Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[jcogginsa]

Goku can use regular Super Saiyan and God Ki at the same time. He does so against Beerus.

Give me some concrete Statement from the episode that says he did not use God Ki against Frost. I'll believe it then

[ZombieVito]

All those concerns are easily explained.

Goku and Vegeta did not know that Piccolo was training with Gohan and they all freaked out because it's basically a 4 vs 5 tournament now.

The whole training sequence with Picolo and Gohan should already prove both of them are over Good Boo by a good margin.

Exactly that what I think, especially the bold one. The traning would make no sense unless gohan came back to at least his buu arc ultimate power level which means picoolo at least too.

Now about good buu, well he is powerfull and also has insane regeneration and stamina so maybe in the end he would be even more valuable to wear down opponent then ultimate gohan tier. Also maybe there is reason behind buu going into hybernation state... maybe the longer buu sleep the bigger his power up raises... assumption but could be possible as Akira stated buu is nature force which is hybernating to wake up after some time and we know babidi forcefully awoken him, so it would be cool to meet buu in universe 6 if he is hypernating until now, he would be huge threat and ridiculous powerfull.

Yeah it makes no sense for Gohan to be excited and want to test his training if he was still weaker than his Buu saga self.

[ssbgoku]

All those concerns are easily explained.

Goku and Vegeta did not know that Piccolo was training with Gohan and they all freaked out because it's basically a 4 vs 5 tournament now.

The whole training sequence with Picolo and Gohan should already prove both of them are over Good Boo by a good margin.

Exactly that what I think, especially the bold one. The traning would make no sense unless gohan came back to at least his buu arc ultimate power level which means picoolo at least too.

Now about good buu, well he is powerfull and also has insane regeneration and stamina so maybe in the end he would be even more valuable to wear down opponent then ultimate gohan tier. Also maybe there is reason behind buu going into hybernation state... maybe the longer buu sleep the bigger his power up raises... assumption but could be possible as Akira stated buu is nature force which is hybernating to wake up after some time and we know babidi forcefully awoken him, so it would be cool to meet buu in universe 6 if he is hypernating until now, he would be huge threat and ridiculous powerfull.

Yeah it makes no sense for Gohan to be excited and want to test his training if he was still weaker than his Buu saga self.

^^ pure truth. What do you think about good buu theory ? Do you think goku and vegeta may want him more due to almost infinite stamina and insane regeneration abilities to wear down opponent, or rather that being in big slumber and hybernating buu got much stronger ?

[LowRyder2005]

I'm wondering. Has there ever been a big increase that nobody commented on? Cause I don't think we've ever had someone get significantly stronger, and then nobody make any comment about it. I remember once Goku even commenting Piccolo after leaving the ROSAT, and still saying he was no match for Cell for instance.

Not only I myself don't really think there ever was - at least for characters put under the spotlight for a moment or two, in this case wheter we are talking about Piccolo going to Gohan-Buu's level or all the way to Super Saiyan God level we'd be talking about, arguably, Piccolo's greatest increase ever.

I mean, let's think of the Super's Piccolo = Gohan-Buu theory: the power increase would've happened to Piccolo (still below a Cell Junior?) in months, training on Earth, with a Gohan who, accordingly, needed to be "retrained from scratch (and still getting back on his feet)" while Goku had to train for x years in the Other World to reach that a power far below that (Super Saiyan 3 compared to Gohan-Buu) from a higher base (more or less Perfect Cell tier).
Never minding that, as far as we know, Piccolo could have kept training for years and still be below Cell/Dabra at the time the Buu Saga took place. At least from an in-universe perspective, it sounds clearly lacking any kind of apparent justification (while we had a half-baked one for Freeza: a.k.a. the "fighting prodigy" statement).

Yeah it makes no sense for Gohan to be excited and want to test his training if he was still weaker than his Buu saga self.

