Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

Zamasu isn't a Saiyan that gets stronger after every fight. Trunks in SSJ2 was fighting him in Episode 63 in the anime. He was beating him too until Black interfered and stabbed Trunks. Future Zamasu being SSB tier is laughable.

Missing the point completely. Yes, he SHOULDN'T BE that strong. But it's plainly shown that he is. Except when he isn't. Because Toei. The same applies to Trunks, who is at the same time weaker than base Black and able to hold his own against SSR Black, and is also at the same time one shot fodder to a SSB yet able to beat up a guy who fights SSBs 1v1 and visibly hurts and staggers them with his blows.

[ZombieVito]

Stuff.

Funny. You remind me of me when I joined the site so many years ago. When I thought power levels were the only thing that mattered in fights.

"If X character is this amount stronger than Y character then the later can't do anything no matter what".

I'm glad episodes 105 and 113 exist for this reason because they prove this stupid mentality wrong. Skill, experience, technique. All of this matters in a fight, not just "power levels". The opponent can also get cocky or drop his guard. The fighters aren't just big numbers cancelling each other out.

We're done here. Have a good day.

[SupremeKai25]

Zamasu isn't a Saiyan that gets stronger after every fight.

No, But he was a prodigy and a fighting genius who, per Goku, would one day rival Beerus himself.

Trunks in SSJ2 was fighting him in Episode 63 in the anime.

He was in Super Saiyan Rage.

He was beating him too

He was not beating him. Zamasu had him cornered and would have won if Trunks hadn't desperately tried to use the self-destruct technique to take himself and his immortal opponent out.

In the next episode, Black and Zamasu thought that Trunks no longer stood a chance against them. In fact, Black was certain that Zamasu alone would have been able to defeat him, hence why he sent him to kill Trunks, Bulma and Mai all by himself. Zamasu, too, said that there was hardly anything left to be gained from fighting Trunks.

Future Zamasu being SSB tier is laughable

If that's the case, how was Zamasu able to fight on even ground with SSB Goku in episode 57 and even managed to overpower him for a brief moment and kept him on the run with the Heavenly Arrows? How was he able to stand his ground against SSB Vegeta in episode 62?

[RandomGuy96]

Stuff.

Funny. You remind me of me when I joined the site so many years ago. When I thought power levels were the only thing that mattered in fights.

It's not "only power levels wins fights." It's simple consistency. Zamasu losing to SS2 Goku and then overpowering SSB Goku in a grapple without actually powering up between fights is not consistent. SS2 Trunks getting one shotted by base Black and then holding his own against SSR Black is not consistent. Base Goku being simultaneously on par with Beerus/SSG and weaker than Mr. Buu is not consistent. Piccolo getting one shotted by 1st form Freeza and then beating someone stronger than 4th form Freeza isn't consistent. Gohan going from weaker than base Goku to on par with SSB Goku in one day isn't consistent.

I'm hardly one to get held up on "power level gaps", nor are others who also gave up trying to make Super make sense like Kaboom, but this is ridiculous. You'll never find anything like this in the manga. It's all Toei and they've done it since DB started airing. When I realized that Super is just another garden variety Toei production and should be treated as such, everything instantly clicked.

I'm glad episodes 105 and 113 exist for this reason because they prove this stupid mentality wrong.

Nah, it just proves that Toei is being Toei. Nothing has actually changed.

The Super manga which has Frost contemptuously one shotting all of U7's fodder in a couple pages and Kale knocking out half the fighters with one hit each in a single chapter is a lot closer to the DB manga in that regard. Better for pacing too, as a bonus (not that the ToP in either medium is any good).

[Master Xar]

Stuff.

Funny. You remind me of me when I joined the site so many years ago. When I thought power levels were the only thing that mattered in fights.

It's not "only power levels wins fights." It's simple consistency. Zamasu losing to SS2 Goku and then overpowering SSB Goku in a grapple without actually powering up between fights is not consistent. SS2 Trunks getting one shotted by base Black and then holding his own against SSR Black is not consistent. Base Goku being simultaneously on par with Beerus/SSG and weaker than Mr. Buu is not consistent. Piccolo getting one shotted by 1st form Freeza and then beating someone stronger than 4th form Freeza isn't consistent. Gohan going from weaker than base Goku to on par with SSB Goku in one day isn't consistent.

