"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[ssj3kakarot]

I might not have read the start of this Roshi/Goku experiences part in this thread, so bare with me. But what was the original point about then?

Some people are claiming that Roshi has no right to give Goku advice because Goku surpassed him.

Others are claiming that Roshi has knowledge and experience that is very valuable. Knowledge and experiences Goku doesn't have.

No one's made that claim here, as far as I'm aware in this thread. The argument, for me at least, is that Roshi shouldn't be considered more experienced than Goku just because of his age and title. Dude has been a hermit for God knows how long, his verifiable fighting experience is mostly one on one tournaments, and the toughest opponent he's faced pre-Super is King Piccolo; an opponent who's not only relatively close to him in power by comparison to Jiren, but also a foe lacked any real esoteric martial art ability. That same opponent proved how much Roshi's experience didn't matter. So now we have an opponent who is probably beyond any known numerical calculations in stats over King Piccolo, and Roshi can dodge THIS guy, because of "experience"? Again, this is the same hermit who has been alone on an island for decades, if not centuries, jerking off to softcore porn.lol My problem is that you and others are basing and assuming his "experience" off of his age and title, and not anything the story aside from DBS ch 39 has shown us.

I generally agree with this ^^.

If Roshi has had this experience under his belt, then why not demonstrate it numerous times previous. Against Raditz, or hell, even Beerus when he shows up. If people believe that Jiren is superior to Beerus, then that means Roshi is closer to Beerus than he is to Jiren. So Roshi should have been able to do similar feats vs Beerus. That's why it seems like poor writing when a character who has been a side character exudes abilities he has never been able to demonstrate. And the explanation we get is his "wisdom." Again I say, where was this wisdom in previous arcs? Oh that's right.

I agree that Roshi has some experience that others don't, and even has some knowledge that he can still impart to others, but this particular bit about teaching Goku how to move properly? This is Goku we are referring to. He is leagues above Roshi when it comes to this. The mafuba? Makes perfect sense that Goku would need advice from Roshi. If you want to make Roshi, or any of the sideline characters important roles, I'm all for it. Just don't do it, in my opinion, by undermining pre-established lore/hierarchy.

[prince212]

The argument, for me at least, is that Roshi shouldn't be considered more experienced than Goku just because of his age and title. Dude has been a hermit for God knows how long

I can agree or doubt about experience while fighting, if we talk about mind control there’s no doubt roshi can give some tips to goku , and all was about that , he didn’t tell him how to punch or fight, it was about self control and look inside himself .
Hermit life gives you time to know yourself

[ssj3kakarot]

The argument, for me at least, is that Roshi shouldn't be considered more experienced than Goku just because of his age and title. Dude has been a hermit for God knows how long

I can agree or doubt about experience while fighting, if we talk about mind control there’s no doubt roshi can give some tips to goku , and all was about that , he didn’t tell him how to punch or fight, it was about self control and look inside himself .
Hermit life gives you time to know yourself

However we are only ever witness to him knowing which magazines he likes best.

[Lord Beerus]

As a fan, however, like what you want. But just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist lol.

I didn't say it didn't exist. I said the original version also exists, and it's arguably much more important than whatever retcons Toriyama decides to write because of the sole, immutable fact that it's the original. Treating the Kanzenban ending as if it's erasing the original from existence is what you're doing. The fact remains, to get back on-track, that the original version is more important and more widespread, and it doesn't depict Vegeta saying he'll surpass Goku in the final panel of the series.

I think the point that TKA is trying to make is that one ending doesn't hold any more bearing over another. They should be both taken into equal consideration of the context of how Dragon Ball closes its final chapter.

How Toriyama originally intended to end Dragon Ball is very important to consider, but it's just as important to make note of any changes Toriyama wishes to make to his original story. And for whatever reason, Toriyama provided a revised ending that had Vegeta reaffirm his desire to defeat Goku (and by proxy catch up to him and/or surpass him in strength). It may have seemed a but arbitrary for Toryama to do this nearly a decade after he completed the story, but for whatever reason, Toriyama felt compelled to give that extra tidbit in what was basically the epilogue for Dragon Ball's grand narrative.