It's exactly the contrary: Gohan states he is "having Piccolo retrain him from scratch right now"... implying he is STILL retraining from scratch. It makes no sense for him to say he's still "doing something from scratch" if he already did that and more.

[Helios518]

So Goku didn't use Saiyan beyond God against 4th form Frieza, If Goku's god ki was on then how come his power was sensed by beings without God ki during RoF?

I don't know whether he used SbG vs Frieza, but most likely he hasn't used here yet. He probably turned on God Ki just as he was transforming vs. Frieza.

It would make zero sense if Goku didn't use SbG against Frieza and it's only when Goku goes SSGSS is when he can't be sensed. So it's either

SbG is just another name for a base Saiyan having the power (not god ki) of SSJG
or
4th form Frieza is somehow Z tier due to Goku supposedly not using god ki against Frieza

You and I know that the latter is ridiculous

[LowRyder2005]

"Saiyan Beyond God" was used by Dragon Ball Heroes for the first time, and it was to promote Revival of F... with excerpts from Goku's fight with Freeza to show the state.
In any way, Goku and Vegeta were using the form at that time - which is, however, characterized by an extremely high increase in ki and milky/golden aura (both of which, however, are absent here: Goku has no aura all the time against Botamo and only shows the well-known golden aura when going Super Saiyan).

Which is enough to say that the only way we know for sure they were fighting in a "Saiyan Beyond God" state is against Freeza.
It would still depend on your definition of "Saiyan Beyond God", if it's just "a Saiyan who has mastered god ki" they may as well always be "Saiyans Beyond God" and just suppressing themselves. Again, it is a matter of semanthics until a guide clears that out.

[LightBing]

Not only I myself don't really think there ever was - at least for characters put under the spotlight for a moment or two, in this case wheter we are talking about Piccolo going to Gohan-Buu's level or all the way to Super Saiyan God level we'd be talking about, arguably, Piccolo's greatest increase ever.

I mean, let's think of the Super's Piccolo = Gohan-Buu theory: the power increase would've happened to Piccolo (still below a Cell Junior?) in months, training on Earth, with a Gohan who, accordingly, needed to be "retrained from scratch (and still getting back on his feet)" while Goku had to train for x years in the Other World to reach that a power far below that (Super Saiyan 3 compared to Gohan-Buu) from a higher base (more or less Perfect Cell tier).
Never minding that, as far as we know, Piccolo could have kept training for years and still be below Cell/Dabra at the time the Buu Saga took place. At least from an in-universe perspective, it sounds clearly lacking any kind of apparent justification (while we had a half-baked one for Freeza: a.k.a. the "fighting prodigy" statement).

His increase while training in the Android was bigger. Of course that was three years so dividing his gains by days, it might be inferior but not by much. The whole sparring with someone stronger or equal was always a thing in Dragon Ball.
Goku had nobody close to him in the Other World.
If Piccolo has indeed been gave this increase, it makes perfect sense story-wise. I don't see it as far-fetched.

[ZombieVito]

^^ pure truth. What do you think about good buu theory ? Do you think goku and vegeta may want him more due to almost infinite stamina and insane regeneration abilities to wear down opponent, or rather that being in big slumber and hybernating buu got much stronger ?

Boo's regeneration could play a factor yeah.

[Helios518]

"Saiyan Beyond God" was used by Dragon Ball Heroes for the first time, and it was to promote Revival of F... with excerpts from Goku's fight with Freeza to show the state.

Then why do people use SbG for Super if it's Heroes exclusive?

"In any way, they were using the form at that time - which is, however, characterized by an extremely high increase in ki and milky/golden aura (both of which, however, are absent here: Goku has no aura all the time against Botamo and only shows the well-known golden aura when going Super Saiyan).

I don't think SbG is characterized with white aura because in RoF everyone had gained white aura

[LowRyder2005]

Not only I myself don't really think there ever was - at least for characters put under the spotlight for a moment or two, in this case wheter we are talking about Piccolo going to Gohan-Buu's level or all the way to Super Saiyan God level we'd be talking about, arguably, Piccolo's greatest increase ever.