I'm hardly one to get held up on "power level gaps", nor are others who gave up trying to make Super make sense like Kaboom, but this is ridiculous. You'll never find anything like this in the manga. It's all Toei and they've done it since DB started airing. When I realized that Super is just another garden variety Toei production and should be treated as such, everything instantly clicked.

I'm glad episodes 105 and 113 exist for this reason because they prove this stupid mentality wrong.

Nah, it just proves that Toei is being Toei. Nothing has actually changed.

The Super manga which has Frost contemptuously one shotting all of U7's fodder in a couple pages and Kale knocking out half the fighters with one hit each in a single chapter is a lot closer to the DB manga in that regard. Better for pacing too.

That really shows the terrible writing. What even is this show anymore...

[Bergamo]

Zamasu isn't a Saiyan that gets stronger after every fight.

No, But he was a prodigy and a fighting genius who, per Goku, would one day rival Beerus himself.

Trunks in SSJ2 was fighting him in Episode 63 in the anime.

He was in Super Saiyan Rage.

He was beating him too

He was not beating him. Zamasu had him cornered and would have won if Trunks hadn't desperately tried to use the self-destruct technique to take himself and his immortal opponent out.

In the next episode, Black and Zamasu thought that Trunks no longer stood a chance against them. In fact, Black was certain that Zamasu alone would have been able to defeat him, hence why he sent him to kill Trunks, Bulma and Mai all by himself. Zamasu, too, said that there was hardly anything left to be gained from fighting Trunks.

Future Zamasu being SSB tier is laughable

If that's the case, how was Zamasu able to fight on even ground with SSB Goku in episode 57 and even managed to overpower him for a brief moment and kept him on the run with the Heavenly Arrows? How was he able to stand his ground against SSB Vegeta in episode 62?

How did future Zamas get to Blue Tier? Why even steal Goku's body if he could get so strong by himself?

[PFM18]

Zamasu isn't a Saiyan that gets stronger after every fight. Trunks in SSJ2 was fighting him in Episode 63 in the anime. He was beating him too until Black interfered and stabbed Trunks. Future Zamasu being SSB tier is laughable.

Missing the point completely. Yes, he SHOULDN'T BE that strong. But it's plainly shown that he is. Except when he isn't. Because Toei. The same applies to Trunks, who is at the same time weaker than base Black and able to hold his own against SSR Black, and is also at the same time one shot fodder to a SSB yet able to beat up a guy who fights SSBs 1v1 and visibly hurts and staggers them with his blows.

There's very little actual indication that Zamasu is actually on that level. Like shadowfox said, his ability to compete with SSB tiers simply a function of his immortality/being impervious to damage.

As far as Trunks being able to damage Black at all, it was mostly a brief altercation in which he didn't actually do much of anything to Black and mostly a function of Black being caught off guard. And the difference in his ability to compete with Black was explained. It was a result of his training with Vegeta. As stated by the narrator and the episode description. I don't know why you are so confused considering this was literally explained as being because of his training. Trunks did not lose to Base Black and then immediately turn around and hold his own with SSR Black. That is patently false.

Zamasu isn't a Saiyan that gets stronger after every fight.

No, But he was a prodigy and a fighting genius who, per Goku, would one day rival Beerus himself.

Trunks in SSJ2 was fighting him in Episode 63 in the anime.

He was in Super Saiyan Rage.

He was beating him too

He was not beating him. Zamasu had him cornered and would have won if Trunks hadn't desperately tried to use the self-destruct technique to take himself and his immortal opponent out.

In the next episode, Black and Zamasu thought that Trunks no longer stood a chance against them. In fact, Black was certain that Zamasu alone would have been able to defeat him, hence why he sent him to kill Trunks, Bulma and Mai all by himself. Zamasu, too, said that there was hardly anything left to be gained from fighting Trunks.

Future Zamasu being SSB tier is laughable

If that's the case, how was Zamasu able to fight on even ground with SSB Goku in episode 57 and even managed to overpower him for a brief moment and kept him on the run with the Heavenly Arrows? How was he able to stand his ground against SSB Vegeta in episode 62?

How did future Zamas get to Blue Tier? Why even steal Goku's body if he could get so strong by himself?

