Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The way I see it, it's not just about how strong you are.

It's how you can use that strength. For example, Goten and Trunks are inexperienced martial artists, so they likely don't know as much about reading movements and landing solid blows to get past your opponent's defenses. So, whilst someone like Krillin may be weaker in overall power, he can take advantage of his opponent's fighting style more easily and set up attacks and defenses that allow him to hang in a fight with stronger fighters; this is seen best with his fight with Goku.

Goku has the clear strength advantage, but Krillin's expert skill keeps him on his toes and nearly gets him a few times.

[Jesus-is Lord]

The way I see it, it's not just about how strong you are.

It's how you can use that strength. For example, Goten and Trunks are inexperienced martial artists, so they likely don't know as much about reading movements and landing solid blows to get past your opponent's defenses. So, whilst someone like Krillin may be weaker in overall power, he can take advantage of his opponent's fighting style more easily and set up attacks and defenses that allow him to hang in a fight with stronger fighters; this is seen best with his fight with Goku.

Goku has the clear strength advantage, but Krillin's expert skill keeps him on his toes and nearly gets him a few times.

Or it's just terrible writing?
Kuririn got one shotted out of the ring while tien followed shortly after. The only reason they didn't go is because vegeta didn't want to bring kids into this, not because they aren't strong enough. Vegeta even told 17 that his son was pretty strong as well. And how can Kuririn be an skilled fighter when he hasn't trained in like a decade? Just bad writing from toei, nothing new.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The way I see it, it's not just about how strong you are.

It's how you can use that strength. For example, Goten and Trunks are inexperienced martial artists, so they likely don't know as much about reading movements and landing solid blows to get past your opponent's defenses. So, whilst someone like Krillin may be weaker in overall power, he can take advantage of his opponent's fighting style more easily and set up attacks and defenses that allow him to hang in a fight with stronger fighters; this is seen best with his fight with Goku.

Goku has the clear strength advantage, but Krillin's expert skill keeps him on his toes and nearly gets him a few times.

Or it's just terrible writing?
Kuririn got one shotted out of the ring while tien followed shortly after. The only reason they didn't go is because vegeta didn't want to bring kids into this, not because they aren't strong enough. Vegeta even told 17 that his son was pretty strong as well. And how can Kuririn be an skilled fighter when he hasn't trained in like a decade? Just bad writing from toei, nothing new.

In the episode following the Zen Exhibition Match, Goku and Gohan are discussing potential team members for Universe 7. The two of them decide that Goten and Trunks are too immature and inexperienced in combat for the Tournament of Power, even citing how Roshi has more experience.

As for the likes of the Humans, Krillin got cocky after eliminating Majora and got sneak-attacked by Frost. But besides that, he had shown great martial arts aptitude and skill, taking advantage of the tournament setting and rules both before and during the Tournament of Power, again with Majora and Goku and Gohan. As well, Krillin has indeed been training again after him and Goku went into the forest of illusions, and Goku takes note of how Krillin will be stronger and more useful than Gohan initially thinks; we even see more of this training with some brief images of his training equipment.

That's a good several months of intense training with renewed vigour and excitement.

[HeroR]

They are questionable. Piccolo wouldnt have used his full power against Goku because he was sparring anyway. It's also a shitty move anyway because even back in Dragon Ball it did not damage to Goku when he was standing a few feet away.

Ultimate Gohan was holding back against Super Saiyan 2 Goku so that doesn't tell you much.

If Goku Black was as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku and then proceeded to fight evenly with Super Saiyan 2 Goku then he was probably holding back.

Buu also was just sparring so he'd be holding back.

Vegeta is about as strong as Cabba and him blasting away Monna doesn't mean too much. He went Super Saiyan for Ribrianne but then Base Goku kicked her around.

Nothing is concrete about any of that.

He had no problem nearly killing Gohan. So why would he charge up an attack for several minutes if thd could just strange Goku like he did to Gohan?

Gohan was being rough house by Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Goku felt no need to go Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan yet he did against 17 who was also holding back. So why did Gohan have to beg Goku to get serious when he could have pounded Goku until he went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. He had no problem Turning Tien into a pancake despite it being overkill.

It was said he was holding back, but why would Black call Goku worthy if he was only even with Super Saiyan 2 Trunks, a fighter he regularly flattens.

It was never implied Buu was holding back and why would he against a stronger opponent. Like, when have we’ve seen Buu hold back against someone strong.

Sounds like you just assumed people held back against Goku when Goku is the strongest fighter.

