"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[Khin]

The flashback when Goku and Zamasu fought is exactly the same as Episode 53 implying that this isn't a timeline where Trunks never arrived since Goku only met and fought Zamasu because they wanted to know if he was Black. Zamasu didn't say, I saw Goku on Godtube, went to meet him, and lost in a fight. He said Goku gave him a crushing defeat and we see Goku and Zamasu's sparring match from Episode 53, implying that a time loop has happened.

Also, Zamasu only confirmed that he would used the Time Ring. He didn't say that he got his plan completely right. And why would he given the situation he was in.

If a time-loop happened, Goku wouldn't be hanging around on Earth farming. Aside the flashback between Zamasu and Goku's fight (Which I already addressed above), Black's flashback is very different compared to what we saw in the previous episodes. The way Gowasu died is different (He wasn't in a table), Goku is farming, and Black!Zamasu's plan for the Super Dragon Balls is different compared to the Zamasu that was destroyed by Beerus.

I never said Zamasu first seen Goku on Kamitube, don't know where you get that from, just that Zamasu and Goku will eventually fight regardless of Trunks and Black. If you actually read my whole post, you'd know what I was trying to say.

When Kaioshin exposed his plan to kill Gowasu, steal the time ring, uses the Super Dragon Ball for immortality, and a fake Goku, he said he's impressed they managed to work it out.

The series seems to be trying to tell us that Black is from what the original course of history of the Super timeline, but Trunks coming back and warning everything about him completely changes the history, which leads to Zamasu getting destroyed. However, even though the history was changed, Black still exists because of the Time-Ring he wears.

There's no new timelines, full time-loops, or whatever. Some people are overthinking it way too much, while thinking about it hours earlier I realized things would be easy if we were to just assume Zamasu and Goku will eventually fight regardless.

[TheMikado]

Except that's what the manga does, it makes it so that Zamasu will become obsessed with Goku regardless of whether they fight. Zamasu becomes Black without Trunks or Goku or Beerus interaction at all. The manga solved the issue. The anime didn't and actually seemed to make it worse.

[alakazam^]

I've said this many times already in this thread and the others, but on another forum I found the single best post for explaining why this doesn't make sense. In theory the loop should always involve both Trunks coming back AND Beerus deleting Black. Meaning there should never be a point where Zamasu both fought Goku in the same manner AND survived to become Black. Unless there's an explanation to that effect.

It makes sense and is possible because the "original" timeline includes Trunks appearing, Goku fighting Zamasu, all three going to the future, Zamasu setting his plan in motion and fleeing to Trunks' timeline. When Trunks, Vegeeta and Goku returned injured they split the timeline because the outcome of that was Zamasu getting killed by Beers. Prior to that instance, two timelines existed: one where Zamasu turned Black and the one we followed. When Beers, a God, killed Zamasu, the timeline where he would have been alive also got destroyed because the only difference from the one we follow was his living condition, and this is why Black should have been killed instantly and Trunks should have disappeared because he would never have travelled back in the first place (possibly, Super's timeline would revert to the state it was before Trunks appeared -minus Zamasu-). The thing is, since Black had already fleed to Trunks' timeline, which is a separate world, by the use of the Time Ring, he got freed from the causality of his own timeline, which explains why he didn't vanish in Trunks' world (either because the Time Ring gives him protection or because he's in a different timeline, it doesn't matter) when the unsplit timeline he came from ceased to exist. So, this explains how future Zamasu exists, how Black still exists and why present Zamasu got killed for real before advancing his plan.

The important thing is that both present and future worlds are separate and don't affect each other and the travels are made between them. This also solves the paradox because, as far as both timelines are concerned, "Trunks appearing" and "Black appearing" are just events that happen in each history, with no causal point. Since the present timeline got further split and the "pre-split" version was destroyed by Beers, there's no paradox to deal with. We just wound up with a "timeline-crasher" Black that belongs nowhere.

[TheMikado]

I've said this many times already in this thread and the others, but on another forum I found the single best post for explaining why this doesn't make sense. In theory the loop should always involve both Trunks coming back AND Beerus deleting Black. Meaning there should never be a point where Zamasu both fought Goku in the same manner AND survived to become Black. Unless there's an explanation to that effect.