He isn't Blue tier...not even close. Future Zamasu>Present Zamasu in power but he was never shown to actually be Blue tier. He is able to take hits from Blue tier opponents, but obviously that is simply a result of being immortal.

[Master Xar]

Zamasu isn't a Saiyan that gets stronger after every fight.

No, But he was a prodigy and a fighting genius who, per Goku, would one day rival Beerus himself.

Trunks in SSJ2 was fighting him in Episode 63 in the anime.

He was in Super Saiyan Rage.

He was beating him too

He was not beating him. Zamasu had him cornered and would have won if Trunks hadn't desperately tried to use the self-destruct technique to take himself and his immortal opponent out.

In the next episode, Black and Zamasu thought that Trunks no longer stood a chance against them. In fact, Black was certain that Zamasu alone would have been able to defeat him, hence why he sent him to kill Trunks, Bulma and Mai all by himself. Zamasu, too, said that there was hardly anything left to be gained from fighting Trunks.

Future Zamasu being SSB tier is laughable

If that's the case, how was Zamasu able to fight on even ground with SSB Goku in episode 57 and even managed to overpower him for a brief moment and kept him on the run with the Heavenly Arrows? How was he able to stand his ground against SSB Vegeta in episode 62?

How did future Zamas get to Blue Tier? Why even steal Goku's body if he could get so strong by himself?

It honestly just makes no sense. You’d think that this show had some sort of direction...

[RandomGuy96]

Zamasu isn't a Saiyan that gets stronger after every fight. Trunks in SSJ2 was fighting him in Episode 63 in the anime. He was beating him too until Black interfered and stabbed Trunks. Future Zamasu being SSB tier is laughable.

Missing the point completely. Yes, he SHOULDN'T BE that strong. But it's plainly shown that he is. Except when he isn't. Because Toei. The same applies to Trunks, who is at the same time weaker than base Black and able to hold his own against SSR Black, and is also at the same time one shot fodder to a SSB yet able to beat up a guy who fights SSBs 1v1 and visibly hurts and staggers them with his blows.

There's very little actual indication that Zamasu is actually on that level. Like shadowfox said, his ability to compete with SSB tiers simply a function of his immortality/being impervious to damage.

See everything mentioned above. He straight up challenges them in direct combat and hurts them with his blows.

As far as Trunks being able to damage Black at all, it was mostly a brief altercation in which he didn't actually do much of anything to Black and mostly a function of Black being caught off guard. And the difference in his ability to compete with Black was explained. It was a result of his training with Vegeta. As stated by the narrator and the episode description. I don't know why you are so confused considering this was literally explained as being because of his training. Trunks did not lose to Base Black and then immediately turn around and hold his own with SSR Black. That is patently false.

I didn't mention it because it was irrelevant. He trained for maybe a few days. If that did somehow make him literally thousands of times stronger with no one in universe mentioning it then that's just another example of Toei nonsense.

[PFM18]

See everything mentioned above. He straight up challenges them in direct combat and hurts them with his blows.

He really did not. I believe that you are mistaken. Sure, he challenged them. Did he show any signs of being similar in power to them? No, not at all. But the guy is immortal.

I didn't mention it because it was irrelevant. He trained for maybe a few days. If that did somehow make him literally thousands of times stronger with no one in universe mentioning it then that's just another example of Toei nonsense.

How is an explanation for Trunks becoming stronger irrelevant? That makes no sense. It was obvious to the viewers he was training with Vegeta and the narrator asks if his new power is enough etc etc. Your attempt to quantify it as being thousands of times is irrelevant. The point is, he performed better and an explanation was given and you pretended as though there was nothing in between Trunks losing to Base Black and competing with SSR Black. Which is either intellectually disingenuous or a result of not knowing about the explanation. Either way, it is a moot point.

[SupremeKai25]

How did future Zamas get to Blue Tier?

Training. That seems to work for the protagonists and Frieza, why not for Zamasu too, who was stated to be a natural prodigy and a fighting genius.

Why even steal Goku's body if he could get so strong by himself?

Because he didn't want to wait more than a decade to start his plan, and because he wanted to take on the body of a mortal so that he could forever remember their sins in the new world. As Fused Zamasu stated, it was always his desire to have a taste of mortality himself.

