Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[shadowfox87]

If Vegeta getting a hole blasted in his body trumps all other beat downs, then why was that zenkai 8 times weaker than his one against Recoome? Zenkais are random and make a fighter however strong they need to be to suit the plot.

Exactly. Zenkais are COMPLETELY random and don't follow anything even resembling consistency.

Where did 8x weaker come from? How do we even know what Vegeta's zenkai was in the first place? Freeza's fourth form pummeled him so it appeared that Vegeta didn't get any zenkai, but that doesn't mean he didn't get one. After his fight with Recoom, what did we even see Vegeta do other than just hold hands with First form Freeza? It's not even clear if Freeza was trying but he transformed anyways to make it an easier fight. Freeza fourth form toyed with Vegeta even after he got a zenkai to show how much more powerful Freeza is.

[PFM18]

Who cares about the anime?

Almost everyone, actually.

Yeah pretty much.

[Jesus-is Lord]

Who cares about the anime?

Almost everyone, actually.

Well I was talking to bergamo, and my point is that when it comes to power scailing. The anime of super should be disregarded in this context.

[Jesus-is Lord]

If Vegeta getting a hole blasted in his body trumps all other beat downs, then why was that zenkai 8 times weaker than his one against Recoome? Zenkais are random and make a fighter however strong they need to be to suit the plot.

Exactly. Zenkais are COMPLETELY random and don't follow anything even resembling consistency.

Where did 8x weaker come from? How do we even know what Vegeta's zenkai was in the first place? Freeza's fourth form pummeled him so it appeared that Vegeta didn't get any zenkai, but that doesn't mean he didn't get one. After his fight with Recoom, what did we even see Vegeta do other than just hold hands with First form Freeza? It's not even clear if Freeza was trying but he transformed anyways to make it an easier fight. Freeza fourth form toyed with Vegeta even after he got a zenkai to show how much more powerful Freeza is.

He's saying zenaki's are inconsitent and usually don't effect the plot unless they are started to have a real impact on plot. Kinda like what I'm saying with the cell juniors...but i could be wrong.
He got the 8x from when vegeta went from a power level of 40,000 (against recome) to 300,000 (1st form frieza) after one zenaki -. he also went from 300,000 to 2,000,000

[shadowfox87]

He's saying zenaki's are inconsitent and usually don't effect the plot unless they are started to have a real impact on plot. Kinda like what I'm saying with the cell juniors...but i could be wrong.
He got the 8x from when vegeta went from a power level of 40,000 (against recome) to 300,000 (1st form frieza) after one zenaki -. he also went from 300,000 to 2,000,000

Ah I see, well according to the Daizenshuu, Vegeta's power level was close to 30,000 against Recoome and 250,000 against 1st form Freeza according to V-Jump, so that's an 8.3x difference. Goku went from 90,000 to 3 million which is 33x, so he got a HUGE zenkai boost. The difference between 2 million and 250,000 is exactly 8. That is assuming he even got 2 million in the first place. He probably got less than that. I'm guessing 1.5 million which is a 6x. So yea, I guess zenkai are random. Sometimes I think that the fluid in those rejuvenation chambers have some magic. They're not as fast as senzu bean, but not sure. This is just me thinking out loud. In the Episode of Bardock (I know it's not canon), they showed that the herbs collected healed Bardock. Those herbs eventually is what created the fluid in the rejuvenation chambers years later. We'll probably learn about this in the upcoming movie as Freeza's technology borrows from Planet Vegeta's.

[dragon boss z]

Hence why I said "If",
I don't know why you brought up Kuririn. He's a joke and hasn't trained in 10 years, and he got one shotted by frost in the first minute without even throwing a punch, he's 100% absloute fodder and only here for comic relief.

I meant Krillin in the others fought against the Cell jrs (because they were holding back). My point was fighting Cell jrs doesn't mean much as they like to play around, not that Krillin is relevant, because I know he isn't.