I mean, let's think of the Super's Piccolo = Gohan-Buu theory: the power increase would've happened to Piccolo (still below a Cell Junior?) in months, training on Earth, with a Gohan who, accordingly, needed to be "retrained from scratch (and still getting back on his feet)" while Goku had to train for x years in the Other World to reach that a power far below that (Super Saiyan 3 compared to Gohan-Buu) from a higher base (more or less Perfect Cell tier).
Never minding that, as far as we know, Piccolo could have kept training for years and still be below Cell/Dabra at the time the Buu Saga took place. At least from an in-universe perspective, it sounds clearly lacking any kind of apparent justification (while we had a half-baked one for Freeza: a.k.a. the "fighting prodigy" statement).

His increase while training in the Android was bigger. Of course that was three years so dividing his gains by days, it might be inferior but not by much. The whole sparring with someone stronger or equal was always a thing in Dragon Ball.
Goku had nobody close to him in the Other World.
If Piccolo has indeed been gave this increase, it makes perfect sense story-wise. I don't see it as far-fetched.

I happen to have multiple issues with your statements:

* His increase from pre to post ROSAT in the Android Saga has been labeled as "worth of mentioning" but not incredible. Besides, you have perfectly coherent theories with what the manga says in the Buu Saga which put Gohan-Buu hundreds of times stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 Goku, for one and they won't extrapolate nothing more than what the text is saying. Now, yes, the Buu saga is a mess and we are sure that at least the Super anime is following the Z anime: anyway, Piccolo jumping from Cell's tier to Gohan-Buu tier is arguably a way bigger jump than going up from #17 to possibly Semi-Perfect Cell... whatever may be your take on the Buu's saga as a whole.

* Gohan was extremely weak compared to how it was and he still implied his power is not quite what it used to be even by the time the tournament is taking place. How could sparring with someone weaker than Ultimate Gohan - who is still weaker than Ultimate Gohan - make Piccolo... and just Piccolo, equal or superior to Gohan-Buu?

* "Goku had nobody close to him in the Other World": this on the other hand is incorrect. The Super anime is following the anime continuity (see Gregory, references to Bulma and Ginyu's filler and so on), therefore, Goku had Pai Ku Han to train with.

[ShinTenshin]

So after rewatching the épisode, it's clear Frost cheated everybody in the fight. He say that he is considerably weakened and even can't kill Piccolo. So the way piccolo resist is totally logic.

Like he said he want to win as a good guy even if he is exhausted. But when vegeta face him, he say that he will regret so it's clear that he lower his strength against Piccolo. You will see the truth in the next épisode when he will be far stronger against Vegeta.
He want to be portrayed as a hero to ultimately cheat everybody.
Like Vados say it's Frost, he love to be someone else.

[LowRyder2005]

Then why do people use SbG for Super if it's Heroes exclusive?

When did I say that? Besides, do you understand I was just trying to stress your point?

don't think SbG is characterized with white aura because in RoF everyone had gained white aura

I said white and golden (or with golden glares, if you like).

Spoiler:

[LightBing]

I happen to have multiple issues with your statements:

* His increase from pre to post ROSAT in the Android Saga has been labeled as "worth of mentioning" but not incredible. Besides, you have perfectly coherent theories with what the manga says in the Buu Saga which put Gohan-Buu hundreds of times stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku, for one and they won't extrapolate nothing more than what the text is saying. Now, yes, the Buu saga is a mess and we are sure that at least the Super anime is following the Z anime: anyway, Piccolo jumping from Cell's tier to Gohan-Buu tier is arguably a way bigger jump than going up from #17 to possibly Semi-Perfect Cell.