It makes sense and is possible because the "original" timeline includes Trunks appearing, Goku fighting Zamasu, all three going to the future, Zamasu setting his plan in motion and fleeing to Trunks' timeline. When Trunks, Vegeeta and Goku returned injured they split the timeline because the outcome of that was Zamasu getting killed by Beers. Prior to that instance, two timelines existed: one where Zamasu turned Black and the one we followed. When Beers, a God, killed Zamasu, the timeline where he would have been alive also got destroyed because the only difference from the one we follow was his living condition, and this is why Black should have been killed instantly and Trunks should have disappeared because he would never have travelled back in the first place (possibly, Super's timeline would revert to the state it was before Trunks appeared -minus Zamasu-). The thing is, since Black had already fleed to Trunks' timeline, which is a separate world, by the use of the Time Ring, he got freed from the causality of his own timeline, which explains why he didn't vanish in Trunks' world (either because the Time Ring gives him protection or because he's in a different timeline, it doesn't matter) when the unsplit timeline he came from ceased to exist. So, this explains how future Zamasu exists, how Black still exists and why present Zamasu got killed for real before advancing his plan.

The important thing is that both present and future worlds are separate and don't affect each other and the travels are made between them. This also solves the paradox because, as far as both timelines are concerned, "Trunks appearing" and "Black appearing" are just events that happen in each history, with no causal point. Since the present timeline got further split and the "pre-split" version was destroyed by Beers, there's no paradox to deal with. We just wound up with a "timeline-crasher" Black that belongs nowhere.

Where does it say them returning injured caused a timeline split?? Further where does it say there's a timeline where they don't return injured? Did they get killed or defeat Zamasu in that timeline?

[alakazam^]

Where does it say them returning injured caused a timeline split?? Further where does it say there's a timeline where they don't return injured? Did they get killed or defeat Zamasu in that timeline?

There had to be a split somewhere to allow a world where Zamasu wasn't killed and created Black and one where he got killed before doing anything. Since Toei used the same fighting scene in Black's flashback (let's assume it wasn't a visual representation), then the split had to occur sometime after they fought, which is what ignited Zamasu's hatred further anyway. Luckily, they travelled to the future and, when they came back after dealing with Black and Zamasu, the timeline split to allow both "Zamasu alive" and "Zamasu dead" events to occur, because the information they gathered and discussed with Beers and Whis was what set Zamasu's death in motion. That original timeline is where the paradox would have occured but since Beers destroyed it, there's no paradox to deal with. This also means that the Super Dragon Balls won't be destroyed in the future by Zamasu nor will Goku get his body switched by him sometime later in the series (The Babarian still gets killed when 1000 years pass, though).

Them being injured isn't relevant for the split, them returning with the future information is, which is why It has to occur after Goku and Zamasu fight but before they return from the future (or when they first travel), because after that there's no way Zamasu gets to live.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Except that's what the manga does, it makes it so that Zamasu will become obsessed with Goku regardless of whether they fight. Zamasu becomes Black without Trunks or Goku or Beerus interaction at all. The manga solved the issue. The anime didn't and actually seemed to make it worse.

Manga doesn't solve anything. He still hadn't met Goku yet. They still haven't fought yet, the anime has GodTube which is exactly the same thing as what the Manga did a way for him to be intro'd to Goku but we still don't know how or why Goku fights him in both version yet. The Manga can easily "solve" everything if Whis is like before they head off , I was meaning to take you there anyway or something otherwise it's just gonna be exactly like the anime and were gonna work off implications from the information given.

It's implied that Goku and Zamasu were going to fight at some point regardless of Trunks. And it makes sense. They just never delved too much into it.

When was that implied?

Black said he and Goku fought. Trunks never showed up in that timeline thus implying Goku and he were always destined to fight regardless of Trunks.

What I really want to know is what kind of boost is black getting?. They sure do not seem like zenkai. He is getting stronger instantly.

Black says a God in Saiyan's body is a gift and seeing how strong he keeps getting may imply Black being a God he can easily manipulate the Zenkai gene.

[spoiler]It's pretty much confirmed that Zeno will kill Zamasu/Black, just look at the 65 episode title.[/spoiler]

No it doesn't. KoA has never been referred to that title at all. Considering Black and Zamasu are very narcissistic it's very likely what they've called their merged selves.