[HeroR]

I was very adamant about the idea of Gotenks getting weaker since it was never stated but after seeing this:



They boys are clearly rusty. Also in EoZ they where stated to slack off so I guess I could buy that Gotenks lost power. At least his RoSaT boost. This would allow us to nerf base Goku and Vegeta a bit.

Having said that, base Goku has to at least be stronger than his SS3 form from BoG judging by his fight with Beerus in E42.

When people get weaker it’s stated in Super like with Gohan, Krillin, and even Jiren.

[shadowfox87]

Goten and Trunks should be Cell Jr. level now if you go by the manga. Each Cell Jr. was stated to be as strong as SSJ Goku post-RoSaT in Cell Saga. So I think Goten and Trunks are exactly where they should be. In the Buu Saga, each of them individually even as SSJs, would be weaker than Freeza. In Yo Son Goku, they fought Abo and Cado who were stated to be around Freeza level, and they defeated them but not easily. As SSJ Gotenks, they were stronger than Aka but SSJ Goku seemed even stronger when previously in the Buu Saga, it was implied that SSJ Gotenks ~ SSJ3 Goku. In that sense, I don't think Gotenks got weaker but rather, Goku got 8x stronger.

[ZombieVito]

When people get weaker it’s stated in Super like with Gohan, Krillin, and even Jiren.

That's why I said I am adamant about the idea. Still, look at Goten. He loses concentration and drops off of flying.

Where is it stated in Super that Kuririn got weaker?

Goten and Trunks should be Cell Jr. level now if you go by the manga. Each Cell Jr. was stated to be as strong as SSJ Goku post-RoSaT in Cell Saga. So I think Goten and Trunks are exactly where they should be. In the Buu Saga, each of them individually even as SSJs, would be weaker than Freeza. In Yo Son Goku, they fought Abo and Cado who were stated to be around Freeza level, and they defeated them but not easily. As SSJ Gotenks, they were stronger than Aka but SSJ Goku seemed even stronger when previously in the Buu Saga, it was implied that SSJ Gotenks ~ SSJ3 Goku. In that sense, I don't think Gotenks got weaker but rather, Goku got 8x stronger.

This is false.

[shadowfox87]

Goten and Trunks should be Cell Jr. level now if you go by the manga. Each Cell Jr. was stated to be as strong as SSJ Goku post-RoSaT in Cell Saga. So I think Goten and Trunks are exactly where they should be. In the Buu Saga, each of them individually even as SSJs, would be weaker than Freeza. In Yo Son Goku, they fought Abo and Cado who were stated to be around Freeza level, and they defeated them but not easily. As SSJ Gotenks, they were stronger than Aka but SSJ Goku seemed even stronger when previously in the Buu Saga, it was implied that SSJ Gotenks ~ SSJ3 Goku. In that sense, I don't think Gotenks got weaker but rather, Goku got 8x stronger.

This is false.

Thank you for that detailed logical response showing why it could be false.

[ekrolo2]

Goten and Trunks should be Cell Jr. level now if you go by the manga. Each Cell Jr. was stated to be as strong as SSJ Goku post-RoSaT in Cell Saga. So I think Goten and Trunks are exactly where they should be. In the Buu Saga, each of them individually even as SSJs, would be weaker than Freeza. In Yo Son Goku, they fought Abo and Cado who were stated to be around Freeza level, and they defeated them but not easily. As SSJ Gotenks, they were stronger than Aka but SSJ Goku seemed even stronger when previously in the Buu Saga, it was implied that SSJ Gotenks ~ SSJ3 Goku. In that sense, I don't think Gotenks got weaker but rather, Goku got 8x stronger.

This is false.

Daizenshuu 7 disagrees with you.

[ZombieVito]

Thank you for that detailed logical response showing why it could be false.

Mind giving the statement then? Since according to you it was stated.

Daizenshuu 7 disagrees with you.

Show me to quote that states SS Goku = Cell Jrs.

[shadowfox87]

Thank you for that detailed logical response showing why it could be false.

Mind giving the statement then? Since according to you it was stated.

Daizenshuu 7 disagrees with you.

Show me to quote that states SS Goku = Cell Jrs.

Well, given that SSJ Goku was exhausted after his fight with Cell and didn't eat a senzu bean, he was defeated by Cell Jr. SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Trunks in the manga were having a hard time, but this is the direct entry in Daizenshuu 7 for Cell Jr. stating that they are as powerful as Vegeta and Trunks post-RoSaT. After regenerating from one cell, the Cell Jrs. would have obtained zenkai like Perfect Cell, so they should be around SSJ Goku if not higher.