[Jesus-is Lord]

He's saying zenaki's are inconsitent and usually don't effect the plot unless they are started to have a real impact on plot. Kinda like what I'm saying with the cell juniors...but i could be wrong.
He got the 8x from when vegeta went from a power level of 40,000 (against recome) to 300,000 (1st form frieza) after one zenaki -. he also went from 300,000 to 2,000,000

Ah I see, well according to the Daizenshuu, Vegeta's power level was close to 30,000 against Recoome and 250,000 against 1st form Freeza according to V-Jump, so that's an 8.3x difference. Goku went from 90,000 to 3 million which is 33x, so he got a HUGE zenkai boost. The difference between 2 million and 250,000 is exactly 8. That is assuming he even got 2 million in the first place. He probably got less than that. I'm guessing 1.5 million which is a 6x. So yea, I guess zenkai are random. Sometimes I think that the fluid in those rejuvenation chambers have some magic. They're not as fast as senzu bean, but not sure. This is just me thinking out loud. In the Episode of Bardock (I know it's not canon), they showed that the herbs collected healed Bardock. Those herbs eventually is what created the fluid in the rejuvenation chambers years later. We'll probably learn about this in the upcoming movie as Freeza's technology borrows from Planet Vegeta's.

Maybe.

I meant Krillin in the others fought against the Cell jrs (because they were holding back). My point was fighting Cell jrs doesn't mean much as they like to play around, not that Krillin is relevant, because I know he isn't.

Oh, I thought you were trying to bring up.... nvm. Yeah, that's fair though remember: toyotaro is a continuation of og db manga and that only, he uses nothing from the anime except the last two movies of Z. Kuririn holding their own against cell junior was toei-only filler but your point is well-taken. We just Don't Know.

[RandomGuy96]

1) Zamasu is not SSB level...
2) What's wrong with Chaozu paralyzing Goku for a few seconds? I see nothing wrong with him having better mental abilities than physically ones. Did you complsined when Tenshinhan held Cell back with the Kikoho?
3) Well they will get tired since they are suppressing themselves to not kill.
4) Them getting eaten by that fish didn't happen in Super. Still, there's nothing wrong with that.
5) Well duh, they were fighting a weaker Zamasu.
6) No he didn't.
7) I'll give you the 10% line.
Goku was just playing around. That fight wasn't serious at all.
9) Are you seriously going to complain about the gas grenades? It's practically the same thing as Trunks using the Tayioken.
10) Nowhere is it stated that Basil is dimensions apart from Boo.
11) Base Goku beating SS2 Caulifla was explained in the show...

1. He engages SSBs one on one more than once and can hurt them with his blows. Yes he is. Or at least, he's shown as being such when he really shouldn't be.
2. Because Nappa was able to no-sell Chaozu's telekinesis merely by being seven times stronger. It doesn't work on anyone regardless of strength. Base Goku from the Freeza arc is probably over seven times stronger than current Chaozu, much less Goku now.
3. This is literally the opposite of how it should work. Using less power shouldn't cause them to expend more power.
4. Them getting killed by a big rock still happened in Super, and yeah, there's a lot wrong with that. Saiyan arc Piccolo could blow up the moon.
5. Literally thousands of times weaker with no noted actual decrease? I don't think so.
6. Yes he did.
7. -
8. This is complete nonsense and you know it, as was discussed heavily when the episode came out. Gohan told him to give him his full effort. And why would he even bother transforming if in any of them he's outputting less power than his basic transformation or even base form? It makes no sense.
9. Yeah I am, because they can just fly away or not breathe it in. Tayioken is a straightforward flash of light.
10. Buu literally sat there and let Basil hit him over and over again to absolutely no effect, while laughing. When Buu actually started fighting back he flattened Basil in three hits. The difference in strength is enormous. Even after Basil massively jacked up his strength with that drug, Buu was still stronger (by his own words) and took him out with the first real ki attack he threw in that match after several minutes of letting Basil beat on him. Yet, even without the drug, Basil was trading blows with SS Vegeta and SS Goku and shrugging off hits from them despite them supposedly being SSG-level at this point. It's blatantly nonsense unless there was a retcon to bring the power scale closer to the manga where the non-godly forms of Goku and Vegeta are nothing special.
11. Not really.

Explain Kuririn evading Nappa.

He's like a quarter of Nappa's size (meaning if both have the same power he should actually be more agile) and not actually that far off from his battle power, easy. Same way Goku could evade Oozaru Vegeta. Meanwhile, SS Trunks engaging SSR Black and holding his own after getting flattened by base Black is absolutely not something that ever happens outside of Toei-Land. You're not even really trying anymore.

Or better yet, explain how in the Super manga Zamasu was able to dodge Blue Goku's attacks.

