Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

I never denied that he said it, he just doesn’t apply it and the manga that HE checks and corrects didn’t show this. If Toriyama wanted M Zamasu to fight equal vs Blue Vegito , he would have written so but he didn’t want M Zamasu to be overly powerful and whether you like it or not, it’s Toyo and Toei’s job to adhere to his vision

Yet not even Toyo adapts Toriyama's draft 100% faithfully since he added Vegetto to it.

You also do realize Toriyama also supervises the anime right?

[shadowfox87]

I never denied that he said it, he just doesn’t apply it and the manga that HE checks and corrects didn’t show this. If Toriyama wanted M Zamasu to fight equal vs Blue Vegito , he would have written so but he didn’t want M Zamasu to be overly powerful and whether you like it or not, it’s Toyo and Toei’s job to adhere to his vision

Yet not even Toyo adapts Toriyama's draft 100% faithfully since he added Vegetto to it.

You also do realize Toriyama also supervises the anime right?

You guys are ignoring my posts. Toriyama approved Toyotaro's changes and addition of Vegetto. He even told Toyotaro to be more creative and let his own ideas shine. The anime wouldn't even have had Vegetto at all if it wasn't for Toyotaro in the first place.

Toriyama supervises both anime and manga, but he has stated that when supervising the anime, there is always something that bugs him but when he checks Toyotaro's storyboards, he can give it an ok in no time flat.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

I have all this referenced in my sig with all interviews, manga chapters, and anime episodes.

[ZombieVito]

You guys are ignoring my posts. Toriyama approved Toyotaro's changes and addition of Vegetto. He even told Toyotaro to be more creative and let his own ideas shine. The anime wouldn't even have had Vegetto at all if it wasn't for Toyotaro in the first place.

Toriyama supervises both anime and manga, but he has stated that when supervising the anime, there is always something that bugs him but when he checks Toyotaro's storyboards, he can give it an ok in no time flat.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

I have all this referenced in my sig with all interviews, manga chapters, and anime episodes.

But he's talking about art...

We have confirmation of him giving input on the story and getting it changed in the anime. So he also approves of the anime version of Super.

[LightBing]

And yet in the manga that Toriyama supervises and checks off on, black isn’t getting powerup after powerup.

Tell me about how Goku improved past cell and buu. Oh wait that didn’t happen.

You’ve already admitted that Toei went AGAINST Toriyamas vision but you still are gonna call Toyo a hack for doing what Toriyama wanted?

You are right, it’s better to drop it since Toei can do no wrong in your eyes and they are masters of consistency

Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables.

Straight from the author's mouth. Black abused this and he also got a Zenkai after returning to the future and resting between E50 and E56.

There's no issue here.

I absolutely hate the use of this quote in most anything really. Why didn't Goku use this magical attribute then against Black? They literally have the same body. Then let's not forget the context, this is from a BoG interview and it's accompanied by the: Beerus - 10, Whis - 15 SSJG - 5 power scale. Which if that was still followed everyone would finger flick Beerus by now.

The quote is not to be taken to the extreme. Never did any Saiyan get punched twice in the face and suddenly got stronger than his opponent. It's a quality they have and Mr.Toriyama was implying that Goku would eventually surpass Beerus, not immediately! Since you know, he didn't in the movie this quote is about.

Goku Black got stronger with zenkais, that's fine. The problem with the anime is they had heal for no reason whatsoever. Bad writing pure and simple. They continued this with fighters having unlimited stamina in the ToP even after they specifically said their tank was empty. At a certain point the anime writers just didn't care about any in-universe logic.

[shadowfox87]

You guys are ignoring my posts. Toriyama approved Toyotaro's changes and addition of Vegetto. He even told Toyotaro to be more creative and let his own ideas shine. The anime wouldn't even have had Vegetto at all if it wasn't for Toyotaro in the first place.

Toriyama supervises both anime and manga, but he has stated that when supervising the anime, there is always something that bugs him but when he checks Toyotaro's storyboards, he can give it an ok in no time flat.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

I have all this referenced in my sig with all interviews, manga chapters, and anime episodes.

But he's talking about art...

We have confirmation of him giving input on the story and getting it changed in the anime. So he also approves of the anime version of Super.

He literally states "storyboards" in the sentence. He's not talking about art. There is also a separate interview where he also talks about art. You're confusing them. All of this is stated in my sig.

