Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Skar]

Well yes this is true, but this is exactly what I mean when I say that the scaling between the manga and anime is totally different. The scene where Goku retained the same level of power as SSG in his SSJ didn't exist in the manga and the scene where Vegeta trains for 6 months while Goku is farming and achieves power that is "completely unrecognizable from what it was on Earth." Neither of these things happened in the manga and they establish this enormous boost that happened in the anime and not the manga.

Okay so how strong is manga Cabba compared to anime Cabba? I always assumed the only power scaling differences between the anime and manga was that the anime had Goku use Kaioken so some of the antagonists were stronger than in the manga.

Well, yeah it is actually, even fodder of the current arc is equal or stronger than what was the big bad from the previous arc. Raditz being stronger than Piccolo Daimao, Dodoria, Zarbon, Cui and the entire Ginyu force are all stronger than the main villain of the previous arc, all of the Androids that weren't even the main villain during their arc(obviously being cell) were vastly superior to Freeza who was the main villain of the previous arc, In the Buu arc a henchman was as strong as the previous arc's main villain. This is power creep. It has been happening constantly throughout the series and I don't know how you came to the conclusion that this doesn't constantly happen in the series.

I don't think you're realizing how much of a power creep that would be and how it's far beyond anything ever witnessed in the original manga. Literally combining almost every power-up every achieved in the manga wouldn't come close to Cabba's power-up if he really was stronger than SSJ1 Vegetto in base. All of the training and various power-ups the Z fighters had up until the Buu saga including fusion and we're supposed to assume that Cabba would one-shot all those characters in base because he evolved differently than the U7 Saiyans? It's crazy to think that goku and Vegeta would've been fodder to base Cabba in their strongest forms prior to their training with Whis. That means that U7 Saiyans need to train with an Angel or perform the SSJ God ritual just to stand a chance against an above average U6 Saiyan who didn't undergo any special godly training.

Yeah, no offense but this is irrelevant to the discussion.

I know it's irrelevant to the discussion but I was pointing out how ridiculous it sounds. I would prefer if there was a different interpretation if one is available. Is the interpretation that Cabba is that strong the only valid one?

[ZombieVito]

Having an aura or not isn't what indicates that he isn't using Rage or not.

Well that's half true because the aura doesn't stay throughout the fight. However Trunks is shown with the blue in his aura prior to them fighting. It is then shown again when he blasts Black into the mountain. When he goes to blow up Zamasu it isn't there

As I mentioned with the hair, if you watch that scene again you can see very clearly, multiple times, that when he's fighting Black he has very spiky sharp hair. When he fights Zamasu it's nothing like that but the same as when he's a Super Saiyan.

So between those two things and that he said he'd lost a lot of energy against Black he was just a Super Saiyan.

It's weird that so many people Future Zamasu is the same strength as Present Zamasu despite 13 years passing and we had someone like Android 17 go from being weaker than Imperfect Cell to trading hands with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in a little more of a decade.

Well they did specifically say that Android 17 had got a lot stronger. They never said that for Future Zamasu. These Kai's millions upon millions of years old, thirteen years is insignificant in comparison so you wouldn't expect any major difference.

Present Zamasu fought and lost against Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Future Zamasu would have lost against Super Saiyan 2 Trunks had he not been immortal.

Speaking about auras.

In E57, I always had the theory that Trunks use some forn of Quake of Fury since his aura increases in size greatly and even gets red sparks. He then easily overpowers Zamasu and he couldn't do that again in E63 instead prefering to kill himself.

[PFM18]

Okay so how strong is manga Cabba compared to anime Cabba? I always assumed the only power scaling differences between the anime and manga was that the anime had Goku use Kaioken so some of the antagonists were stronger than in the manga.

Alright first of all, I wanted to say this has been the most civil discussion I have had in a while and I commend you for your polite demeanor.

Well there's quite the world of difference between the manga and anime iterations. Like I said, everything is scaled way up in the anime version because Goku ad Vegeta each had their respective experiences that put them on a completely different level than they were before. Neither character had these experiences in the manga. Whether it be First Form Freeza dominating everyone, then Goku being even with Final Form Freeza, Base Goku being shown to be drastically stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, Base Goku being able entertain Beerus,(when SSJ3 Goku didn't entertain him at all he was just flicked and then chopped and knocked out,) Or Base Goku fighting Buu and without seeming to be trying, complements Buu on getting so much stronger because he can keep up with him to some extent, everything is just on a larger scale in the anime.

In the manga, SSJ2 Gohan from the Cell Games is still used as a measuring stick, Dabura is treated as being a significant foe, etc etc. Things are simply on a smaller scale in the manga for the events that I mentioned before being absent from the manga. That is why the premise of saying "oh well this was anime-only so it doesn't count" can't work because the continuities are so different in power scaling. Kaioken exists too where it doesn't in the manga, btu that is kind of just the tip of the iceberg.

I don't think you're realizing how much of a power creep that would be and how it's far beyond anything ever witnessed in the original manga

I think the power creep is probably more intense here than anything in the original source material, but I mean there were still very intense examples of power creep in the original manga, maybe not to the same extent, but there is a precedent that is set. From the time that Goku fought Vegeta to not even a week later when he fought Freeza, his Base increased by almost a thousand times going from 8K->3M. Herms has talked at length about the intensity of the power creep or what he puts as "inflation" in the Buu arc. Where we have his standard henchman being stronger than Vegeta, his elite force being a couple times stronger than that, then Freeza being more than 4 times that strength, turns out that he has 3 additional transformations that increase his strength exponentially. To the point where Ginyu, the final antagonist prior to Freeza, was literally only one thousandth of the power of Freeza at his max power. The Buu arc also got pretty intense with the power creep.

