"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[Pannaliciour]

Wait wait wait

In the latest epsiode black/zamasu said to Trunks, you are the reason for all this. Basically going back in time by Trunks in the Androids saga is the one or the biggest reason for all this zero human plan right?

So problem one solved: after the new time ring appears ,caused by Trunks in Androids Saga, Zamasu becomes more evil towards humans. Get the time ring and meets future Zamasu> Thats the reason they came from u10 to u7 , because off "the trunks must pay" reason.

BUTT problem two not solved, why taking Goku's body?? The Godtube WOULD explain everthing but that flashback of Goku fighting Zamasu messes everthing up.

Btw doesn't it mean that switching body with Goku, black.goku isn't a Kaioshin anymore?

[Nejishiki]

<swish>

Their motive for human extermination goes beyond Future Trunks time traveling, but they are using his actions to justify a plan they already dreamed about. Consider Earthlings breaking godly law, time traveling backwards, an extra incentive to enact their justice harshly on them. Goku Black was intrigued by the progress Goku made alone and decided to make it his own. He speaks about this in their first battle, with how he can realize potential Goku never could with his body. He's still a Kaioshin, a hybrid of one at least, as only they can use the Time Ring. Don't forget that he still owns a part of his original ki signature.

[alakazam^]

So you just made up whenever you thought should happen and stated that as fact?

No, I thought about an hypothesis that solved everything using the information we have and this is it. If you found any holes feel free to point them, don't be obnoxious just because you're biased against the anime.

[TheMikado]

So you just made up whenever you thought should happen and stated that as fact?

No, I thought about an hypothesis that solved everything using the information we have and this is it. If you found any holes feel free to point them, don't be obnoxious just because you're biased against the anime.

You didn't hypothesize anything, you stated your version of the events as fact.

[alakazam^]

You didn't hypothesize anything, you stated your version of the events as fact.

I thought about it thoroughly, found no holes and presented my version of the events, nowhere did I say it was fact otherwise I wouldn't have to point out how that solved things. I don't need to say it's my opinion every single time, I assume people are smart enough to know the difference.

[TheMikado]

You didn't hypothesize anything, you stated your version of the events as fact.

I thought about it thoroughly, found no holes and presented my version of the events, nowhere did I say it was fact otherwise I wouldn't have to point out how that solved things. I don't need to say it's my opinion every single time, I assume people are smart enough to know the difference.

Just like with Super, If it's not written intelligently enough to present itself in a way that can be understood the onus maybe on the writer.

[alakazam^]

Just like with Super, If it's not written intelligently enough to present itself in a way that can be understood the onus maybe on the writer.

Exactly, just like the reader is responsible for how they misread stuff.

I asked for holes, haven't got one, that's nice. I guess this reinforces my theory being solid.

[Noah]

Just like with Super, If it's not written intelligently enough to present itself in a way that can be understood the onus maybe on the writer.

Exactly, just like the reader is responsible for how they misread stuff.

Like someone in this forum said is not the audience work to try solve plot holes?

[alakazam^]

Like someone in this forum said the audience work to try solve plot holes?

If they are solvable, they aren't plotholes.

The audience just gets involved with a product, there's no work here. If anything, the audience's "work" should be not being lazy and unfair otherwise they can't properly judge the product. An author can spoonfed the audience if he likes but that's not a requirement since the human brain is happy enough trying to fill any holes it finds.

Edit: Oh, sorry. That's my opinion, it's not fact.

[TheMikado]

Just like with Super, If it's not written intelligently enough to present itself in a way that can be understood the onus maybe on the writer.

Exactly, just like the reader is responsible for how they misread stuff.

I asked for holes, haven't got one, that's nice. I guess this reinforces my theory being solid.

I've decided to strictly address the topic at hand. First we will look at your original theory as a whole.