He isn't Blue tier...not even close. Future Zamasu>Present Zamasu in power but he was never shown to actually be Blue tier. He is able to take hits from Blue tier opponents, but obviously that is simply a result of being immortal.

He was able to fight on par with Goku and even overpowered him for a moment in episode 57, he was able to stand his ground against Vegeta in episode 61 and even punched him, causing him physical pain.

If Zamasu were not SSB-tier, immortal or not, even a basic ki blast from such stronger opponents should be able to tear him apart, then.

Remain skeptical if you wish, but I'd say that this fight clearly shows that Zamasu might not be stronger than a Super Saiyan Blue, but he is near that level at the very least:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SALXQ0j4QcI

If Zamasu were so much weaker than a Super Saiyan Blue, he would have been stomped effortlessly as soon as he engaged Goku, instead of trading blows with him and even forcing him to evade his Heavenly Arrows (whereas if Zamasu were so much weaker, his ki blasts would just tickle Goku and so the latter wouldn't need to avoid them).

[ZombieVito]

How did future Zamas get to Blue Tier?

Training. That seems to work for the protagonists and Frieza, why not for Zamasu too, who was stated to be a natural prodigy and a fighting genius.

Why even steal Goku's body if he could get so strong by himself?

Because he didn't want to wait more than a decade to start his plan, and because he wanted to take on the body of a mortal so that he could forever remember their sins in the new world. As Fused Zamasu stated, it was always his desire to have a taste of mortality himself.

He isn't Blue tier...not even close. Future Zamasu>Present Zamasu in power but he was never shown to actually be Blue tier. He is able to take hits from Blue tier opponents, but obviously that is simply a result of being immortal.

He was able to fight on par with Goku and even overpowered him for a moment in episode 57, he was able to stand his ground against Vegeta in episode 61 and even punched him, causing him physical pain.

If Zamasu were not SSB-tier, immortal or not, even a basic ki blast from such stronger opponents should be able to tear him apart, then.

Remain skeptical if you wish, but I'd say that this fight clearly shows that Zamasu might not be stronger than a Super Saiyan Blue, but he is near that level at the very least:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SALXQ0j4QcI

If Zamasu were so much weaker than a Super Saiyan Blue, he would have been stomped effortlessly as soon as he engaged Goku, instead of trading blows with him and even forcing him to evade his Heavenly Arrows (whereas if Zamasu were so much weaker, his ki blasts would just tickle Goku and so the latter wouldn't need to avoid them).

Did you forget how Goku easily blew his head off? And I don't remember Zamasu ever hurting Blue Vegeta.

[SupremeKai25]

Did you forget how Goku easily blew his head off?

It was a blast at point-blank range, so it dealt much more damage to him, as does any other projectile.

And I don't remember Zamasu ever hurting Blue Vegeta

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJcA6e6LWeA

Around the 2.50 minute mark, you can see Zamasu punching Vegeta's arm and Vegeta clearly emitting sounds of pain and forced to get back on the ground.

It works both ways anyway. I don't remember Vegeta stomping Zamasu, even though they fought in episode 62 off-screen, yet Zamasu was clearly fine despite having had to contend with Vegeta. Even if Zamasu were immortal, if he were much weaker than a SSB character, a simple ki blast would still be enough to tear him apart, and so he wouldn't have posed a threat to Vegeta at all.

[Jesus-is Lord]

Stuff.

Funny. You remind me of me when I joined the site so many years ago. When I thought power levels were the only thing that mattered in fights.

"If X character is this amount stronger than Y character then the later can't do anything no matter what".

I'm glad episodes 105 and 113 exist for this reason because they prove this stupid mentality wrong. Skill, experience, technique. All of this matters in a fight, not just "power levels". The opponent can also get cocky or drop his guard. The fighters aren't just big numbers cancelling each other out.

We're done here. Have a good day.

You got beyond roasted in debate, so instead of admitting he's right or even trying to debunk his claim...you just make a mute point and "cancel" (it's really running from) the debate. Oh gosh, getting youtube déjà-vu.