Like I said, this example in DBS shows the power creep being at a higher extent than ever before, but it isn't as though there haven't been examples of intense power creep before, and at the end of the day it is what it is.

Z fighters had up until the Buu saga including fusion and we're supposed to assume that Cabba would one-shot all those characters in base because he evolved differently than the U7 Saiyans?

Well, yes. Aside from the different evolution we don't really know why he was so much stronger than his Universe 7 counterparts during the Buu arc. It could be any number of reasons in addition to the different evolution from an In-Universe perspective, but we aren't given any explanation other than that. Ultimately, Cabba is one of the strongest warriors in his entire Universe so I don't find it that strange. Additionally, it is worth noting that we find out later in the series that Universe 7 is the 2nd weakest Universe only ahead of Universe 9, and prior to the god ritual and Whis training, I would imagine they would be last by far all things considered. (There's debate on whether or not mortal level is related to strength, but it certainly appeared to be the case considering how easily U9 was erased first and considered the lowest mortal level)

It's crazy to think that goku and Vegeta would've been fodder to base Cabba in their strongest forms prior to their training with Whis.

Well, that isn't entirely true Goku got to another level of power after he retained the power he gained from the ritual,before he trained with Whis and Vegeta got to the same level training with Whis for 6 months and Goku was stuck farming for Chi-Chi. So technically speaking, that is only true for Vegeta and not Goku because he got to that level before training with Whis. Now this is more of a nitpick lol sorry.

That is just the story being told and I don't know what to tell you. I don't really mind it myself. Although it is much simpler in the manga iteration.

I would prefer if there was a different interpretation if one is available. Is the interpretation that Cabba is that strong the only valid one?

Well, there are other explanations, but they are pretty convoluted and I wouldn't really call them "valid" because theya aren't really well supported and are contradicted. One is that Goku and Vegeta have two base forms, one with God Ki and one not, and their normal base forms aren't that much stronger than their Buu arc selves, and the other I have heard being that Goku and Vegeta aren't really that strong in their base or SSJ, but early on they could mix God Ki and normal ki so they seemed a lot stronger than they were.

Now, neither of these are particularly rational, so I guess the "best" alternative is to just break continuity and just disregard what happened in the first 3 arcs of the show and "retcon" what happened then. That seems to be the most popular line of thinking outside of what actually happened in the story.

[Skar]

Well there's quite the world of difference between the manga and anime iterations. Like I said, everything is scaled way up in the anime version because Goku ad Vegeta each had their respective experiences that put them on a completely different level than they were before. Neither character had these experiences in the manga. Whether it be First Form Freeza dominating everyone, then Goku being even with Final Form Freeza, Base Goku being shown to be drastically stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, Base Goku being able entertain Beerus,(when SSJ3 Goku didn't entertain him at all he was just flicked and then chopped and knocked out,) Or Base Goku fighting Buu and without seeming to be trying, complements Buu on getting so much stronger because he can keep up with him to some extent, everything is just on a larger scale in the anime.

Both versions are covering Toriyama's outline so I don't know it was intended for their power scaling to different that much. That's why I was saying that some of these implications might not be intentional and it's due to the anime having several writers. In the anime, Beerus said he used 10% of his power against Enraged Vegeta. Goku used Kaioken x10 and Kaioken x20 later on and it was implied he was still weaker than Beerus which means that regular SSJB Goku is less than 5% of Beerus' power and SSJG is even weaker than that. That would mean Beerus needed WAY less than 10% to take on Enraged Vegeta. I'm not sure how strong Piccolo is supposed to be but I recall he put up a better fight against Frost than base Goku which could fit with the Buu saga power scaling of FPSSJ Goku > Piccolo > base Goku.

I think the power creep is probably more intense here than anything in the original source material, but I mean there were still very intense examples of power creep in the original manga, maybe not to the same extent, but there is a precedent that is set. From the time that Goku fought Vegeta to not even a week later when he fought Freeza, his Base increased by almost a thousand times going from 8K->3M. Herms has talked at length about the intensity of the power creep or what he puts as "inflation" in the Buu arc. Where we have his standard henchman being stronger than Vegeta, his elite force being a couple times stronger than that, then Freeza being more than 4 times that strength, turns out that he has 3 additional transformations that increase his strength exponentially. To the point where Ginyu, the final antagonist prior to Freeza, was literally only one thousandth of the power of Freeza at his max power. The Buu arc also got pretty intense with the power creep.

I'm not a big fan of the logic that because the original did something ridiculous that it becomes acceptable for DBS to take it to whatever extreme they want especially if only one version of DBS is doing it in this case. I would prefer to assume that maybe Toriyama intended for Cabba to only be a strong base Saiyan on par with regular base Vegeta like the manga implied than him being stronger than SSJ1 Vegetto if that's what the anime is intending for us to believe.

Well, that isn't entirely true Goku got to another level of power after he retained the power he gained from the ritual,before he trained with Whis and Vegeta got to the same level training with Whis for 6 months and Goku was stuck farming for Chi-Chi. So technically speaking, that is only true for Vegeta and not Goku because he got to that level before training with Whis. Now this is more of a nitpick lol sorry.

That's what I'm saying though. The only way for a U7 Saiyan to stand a chance against a strong base U6 Saiyan is either train with Whis and/or perform the SSJGod ritual. It sorta undermines all the effort needed to obtain this Godly power if Saiyans from a different universe just happened to evolve and obtain that power without any special training. If anime Cabba is already that powerful then how strong would he be after the SSJGod ritual or training with Vados?