You can't hold it against someone if they place that ending in the same echelon of contextual meaning as the original ending before it where Vegeta doesn't have that dialogue. It's an ending that has just as much value and merit in it's storytelling because it's ultimately coming from the original author pen/pencil. This isn't something like Dragon Ball Minus, Battle Of Gods, Resurrection F or Dragon Ball Super where you have the liberty to ignore those stories given their very superficial ties to the original story. This is an original publication of the manga having a re-written ending and being resold as part of a legitimate complete edition of Toriyama's manga (twice).

[Doctor.]

As a fan, however, like what you want. But just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist lol.

I didn't say it didn't exist. I said the original version also exists, and it's arguably much more important than whatever retcons Toriyama decides to write because of the sole, immutable fact that it's the original. Treating the Kanzenban ending as if it's erasing the original from existence is what you're doing. The fact remains, to get back on-track, that the original version is more important and more widespread, and it doesn't depict Vegeta saying he'll surpass Goku in the final panel of the series.

I think the point that TKA is trying to make is that one ending doesn't hold any more bearing over another. They should be both taken into equal consideration of the context of how Dragon Ball closes its final chapter.

How Toriyama originally intended to end Dragon Ball is very important to consider, but it's just as important to make note of any changes Toriyama wishes to make to his original story. And for whatever reason, Toriyama provided a revised ending that had Vegeta reaffirm his desire to defeat Goku (and by proxy catch up to him and/or surpass him in strength). It may have seemed a but arbitrary for Toryama to do this nearly a decade after he completed the story, but for whatever reason, Toriyama felt compelled to give that extra tidbit in what was basically the epilogue for Dragon Ball's grand narrative.

You can't hold it against someone if they place that ending in the same echelon of contextual meaning as the original ending before it where Vegeta doesn't have that dialogue. It's an ending that has just as much value and merit in it's storytelling because it's ultimately coming from the original author pen/pencil. This isn't something like Dragon Ball Minus, Battle Of Gods, Resurrection F or Dragon Ball Super where you have the liberty to ignore those stories given their very superficial ties to the original story. This is an original publication of the manga having a re-written ending and being resold as part of a legitimate complete edition of Toriyama's manga (twice).

But whether it exists or not isn't important. Obviously it exists. Just like the original still exists right there on my shelf. My point is that they don't have the same value. The original is far more important, and this isn't really subjective regardless of your opinion on Vegeta's characterization in the Kanzenban release. It's the original, it wasn't written almost a decade after the series had ended, and it's the ending in the Tankobon edition and the one that the anime adapted meaning it's the one most people are familiar with. There are far more points to be made in favor of the original ending being taken more seriously when it comes to this particular issue. It may be sold in conjunction with Toriyama's original work, but it's not Toriyama's original work, just like Greedo shooting first isn't Lucas' original work. People don't discuss the edited scene when they talk Star Wars, and we shouldn't discuss the edited ending when discussing Dragon Ball either, because it should have no bearing on what was originally portrayed. The Kanzenban ending has no bearing on Vegeta's characterization in the original series. It may be relevant regarding Vegeta's characterization in modern Dragon Ball, but that doesn't really tells us anything; it tells us his characterization is consistent between modern DB and the Kanzenban ending, not that it's consistent between modern DB and the original series.

Now, when it comes to the actual subjective part of the argument: this isn't a simple, meaningless edit like changing Gohan's age from the WSJ release to the Tankobon release; this is a piece of information on Vegeta's characterization that may conflict with his development in the same arc. And considering the fact that it's written by an extremely forgetful author who, by the same time, had admitted he had forgotten who Tao Pai Pai was, then there's enough reason to hold the original version over a Kanzenban release that neglects to portray the nuance of Vegeta's character and instead depicts him as a one-note personality.

[reecehoward]

Some people are claiming that Roshi has no right to give Goku advice because Goku surpassed him.

Others are claiming that Roshi has knowledge and experience that is very valuable. Knowledge and experiences Goku doesn't have.