[ZombieVito]

Well, given that SSJ Goku was exhausted after his fight with Cell and didn't eat a senzu bean, he was defeated by Cell Jr. SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Trunks in the manga were having a hard time, but this is the direct entry in Daizenshuu 7 for Cell Jr. stating that they are as powerful as Vegeta and Trunks post-RoSaT. After regenerating from one cell, the Cell Jrs. would have obtained zenkai like Perfect Cell, so they should be around SSJ Goku if not higher.

So no quote then.

Them getting a zenkai in the manga is just speculation and not confirmed.

[shadowfox87]

Well, given that SSJ Goku was exhausted after his fight with Cell and didn't eat a senzu bean, he was defeated by Cell Jr. SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Trunks in the manga were having a hard time, but this is the direct entry in Daizenshuu 7 for Cell Jr. stating that they are as powerful as Vegeta and Trunks post-RoSaT. After regenerating from one cell, the Cell Jrs. would have obtained zenkai like Perfect Cell, so they should be around SSJ Goku if not higher.

So no quote then.

Them getting a zenkai in the manga is just speculation.

I quoted you the entry in the Daizenshuu 7. Getting a zenkai is more than just speculation, it's extrapolation. It's obvious that the Cell Jrs. would get a zenkai if Perfect Cell did after regenerating from 1 cell. Not sure why you would need an explicit statement stating that Cell Jrs. got a zenkai. If A=B and B>C, then A > C, do I need an explicit statement saying A>C?

[Bullza]

He had no problem nearly killing Gohan. So why would he charge up an attack for several minutes if thd could just strange Goku like he did to Gohan?

He didn't almost kill Gohan. Gohan was shown to be on par with Goku during that fight in Base form. Same with an episode prior and that Gohan was shown to be much weaker than Piccolo.

Gohan was being rough house by Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Goku felt no need to go Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan yet he did against 17 who was also holding back. So why did Gohan have to beg Goku to get serious when he could have pounded Goku until he went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. He had no problem Turning Tien into a pancake despite it being overkill.

Goku is his father not some guy he see's every so many years like Tien. We know Gohan was holding back because he went from getting kicked around by a Super Saiyan 2 Goku to vice versa and then briefly held his own against Super Saiyan Blue Goku.

It was said he was holding back, but why would Black call Goku worthy if he was only even with Super Saiyan 2 Trunks, a fighter he regularly flattens.

Well he wouldn't be. If Super Saiyan 2 Goku was able to put up a much better fight than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks then clearly he was the stronger of the two.

It was never implied Buu was holding back and why would he against a stronger opponent. Like, when have we’ve seen Buu hold back against someone strong.

It was never implied he was going all out either. We saw Buu hold back against Basil when he was dicking about and then became completely different upon becoming angry. Buu was just sparring with a friend. So it could never be that concrete.

It was never implied Goku held back against Krillin but he obviously was.

[ZombieVito]

I quoted you the entry in the Daizenshuu 7. Getting a zenkai is more than just speculation, it's extrapolation. It's obvious that the Cell Jrs. would get a zenkai if Perfect Cell did after regenerating from 1 cell. Not sure why you would need an explicit statement stating that Cell Jrs. got a zenkai. If A=B and B>C, then A > C, do I need an explicit statement saying A>C?

You said it was STATED that the Juniors were as strong as SS Goku in the Cell games.

That's false. No such statement exists.

[PFM18]

What exactly could be evidence to say that there wasn't a retcon and Base Goku and Vegeta kept their super strong Base forms starting from the Future Trunks saga?

Things like Goku stopping Piccolo's big attack and him hitting Frieza are questionable. I can't think of anything significant off the top of my head.

This isn't how this should be work. We shouldn't be finding evidence to find that there wasn't a retcon, we should be questioning the evidence that there was a retcon. The preliminary conclusion here shouldn't already be that there was a retcon. We need a large body of evidence that the things already established in the first 3 arcs of the series just suddenly must be disregarded in the last two arcs. We don't have that evidence. Therefore, ToP SSJ Goku>>>>>>SSG BoG Goku>Base Goku ToP.

So I think Goten and Trunks are exactly where they should be. In the Buu Saga, each of them individually even as SSJs, would be weaker than Freeza.

What? In the Buu saga the kids were Android 18 level in SSJ and only got stronger in the ROSAT. No reason to believe that they were weaker than Namek Freeza as SSJs based on the original source material. It appears Yo Son Goku has been retconned but even if it wasn't, they defeated Abo and Cado as SSJs who were as strong as Freeza. This is inconsistent with what was established in the Buu arc anyway, so it should be disregarded in favor of the original source material anyway.