[ZombieVito]

He literally states "storyboards" in the sentence. He's not talking about art. There is also a separate interview where he also talks about art. You're confusing them. All of this is stated in my sig.

My point still stands though. Toriyama did change the story in the anime version and since Merged Zamasu was that powerful in the anime then he must have agreed with that as well.

[GodVegetto91]

I think it's a joke that every villain becomes way stronger than the last.
Jiren was made to be insanely powerful, stronger than GoDs and almost as good as MUI, and now some saiyan is gonna be even more powerful than that?

GoDs would become complete fodders at this rate.

“Some Saiyan”??! You do realise that this is a very special, very unique, legendary Super Saiyan with (presumably) far greater potential than any other Saiyan in existence, right?

Now what is Jiren exactly...? Let’s have a look. Shall we?

Jiren is a grey. A RANDOM Alien that never, ever should have been as strong as he was. (Race-wise)

This makes 0 sense. you don't know anything about jirens race, how old he is, how long he's been training and what type of training he's been doing.
The notion that he shouldn't be as strong as he was because "he's just an alien" makes no sense.

The strongest being in all of DB is a Watermelon looking child so why are we judging power potential on looks?

It’s your argument that doesn’t make sense, not mine. It’s not about what the Omni-King is qua bodily race, or even what he looks like. It’s all about his TITLE. He has the title — God of All. So that’s what he is.

Jiren has a title similair to you and me. An inhabitant of a planet somewhere in the cosmos. In this case, a random Grey. Nothing special at all. Saiyans > aliens. (Potential wise).

[MoscoSama]

“Some Saiyan”??! You do realise that this is a very special, very unique, legendary Super Saiyan with (presumably) far greater potential than any other Saiyan in existence, right?

Now what is Jiren exactly...? Let’s have a look. Shall we?

Jiren is a grey. A RANDOM Alien that never, ever should have been as strong as he was. (Race-wise)

This makes 0 sense. you don't know anything about jirens race, how old he is, how long he's been training and what type of training he's been doing.
The notion that he shouldn't be as strong as he was because "he's just an alien" makes no sense.

The strongest being in all of DB is a Watermelon looking child so why are we judging power potential on looks?

It’s your argument that doesn’t make sense, not mine. It’s not about what the Omni-King is qua bodily race, or even what he looks like. It’s all about his TITLE. He has the title — God of All. So that’s what he is.

Jiren has a title similair to you and me. An inhabitant of a planet somewhere in the cosmos. In this case, a random Grey. Nothing special at all. Saiyans > aliens. (Potential wise).

Your entire argument is based on headcanon. "Aliens can't be strong because reasons"

12 Gods of Destructions are from 11 non saiyan races

Toppo, Jiren, Hit, etc are all non saiyans.

The notion that he can't be super strong because he's a alien is stupid especially in a universe like DB

[Bergamo]

This makes 0 sense. you don't know anything about jirens race, how old he is, how long he's been training and what type of training he's been doing.
The notion that he shouldn't be as strong as he was because "he's just an alien" makes no sense.

The strongest being in all of DB is a Watermelon looking child so why are we judging power potential on looks?

It’s your argument that doesn’t make sense, not mine. It’s not about what the Omni-King is qua bodily race, or even what he looks like. It’s all about his TITLE. He has the title — God of All. So that’s what he is.

Jiren has a title similair to you and me. An inhabitant of a planet somewhere in the cosmos. In this case, a random Grey. Nothing special at all. Saiyans > aliens. (Potential wise).

Your entire argument is based on headcanon. "Aliens can't be strong because reasons"

12 Gods of Destructions are from 11 non saiyan races

Toppo, Jiren, Hit, etc are all non saiyans.

The notion that he can't be super strong because he's a alien is stupid especially in a universe like DB

Zarbon is shown to be the upper limit of what an elite alien warrior is capable of. The Ginyu's and Frieza are mutants, and of course the Saiyans are Saiyans. This doesn't mean that other aliens can't be super strong, it just means that it's very atypical(although the GoD's could be mutants). People also seem to forget that 99.99% of Saiyans were weak.

[MoscoSama]

It’s your argument that doesn’t make sense, not mine. It’s not about what the Omni-King is qua bodily race, or even what he looks like. It’s all about his TITLE. He has the title — God of All. So that’s what he is.

Jiren has a title similair to you and me. An inhabitant of a planet somewhere in the cosmos. In this case, a random Grey. Nothing special at all. Saiyans > aliens. (Potential wise).