By "attacks", do you mean "one attack, after which he was immediately flattened with Goku powering down to SS1 within a page and calling him too weak to bother using effort on"?

Trunks absorbed the energy. That never is an addition. See movie 7, 8 or BoG.

You're literally citing Toei productions in an attempt to argue against me saying that Super uses Toei "logic." I made this exact same point, it's in fact the main point that I'm making. Super "makes sense" going by the anime and movies where a half-dead base Vegeta's energy can let Goku go Saitama on LSS Broly and base Goku can outperform SSG2 Vegeta against RSS Broly. It doesn't work in the context of the original manga where Goku contemptuously disposes of a guy half as strong as him with one hit to the gut and a Genki-Dama from all of the Z-fighters plus billions of humans can be deflected by Pure Buu.

No. He did not. He was getting destroyed until he improved his Time Skip.

Yes, because gaining enough power to increase your punching power by an order of magnitude (after shrugging off blows from someone multi-folds stronger than you with no issue) is better.

8 months. They used the Dragon Balls again in E29.

Not really any better.

Just because you restrain someone doesn't mean you are stronger. See Goku on Raditz or Giran on Goku.

You mean Raditz with his broken ribs?

It means you're close to that level. It means you're not completely irrelevant. It means that an errant counter won't wipe you out. It means that Piccolo wouldn't be able to restrain Super Vegetto.

You're also ignoring him blocking a bunch of Frost's punches. He's clearly on that level, if not quite on par with Frost. Even a tired Frost is stronger than the base saiyans and therefore far stronger than Freeza's fourth form.

No. It literally is that. He's using just a little more power than SS2 with Blue. There's no issue here.

Again, never stated. It's more likely he said that because the differences in forms are tiny in the anime. If he only wanted ot use "a little" more power, he wouldn't have bothered with Blue. Just use SSG.

[ZombieVito]

1. He engages SSBs one on one more than once and can hurt them with his blows. Yes he is. Or at least, he's shown as being such when he really shouldn't be.
2. Because Nappa was able to no-sell Chaozu's telekinesis merely by being seven times stronger. It doesn't work on anyone regardless of strength. Base Goku from the Freeza arc is probably over seven times stronger than current Chaozu, much less Goku now.
3. This is literally the opposite of how it should work. Using less power shouldn't cause them to expend more power.
4. Them getting killed by a big rock still happened in Super, and yeah, there's a lot wrong with that. Saiyan arc Piccolo could blow up the moon.
5. Literally thousands of times weaker with no noted actual decrease? I don't think so.
6. Yes he did.
7. -
8. This is complete nonsense and you know it, as was discussed heavily when the episode came out. Gohan told him to give him his full effort. And why would he even bother transforming if in any of them he's outputting less power than his basic transformation or even base form? It makes no sense.
9. Yeah I am, because they can just fly away or not breathe it in. Tayioken is a straightforward flash of light.
10. Buu literally sat there and let Basil hit him over and over again to absolutely no effect, while laughing. When Buu actually started fighting back he flattened Basil in three hits. The difference in strength is enormous. Even after Basil massively jacked up his strength with that drug, Buu was still stronger (by his own words) and took him out with the first real ki attack he threw in that match after several minutes of letting Basil beat on him. Yet, even without the drug, Basil was trading blows with SS Vegeta and SS Goku and shrugging off hits from them despite them supposedly being SSG-level at this point. It's blatantly nonsense unless there was a retcon to bring the power scale closer to the manga where the non-godly forms of Goku and Vegeta are nothing special.
11. Not really.

1.- Goku is not at full power. It doesn't make sense to fight someone immortal with your full power. He does the same thing in the manga, the only difference is that on the anime you don't get weaker by existing while being on SSB.
2.- Yes. Because Chaozu can't improve his telekinesis no matter what. You're right, that's totally absurd.[spoiler]/s[/spoiler]
3.- They are using more effort to fight so they don't kill them.
4.- That also didn't happen...
5.- Huh? I don't get what you mean. Trunks and Co. managed to hurt Fused Zamasu because he was weaker than his Corrupted form that only Vegetto could handled.
6.- Nope. Watch the episode again.
8.- They can transform for fun. The battle was not meant to be taken seriously.
10.- Well of course he can sit there and take it. His body doesn't get hurt by regular attacks and he only started to beat Basil when he got mad and likely powered up per Goku's words in E30, he can still do that.
11.- Yes they did. If you don't like the explanation then that's another matter but it's really a good one. E105 did the same thing too.