* Gohan was extremely weak compared to how it was and he still implied his power is not quite what it used to be even by the time the tournament is taking place. How could sparring with someone weaker than Ultimate Gohan - who is still weaker than Ultimate Gohan - make Piccolo... and just Piccolo, equal or superior to Gohan-Buu?

* "Goku had nobody close to him in the Other World": this on the other hand is incorrect. The Super anime is following the anime continuity (see Gregory, references to Bulma and Ginyu's filler and so on), therefore, Goku had Pai Ku Han to train with.

I wasn't referring to that time period. I was talking about how he went from Second Form Freeza to close to a SSJ, almost hundred times stronger. This while sparring with Goku and Gohan. It's very similar to what we have now.
I disagree that Gohan-Boo is that much stronger that SSJ3 Goku, I don't think is worth discussing regarding this. We would enter a different discussion, that I don't really wanna have.

Gohan was weaker, he said he couldn't access his power due to lack of training. It's a fair assumption that once the training began, his power quickly returned to him. Just an assumption on my part.

I'm 100% sure that Goku said that line in the manga, while talking about fusion. The line was likely kept in the anime (can't remember), which would make Paikuhan and everybody else included in the statement.

[Helios518]

When did I say that? Besides, do you understand I was just trying to stress your point?]

My bad, I read that wrong.

I said white and golden.

Spoiler:

There is no gold in these pics, only white.

Spoiler:

[LowRyder2005]

I happen to have multiple issues with your statements:

* His increase from pre to post ROSAT in the Android Saga has been labeled as "worth of mentioning" but not incredible. Besides, you have perfectly coherent theories with what the manga says in the Buu Saga which put Gohan-Buu hundreds of times stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku, for one and they won't extrapolate nothing more than what the text is saying. Now, yes, the Buu saga is a mess and we are sure that at least the Super anime is following the Z anime: anyway, Piccolo jumping from Cell's tier to Gohan-Buu tier is arguably a way bigger jump than going up from #17 to possibly Semi-Perfect Cell.

* Gohan was extremely weak compared to how it was and he still implied his power is not quite what it used to be even by the time the tournament is taking place. How could sparring with someone weaker than Ultimate Gohan - who is still weaker than Ultimate Gohan - make Piccolo... and just Piccolo, equal or superior to Gohan-Buu?

* "Goku had nobody close to him in the Other World": this on the other hand is incorrect. The Super anime is following the anime continuity (see Gregory, references to Bulma and Ginyu's filler and so on), therefore, Goku had Pai Ku Han to train with.

I wasn't referring to that time period. I was talking about how he went from Second Form Freeza to close to a SSJ, almost hundred times stronger. This while sparring with Goku and Gohan. It's very similar to what we have now.
I disagree that Gohan-Boo is that much stronger that SSJ3 Goku, I don't think is worth discussing regarding this. We would enter a different discussion, that I don't really wanna have.

Gohan was weaker, he said he couldn't access his power due to lack of training. It's a fair assumption that once the training began, his power quickly returned to him. Just an assumption on my part.

I'm 100% sure that Goku said that line in the manga, while talking about fusion. The line was likely kept in the anime (can't remember), which would make Paikuhan and everybody else included in the statement.

Putting the Buu debate aside (I'm kind of glad, actually; still with "biggest increase I was referring from anything Z-related to God-level), I'm afraid the other two points are still quite unsound: in ep. 30, you have Gohan saying "I'm having Piccolo retrain me from scratch by now". Notice that he mentions he is still getting back to the basics at that point in time: hence, Gohan can't be at his strongest. This is reinforced by the fact that he's chosen and was still training with Piccolo, whom he had basically surpassed ever since he was a preteen.

Otherwise, he would have said "I had Piccolo retrain me from scratch"... which yes, would have opened the possibility he was either at a level comparable to whatever he was before or even stronger. As of now, Gohan doesn't think he has gotten beyond "scratch". Alas, taking Gohan's word as trustworthy, it can only mean that according to him he is still quite weak or weaker than his Buu saga self.