[PFM18]

Both versions are covering Toriyama's outline so I don't know it was intended for their power scaling to different that much.

Regardless of what's intended, this difference is clearly portrayed. We can speculate about whether it was intended or not but that is just fruitless speculation because we don't actually have any clue whether it was intended or not.

In the anime, Beerus said he used 10% of his power against Enraged Vegeta. Goku used Kaioken x10 and Kaioken x20 later on and it was implied he was still weaker than Beerus which means that regular SSJB Goku is less than 5% of Beerus' power and SSJG is even weaker than that. That would mean Beerus needed WAY less than 10% to take on Enraged Vegeta.

Beerus also said that he used his full-power against Goku. Obviously neither of these were actually true. The way things look now, Beerus must have been using less than 1% of his power. As ridiculous as that sounds, Goku was only stated to have matched Beerus upon achieving the 3rd UI Omen, and that is obviously a minimum of hundreds of times stronger than his SSG sellf from BoG. We can only assume that he was lying in both cases, it would only make sense that if he lied for one then he lied for the other.

I'm not sure how strong Piccolo is supposed to be but I recall he put up a better fight against Frost than base Goku which could fit with the Buu saga power scaling of FPSSJ Goku > Piccolo > base Goku.

Well, there's a couple things to consider here. First, Goku never fought Final Form Frost in his base, so obviously you can't compare their performance. Goku only fought Frost's "assault" form in his Base and they appeared to be even. Goku used SSJ against Frost and so the obvious implication is that his Final form must be stronger than Goku's Base, but they never actually fought. Goku proceeded to dominate Frost as a SSJ. Secondly, when Frost fought Piccolo he was weakened from when he fought Goku. Goku beat him to the point where he had trouble standing up at one point. And if Golden Freeza and Jiren are anything to go by at all, the sky is the limit as far as the possible difference between a character's power in their max state vs being in a weakened state. So this isn't really a good barometer to compare Piccolo and Base Goku IMO because it is unclear where a weakened Final Form Frost actually stands compared to Goku for the aforementioned reasons.

I'm not a big fan of the logic that because the original did something ridiculous that it becomes acceptable for DBS to take it to whatever extreme they want especially if only one version of DBS is doing it in this case.

Well that's the difference in our viewpoints. I don't consider either to be ridiculous. Especially since the second instance is simply staying consistent with what the original series established and just taking it to a slightly higher extent. I don't have a problem with either instance so I don't really see this as a "two wrongs don't make a right" sort of scenario.

I would prefer to assume that maybe Toriyama intended for Cabba to only be a strong base Saiyan on par with regular base Vegeta like the manga implied than him being stronger than SSJ1 Vegetto if that's what the anime is intending for us to believe.

Well it is fair to assume that Toriyama intended for Cabba to be as strong as Base Vegeta, but the only difference is the way that Vegeta compares to his Buu arc incarnation in each medium. In the anime early in the series upon Goku meeting Vegeta on Whis's planet, Vegeta achieved power that was apparently unrecognizable from his power on Earth. This comment or a similar comment was never made for manga Vegeta. Anime Vegeta is on another level than his DBZ counterpart, and manga Vegeta is not. A consequence of this difference is that Cabba must be scaled up to match Vegeta in the anime. ABase Vegeta at this point just so happens to compare equally or favorably to Buu arc SSJ Vegetto.

Like I said, I have no idea what the anime or the manga is intending for us to believe and I am not going to speculate what their intentions were.

That's what I'm saying though. The only way for a U7 Saiyan to stand a chance against a strong base U6 Saiyan is either train with Whis and/or perform the SSJGod ritual.

Right. I get what you are saying now. My apologies, I don't think I completely understood your point until now.

It sorta undermines all the effort needed to obtain this Godly power if Saiyans from a different universe just happened to evolve and obtain that power without any special training.

Well see this is kind of misleading though because at the end of the day Goku/Vegeta have access to God forms that the Universe 6 Saiyans don't have access to. So it is kind of misleading to say that Goku/Vegeta obtained this godly power and the universe 6 Saiyans can match them because at the end of the day Vegeta was able to simply go SSB and one shot Cabba with no problems. Vegeta knocked Cabba unconscious with one punch as a SSB and Goku was able to use SSB to compete with a fusion of two Universe 6 Saiyans. So ultimately Goku and Vegeta's max power is far beyond that of any Universe 6 Saiyan barring fusion. The point is that Goku/Vegeta's Godly power is not THAT undermined because they still are head and shoulders above the Universe 6 Saiyans if you consider their god forms.

If anime Cabba is already that powerful then how strong would he be after the SSJGod ritual or training with Vados?

I don't really know. Like I said, things are framed similarly as the transition from Pre-Raditz to Post-Raditz. Goku may have been the strongest on Earth, but Earth is a pathetically weak planet compared to fighters throughout the Universe and the same goes for Universe 7 pre-Whis training/god ritual when compared to the multiverse. Goku trains with King Kai and in gravity training and now he has respectable power within the context of the universe. The same deal for Goku/Vegeta and Whis training/God ritual.

But maybe we will see something similar with Broly in the new movie? Something similar to the idea of Cabba having Vados training or a SSG ritual. Broly obviously didn't have a SSJGod ritual or angel training and he is going to be stronger than Goku and Vegeta of course.

[Skar]

Regardless of what's intended, this difference is clearly portrayed. We can speculate about whether it was intended or not but that is just fruitless speculation because we don't actually have any clue whether it was intended or not.

The reason I'm speculating at all is because of the difference in power scaling between the manga and anime. Toyotaro is just one person adapting the manga so it's easier for one person to keep track of what they wrote before than Toei's various writers to keep track of what every other writer is adding to the episode they worked on especially if we're told the anime production was rushed.