[TheMikado]

Where does it say them returning injured caused a timeline split?? Further where does it say there's a timeline where they don't return injured? Did they get killed or defeat Zamasu in that timeline?

There had to be a split somewhere to allow a world where Zamasu wasn't killed and created Black and one where he got killed before doing anything. Since Toei used the same fighting scene in Black's flashback (let's assume it wasn't a visual representation), then the split had to occur sometime after they fought, which is what ignited Zamasu's hatred further anyway. Luckily, they travelled to the future and, when they came back after dealing with Black and Zamasu, the timeline split to allow both "Zamasu alive" and "Zamasu dead" events to occur, because the information they gathered and discussed with Beers and Whis was what set Zamasu's death in motion. That original timeline is where the paradox would have occured but since Beers destroyed it, there's no paradox to deal with. This also means that the Super Dragon Balls won't be destroyed in the future by Zamasu nor will Goku get his body switched by him sometime later in the series (The Babarian still gets killed when 1000 years pass, though).

Them being injured isn't relevant for the split, them returning with the future information is, which is why It has to occur after Goku and Zamasu fight but before they return from the future (or when they first travel), because after that there's no way Zamasu gets to live.

So you just made up whenever you thought should happen and stated that as fact?

[TheMikado]

Except that's what the manga does, it makes it so that Zamasu will become obsessed with Goku regardless of whether they fight. Zamasu becomes Black without Trunks or Goku or Beerus interaction at all. The manga solved the issue. The anime didn't and actually seemed to make it worse.

Manga doesn't solve anything. He still hadn't met Goku yet. They still haven't fought yet, the anime has GodTube which is exactly the same thing as what the Manga did a way for him to be intro'd to Goku but we still don't know how or why Goku fights him in both version yet. The Manga can easily "solve" everything if Whis is like before they head off , I was meaning to take you there anyway or something otherwise it's just gonna be exactly like the anime and were gonna work off implications from the information given.

I'm not understanding what you are saying at all. Are you assuming the manga is going to definitely have Zamasu fight him? All I was saying is that the manga specifically set up a way to get out of the problem the current anime is experiencing by any of the below methods via the fact that Zamasu learned about Goku third-hand.

1) Zamasu and Goku never actually fight/meet before switching. Zamasu learns about Goku defeating Buu and becomes obsessed and switches bodies.
2) Zamasu and Goku meet and fight after Zamasu seeks him out following Kaioshin's information.
3) Zamasu and Goku fight for so different reason that the manga explains.

My point is the manga still has a chance to explain things in a way that makes sense and is different from the anime because it has set itself up to do so.
Because of the unique setup of the manga, its possible the loop solution will not be able to exist in the anime.

Why are you assuming things will play out the same in the manga, when they have already substantially diverged?

[Bullza]

Just watched Freedom's video yesterday trying to explain the time paradox. It's a complicated video but he and the other guy he's talking to seem to think that Black is indeed the Present Zamasu.

Which kinda does make sense what with Black talking to Goku about his defeat and them showing a flashback of it.

[Noah]

Does anyone wonder where black actually got his clothing from lol. It's something small but it made me wonder especially after seeing episode 61 with him having the Kaioshin clothes first. It's a cool colored outfit :].

I just assume that all Kaioshins know the clothes beam technique...

Easily the most metrossexual attack

The flashback when Goku and Zamasu fought is exactly the same as Episode 53 implying that this isn't a timeline where Trunks never arrived since Goku only met and fought Zamasu because they wanted to know if he was Black. Zamasu didn't say, I saw Goku on Godtube, went to meet him, and lost in a fight. He said Goku gave him a crushing defeat and we see Goku and Zamasu's sparring match from Episode 53, implying that a time loop has happened.

So, let get me this straight: You're saying that we shouldn't take the flashback as something that actually happened just like when Cell was talking about Trunks in his timeline and we suddenly got a flashback of him killing Freeza (which should be impossible in his timeline)?

Because, I can't see Goku casually having a match with Zamasu because reasons, Zamasu knowing about Goku in that TV thing or something seems more valuable, even though there's no statement of that, sadly.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Jerome from MangaUK has confirmed an English Dub is in production. By whom is now the question...

[Jinzoningen MULE]

[spoiler]It's pretty much confirmed that Zeno will kill Zamasu/Black, just look at the 65 episode title.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]The Supreme God (or whatever the title was) could easily refer to of fused Zamasu.[/spoiler]

[Lord Beerus]

Jerome from MangaUK has confirmed an English Dub is in production. By whom is now the question...