He's like a quarter of Nappa's size (meaning if both have the same power he should actually be more agile) and not actually that far off from his battle power, easy. Same way Goku could evade Oozaru Vegeta. Meanwhile, SS Trunks engaging SSR Black and holding his own after getting flattened by base Black is absolutely not something that ever happens outside of Toei-Land. You're not even really trying anymore.

It was one kick. ONE.

You are taking this way to far for just one simple kick that did nothing.

By "attacks", do you mean "one attack, after which he was immediately flattened with Goku powering down to SS1 within a page and calling him too weak to bother using effort on"?

Going by your logic, Zamasu shouldn't be able to see Goku move since he's hundreds of times stronger than him.

You're literally citing Toei productions in an attempt to argue against me saying that Super uses Toei "logic." I made this exact same point, it's in fact the main point that I'm making. Super "makes sense" going by the anime and movies where a half-dead base Vegeta's energy can let Goku go Saitama on LSS Broly and base Goku can outperform SSG2 Vegeta against RSS Broly. It doesn't work in the context of the original manga where Goku contemptuously disposes of a guy half as strong as him with one hit to the gut and a Genki-Dama from all of the Z-fighters plus billions of humans can be deflected by Pure Buu.

Battle of Gods is Toriyama.

Yes, because gaining enough power to increase your punching power by an order of magnitude (after shrugging off blows from someone multi-folds stronger than you with no issue) is better.

I don't see the issue here...

In E41 Goku even does more damage in one hit that Hit does in several. The power difference is very clear.

8 months. They used the Dragon Balls again in E29.

Not really any better.[/quote]

Sure. Training for x8 the time is nothing.

Just because you restrain someone doesn't mean you are stronger. See Goku on Raditz or Giran on Goku.

You mean Raditz with his broken ribs?

It means you're close to that level. It means you're not completely irrelevant. It means that an errant counter won't wipe you out. It means that Piccolo wouldn't be able to restrain Super Vegetto.

You're also ignoring him blocking a bunch of Frost's punches. He's clearly on that level, if not quite on par with Frost. Even a tired Frost is stronger than the base saiyans and therefore far stronger than Freeza's fourth form.[/quote]
You are forgetting that Frost needs to pull his punches so he doesn't kill Piccolo. He does the same on E107 while facing Roshi and even comments it's annoying to do it.

Again, never stated. It's more likely he said that because the differences in forms are tiny in the anime. If he only wanted ot use "a little" more power, he wouldn't have bothered with Blue. Just use SSG.

Because Blue in the anime has perfect ki control. How hard is that to understand? Even the show producers/writers said that Goku used Blue on the recruitment episodes to test the U7 members. he was doing the same thing with Kale.

[Bullza]

Meanwhile, SS Trunks engaging SSR Black and holding his own after getting flattened by base Black is absolutely not something that ever happens outside of Toei-Land.

Well the same kinda thing happened in the manga.

[SSJgogeto]

and my point is that when it comes to power scailing

Mine too. The manga is way more coherent than the anime, but most people still prioritize the anime.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

and my point is that when it comes to power scailing

Mine too. The manga is way more coherent than the anime, but most people still prioritize the anime.

That's probably because it's the more popular product that rests in people's minds, so we naturally discuss it more.

[Marlowe89]

Well the same kinda thing happened in the manga.

He catches Rosé Black off-guard and manages to land a hit in the manga, but then he's effortlessly brutalized for the whole rest of the fight and even admits afterwards that he's only capable of fighting Zamasu.

The anime probably tried to go for the same thing since their clash was super brief, but it was comparatively less clear about it. At least the following episode was a little better at illustrating the gap between pre-Rage Trunks and Black, which is supposed to be monumental.

[shadowfox87]

and my point is that when it comes to power scailing

Mine too. The manga is way more coherent than the anime, but most people still prioritize the anime.

That's probably because it's the more popular product that rests in people's minds, so we naturally discuss it more.

Popularity should not be the way to decide but consistency. Anyways, I hope that in the future, this will all change given that Toyotaro already said that his manga will be ahead of the anime in the future in the 2016 interview.