Beerus also said that he used his full-power against Goku. Obviously neither of these were actually true. The way things look now, Beerus must have been using less than 1% of his power. As ridiculous as that sounds, Goku was only stated to have matched Beerus upon achieving the 3rd UI Omen, and that is obviously a minimum of hundreds of times stronger than his SSG sellf from BoG. We can only assume that he was lying in both cases, it would only make sense that if he lied for one then he lied for the other.

I gave that example as someone writing in that line about him using 10% without considering the implication. We're now left to assume he was lying about that specific percentage because it doesn't fit with what was revealed later on. I just think they had more collaboration that they wouldn't be including lines that contradict anything which force us to assume the character the lying.

Well, there's a couple things to consider here. First, Goku never fought Final Form Frost in his base, so obviously you can't compare their performance. Goku only fought Frost's "assault" form in his Base and they appeared to be even. Goku used SSJ against Frost and so the obvious implication is that his Final form must be stronger than Goku's Base, but they never actually fought. Goku proceeded to dominate Frost as a SSJ. Secondly, when Frost fought Piccolo he was weakened from when he fought Goku. Goku beat him to the point where he had trouble standing up at one point. And if Golden Freeza and Jiren are anything to go by at all, the sky is the limit as far as the possible difference between a character's power in their max state vs being in a weakened state. So this isn't really a good barometer to compare Piccolo and Base Goku IMO because it is unclear where a weakened Final Form Frost actually stands compared to Goku for the aforementioned reasons.

I just think it requires extra assumptions to make it fit with the other implications from the anime than simply assuming SSJ1 Goku > Piccolo > base Goku. If base Goku and Frost are both as strong/stronger than SSJ1 Vegetto then that has to be at least a hundred times stronger than Piccolo. We have to assume Frost lost over 99% of his power so that Piccolo could last more than a few seconds against him.

Well that's the difference in our viewpoints. I don't consider either to be ridiculous. Especially since the second instance is simply staying consistent with what the original series established and just taking it to a slightly higher extent. I don't have a problem with either instance so I don't really see this as a "two wrongs don't make a right" sort of scenario.

I don't think it's consistent because that would imply that the manga was doing something wrong by not making Cabba that powerful. In the manga, he was just a strong Saiyan kid and Vegeta noticed he had potential so he wanted to help him turn SSJ.

Well see this is kind of misleading though because at the end of the day Goku/Vegeta have access to God forms that the Universe 6 Saiyans don't have access to. So it is kind of misleading to say that Goku/Vegeta obtained this godly power and the universe 6 Saiyans can match them because at the end of the day Vegeta was able to simply go SSB and one shot Cabba with no problems. Vegeta knocked Cabba unconscious with one punch as a SSB and Goku was able to use SSB to compete with a fusion of two Universe 6 Saiyans. So ultimately Goku and Vegeta's max power is far beyond that of any Universe 6 Saiyan barring fusion. The point is that Goku/Vegeta's Godly power is not THAT undermined because they still are head and shoulders above the Universe 6 Saiyans if you consider their god forms.

My point is that Goku and Vegeta's base form only reached that power after all that special training. The only reason they're above the U6 Saiyans is because all that training gave them an additional God form. If the series continued on without them meeting Beerus and Whis, who knows how long it would've taken them to surpass SSJ1 Vegetto or if they ever would surpass him on their own. It undermines all the effort Goku and Vegeta had to go through because Cabba was that strong without training with an Angel. For all we know, Cabba never trained in higher gravity or a place like the Hyperbolic Time Chamber either. If Cabba trained with Vados between the U6 saga and ToP and obtained SSJB, he would likely be far stronger than Vegeta given he was as strong as Vegeta's post-God training base form before that. It didn't seem like Cabba improved much after the U6 saga so I don't really understand how he could become so powerful on his own and then his growth then slows down after obtaining a new form and getting all this new motivation from Vegeta.

[Saiga]

So, I don't really keep up with Super strength discussions anymore due to a large amount of vagueness and inconsistencies, plus some large schisms in the fandom over how to interpret certain things.

However, I'm kind of wondering how people powerscale Vegetto in Super, because it seems like Blue Vegetto would be a huge issue in power-scaling.

Like, looking at him back in the Boo arc, Super Vegetto effortlessly thrashed Boohan. This guy is Evil Boo + Ultimate Gohan, where Evil Boo was way too strong for SS3 Goku to fight and Ultimate Gohan was significantly stronger than that. So, Boohan's more than double a guy SS3 Goku can't beat, and Super Vegetto trashes him. That guy can potentially have Super Saiyan 2 and 3 on top of that.

Flash forward to BOG, where Goku said that fusion wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus. There have been a lot of arguments on how accurate this was, and whether it took into account Super Saiyan 2 & 3. Assuming it wasn't a total lie, it makes SSG a tremendous boost for Goku at that point, with SSB being a further increase for him.

So, with that in mind, how do you power scale Boo arc Vegetto and Blue Vegetto? Are you able to keep the same boost for both separate instances of fusion and fit it with the other relevant quotes? Where does Blue Vegetto stack up compared to Beerus, Jiren etc?

In my mind, Blue Vegetto doesn't seem as impressive as his original version. For starters, he's now using the same form as his fusees instead of fighting two forms below, and his performance against Merged Zamasu isn't as impressive (Goku also puts up a better fight against Merged Zamasu than he would against Boohan).

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So, I don't really keep up with Super strength discussions anymore due to a large amount of vagueness and inconsistencies, plus some large schisms in the fandom over how to interpret certain things.

