so staggering that at that distance it would really make no difference.

That said, there is one other scene that might support a super-strong base Goku. When Fused Zamasu is firing ki blasts everywhere, a stray shot goes in the direction of Shin, Gowasu, Mai, and Trunks. All of them have a deer-in-the-head-lights look before an exhausted and injured base Goku jumps in the way and blocks the blasts. Trunks then apologizes for making Goku take that hit. The weird thing is, Trunks was just as helpless as Shin here (even though presumably he could still go SS2 in an instant), even though it was explicitly stated at the start of the arc that Trunks was equal or greater than Goku when both were regular SS2s. As I see it there are 3 options:

1. Goku and Vegeta underwent a huge unstated power-up near the end of the Zamasu arc (the start of what brought base Black to SS3 level, perhaps? Maybe to line up with the implication that base Goku at the EOZ and in GT is SS3-tier?).
2. Goku, and only Goku (not Trunks), has a super-strong base state relative to his transformations.
3. There are a handful of inconsistencies that can be ignored in the face of other evidence.

Another weird thing from the manga: base Vegetto can blow Fused Zamasu apart with ease, despite the latter being much stronger than SSG Goku/Vegeta. Was this discussed at the time that it happened? Because it would seem to contradict the idea that SSG > Potara.

[PFM18]

As long as we keep below Angel level, I'm good. Nobody right now should be anywhere near Whis even with UI.

Yeah I agree with that. By this point we really should be beyond GoDs considering the first arc's villain was already a GoD and the most recent one was superior to GoDs. But at the same time being angel level is toomuch right now. Its just too much we have to scale back the progress from being that fast

[ZombieVito]

Not as simple as it looks. If it was purely a power thing, base Goku would've been disintegrated. So would Shin, for that matter. If a DB universe bares the slightest resemblance to our conception of a universe the power difference should be so staggering that at that distance it would really make no difference.

That said, there is one other scene that might support a super-strong base Goku. When Fused Zamasu is firing ki blasts everywhere, a stray shot goes in the direction of Shin, Gowasu, Mai, and Trunks. All of them have a deer-in-the-head-lights look before an exhausted and injured base Goku jumps in the way and blocks the blasts. Trunks then apologizes for making Goku take that hit. The weird thing is, Trunks was just as helpless as Shin here (even though presumably he could still go SS2 in an instant), even though it was explicitly stated at the start of the arc that Trunks was equal or greater than Goku when both were regular SS2s. As I see it there are 3 options:

1. Goku and Vegeta underwent a huge unstated power-up near the end of the Zamasu arc (the start of what brought base Black to SS3 level, perhaps? Maybe to line up with the implication that base Goku at the EOZ and in GT is SS3-tier?).
2. Goku, and only Goku (not Trunks), has a super-strong base state relative to his transformations.
3. There are a handful of inconsistencies that can be ignored in the face of other evidence.

Another weird thing from the manga: base Vegetto can blow Fused Zamasu apart with ease, despite the latter being much stronger than SSG Goku/Vegeta. Was this discussed at the time that it happened? Because it would seem to contradict the idea that SSG > Potara.

You are giving that hack too much credit, I'm afraid. He is a terrible writer and contradicts himself a lot.

Still that Zamasu vs Vegetto thing can be easily explained by Zamasu always having his guard off since he's immortal. He also says he can easily beat base Vegetto as he should.

Goku and Vegeta didnt get much stronger (If at all) between the Zamasu and ToP arcs by the way. Goku even says hes rusty in both mediums.