Regarding the second point: we were talking about the Cell Game - Buu Saga gap and how Goku jumped from Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan 3. Even if Goku said that, it wouldn't change the fact that in-between that time frame he had someone equal to train with (Pai Ku Han is by all means and accounts considerably stronger than Super Perfect Cell) in the anime continuity.

[Hugo Boss]

The Tier list as of episode 34:

Beyond God tier: Vados & Whis.
God tier 1: Beerus & Champa.
God tier 2: Monaka.
God tier 3: SSGSS Goku, SSGSS Vegeta(Champa arc) & Golden Freeza.
God tier 4: SSGSS Goku, SSGSS Vegeta(RoF arc), SBG Goku & SBG Vegeta(Champa arc).
God tier 5: SBG Goku, SBG Vegeta(RoF arc) & SSG Goku.
God tier 6: Final Form Freeza.
God tier 7: 10% Beerus.

Scrub tier 1: SS1 Goku & SS1 Vegeta(Champa arc).
Scrub tier 2: Final Form Frost.
Scrub tier 3: Base Goku(Champa arc) & Assault Form Frost.
Scrub tier 4: First Form Frost.
Scrub tier 5: Botamo & Piccolo(Champa arc).

No way Piccolo's anywhere near the God levels.
The case simply must be: Base < SS <<<<<<<<<<<<<< SSG/SBG < SSGSS.

I like your list, though I prefer to not be so specific about the forms.

God tier 1: Whis & Vados.
God tier 2: Beerus & Champa.
God tier 3: Monaka.
God tier 4: Goku & Vegeta.
God tier 5: Freeza.
God tier 6: Super Saiyan God.

Scrub tier 1: Boo.
Scrub tier 2: Frost.
Scrub tier 3: Piccolo.
Scrub tier 5: Botamo.

I was waiting for someone to point that Piccolo's power was very different from usual, but neither Goku nor Vegeta didn't remark his strength. Goku didn't understimate Piccolo's power but rather his fighting style. Had not Frost cheated, Piccolo would have probably win with his strategy. With power alone, it seems Boo is still ahead of Piccolo and I don't see that kind of strategy working on Boo.

[Lionel]

Piccolo's strategy was only effective because he had the reflexes and speed necessary to react, then he restricted Frost's movements using the strength in his arm. All of these traits are dependent on one's power level. If his power were truly so feeble that we're questioning if he's even above Buu then Frost would have forcibly torn apart Piccolo's arm in a similar fashion to how Goku escaped Giran's Merry-Go-Round Gum. This is kind of going on a leap of faith, but current Super Saiyan Goku must not be all too unimpressive if it garnered a brief glimpse from Hit. Many people are speculating that he'll be the one to finally defeat U7's team, or at the very least he manages to put an end to Vegeta's streak and put up a fight against Monaka, the strongest person who Beerus ever fought.

[Hugo Boss]

That's precisely why I think Piccolo's strategy wouldn't work on Boo. Given Goku & Vegeta lack of implications in Piccolo's power favor, he isn't even close to Boo for makkankosappo be effective in any way.

Looking at Hit's glimpse, it seems Super Saiyan Goku caught his attention, but his next reaction pretty much suggests even Super Saiyan Goku is unimpressive.

[apex_pretador]

That's precisely why I think Piccolo's strategy wouldn't work on Boo. Given Goku & Vegeta lack of implications in Piccolo's power favor, he isn't even close to Boo for makkankosappo be effective in any way.

Looking at Hit's glimpse, it seems Super Saiyan Goku caught his attention, but his next reaction pretty much suggests even Super Saiyan Goku is unimpressive.

makankosappo is useless on buu anyways. He'll just regenerate

[apex_pretador]

So where do you think following people stand:

Piccolo
Improved gohan
Frost
Base goku
Base villaingeta