However, I'm kind of wondering how people powerscale Vegetto in Super, because it seems like Blue Vegetto would be a huge issue in power-scaling.

Like, looking at him back in the Boo arc, Super Vegetto effortlessly thrashed Boohan. This guy is Evil Boo + Ultimate Gohan, where Evil Boo was way too strong for SS3 Goku to fight and Ultimate Gohan was significantly stronger than that. So, Boohan's more than double a guy SS3 Goku can't beat, and Super Vegetto trashes him. That guy can potentially have Super Saiyan 2 and 3 on top of that.

Flash forward to BOG, where Goku said that fusion wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus. There have been a lot of arguments on how accurate this was, and whether it took into account Super Saiyan 2 & 3. Assuming it wasn't a total lie, it makes SSG a tremendous boost for Goku at that point, with SSB being a further increase for him.

So, with that in mind, how do you power scale Boo arc Vegetto and Blue Vegetto? Are you able to keep the same boost for both separate instances of fusion and fit it with the other relevant quotes? Where does Blue Vegetto stack up compared to Beerus, Jiren etc?

In my mind, Blue Vegetto doesn't seem as impressive as his original version. For starters, he's now using the same form as his fusees instead of fighting two forms below, and his performance against Merged Zamasu isn't as impressive (Goku also puts up a better fight against Merged Zamasu than he would against Boohan).

Vegito Blue still seemed to absolutely thrash Merged Zamasu to me, and that's AFTER he had become even more corrupted and thus much stronger. Even then, it was his -semi-immortality that kept him from being destroyed outright. It's only when Merged Zamasu increases in bulk and power immeasurably that he looks to be on even terms with Vegito Blue's power, maybe slightly higher but at the cost of speed and agility.

I'd say both instances of this fusion still giving the same boost is fine to me; we see that, at their current level, the base form of a perfect Saiyan Potara Fusion is immensely strong, as seen with Kefla who could match SSG Goku.

[Aizamasu]

So, I don't really keep up with Super strength discussions anymore due to a large amount of vagueness and inconsistencies, plus some large schisms in the fandom over how to interpret certain things.

However, I'm kind of wondering how people powerscale Vegetto in Super, because it seems like Blue Vegetto would be a huge issue in power-scaling.

Like, looking at him back in the Boo arc, Super Vegetto effortlessly thrashed Boohan. This guy is Evil Boo + Ultimate Gohan, where Evil Boo was way too strong for SS3 Goku to fight and Ultimate Gohan was significantly stronger than that. So, Boohan's more than double a guy SS3 Goku can't beat, and Super Vegetto trashes him. That guy can potentially have Super Saiyan 2 and 3 on top of that.

Flash forward to BOG, where Goku said that fusion wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus. There have been a lot of arguments on how accurate this was, and whether it took into account Super Saiyan 2 & 3. Assuming it wasn't a total lie, it makes SSG a tremendous boost for Goku at that point, with SSB being a further increase for him.

So, with that in mind, how do you power scale Boo arc Vegetto and Blue Vegetto? Are you able to keep the same boost for both separate instances of fusion and fit it with the other relevant quotes? Where does Blue Vegetto stack up compared to Beerus, Jiren etc?

In my mind, Blue Vegetto doesn't seem as impressive as his original version. For starters, he's now using the same form as his fusees instead of fighting two forms below, and his performance against Merged Zamasu isn't as impressive (Goku also puts up a better fight against Merged Zamasu than he would against Boohan).

Vegetto absolutely destroyed Merged Zamasu in the manga. I don't think Zamasu landed a single hit. And Shin said that Vegetto's power might have already surpassed Beerus'. So I think he should be at least as strong as Jiren and probably as strong as Beerus and potentially even stronger than them (if Shin's words can be trusted).

[Hugo Boss]

how do you power scale Boo arc Vegetto and Blue Vegetto? Are you able to keep the same boost for both separate instances of fusion and fit it with the other relevant quotes? Where does Blue Vegetto stack up compared to Beerus, Jiren etc?

In my mind, Blue Vegetto doesn't seem as impressive as his original version. For starters, he's now using the same form as his fusees instead of fighting two forms below, and his performance against Merged Zamasu isn't as impressive (Goku also puts up a better fight against Merged Zamasu than he would against Boohan).

I guess stacking the god forms with Potara doesn’t give that much of a increase when we compare them to the Super Saiyan lower forms. So, in my mind, that would make Vegetto closer to Blue Vegetto than Vegetto is to Goku, for example.

[SSJgogeto]

Okay so how strong is manga Cabba compared to anime Cabba?

The answer will depend on how the anime is interpreted.

[PFM18]

The reason I'm speculating at all is because of the difference in power scaling between the manga and anime. Toyotaro is just one person adapting the manga so it's easier for one person to keep track of what they wrote before than Toei's various writers to keep track of what every other writer is adding to the episode they worked on especially if we're told the anime production was rushed.

I don't find this speculation to be particularly productive. Sure, we could speculate that Toyotaro has an easier time keeping track of things becasue he is onl one writer, but this doesn't really even have much to do with "keeping track" as it does the decisions made early in the series that lays the foundation for the rest of the series. In the anime, they did something similar to the movie, and the manga, they decided to forgo the scene where Goku retains the power of SSG in his SSJ form. It doesn't really have much to do with having several writers if it simlpy boils down to a decision made early in the series, and reinforced throughout the series.

I gave that example as someone writing in that line about him using 10% without considering the implication. We're now left to assume he was lying about that specific percentage because it doesn't fit with what was revealed later on. I just think they had more collaboration that they wouldn't be including lines that contradict anything which force us to assume the character the lying.