[shadowfox87]

1. He engages SSBs one on one more than once and can hurt them with his blows. Yes he is. Or at least, he's shown as being such when he really shouldn't be..

Future Zamasu is immortal, so he can engage anyone he wants. He is definitely not on the SSB tier. Goku literally states in the anime that Trunks is enough to beat him. He's only SSJ2 level as we've seen Present Zamasu spar with SSJ2 Goku and lost. His immortality is what keeps him alive. In the manga, Goku didn't use Blue but SSG and he was only using it to conserve his own stamina.

[HeroR]

When people get weaker it’s stated in Super like with Gohan, Krillin, and even Jiren.

That's why I said I am adamant about the idea. Still, look at Goten. He loses concentration and drops off of flying.

Where is it stated in Super that Kuririn got weaker?

Goten and Trunks should be Cell Jr. level now if you go by the manga. Each Cell Jr. was stated to be as strong as SSJ Goku post-RoSaT in Cell Saga. So I think Goten and Trunks are exactly where they should be. In the Buu Saga, each of them individually even as SSJs, would be weaker than Freeza. In Yo Son Goku, they fought Abo and Cado who were stated to be around Freeza level, and they defeated them but not easily. As SSJ Gotenks, they were stronger than Aka but SSJ Goku seemed even stronger when previously in the Buu Saga, it was implied that SSJ Gotenks ~ SSJ3 Goku. In that sense, I don't think Gotenks got weaker but rather, Goku got 8x stronger.

This is false.

After he was hit and hurt by a bullet in 75.

Also, that Goten scene was a gag, so I’m not sure if you should take it seriously.

[HeroR]

Mine too. The manga is way more coherent than the anime, but most people still prioritize the anime.

That's probably because it's the more popular product that rests in people's minds, so we naturally discuss it more.

Popularity should not be the way to decide but consistency. Anyways, I hope that in the future, this will all change given that Toyotaro already said that his manga will be ahead of the anime in the future in the 2016 interview.

I doubt that since the fact of the matter most people didn’t follow the manga even when it was ahead. Only hardcore fans did.

And the Super manga isn’t that constant either.

1. He engages SSBs one on one more than once and can hurt them with his blows. Yes he is. Or at least, he's shown as being such when he really shouldn't be..

Future Zamasu is immortal, so he can engage anyone he wants. He is definitely not on the SSB tier. Goku literally states in the anime that Trunks is enough to beat him. He's only SSJ2 level as we've seen Present Zamasu spar with SSJ2 Goku and lost. His immortality is what keeps him alive. In the manga, Goku didn't use Blue but SSG and he was only using it to conserve his own stamina.

Manga. In the anime, Goku never said Trunks could beat Zamasu. That and Black was certain that Zamasu by himself could kill Trunks while he held off Goku and Vegeta with his clones.

And why would Future Zamasu be the exact same strength as Present Zamasu when he’s 13 years older?

[ZombieVito]

After he was hit and hurt by a bullet in 75.

Also, that Goten scene was a gag, so I’m not sure if you should take it seriously.

I don't think that is sufficient evidence. Goku was also hit by a bullet in E77 and he shouldn't be weaker than before.

There's also the getting your guard down thing.

Manga. In the anime, Goku never said Trunks could beat Zamasu. That and Black was certain that Zamasu by himself could kill Trunks while he held off Goku and Vegeta with his clones.

And why would Future Zamasu be the exact same strength as Present Zamasu when he’s 13 years older?

Did Black knew they gave Trunks a senzu?

In any case, with time Zamasu will kill Trunks. No matter the power difference.

And yes Future Zamasu is stronger than present Zamasu but he shouldn't be THAT much stronger since he needs to be weaker than base Black when they meet eachother.

[shadowfox87]

I doubt that since the fact of the matter most people didn’t follow the manga even when it was ahead. Only hardcore fans did.

And the Super manga isn’t that constant either.

It's not constant now, but it may change in the future. In the past, people did actually read the DB/DBZ manga when it was ahead.

Manga. In the anime, Goku never said Trunks could beat Zamasu. That and Black was certain that Zamasu by himself could kill Trunks while he held off Goku and Vegeta with his clones.

And why would Future Zamasu be the exact same strength as Present Zamasu when he’s 13 years older?