Your entire argument is based on headcanon. "Aliens can't be strong because reasons"

12 Gods of Destructions are from 11 non saiyan races

Toppo, Jiren, Hit, etc are all non saiyans.

The notion that he can't be super strong because he's a alien is stupid especially in a universe like DB

Zarbon is shown to be the upper limit of what an elite alien warrior is capable of. The Ginyu's and Frieza are mutants, and of course the Saiyans are Saiyans. This doesn't mean that other aliens can't be super strong, it just means that it's very atypical(although the GoD's could be mutants). People also seem to forget that 99.99% of Saiyans were weak.

Thats in u7 thought. Just like the u6 saiyans developed differently compared to u7 saiyans, aliens from u11 or wherever jiren is from aren't capped by the same rules that u7's random aliens are

[Bergamo]

Your entire argument is based on headcanon. "Aliens can't be strong because reasons"

12 Gods of Destructions are from 11 non saiyan races

Toppo, Jiren, Hit, etc are all non saiyans.

The notion that he can't be super strong because he's a alien is stupid especially in a universe like DB

Zarbon is shown to be the upper limit of what an elite alien warrior is capable of. The Ginyu's and Frieza are mutants, and of course the Saiyans are Saiyans. This doesn't mean that other aliens can't be super strong, it just means that it's very atypical(although the GoD's could be mutants). People also seem to forget that 99.99% of Saiyans were weak.

Thats in u7 thought. Just like the u6 saiyans developed differently compared to u7 saiyans, aliens from u11 or wherever jiren is from aren't capped by the same rules that u7's random aliens are

I know, I'm just saying that no matter what race Jiren is it's abnormal for him to be that strong. If Jiren was a Saiyan we'd still need an explanation for his strength that extends beyond, "he's just really strong."

[GodVegetto91]

This makes 0 sense. you don't know anything about jirens race, how old he is, how long he's been training and what type of training he's been doing.
The notion that he shouldn't be as strong as he was because "he's just an alien" makes no sense.

The strongest being in all of DB is a Watermelon looking child so why are we judging power potential on looks?

It’s your argument that doesn’t make sense, not mine. It’s not about what the Omni-King is qua bodily race, or even what he looks like. It’s all about his TITLE. He has the title — God of All. So that’s what he is.

Jiren has a title similair to you and me. An inhabitant of a planet somewhere in the cosmos. In this case, a random Grey. Nothing special at all. Saiyans > aliens. (Potential wise).

Your entire argument is based on headcanon. "Aliens can't be strong because reasons"

12 Gods of Destructions are from 11 non saiyan races

Toppo, Jiren, Hit, etc are all non saiyans.

The notion that he can't be super strong because he's a alien is stupid especially in a universe like DB

They’re so strong because they have taken on the title of God of Destruction. I really don’t see what’s so hard to understand about it. It should be self evident! I can’t believe i even have to explain this.

Saiyans have always been a superior race in terms of fighting ability and potential.

Cell was a biological android with Cells from all the best races in the universe. Majin Buu was a magical being, a demonic freak of nature that has existed since the beginning of time. Beerus is a God of Destruction. That these entities are all very powerful makes total sense. But not in Jiren’s case. He’s just a random alien. Your logic is flawed.

[Miracles]

It was stated by Belmound that Jiren is so strong because of his thirst for power of not going through that tragedy again.

Toppo is so strong cause he got special training from the angel of Universe 11 as the candidate of the next god of destruction.

[Bergamo]

It’s your argument that doesn’t make sense, not mine. It’s not about what the Omni-King is qua bodily race, or even what he looks like. It’s all about his TITLE. He has the title — God of All. So that’s what he is.

Jiren has a title similair to you and me. An inhabitant of a planet somewhere in the cosmos. In this case, a random Grey. Nothing special at all. Saiyans > aliens. (Potential wise).

Your entire argument is based on headcanon. "Aliens can't be strong because reasons"

12 Gods of Destructions are from 11 non saiyan races

Toppo, Jiren, Hit, etc are all non saiyans.

The notion that he can't be super strong because he's a alien is stupid especially in a universe like DB

They’re so strong because they have taken on the title of God of Destruction. I really don’t see what’s so hard to understand about it. It should be self evident! I can’t believe i even have to explain this.

Saiyans have always been a superior race in terms of fighting ability and potential.

Cell was a biological android with Cells from all the best races in the universe. Majin Buu was a magical being, a demonic freak of nature that has existed since the beginning of time. Beerus is a God of Destruction. That these entities are all very powerful makes total sense. But not in Jiren’s case. He’s just a random alien. Your logic is flawed.