Well it doesn't fit with what was revealed later on, but it also corroborates with what was established as far as Beerus lying about his power. If he did it once, it is only reasonable that he did it twice. We are "forced" to assume the character was lying in the sense that we have to assume something based on an established tendency of that character. I don't see much wrong with it, either way it doesn't have much to do with where Cabba stands other than trying to arbitrarily undermine the Toei staff.

I just think it requires extra assumptions to make it fit with the other implications from the anime than simply assuming SSJ1 Goku > Piccolo > base Goku. If base Goku and Frost are both as strong/stronger than SSJ1 Vegetto then that has to be at least a hundred times stronger than Piccolo. We have to assume Frost lost over 99% of his power so that Piccolo could last more than a few seconds against him.

It would take extra assumptions than to assume SSJ Goku>Piccolo>Base Goku, but the alternative is to believe Piccolo could dominate the entire Buu arc. We know that what was established before in the previous arcs in BoG and RoF, is reinforced immediately following the Universe 6 arc because Copy Vegeta who is exactly the same as Base Vegeta, dominates SSJ3 Gotenks and Base Goku matches him. Additionally, Base Goku fights and entertains Beerus where as he got flicked and knocked out as a SSj3 in BoG. So at the very bare minimum, Base Goku during this time is leaps and bounds stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and Goku. So to assume Base Goku isn't that strong because of Piccolo's performance is not an option.

Like I touched on previously, in terms of being weakened in Dragon Ball Super, it can make a world of difference. After Golden Freeza was weakened and defeated by Goku, Base Vegeta was able to deflect a ki blast from him. Additionally, Limits Broken Jiren was massively stronger than SSBKKx20 Goku, then he gets weakened and defeated by UI Goku and he can't even overpower the likes of SSJ Goku and Final Form Freeza. So he went from being >>>>SSBKKx20 Goku to being ~normal SSJ Goku, and that is an enormous difference. It is fairly reasonable to assume something similar happened with Frost.

I don't think it's consistent because that would imply that the manga was doing something wrong by not making Cabba that powerful

Two things here. First, when I said it was being consistent I meant it was consistent with the power creep existing in the original source material. Second, each of the manga and anime are their own continuities and if one is significantly different than the other, it does not imply that one did something wrong.

My point is that Goku and Vegeta's base form only reached that power after all that special training. The only reason they're above the U6 Saiyans is because all that training gave them an additional God form.

Well, yeah.

It undermines all the effort Goku and Vegeta had to go through because Cabba was that strong without training with an Angel. For all we know, Cabba never trained in higher gravity or a place like the Hyperbolic Time Chamber either. If Cabba trained with Vados between the U6 saga and ToP and obtained SSJB, he would likely be far stronger than Vegeta given he was as strong as Vegeta's post-God training base form before that. It didn't seem like Cabba improved much after the U6 saga so I don't really understand how he could become so powerful on his own and then his growth then slows down after obtaining a new form and getting all this new motivation from Vegeta.

For all we know? We know nothing of Cabba's training so it is left open to interpretation. All we know is that he's a Saiyan and one of the strongest warriors in his Universe, a Universe that is regarded by Zeno/Daishinkan as being stronger than Universe 7.

Does Raditz being stronger than Goku undermine Goku's training with Kami, Korin nad Roshi? Does Freeza being stronger than Goku undermine Goku's gravity training and his training with King Kai? etc etc.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

With regards to Piccolo's performance against Frost, I see a lot of people apparently misinterpreting things a bit.

There are actually quite a few subtle details to analyze.

For example, Piccolo NEVER goes on the offensive to try and land any attacks in the anime, unlike the manga; he's always reacting on the defensive, such as moving backwards while blocking with his hand, a known real-life martial arts technique for minimizing the damage inflicted from hits by opponents.

He also only ever charges up a Makankosappo and doesn't use any other techniques, owing to the power difference between him and Frost. Piccolo's nowhere close to Frost, and the fight showcases him turning the fight around despite the difference through skillful martial arts maneuvering and strategy.

[Marlowe89]

Okay so how strong is manga Cabba compared to anime Cabba?

Excluding Super Saiyan 2, which is exclusive to the anime, they're the same level.

The assumption that they're not the same level is an authorially flawed position because it doesn't directly compare manga Cabba to anime Cabba; instead, it extrapolates everything from a scene in the BoG arc that would now be defunct according to dialogue from the Zen Exhibition of the US arc. There's no a priori reason to assume the writers intended these power scales to be dramatically different all the way through Super's run when, in fact, they're doing everything to tell you that they're structurally the same. The manga is a companion piece to the anime with minor differences in storytelling, not a work that operates on entirely different foundations. To assume the converse is totally counterintuitive to how comicalizations work.

You can find examples of these similarities everywhere. You don't even need to look beyond characters like Tupper to see it in action, because the same thing happens to Goku in both versions of the story during their brief skirmish. In the anime, he stays in base and can't break free from Tupper's hold; in the manga, he turns Super Saiyan and casually breaks free. The writers are implicitly telling you how an identical scenario would unfold depending on Goku's choices, and "scaling up" Tupper's strength just to make it fit with earlier notions from the anime is needlessly arbitrary and recklessly ignores how Android 18 easily dealt with him a few seconds afterwards.

That's not to mention both Toshio and Toyotaro striving to make their scaling consistent with Toriyama's. The backbone is fundamentally the same.

[ZombieVito]

With regards to Piccolo's performance against Frost, I see a lot of people apparently misinterpreting things a bit.

There are actually quite a few subtle details to analyze.