Zamasu isn't a Saiyan that gets stronger after every fight. Trunks in SSJ2 was fighting him in Episode 63 in the anime. He was beating him too until Black interfered and stabbed Trunks. Future Zamasu being SSB tier is laughable.

[RandomGuy96]

1.- Goku is not at full power. It doesn't make sense to fight someone immortal with your full power. He does the same thing in the manga, the only difference is that on the anime you don't get weaker by existing while being on SSB.
2.- Yes. Because Chaozu can't improve his telekinesis no matter what. You're right, that's totally absurd.[spoiler]/s[/spoiler]
3.- They are using more effort to fight so they don't kill them.
4.- That also didn't happen...
5.- Huh? I don't get what you mean. Trunks and Co. managed to hurt Fused Zamasu because he was weaker than his Corrupted form that only Vegetto could handled.
6.- Nope. Watch the episode again.
8.- They can transform for fun. The battle was not meant to be taken seriously.
10.- Well of course he can sit there and take it. His body doesn't get hurt by regular attacks and he only started to beat Basil when he got mad and likely powered up per Goku's words in E30, he can still do that.
11.- Yes they did. If you don't like the explanation then that's another matter but it's really a good one. E105 did the same thing too.

1. Zamasu not only holds his own against Goku one on one, he hits Goku and Vegeta and actually hurts them. You're again assuming that they randomly change their power mid fight with no basis or evidence. He's on that level.
2. Actually, yes, he can't. No improvement on his part was ever noted. Even Kaioshin, infinitely more capable at this than Chaozu and probably everyone else EXCEPT for stronger and more gifted gods, was barely able to paralyze SS2 Gohan by his own admission. Yet apparently Chaozu who is orders of magnitude weaker with his mountain training could've frozen Buu? Yeah no. That's ridiculous.
3. Which, again, makes no logical sense. If they're using less effort then by definition they're expending less energy. Meaning their reserves should actually be much higher than if they actually expended a notable amount of energy.
4. In the movie it did, which is still a Toei production and an example of their power scaling.
5. What I mean is that no one actually noted his strength fluctuating thousands-fold nor were the mechanics explained. You're again just assuming that because the situation as actually presented is completely nonsensical.
6. Literally just did. There's an actual fight there and it's par for the course with Toei.
7. You can't just dismiss every single inconsistency with "you're not supposed to take it seriously." Of course I don't, it's Toei BS, but that doesn't excuse it. The whole freaking point of that fight is that Gohan wants to fight his dad at full effort and Goku gets "carried away" and cuts loose.
8. No, you're making stuff up again. All forms of Buu have been repeatedly shown to be damaged and hurt by regular physical attacks as long as they're at their level (they just won't die). Pure Buu was beating Mr. Buu to death and Beerus knocked him out without actually ki blasting him to death. He didn't care that Basil hit him, much like he didn't care about Vegeta hitting him, because Basil was a complete weakling. Your fan fiction about an anger power up is also nonsense. He didn't get any stronger when he got angry at Pure Buu, nor did anyone say he got stronger here. He smashed Basil like a bug because, by his own words, Basil was just a whole lot weaker than him. It's a very straightforward demonstration of Buu's strength relative to another character. Yet that same character can trade blows with SS Goku, who is supposedly god level, a few days later. It's another blatant contradiction unless, again, the power scale was retconned.
9. There wasn't any logical explanation whatsoever. It was just Toei having base Goku perform better than he should as happens in every single Toei production. I don't know why people seem to have short term memory loss when it comes to Super and just forget about Toei's past DB productions when trying to figure out Super. That the manga (which uses Toriyama's outline but none of Toei's ideas) doesn't have these issues just confirms it for me.

It was one kick. ONE.

You are taking this way to far for just one simple kick that did nothing.

One kick that actually seemed to hurt plus a protracted fight scene. I'm not getting held up on it at all, like Future Zamasu being Blue level, Chaozu being Blue level, base Gohan being god level, and SS Goku being at the same time god level and weaker than Mr. Buu, it's something that's pure BS by any reasonable standard but par for the course with Toei. Where Krillin can hold his own 1v1 against Cell.

Going by your logic, Zamasu shouldn't be able to see Goku move since he's hundreds of times stronger than him.