[shadowfox87]

What? In the Buu saga the kids were Android 18 level in SSJ and only got stronger in the ROSAT. No reason to believe that they were weaker than Namek Freeza as SSJs based on the original source material. It appears Yo Son Goku has been retconned but even if it wasn't, they defeated Abo and Cado as SSJs who were as strong as Freeza. This is inconsistent with what was established in the Buu arc anyway, so it should be disregarded in favor of the original source material anyway.

They fought Android 18 as Mighty Mask. Do you really think Android 18 was even taking them seriously? She beat them easily. Abo and Cado were strong as Freeza individually and Goten and Trunks eventually defeated them as SSJs, but it wasn't a one-sided fight. Obviously they got stronger since the Buu saga.

[ekrolo2]

What? In the Buu saga the kids were Android 18 level in SSJ and only got stronger in the ROSAT. No reason to believe that they were weaker than Namek Freeza as SSJs based on the original source material. It appears Yo Son Goku has been retconned but even if it wasn't, they defeated Abo and Cado as SSJs who were as strong as Freeza. This is inconsistent with what was established in the Buu arc anyway, so it should be disregarded in favor of the original source material anyway.

They fought Android 18 as Mighty Mask. Do you really think Android 18 was even taking them seriously? She beat them easily. Abo and Cado were strong as Freeza individually and Goten and Trunks eventually defeated them as SSJs, but it wasn't a one-sided fight. Obviously they got stronger since the Buu saga.

They one shot Abo and Cado in Base form during the manga of Yo Son Goku.

[PFM18]

What? In the Buu saga the kids were Android 18 level in SSJ and only got stronger in the ROSAT. No reason to believe that they were weaker than Namek Freeza as SSJs based on the original source material. It appears Yo Son Goku has been retconned but even if it wasn't, they defeated Abo and Cado as SSJs who were as strong as Freeza. This is inconsistent with what was established in the Buu arc anyway, so it should be disregarded in favor of the original source material anyway.

They fought Android 18 as Mighty Mask. Do you really think Android 18 was even taking them seriously? She beat them easily. Abo and Cado were strong as Freeza individually and Goten and Trunks eventually defeated them as SSJs, but it wasn't a one-sided fight. Obviously they got stronger since the Buu saga.

They one shot Abo and Cado in Base form during the manga of Yo Son Goku.

Oh really? Didn't even know there was a manga for Yo Son Goku.

What? In the Buu saga the kids were Android 18 level in SSJ and only got stronger in the ROSAT. No reason to believe that they were weaker than Namek Freeza as SSJs based on the original source material. It appears Yo Son Goku has been retconned but even if it wasn't, they defeated Abo and Cado as SSJs who were as strong as Freeza. This is inconsistent with what was established in the Buu arc anyway, so it should be disregarded in favor of the original source material anyway.

They fought Android 18 as Mighty Mask. Do you really think Android 18 was even taking them seriously? She beat them easily. Abo and Cado were strong as Freeza individually and Goten and Trunks eventually defeated them as SSJs, but it wasn't a one-sided fight. Obviously they got stronger since the Buu saga.

I don't think she took them entirely seriously no. But that is why I think that I don't really consider them to be >Namek Freeza in Base despite seeming to compete to some extent with 18. At the max, Buu arc Pre-ROSAT they are 18 level but for reasons you mentioned they probably fall somewhere in the rather large gap between Namek Freeza and 18 as SSJs. Post-ROSAT I would imagine they are stronger than 18 at the very least during the Buu arc, but to what extent I don't know, they seem to still be weaker than Piccolo individually even after the ROSAT.

Have they gotten much stronger since the Buu arc? They don't seem to be doing very much. The only training sequence we see is when they briefly fight each other during the Zamasu Arc.

[shadowfox87]

They fought Android 18 as Mighty Mask. Do you really think Android 18 was even taking them seriously? She beat them easily. Abo and Cado were strong as Freeza individually and Goten and Trunks eventually defeated them as SSJs, but it wasn't a one-sided fight. Obviously they got stronger since the Buu saga.

They one shot Abo and Cado in Base form during the manga of Yo Son Goku.

Oh really? Didn't even know there was a manga for Yo Son Goku.

If you agree with that, then Base Goten and Trunks > Freeza (Namek) when in the start of BoG, Base Goku < Freeza (Namek). I'm not even sure if Yo Son Goku should count for continuity. Perhaps I shouldn't have even used that as an example. SSJ Goten and Trunks are definitely stronger than Base Goku and Vegeta from Buu saga but at that time, both Base Goku and Vegeta are still < Freeza (Namek).