For example, Piccolo NEVER goes on the offensive to try and land any attacks in the anime, unlike the manga; he's always reacting on the defensive, such as moving backwards while blocking with his hand, a known real-life martial arts technique for minimizing the damage inflicted from hits by opponents.

He also only ever charges up a Makankosappo and doesn't use any other techniques, owing to the power difference between him and Frost. Piccolo's nowhere close to Frost, and the fight showcases him turning the fight around despite the difference through skillful martial arts maneuvering and strategy.

It is? I had no idea.

Thanks for the info.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

With regards to Piccolo's performance against Frost, I see a lot of people apparently misinterpreting things a bit.

There are actually quite a few subtle details to analyze.

For example, Piccolo NEVER goes on the offensive to try and land any attacks in the anime, unlike the manga; he's always reacting on the defensive, such as moving backwards while blocking with his hand, a known real-life martial arts technique for minimizing the damage inflicted from hits by opponents.

He also only ever charges up a Makankosappo and doesn't use any other techniques, owing to the power difference between him and Frost. Piccolo's nowhere close to Frost, and the fight showcases him turning the fight around despite the difference through skillful martial arts maneuvering and strategy.

It is? I had no idea.

Thanks for the info.

Freeza also did this against Cabba in the Tournament of Power, though it's obvious he was more than a match for Cabba then.

You can even tell from analysis why this is a known technique. By moving backwards with your blocking stance, you force your opponent to chase you down to try and throw a punch at you. While they're stuck chasing you down, they can't put as much effort and force into their blows, meaning that any hits they do land on your blocking hand will be greatly reduced in potency. The whole fight between Piccolo and Frost showcases some expertly crafted and very subtle martial arts know-how on the part of Toei's animators.

Everything that Piccolo did was very intelligent martial arts strategy to make up for the difference in power between him and Frost.

[ZombieVito]

Freeza also did this against Cabba in the Tournament of Power, though it's obvious he was more than a match for Cabba then.

You can even tell from analysis why this is a known technique. By moving backwards with your blocking stance, you force your opponent to chase you down to try and throw a punch at you. While they're stuck chasing you down, they can't put as much effort and force into their blows, meaning that any hits they do land on your blocking hand will be greatly reduced in potency. The whole fight between Piccolo and Frost showcases some expertly crafted and very subtle martial arts know-how on the part of Toei's animators.

Everything that Piccolo did was very intelligent martial arts strategy to make up for the difference in power between him and Frost.

And just like that one of the so called errors from Toei is solved without an issue.

Thanks.

[Miracles]

So, I don't really keep up with Super strength discussions anymore due to a large amount of vagueness and inconsistencies, plus some large schisms in the fandom over how to interpret certain things.

However, I'm kind of wondering how people powerscale Vegetto in Super, because it seems like Blue Vegetto would be a huge issue in power-scaling.

Like, looking at him back in the Boo arc, Super Vegetto effortlessly thrashed Boohan. This guy is Evil Boo + Ultimate Gohan, where Evil Boo was way too strong for SS3 Goku to fight and Ultimate Gohan was significantly stronger than that. So, Boohan's more than double a guy SS3 Goku can't beat, and Super Vegetto trashes him. That guy can potentially have Super Saiyan 2 and 3 on top of that.

Flash forward to BOG, where Goku said that fusion wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus. There have been a lot of arguments on how accurate this was, and whether it took into account Super Saiyan 2 & 3. Assuming it wasn't a total lie, it makes SSG a tremendous boost for Goku at that point, with SSB being a further increase for him.

So, with that in mind, how do you power scale Boo arc Vegetto and Blue Vegetto? Are you able to keep the same boost for both separate instances of fusion and fit it with the other relevant quotes? Where does Blue Vegetto stack up compared to Beerus, Jiren etc?

In my mind, Blue Vegetto doesn't seem as impressive as his original version. For starters, he's now using the same form as his fusees instead of fighting two forms below, and his performance against Merged Zamasu isn't as impressive (Goku also puts up a better fight against Merged Zamasu than he would against Boohan).

In a show that thrives on vagueness, you got to be thankful and take ANY direct statement they give us.
Yes, Vegetto was no match for Beerus. This was even displayed in Beerus CASUALLY dismissing SSJ3 Goku and a stronger SSJ2 Vegeta.
Them combined wouldn't have busted a grape. So naturally Buu saga Vegetto would be weaker than SSJG and Beerus.

As far as Blue Vegetto, in the anime he is equal to [maybe even slightly] weaker fused Zamas. But characetrs like Kefla, Jiren UI omen Goku would defeat him. In the manga Vegetto straight up dominated Zamas and it was questioned while powering up his final Kamehameha that he might be stronger than Beerus. It's possible he is behind Beerus in the manga or above.

[Skar]

I don't find this speculation to be particularly productive. Sure, we could speculate that Toyotaro has an easier time keeping track of things becasue he is onl one writer, but this doesn't really even have much to do with "keeping track" as it does the decisions made early in the series that lays the foundation for the rest of the series. In the anime, they did something similar to the movie, and the manga, they decided to forgo the scene where Goku retains the power of SSG in his SSJ form. It doesn't really have much to do with having several writers if it simlpy boils down to a decision made early in the series, and reinforced throughout the series.

I find it easier to assume the power scaling was meant to be similar in both and the anime staff unintentionally screwed it up than come up with my own assumptions in-universe to piece it together for the anime. If the animation quality gets excused earlier on because they were rushed, I don't think it's farfetched to assume the writing and consistency suffered from that. It's shonen so the power scaling should be simple and straightforward like it is in the manga without us needing to come up with additional assumptions to understand it.

ell it doesn't fit with what was revealed later on, but it also corroborates with what was established as far as Beerus lying about his power. If he did it once, it is only reasonable that he did it twice. We are "forced" to assume the character was lying in the sense that we have to assume something based on an established tendency of that character. I don't see much wrong with it, either way it doesn't have much to do with where Cabba stands other than trying to arbitrarily undermine the Toei staff.