It's gotta be by FUNimation. I mean, we did get Kai with the FUNi voice actors and I can't imagine any other English cast that would be dubbing for Super to debut in the UK or the US to have any other cast than that of FUNimation's.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Jerome from MangaUK has confirmed an English Dub is in production. By whom is now the question...

It's gotta be by FUNimation. I mean, we did get Kai with the FUNi voice actors and I can't imagine any other English cast that would be dubbing for Super to debut in the UK or the US to have any other cast than that of FUNimation's.

He hasn't said it's for the UK or anything but generally there is an dub production for Super going on. Could be the toonami Asia one but I doubt it given recent announcements namely the fact that even Toonami Asia have no idea what's going on with their dub.

[Alruneia]

Minor comment: Correct me if I'm wrong, but Black is not immortal, right?
We've been over this a bit already, but I wonder if his mortality will come into play after Episode 64's fusion. Will Zamack/Merged Zamasu be immortal because of Zamasu? Will he be mortal because of Black? Because I'm thinking that the Evil Containment Wave will fail, forcing our heroes to find another way to defeat Zamack. Maybe Black's mortality is a weak point it's possible to exploit. What do you think?

[ArchedThunder]

Jerome from MangaUK has confirmed an English Dub is in production. By whom is now the question...

Well we know a big merchandising push for Dragon Ball Super is going to start in America in Summer 2017, so Toei, Funimation and a network probably worked out a deal and the show will start in Summer and in the mean time Funimation has time to work ahead on the dub, which is actually really useful for their actors who have other stuff they have to do, like Jason Douglas being in The Walking Dead.

[Nejishiki]

Minor comment: Correct me if I'm wrong, but Black is not immortal, right?
We've been over this a bit already, but I wonder if his mortality will come into play after Episode 64's fusion. Will Zamack/Merged Zamasu be immortal because of Zamasu? Will he be mortal because of Black? Because I'm thinking that the Evil Containment Wave will fail, forcing our heroes to find another way to defeat Zamack. Maybe Black's mortality is a weak point it's possible to exploit. What do you think?

Goku Black is not immortal. Future Zamasu wanted him to be immortal, but he declined the offer. He doesn't want to rely on it and rust his skill. I think translation confusion was present with that exchange.

[Alruneia]

Minor comment: Correct me if I'm wrong, but Black is not immortal, right?

Goku Black is not immortal. Future Zamasu wanted him to be immortal, but he declined the offer. He doesn't want to rely on it and rust his skill. I think translation confusion was present with that exchange.

Yes, it sure was. I saw a heated debate on Facebook about whether he was immortal or not, and both sides used episode screenshots with subs.

[namekiansaiyan]

Jerome from MangaUK has confirmed an English Dub is in production. By whom is now the question...

It's gotta be by FUNimation. I mean, we did get Kai with the FUNi voice actors and I can't imagine any other English cast that would be dubbing for Super to debut in the UK or the US to have any other cast than that of FUNimation's.

He hasn't said it's for the UK or anything but generally there is an dub production for Super going on. Could be the toonami Asia one but I doubt it given recent announcements namely the fact that even Toonami Asia have no idea what's going on with their dub.

Definitely Funimation due to Kai and the 2 movies.

[sailorspazz]

We've been over this a bit already, but I wonder if his mortality will come into play after Episode 64's fusion. Will Zamack/Merged Zamasu be immortal because of Zamasu? Will he be mortal because of Black? Because I'm thinking that the Evil Containment Wave will fail, forcing our heroes to find another way to defeat Zamack. Maybe Black's mortality is a weak point it's possible to exploit. What do you think?

I would guess that they want to give themselves the greatest advantage possible, so the merged version would probably be immortal, yet also somehow possess Black's ability to get stronger from injuries. Also, I wonder if Merged Zamasu will no longer have to rely on the time ring to protect his existence, since he'd technically be a different entity (theorizing here that Gokuu and co. may try taking the ring away from him so time can "correct" itself, possibly spurring this fusion so that strategy won't work)

Instead of showing that the heroes have a fighting chance, the spoilers only indicate that the Zamasu/Black combo will become even more unbeatable!