No one's made that claim here, as far as I'm aware in this thread. The argument, for me at least, is that Roshi shouldn't be considered more experienced than Goku just because of his age and title. Dude has been a hermit for God knows how long, his verifiable fighting experience is mostly one on one tournaments, and the toughest opponent he's faced pre-Super is King Piccolo; an opponent who's not only relatively close to him in power by comparison to Jiren, but also a foe lacked any real esoteric martial art ability. That same opponent proved how much Roshi's experience didn't matter. So now we have an opponent who is probably beyond any known numerical calculations in stats over King Piccolo, and Roshi can dodge THIS guy, because of "experience"? Again, this is the same hermit who has been alone on an island for decades, if not centuries, jerking off to softcore porn.lol My problem is that you and others are basing and assuming his "experience" off of his age and title, and not anything the story aside from DBS ch 39 has shown us.

That and by this logic, Goku and Jiren should not have been able to outplay Hit, who is 1000 years old. That and as been pointed out several times, Roshi said back in Dragon Ball that Goku's sills have outstripped him.

Exactly. It would make sense if Roshi was always playing this role within the series and kept up with the heroes to a degree, but he hasn't. His experiences account for nothing in the context of fighting opponents many of magnitudes more capable than himself. Goku regularly faces these types of challenges AND grows through them, hence why he is more experienced in this. Roshi can give insight, but not to the point where he's borderline insulting Goku's AND the reader's intelligence.

Some people are claiming that Roshi has no right to give Goku advice because Goku surpassed him.

Others are claiming that Roshi has knowledge and experience that is very valuable. Knowledge and experiences Goku doesn't have.

No one's made that claim here, as far as I'm aware in this thread. The argument, for me at least, is that Roshi shouldn't be considered more experienced than Goku just because of his age and title. Dude has been a hermit for God knows how long, his verifiable fighting experience is mostly one on one tournaments, and the toughest opponent he's faced pre-Super is King Piccolo; an opponent who's not only relatively close to him in power by comparison to Jiren, but also a foe lacked any real esoteric martial art ability. That same opponent proved how much Roshi's experience didn't matter. So now we have an opponent who is probably beyond any known numerical calculations in stats over King Piccolo, and Roshi can dodge THIS guy, because of "experience"? Again, this is the same hermit who has been alone on an island for decades, if not centuries, jerking off to softcore porn.lol My problem is that you and others are basing and assuming his "experience" off of his age and title, and not anything the story aside from DBS ch 39 has shown us.

I generally agree with this ^^.

If Roshi has had this experience under his belt, then why not demonstrate it numerous times previous. Against Raditz, or hell, even Beerus when he shows up. If people believe that Jiren is superior to Beerus, then that means Roshi is closer to Beerus than he is to Jiren. So Roshi should have been able to do similar feats vs Beerus. That's why it seems like poor writing when a character who has been a side character exudes abilities he has never been able to demonstrate. And the explanation we get is his "wisdom." Again I say, where was this wisdom in previous arcs? Oh that's right.

I agree that Roshi has some experience that others don't, and even has some knowledge that he can still impart to others, but this particular bit about teaching Goku how to move properly? This is Goku we are referring to. He is leagues above Roshi when it comes to this. The mafuba? Makes perfect sense that Goku would need advice from Roshi. If you want to make Roshi, or any of the sideline characters important roles, I'm all for it. Just don't do it, in my opinion, by undermining pre-established lore/hierarchy.

And that's the main issue; everything about that whole sequence, ESPECIALLY the dialogue, undermines the entirety of Dragonball. I'm all for implementing new ideas and concepts into the series, but not at the cost of destroying the basis of the franchise.

[Miracles]

The Super manga didn't say/show anything about Roshi being more skilled or more powerful than Goku. The whole sequence had to do with a master REMINDING his student about the principles.