I don't recall Beerus lying multiple times about how much power he was using in BoG. 10% is a pretty specific percentage to just randomly throw out and it end up being a lie. Did they realize the 10% line was wrong so they had him lie again to establish that he randomly lies about how much power he's using so fans would doubt the first line? I'm asking because I'm not sure why they would go out of their way to establish that as a tendency for Beerus only in the anime.

It would take extra assumptions than to assume SSJ Goku>Piccolo>Base Goku, but the alternative is to believe Piccolo could dominate the entire Buu arc. We know that what was established before in the previous arcs in BoG and RoF, is reinforced immediately following the Universe 6 arc because Copy Vegeta who is exactly the same as Base Vegeta, dominates SSJ3 Gotenks and Base Goku matches him. Additionally, Base Goku fights and entertains Beerus where as he got flicked and knocked out as a SSj3 in BoG. So at the very bare minimum, Base Goku during this time is leaps and bounds stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and Goku. So to assume Base Goku isn't that strong because of Piccolo's performance is not an option.

Like I touched on previously, in terms of being weakened in Dragon Ball Super, it can make a world of difference. After Golden Freeza was weakened and defeated by Goku, Base Vegeta was able to deflect a ki blast from him. Additionally, Limits Broken Jiren was massively stronger than SSBKKx20 Goku, then he gets weakened and defeated by UI Goku and he can't even overpower the likes of SSJ Goku and Final Form Freeza. So he went from being >>>>SSBKKx20 Goku to being ~normal SSJ Goku, and that is an enormous difference. It is fairly reasonable to assume something similar happened with Frost.

My issue is that the scenes that appear in both the anime and manga play out almost the same way aside from Kaioken being used in the anime. The only things that conflicts with these shared scenes and prevent us from taking the power scaling at face value are anime-only scenes. During the Future Trunks saga, the sparing match between Goku and Trunks played out very similarly. The only difference we initially see is that SSJ2 Trunks was about as strong as SSJ3 Goku in the manga while he was about equal to SSJ2 Goku in the anime. To make it work with other anime-only scenes you have to assume base Future Trunks is stronger than every character in the Buu saga which is pretty insane. He spent two years in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber along with a few years of additional training in his universe and was still weaker than Dabura without SSJ2. Are we supposed to assume after all those years of training his SSJ1 was still weaker than Dabura but then the few years between facing Dabura and Goku Black his base power jumped all the way to SSJ1 Vegetto tier? Goku spent seven years training in Other World, unlocked two transformations, and was still weaker than Freeza in base in BoG.

For all we know? We know nothing of Cabba's training so it is left open to interpretation. All we know is that he's a Saiyan and one of the strongest warriors in his Universe, a Universe that is regarded by Zeno/Daishinkan as being stronger than Universe 7.

Does Raditz being stronger than Goku undermine Goku's training with Kami, Korin nad Roshi? Does Freeza being stronger than Goku undermine Goku's gravity training and his training with King Kai? etc etc.

Like I said, giving some of the lesser power differences in the manga doesn't justify the DBS anime taking it to whatever extreme they want. It's not for me to fill in the blanks if the story isn't trying to imply he underwent any special training. All we know is that he was a Saiyan soldier who protected his universe but apparently was never in a life threatening situation that forced him to turn SSJ. In the manga, he was implied to be a strong base Saiyan on par with some of the stronger U7 base Saiyans from the Buu saga and just needed the extra push to turn SSJ1. In the anime, he never was forced to turn SSJ but still trained his way up to surpassing everyone in the Buu saga. One of these makes more sense which is why I would rather assume that was the intent for both versions.

Excluding Super Saiyan 2, which is exclusive to the anime, they're the same level.

The assumption that they're not the same level is an authorially flawed position because it doesn't directly compare manga Cabba to anime Cabba; instead, it extrapolates everything from a scene in the BoG arc that would now be defunct according to dialogue from the Zen Exhibition of the US arc. There's no a priori reason to assume the writers intended these power scales to be dramatically different all the way through Super's run when, in fact, they're doing everything to tell you that they're structurally the same. The manga is a companion piece to the anime with minor differences in storytelling, not a work that operates on entirely different foundations. To assume the converse is totally counterintuitive to how comicalizations work.

You can find examples of these similarities everywhere. You don't even need to look beyond characters like Tupper to see it in action, because the same thing happens to Goku in both versions of the story during their brief skirmish. In the anime, he stays in base and can't break free from Tupper's hold; in the manga, he turns Super Saiyan and casually breaks free. The writers are implicitly telling you how an identical scenario would unfold depending on Goku's choices, and "scaling up" Tupper's strength just to make it fit with earlier notions from the anime is needlessly arbitrary and recklessly ignores how Android 18 easily dealt with him a few seconds afterwards.

That's not to mention both Toshio and Toyotaro striving to make their scaling consistent with Toriyama's. The backbone is fundamentally the same.

I see, that part about Toppo makes sense. It just seems to be the simplest approach for both versions to have similar power scaling since they're following the same outline. What was the dialogue from the exhibition match and the scene with #18 you're referring to?

[Bullza]

It is? I had no idea.

It's the same for boxers to. Hitting someone who is moving backwards or trying to hit someone while moving backwards always has a much weaker impact then the other way around.