And pointing the atrcious power scailing does not mean that mr. Brainiac is arguing that if someone is stronger then someone, the weaker person shouldn't be able to do anything - it's more about the MAGNITUDE of differnce of strength. Majin vegeta was weaker then fat buu and he held his own for a little, super vegeta was a joke compared to cell but was able to damage him with final flash, 16 was able to grab and hold perfect cell - but having a fodder ssj2 swap hands with rose in a competitive battle is unacceptable, it's worse then having ssj goten being able to fight hold his own against Kidd buu. Does that make sense? No, ssj rose should have been to subdue instantly like he did in the manga.

You Loss This Debate My Friend

[Bergamo]

Did you forget how Goku easily blew his head off?

It was a blast at point-blank range, so it dealt much more damage to him, as does any other projectile.

And I don't remember Zamasu ever hurting Blue Vegeta

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJcA6e6LWeA

Around the 2.50 minute mark, you can see Zamasu punching Vegeta's arm and Vegeta clearly emitted sounds of pain and was forced to get back on the ground.

It works both ways anyway. I don't remember Vegeta stomping Zamasu, even though they fought in episode 62 off-screen, yet Zamasu was clearly fine despite having had to contend with Vegeta. Even if Zamasu were immortal, if he were much weaker than a SSB character, a simple ki blast would still be enough to tear him apart.

Zamas hurt base Vegeta. How does that help your argument?

[SupremeKai25]

Did you forget how Goku easily blew his head off?

It was a blast at point-blank range, so it dealt much more damage to him, as does any other projectile.

And I don't remember Zamasu ever hurting Blue Vegeta

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJcA6e6LWeA

Around the 2.50 minute mark, you can see Zamasu punching Vegeta's arm and Vegeta clearly emitted sounds of pain and was forced to get back on the ground.

It works both ways anyway. I don't remember Vegeta stomping Zamasu, even though they fought in episode 62 off-screen, yet Zamasu was clearly fine despite having had to contend with Vegeta. Even if Zamasu were immortal, if he were much weaker than a SSB character, a simple ki blast would still be enough to tear him apart.

Zamas hurt base Vegeta. How does that help your argument?

If Zamasu were so much weaker than a Super Saiyan Blue, he certainly wouldn't be able to inflict pain upon Vegeta, even if he were just in Base form. In the following episode, too, Zamasu was seen smiling while pursuing Vegeta, whereas if he were so much weaker than a Super Saiyan Blue, Zamasu should have been destroyed into pieces after having had to fight a Super Saiyan Blue opponent all on his own.

Another example is in episode 57, when he was able to hold down both SSB Goku and SSJ2 Trunks as Black charged the divine Rosé Kamehameha. If Zamasu had been so much weaker than a Super Saiyan Blue, surely Goku should have had no problem to free himself from his grip? Just like he did with Maji Kayo in the Tournament of Power, who was no match for Goku, and so his hold over him was easily shattered.

You, however, have yet to show me an instance when Zamasu was utterly stomped by a Super Saiyan Blue opponent.

[ZombieVito]

You got beyond roasted in debate, so instead of admitting he's right or even trying to debunk his claim...you just make a mute point and "cancel" (it's really running from) the debate. Oh gosh, getting youtube déjà-vu.

And pointing the atrcious power scailing does not mean that mr. Brainiac is arguing that if someone is stronger then someone, the weaker person shouldn't be able to do anything - it's more about the MAGNITUDE of differnce of strength. Majin vegeta was weaker then fat buu and he held his own for a little, super vegeta was a joke compared to cell but was able to damage him with final flash, 16 was able to grab and hold perfect cell - but having a fodder ssj2 swap hands with rose in a competitive battle is unacceptable, it's worse then having ssj goten being able to fight hold his own against Kidd buu. Does that make sense? No, ssj rose should have been to subdue instantly like he did in the manga.

You Loss This Debate My Friend

Are you 12?

If Zamasu were so much weaker than a Super Saiyan Blue, he certainly wouldn't be able to inflict pain upon Vegeta, even if he were just in Base form. In the next episode, too, Zamasu was seen smiling while pursuing Vegeta, whereas if he were so much weaker than a Super Saiyan Blue, Zamasu should have been destroyed into pieces after having had to fight a Super Saiyan Blue opponent all on his own.

You, however, have yet to show me an instance when Zamasu was utterly stomped by a Super Saiyan Blue opponent.

But he can hurt base Vegeta since Zamasu is SS2 tier.

Zamasu was stomped in episodes 61 and 63 by Goku.