It makes sense and is possible because the "original" timeline includes Trunks appearing, Goku fighting Zamasu, all three going to the future, Zamasu setting his plan in motion and fleeing to Trunks' timeline. When Trunks, Vegeeta and Goku returned injured they split the timeline because the outcome of that was Zamasu getting killed by Beers. Prior to that instance, two timelines existed: one where Zamasu turned Black and the one we followed. When Beers, a God, killed Zamasu, the timeline where he would have been alive also got destroyed because the only difference from the one we follow was his living condition, and this is why Black should have been killed instantly and Trunks should have disappeared because he would never have travelled back in the first place (possibly, Super's timeline would revert to the state it was before Trunks appeared -minus Zamasu-). The thing is, since Black had already fleed to Trunks' timeline, which is a separate world, by the use of the Time Ring, he got freed from the causality of his own timeline, which explains why he didn't vanish in Trunks' world (either because the Time Ring gives him protection or because he's in a different timeline, it doesn't matter) when the unsplit timeline he came from ceased to exist. So, this explains how future Zamasu exists, how Black still exists and why present Zamasu got killed for real before advancing his plan.

The important thing is that both present and future worlds are separate and don't affect each other and the travels are made between them. This also solves the paradox because, as far as both timelines are concerned, "Trunks appearing" and "Black appearing" are just events that happen in each history, with no causal point. Since the present timeline got further split and the "pre-split" version was destroyed by Beers, there's no paradox to deal with. We just wound up with a "timeline-crasher" Black that belongs nowhere.

There had to be a split somewhere to allow a world where Zamasu wasn't killed and created Black and one where he got killed before doing anything. Since Toei used the same fighting scene in Black's flashback (let's assume it wasn't a visual representation), then the split had to occur sometime after they fought, which is what ignited Zamasu's hatred further anyway. Luckily, they travelled to the future and, when they came back after dealing with Black and Zamasu, the timeline split to allow both "Zamasu alive" and "Zamasu dead" events to occur, because the information they gathered and discussed with Beers and Whis was what set Zamasu's death in motion. That original timeline is where the paradox would have occured but since Beers destroyed it, there's no paradox to deal with. This also means that the Super Dragon Balls won't be destroyed in the future by Zamasu nor will Goku get his body switched by him sometime later in the series (The Babarian still gets killed when 1000 years pass, though).

Them being injured isn't relevant for the split, them returning with the future information is, which is why It has to occur after Goku and Zamasu fight but before they return from the future (or when they first travel), because after that there's no way Zamasu gets to live.

Hole #1

When Trunks, Vegeeta and Goku returned injured they split the timeline because the outcome of that was Zamasu getting killed by Beers.

Luckily, they travelled to the future and, when they came back after dealing with Black and Zamasu, the timeline split to allow both "Zamasu alive" and "Zamasu dead" events to occur, because the information they gathered and discussed with Beers and Whis was what set Zamasu's death in motion.

You are proposing a splitting of the timelines at a point where literally no one else has proposed because that specific point contains no known in-universe mechanism for splitting the timeline. The argument that this is where the timeline split would need to be stronger than " There had to be a split somewhere".

Hole #2

That original timeline is where the paradox would have occured but since Beers destroyed it, there's no paradox to deal with.

This may be a misunderstanding of what a paradox is. The crux of the paradox is that when Black appears, it leads Beerus and Whis to Zamasu and allows the Goku fight to take place. There is nothing in-universe to show that these events would definitely take place independent of Black's appearance in the present timeline. Where the paradox breaks down is at the point where Beerus destroys Zamasu thus it should end the events following it. The problem with this is that what I will deem point Zero, there would need to be a change in the timeline but under the exact same conditions.

Point Zero (Black appears and Leads Beerus & Whis to Zamasu) You seem to agree this takes place both in the present and "destroyed" original timeline.
We know that events also followed similarly due to the fight sequence. So now, the point where you claim the time line split is where they go into the future. My question to you would be why would they do anything differently in the original timeline if the preceding events are exactly the same. If you are claim they have what are these actions and why?

Hole #3

Them being injured isn't relevant for the split, them returning with the future information is, which is why It has to occur after Goku and Zamasu fight but before they return from the future (or when they first travel), because after that there's no way Zamasu gets to live.