[Lord Beerus]

But whether it exists or not isn't important. Obviously it exists. Just like the original still exists right there on my shelf. My point is that they don't have the same value. The original is far more important, and this isn't really subjective regardless of your opinion on Vegeta's characterization in the Kanzenban release. It's the original, it wasn't written almost a decade after the series had ended, and it's the ending in the Tankobon edition and the one that the anime adapted meaning it's the one most people are familiar with. There are far more points to be made in favor of the original ending being taken more seriously when it comes to this particular issue. It may be sold in conjunction with Toriyama's original work, but it's not Toriyama's original work, just like Greedo shooting first isn't Lucas' original work. People don't discuss the edited scene when they talk Star Wars, and we shouldn't discuss the edited ending when discussing Dragon Ball either, because it should have no bearing on what was originally portrayed. The Kanzenban ending has no bearing on Vegeta's characterization in the original series. It may be relevant regarding Vegeta's characterization in modern Dragon Ball, but that doesn't really tells us anything; it tells us his characterization is consistent between modern DB and the Kanzenban ending, not that it's consistent between modern DB and the original series.

Now, when it comes to the actual subjective part of the argument: this isn't a simple, meaningless edit like changing Gohan's age from the WSJ release to the Tankobon release; this is a piece of information on Vegeta's characterization that may conflict with his development in the same arc. And considering the fact that it's written by an extremely forgetful author who, by the same time, had admitted he had forgotten who Tao Pai Pai was, then there's enough reason to hold the original version over a Kanzenban release that neglects to portray the nuance of Vegeta's character and instead depicts him as a one-note personality.

You make some very valid points. But I still wouldn't brush aside the Kanzenban ending under the pretense of what basically boils down to, "it didn't happen first". Toriyama's vision of Dragon Ball, and it's characters, can subtly change over time. There may be certain aspects of the manga that he would have wanted to be handled differently. And for whatever reason, when the manga was being re-released in 2002 in Japan, he used that opportunity to provide an extended and re-written ending. I'm not saying that this is by default the new or official ending of the manga. But the ending exists as a slight re-imaging of how Toriyama wanted to end Dragon Ball. And he chose to end it with the character moment of Vegeta wanting to defeat Goku.

Does that moment exhibit a conflict in character given the development Vegeta goes through in the leading up particular moment of him saying that? It's debatable. But we're certainly not a liberty to saying that the re-written ending has any less value than the original ending. Because as I've said before, opinions and motives can change. Toriyama may be very forgettable, something he has not only acknowledged but embraced, but his stance on how Dragon Ball's story should evolve, or even conclude, isn't, and really shouldn't, be attributed by that forgetful nature of his. Otherwise we would have seen many more subtle but significant changes in the manga beyond the revised ending when the manga was re-released back in 2002.

I'm sure from Toriyama's perceptive the revised ending is just an ending and not the ending, if you catch my drift. It doesn't hold any more or less merit and significance over how he originally ended the story. Toriyama chose for Dragon Ball to have that kind of ending becuase he wanted for the manga to have that kind of ending. We, as fans of Dragon Ball, don't really have the right to say that how the author original concluded his work is definitive and above everything else when the author can easily change any context regarding certain characterizations if personal preferences for their storytelling have shifted. It can happen at any time. You may not agree with that, and you have every right to not agree with it, but this Toriyama's story to mold and change as he pleases. It may seem reductive in the grand scheme, but Dragon Ball is Toriyama's toy box to play with, not ours.

[Doctor.]

Toriyama's vision of Dragon Ball, and it's characters, can subtly change over time.

It can. But that only means it will affect everything he writes from that point onward. What he has already written is still there. He may disagree with the way he portrayed his characters then, but it doesn't matter because he can't take that back. He could even rerelease the manga again with edits here and there to adjust to how he feels about the characters now for all I care, it still wouldn't change a thing about the way the original series is and should be viewed. Again, like Lucas. His edits have been ignored whenever his series is discussed.