[SupremeKai25]

Zamasu was stomped in episodes 61 and 63 by Goku.

A short rage boost, that quickly ended anyway. Black was also stomped when Goku got mad, that obviously wouldn't make Goku stronger than Black. Even so, My point is to prove that Zamasu was near the level of Super Saiyan Blue, not stronger or equal. That temporary setback he suffered in that episode does not convince me that he is so much weaker than Goku, when previous episodes (namely 57) showed otherwise.

As for episode 63, Zamasu was able to parry Goku's blows, and when he rushed to help Black, he was able to kick Vegeta downwards (whereas if he had been much weaker, his kick wouldn't have affected Vegeta). He was eventually overpowered by Goku, but he was taken by surprise from behind, since his attention was focused solely on helping Black.

Besides, Zamasu was also able to overpower Goku for a moment in episode 57, and held down both him and Trunks towards the end of the episode. And indeed in that same episode, you could see him trading blows with SSB Goku, so he had that much physical strength.

[Jesus-is Lord]

See everything mentioned above. He straight up challenges them in direct combat and hurts them with his blows.

He really did not. I believe that you are mistaken. Sure, he challenged them. Did he show any signs of being similar in power to them? No, not at all. But the guy is immortal.

I didn't mention it because it was irrelevant. He trained for maybe a few days. If that did somehow make him literally thousands of times stronger with no one in universe mentioning it then that's just another example of Toei nonsense.

How is an explanation for Trunks becoming stronger irrelevant? That makes no sense. It was obvious to the viewers he was training with Vegeta and the narrator asks if his new power is enough etc etc. Your attempt to quantify it as being thousands of times is irrelevant. The point is, he performed better and an explanation was given and you pretended as though there was nothing in between Trunks losing to Base Black and competing with SSR Black. Which is either intellectually disingenuous or a result of not knowing about the explanation. Either way, it is a moot point.

He challenged then to fight and was able to hold his own against them, just compare his fight against blue goku in the anime, and compare it to his fight against god goku in the manga. It's not even funny how toei screwed up the power scailing. Watch episode 56 and 63 for reference of goku vs zamsu in anime, and read chPter 22 for god goku vs zamsu.

2nd, that's weak hearted excuse. Just because he trained for a few days with vegeta does not justify his ssj2 to be on par with rose black, it's not like he fought the same goku black and did better. He got stomped by base black in ssj2, trained with vegeta for a few days, and swapped hands with a ssj rose black. Holding him off and holding his own, he even stomped zamsu the Kai who was able to hold his own against blue goku. That's terrible scailing. Is trunks ssj2>>>>>>ssj2 goku and vegeta? Is base trunks ssj3 goku tier... I mean that's what you'd have to be insuiating if you think it's justified ssj2 trunks being so strong.

Wait a minute...
Weren't you the same guy who complained about gohan swapping away a blast from kefla and claimed it makes no sense and how say gohan training regiment did not justify him for merely SWATTING AWAY AN ATTACK, not even fighting fist for fist. And you're the same guy who straight up lied and said goku as a SSJ god in super said fusion wouldn't be enough and used that false information to justify that ssj goku > ssj god in BoG. And when I asked you for proof, you already stated how you are going to "disregard" my post. And you call HIM intellectually disingenuous?
Oh...PMF

[ZombieVito]

A short rage boost, that quickly ended anyway. Black was also stomped when Goku got mad, that obviously wouldn't make Goku stronger than Black. Even so, My point is to prove that Zamasu was near the level of Super Saiyan Blue, not stronger or equal. That temporary setback he suffered in that episode does not convince me that he is so much weaker than Goku, when previous episodes (namely 57) showed otherwise.

As for episode 63, Zamasu was able to parry Goku's blows, and when he rushed to help Black, he was able to kick Vegeta downwards (whereas if he had been much weaker, his kick wouldn't have affected Vegeta). He was eventually overpowered by Goku, but he was taken by surprise from behind, since his attention was focused solely on helping Black.

Besides, Zamasu was also able to overpower Goku for a moment in episode 57, and held down both him and Trunks towards the end of the episode.

That kick he did to Vegeta was off guard and did no damage.

Zamasu can't be Blue level because Fused Zamasu would be already GoD tier without his Corrupted form.