Being able to see people's movements is the one area I don't get held up on because the original manga was already inconsistent in that regard (cf. Satan watching the fights that he does). But at least the Super manga still depicted the massive gap in speed and power after literally the first blow despite Goku explicitly not using his full effort on Zamasu. If this was the anime they would have fought for five minutes with Goku looking like he's trying, then one episode later he'd flatten Zamasu in his half-dead base form, then one episode after that Zamasu would be able to grapple with his Blue form.

Battle of Gods is Toriyama.

Battle of Gods is Toei with some editing from Toriyama. And also not what you described. The Saiyans donating energy to Goku on its own was useless (which shouldn't be surprising since their combined energy couldn't even kill Pure Buu), it just happened to be a necessary precondition to unlock a transformation. The transformation is then what granted him power. This is why they had fetus Pan as a donor.

Tiny donations of energy letting the receiver take on people orders of magnitude stronger is pure Toei. It happens in movie 7, movie 8, filler, Super, and GT. But never once in the DB manga. It's again an indicator of what logic Super's power scaling uses.

I don't see the issue here...

In E41 Goku even does more damage in one hit that Hit does in several. The power difference is very clear.

The issue in that Goku is many times stronger than Hit yet Hit takes dozens of blows from him with no visible damage and proceeds to fight him for several episodes before inexplicably getting several times stronger (effectively) himself. Again, not something that ever happens in the manga. But happens all the time in Toei.

Though I think you missed the point of my original statement. When I said "I can no more trust X than Y", I wasn't saying that X was, in and of itself, irreconcilable (though it is). I was saying that due to the way Toei animates their fights, there's no real grounds for declaring that a character is equal to, stronger than, or weaker than any other character just based on battle performance. Because depending on the scene, anyone can hold their own against anyone or beat anyone. Going purely by Toei, the exact same logic used to argue that base Goku is god tier (for instance) can be used to argue that Krillin is stronger than the Android arc Super Saiyans and base Goku in the Buu arc is stronger than Ultimate Gohan. Or that Yamcha at the Cell Games is stronger than #16 because he landed a few good hits on a Cell Junior. Or that Gohan on Namek was comparable to SS Goku because he smacked around final form Freeza and made him use 100%. Or that Mutaito could beat Piccolo Daimao. Or that SS Gohan is stronger than SSG because he explicitly tells his dad not to hold back and fights him evenly in the same form (unless, again, the power scale got retconned, in which case that scene is fine). Or that Krillin is weaker than Tao Paipai because he got hurt by a bullet and this was explicitly said to be because his power decayed. Or that kid base Goku is the strongest character in Dragon Ball history.

Sure. Training for x8 the time is nothing.

Yes, it is nothing. Piccolo declined going into the ROSAT a second time in the Android arc because he thought it would be useless for him and he still wouldn't hold a candle to Cell, even though he was at Cell Jr level at that point. This was proven correct when he trained over the next 12 straight years and got no notable power boosts, gaining at a far lower rate than the Saiyans and ending up as a complete weakling next to even Shin. Yet 8 months of meme MOUNTAIN TRAINING is supposed to make him many times stronger all of the sudden. Probably stronger than the initial Fat Buu who he admitted he would have no chance of even scratching no matter how much he prepared, despite the ROSAT and two peer sparring partners being right there.

Yeah no.

You are forgetting that Frost needs to pull his punches so he doesn't kill Piccolo. He does the same on E107 while facing Roshi and even comments it's annoying to do it.

Except Piccolo could block him, not just avoid death. And restrain him with one arm. And defeat him with a ki attack he only charged for a couple of minutes and which when charged for 5 minutes only multiplied his battle power by three. And shrug off hits from him. And avoid getting instantly overpowered and tossed out of the ring. And overall not get instantly wrecked like what happened IN THE VERY NEXT MATCH when Vegeta one-shotted Frost.

I believe that you know that a hypothetical tournament fight between SS2 Vegeta and Piccolo in the Buu arc would not look anything like Frost vs Piccolo, even though Frost is supposedly way stronger than Buu arc Vegeta.

Because Blue in the anime has perfect ki control. How hard is that to understand? Even the show producers/writers said that Goku used Blue on the recruitment episodes to test the U7 members. he was doing the same thing with Kale.

Because it entails him going to his highest form and then only actually using a fraction of what he could use in a lower form. Which is stupid and makes one wonder why he ever actually uses a lower form.