You again seem to recognize the paradox but seem to be suggesting that given the same set of circumstances in one timeline they did not return to the future and the other they did. Again, in the timeline they didn't what happened? Were they content to let Black run amok in the future and just tell Trunk "sorry". This is the paradox of the present timeline. Where did present Black come from if every action following his appearance would have ultimately led to his destruction before he was even created? There would have to be some fundamental change in the original timeline and I am asking what that change specifically is that would allow them to let Zamasu/Black create himself.

[GodKaio-Ken]

It would be funny if someones slumped over body in the time machine hit a lever changing the destination by a few minutes and thus creating a new timeline that would solve all of our problems.

Unfortunately as of now there is no answer easy to swallow. Geekdom does a great job but at the end of the day he's just a (talented) fan like the rest of us. We need to let the story tell itself a bit more and then judge.

[Hellspawn28]

[spoiler]It's pretty much confirmed that Zeno will kill Zamasu/Black, just look at the 65 episode title.[/spoiler]

I don't think that will happen. I think Zeno meeting Goku is his only role in the story.

[Sodhi]

That whole thing with Zeno button was there for a reason. It may not be this arc, but it will defiantly come into play. Especially considering the weird placement of that episode.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Honestly I'm thinking the button will either just be used to bring Zeno to earth to meet his new playmate, or it'll be used to have him clear up some kind of remaining issue after Black and Zamasu are dealt with. I don't see them using him to beat the duo, because that feels completely at odds with Goku as a character.

Hell, he pretty much accepted Beerus destroying the Earth if he was unable to stop him. I can't see him liking the idea of summoning down someone else to defeat their foes for him.

[Lionel]

Allowing the universe to be endangered simply for Goku's extremist ideal of sportsmanship doesn't sound like it would sit well with Trunks or Vegeta. They're not fighting for self-centred gratification. Vegeta himself acknowledged that he was fighting expressly for the benefit of Trunks' world. It wouldn't make sense for them to be hesitant in summoning a potential ally who could do away with both enemies in an instant. This damages Goku's credibility further when you factor in the realisation of what happened to his alternate's life and family at the hands of Black. It was at that point where it became a personalised vendetta for him. Still, the moment he was beaten into submission it should have been where he discards his own feelings and use the button.

[Gyt Kaliba]

It certainly wouldn't be the first time they've bent themselves to Goku's whims though. Not to mention that Goku's completely changed gears after being serious about stopping someone before too. He was pretty dedicated to killing Freeza on Namek after he killed Kuririn, but by the end of the fight he was fine leaving since he'd 'won' in his mind and even fine giving Freeza some of his own energy so he could try to escape.

As far as Vegeta's concerned too, I feel like he wants to settle things for Trunks' future by his own hands, after that declaration. I doubt he'd also like the idea of bringing in Zeno to clean up the mess very much.

There's also the other issue with the Zeno equation - if they invite him down, there's no guarantee he won't kill all of them as well for having been involved in illegal time travel. They wouldn't really want to risk that, since it would basically be allowing Zamasu to win even at the cost of his own demise or defeat (depending on what happens further on with his immortality).

[vashter]

As man who said "White hair villain", that sound like black and zamasu merge into a white SSJ.

[alakazam^]

I've decided to strictly address the topic at hand. First we will look at your original theory as a whole.

Hole #1
You are proposing a splitting of the timelines at a point where literally no one else has proposed because that specific point contains no known in-universe mechanism for splitting the timeline. The argument that this is where the timeline split would need to be stronger than " There had to be a split somewhere".

Hole #2
This may be a misunderstanding of what a paradox is. The crux of the paradox is that when Black appears, it leads Beerus and Whis to Zamasu and allows the Goku fight to take place. There is nothing in-universe to show that these events would definitely take place independent of Black's appearance in the present timeline. Where the paradox breaks down is at the point where Beerus destroys Zamasu thus it should end the events following it. The problem with this is that what I will deem point Zero, there would need to be a change in the timeline but under the exact same conditions.