Toriyama may have changed the way he feels about Vegeta. Or he may have actually intended to have that panel in the original ending but didn't for some reason. Either way, it doesn't matter. Nothing he thinks matters, objectively. Because that's not the way things turned out; the panel is missing, and Vegeta at the end of the original series is, thus, portrayed differently than the Vegeta at the end of the Kanzenban release. You could argue that the panel wouldn't be out-of-character for the Vegeta of the original ending, actually, but I don't really care about that argument since it's a subjective argument, and I'm trying to be objective here. And what's objective is that Toriyama's correction can only achieve one thing: consistency between the portrayal of Vegeta of modern DB and the Vegeta of the Kanzenban ending; but it can never be used as an example of consistency between the portrayal of Vegeta in modern DB and the portrayal of Vegeta in the original series, like TKA and others are doing in this very thread, because the Kanzenban release is not the original series.

And I'm going through this argument simply to make the point that Toriyama's word is irrelevant if it's not directly stated on the pages of the original manga. I don't really care to discuss whether Vegeta has regressed or not, since I've done that already in this thread, because even if you took the Kanzenban release as "canon" and assumed it takes precedence over the original, then I'd still be allowed to disagree with the way Toriyama had portrayed the character there, for the sole reason that Toriyama's writing isn't infallible.

On a side-note, I like the Kanzenban ending. I think the rewritten narrator speech at the end is worse and Vegeta's panel is unnecessary, but I think it improves on the original with the redrawn Genkidama and the Kintoun scene.

but Dragon Ball is Toriyama's toy box to play with, not ours.

And taking this out of context for a moment, just to address the general sentiment behind this phrase: no, it's not solely Toriyama's toy box to play with anymore. It hasn't been for a long time. Shueisha and Toei have always had a say in Dragon Ball even if Toriyama is the main creative vision.

[ssj3kakarot]

The Super manga didn't say/show anything about Roshi being more skilled or more powerful than Goku. The whole sequence had to do with a master REMINDING his student about the principles.

You're looking at a different manga then, sir. Roshi clearly performs better than Goku does ( being more skilled) when it came to fighting Jiren. That's what all this fuss is about! Roshi did better than Goku did. He didn't simply remind Goku, he outclassed Goku in what Goku is literally, biologically bread to do, fight.

[Miracles]

The Super manga didn't say/show anything about Roshi being more skilled or more powerful than Goku. The whole sequence had to do with a master REMINDING his student about the principles.

You're looking at a different manga then, sir. Roshi clearly performs better than Goku does ( being more skilled) when it came to fighting Jiren. That's what all this fuss is about! Roshi did better than Goku did. He didn't simply remind Goku, he outclassed Goku in what Goku is literally, biologically bread to do, fight.

Roshi only used a bootleg version of UI while Goku actually tapped into legit UI after being reminded by his teacher of the principles. That's not more skilled that's just being more aware of ones teachings.

[ssj3kakarot]

The Super manga didn't say/show anything about Roshi being more skilled or more powerful than Goku. The whole sequence had to do with a master REMINDING his student about the principles.

You're looking at a different manga then, sir. Roshi clearly performs better than Goku does ( being more skilled) when it came to fighting Jiren. That's what all this fuss is about! Roshi did better than Goku did. He didn't simply remind Goku, he outclassed Goku in what Goku is literally, biologically bread to do, fight.

Roshi only used a bootleg version of UI while Goku actually tapped into legit UI after being reminded by his teacher of the principles. That's not more skilled that's just being more aware of ones teachings.

I feel the issue with many people is that it was, in fact, Roshi that was needed to be the "reminder" to Goku on how to move well. Bootleg version or not, it's trash writing. As I stated before, why hasn't Roshi ever demonstrated an ability that can do anything remotely close to what he did vs Jiren until now. It's like if all of a sudden Yamcha was able to tangle with Beerus, even for a moment.

And Roshi performed better than Goku. He demonstrated better skills than Goku, clearly showing that Roshi was better in that moment, bootleg or not, shortlived or not. It's just bad writing. I think Roshi can get a cool little bit of " honor the turtle master, but not the way it was done in the manga.

[Bergamo]

You're looking at a different manga then, sir. Roshi clearly performs better than Goku does ( being more skilled) when it came to fighting Jiren. That's what all this fuss is about! Roshi did better than Goku did. He didn't simply remind Goku, he outclassed Goku in what Goku is literally, biologically bread to do, fight.