Reminder that Saiyans weren't the superior fighting race until recently in Dragon Ball history.

[MoscoSama]

Goku stated that the power he received from the SSG ritual is something he never could have achieved on his own and he is the strongest saiyan so far that we've ever seen until the Broly movie officially comes out. This notion that the saiyans especially pure blooded ones from u7 are this unbelievable race is flat out wrong. They've never even said saiyans are the greatest race in the multiverse, fans just think that cause the two main characters in the franchise happen to be saiyans

[dragon boss z]

Goku stated that the power he received from the SSG ritual is something he never could have achieved on his own and he is the strongest saiyan so far that we've ever seen until the Broly movie officially comes out. This notion that the saiyans especially pure blooded ones from u7 are this unbelievable race is flat out wrong. They've never even said saiyans are the greatest race in the multiverse, fans just think that cause the two main characters in the franchise happen to be saiyans

Vegeta showed that they could actually reach that level without the ritual and the only characters who are above SSG level that aren't gods are saiyans, Frieza, Jiren, Toppo (if you count him since he is a GoD in training), and maybe 17 who was modified, he wasn't born that way. Saiyans are definitely one of the strongest races.

[shadowfox87]

He literally states "storyboards" in the sentence. He's not talking about art. There is also a separate interview where he also talks about art. You're confusing them. All of this is stated in my sig.

My point still stands though. Toriyama did change the story in the anime version and since Merged Zamasu was that powerful in the anime then he must have agreed with that as well.

How do you know Toriyama "changed" the story in the anime version and also "agreed" with it? Is there any written confirmation anywhere? No. All we know is that Toriyama agreed with Toyotaro's changes. He literally stated that Merged Zamasu shouldn't be that powerful. The anime literally did the opposite. The anime was given the same draft as Toyotaro and the anime team "changed" it. Saying that Toriyama changed it without having all the info is wrong.

[MoscoSama]

Goku stated that the power he received from the SSG ritual is something he never could have achieved on his own and he is the strongest saiyan so far that we've ever seen until the Broly movie officially comes out. This notion that the saiyans especially pure blooded ones from u7 are this unbelievable race is flat out wrong. They've never even said saiyans are the greatest race in the multiverse, fans just think that cause the two main characters in the franchise happen to be saiyans

Vegeta showed that they could actually reach that level without the ritual and the only characters who are above SSG level that aren't gods are saiyans, Frieza, Jiren, Toppo (if you count him since he is a GoD in training), and maybe 17 who was modified, he wasn't born that way. Saiyans are definitely one of the strongest races.

By his own, I believe he meant his own training regimes. Vegeta achieved that power with the help of an Angel and without it probably never could have reached that level. Also the u7 pure blood saiyans were a very very weak race, also Goku absorbed that power so the power from the ritual is something anyone even relative to current Base Goku (assuming no retcon) has reached

[ZombieVito]

How do you know Toriyama "changed" the story in the anime version and also "agreed" with it? Is there any written confirmation anywhere? No. All we know is that Toriyama agreed with Toyotaro's changes. He literally stated that Merged Zamasu shouldn't be that powerful. The anime literally did the opposite. The anime was given the same draft as Toyotaro and the anime team "changed" it. Saying that Toriyama changed it without having all the info is wrong.

We know he completely changed Jiren's personality in the anime. At first Jiren's personality was Toppo's but Toriyama stepped in and changed it to be a silent type.

So, yes. Toriyama can change anything at any time that he doesn't like and yet Mutated Zamasu remained.

[Bergamo]

How do you know Toriyama "changed" the story in the anime version and also "agreed" with it? Is there any written confirmation anywhere? No. All we know is that Toriyama agreed with Toyotaro's changes. He literally stated that Merged Zamasu shouldn't be that powerful. The anime literally did the opposite. The anime was given the same draft as Toyotaro and the anime team "changed" it. Saying that Toriyama changed it without having all the info is wrong.

We know he completely changed Jiren's personality in the anime. At first Jiren's personality was Toppo's but Toriyama stepped in and changed it to be a silent type.

So, yes. Toriyama can change anything at any time that he doesn't like and yet Mutated Zamasu remained.

Why would he make that change in one medium, but not the other? There was more than enough time between Merged Zamas' appearance in the anime and his appearance in the manga for him to tell Toyotaro.