Point Zero (Black appears and Leads Beerus & Whis to Zamasu) You seem to agree this takes place both in the present and "destroyed" original timeline.
We know that events also followed similarly due to the fight sequence. So now, the point where you claim the time line split is where they go into the future. My question to you would be why would they do anything differently in the original timeline if the preceding events are exactly the same. If you are claim they have what are these actions and why?

Hole #3
You again seem to recognize the paradox but seem to be suggesting that given the same set of circumstances in one timeline they did not return to the future and the other they did. Again, in the timeline they didn't what happened? Were they content to let Black run amok in the future and just tell Trunk "sorry". This is the paradox of the present timeline. Where did present Black come from if every action following his appearance would have ultimately led to his destruction before he was even created? There would have to be some fundamental change in the original timeline and I am asking what that change specifically is that would allow them to let Zamasu/Black create himself.

About Hole #1:

I revised the time of the split a bit but otherwise the theory stays the same.

1) We know the timeline splits when something that was already established in its history gets changed in order to allow both events to exist. That's why Trunks' first visit split the timeline because he killed Freeza and handed over the medicine to Goku preventing him to die from the heart virus. We don't know if travelling by itself splits the timeline or doing actions that cause the change is what does, but it happens regardless.

2) We know Black exists. Since Black's existence is an actual event written in the history of the timeline, proven by Black himself existing, the Universe has to have a timeline where that is true. We know that Zamasu fights Goku, kills Gowasu, uses the Super Dragon Balls to exchange bodies and travels to Trunks' timeline. We watched Zamasu going to Zunou's about the same time they returned from the future so we also know this had to happen as this is necessary for the creation of Black. This means that a split had to happen between him visiting Zunou and them arriving at the Kaioushin Realm.

About Hole #2 and #3:

Black's very own existence forces the Universe to have a timeline where all the events culminating in Goku and Zamasu's fight and him going to Zunou's happen and in which he's successful in his plan to exist. Trunks' first time travel showed us that the timeline still follows its intended course even with slight changes so it's possible that them wanting to kill him still happened but there's a lot of wiggle room for things to change between the time Kaioushin arrived at Capsule Corporation and the time they went to the Kaioushin Realm. In this case there's no third party making the changes but the Universe itself adjusting the timelines to make Black's birth a possibility. We also know this can happen because the Universe fixed the anomaly created by the time machine and the Time Ring.

Black should have disappeared when Beers killed Zamasu, as he reasoned, ending the paradox but since he is being protected by the Time Ring (whether by the item itself or by being in a parallel world) his existence can't be erased indirectly from the past. This, again, leads to the retroactive existence of a timeline from where he originated. Since that timeline split directly from the present one, being based in Zamasu's life or death status, Beers' godly influence successfully erased it when killing Zamasu so there's no further Time Ring created anywhere. That timeline was also the one where the paradox existed so it also vanished since the present timeline we are following won't have a Black being created, which further means no Super Dragon Balls destroyed in the future nor Goku getting body-switched.

[Darkprince410]

As man who said "White hair villain", that sound like black and zamasu merge into a white SSJ.

Toriyama never said white-haired villain, nor did he even say the villain would have hair at all. He was talking about some unnamed character from well before Super was even greenlit, much less a planned character for a story arc that wasn't his idea to begin with.

[Nejishiki]

Allowing the universe to be endangered simply for Goku's extremist ideal of sportsmanship doesn't sound like it would sit well with Trunks or Vegeta. They're not fighting for self-centred gratification. Vegeta himself acknowledged that he was fighting expressly for the benefit of Trunks' world. It wouldn't make sense for them to be hesitant in summoning a potential ally who could do away with both enemies in an instant.

I'm fairly confident Vegeta and Future Trunks are unaware Goku has that. That knowledge is exclusive to the Kaioshin and Whis, if I remember correctly. Of course, all of those characters aren't in the alternate future anyway.