Roshi only used a bootleg version of UI while Goku actually tapped into legit UI after being reminded by his teacher of the principles. That's not more skilled that's just being more aware of ones teachings.

I feel the issue with many people is that it was, in fact, Roshi that was needed to be the "reminder" to Goku on how to move well. Bootleg version or not, it's trash writing. As I stated before, why hasn't Roshi ever demonstrated an ability that can do anything remotely close to what he did vs Jiren until now. It's like if all of a sudden Yamcha was able to tangle with Beerus, even for a moment.

And Roshi performed better than Goku. He demonstrated better skills than Goku, clearly showing that Roshi was better in that moment, bootleg or not, shortlived or not. It's just bad writing. I think Roshi can get a cool little bit of " honor the turtle master, but not the way it was done in the manga.

Jiren was most likely suppressed, so this is nothing like Yamcha fighting Beerus, unless Beerus was also suppressed. The notion that a strong character suppressing themselves in order to fight a weak character is weird to me.

[batistabus]

He created this and they get to play in it. The groundwork he set should always be honored. If you aren't willing to, then go create your own franchise. Like it or not, if you're working on Dragonball, Toriyama's word, his beliefs and his musings are absolute and must be adhered to. This franchise is his vision and his creation.

I agree, and this is partially why I prefer the DBS manga. For me, Toriyama's input is absolute. His unique perspective and the lens through which he sees the world are what make Dragon Ball special in the first place. The sense of style, character, humor, and unexpected turns are near impossible for anyone else to replicate. There are stories out there with better fights. There are stories out there with more depth. There are stories out there with (believe it or not) crazier scale and escalation. Dragon Ball without Toriyama is just a mediocre action series for kids, which is largely what Toei produces when they take things into their own hands.

The most interesting part of this whole Super experience for me has been trying to distill Toriyama's vision through interviews and cross-examining both versions of the story. That doesn't mean I love everything Toriyama has ever thought up (Minus), nor do I hate everything Toei has touched (the first Bardock special), but if I was just looking for a competent action story, I'd search elsewhere. I can't blame you if you're not interested in this continuation of the adventures of Son Goku & co., but I can't understand how someone would be interested in a version without Toriyama.

[ssj3kakarot]

Roshi only used a bootleg version of UI while Goku actually tapped into legit UI after being reminded by his teacher of the principles. That's not more skilled that's just being more aware of ones teachings.

I feel the issue with many people is that it was, in fact, Roshi that was needed to be the "reminder" to Goku on how to move well. Bootleg version or not, it's trash writing. As I stated before, why hasn't Roshi ever demonstrated an ability that can do anything remotely close to what he did vs Jiren until now. It's like if all of a sudden Yamcha was able to tangle with Beerus, even for a moment.

And Roshi performed better than Goku. He demonstrated better skills than Goku, clearly showing that Roshi was better in that moment, bootleg or not, shortlived or not. It's just bad writing. I think Roshi can get a cool little bit of " honor the turtle master, but not the way it was done in the manga.

Jiren was most likely suppressed, so this is nothing like Yamcha fighting Beerus, unless Beerus was also suppressed. The notion that a strong character suppressing themselves in order to fight a weak character is weird to me.

A supressed Jiren who is tanking everything everyone is throwing at him. Just like with Beerus vs the Z fighters. Beerus was supressed and everyone compared to him, including Ragetta and SS3 Goku were trash compared to. Roshi, likewise, should have never been able to dodge or do well in any format against Jiren. Especially since the scene in mention is a straight up fight. It isn't like Roshi pulled some magic trick against Jiren, it was a brawl. A 1% supressed Jiren should still be hundreds of times stronger, faster, more reactive than Roshi ever could be.

[Bergamo]

I feel the issue with many people is that it was, in fact, Roshi that was needed to be the "reminder" to Goku on how to move well. Bootleg version or not, it's trash writing. As I stated before, why hasn't Roshi ever demonstrated an ability that can do anything remotely close to what he did vs Jiren until now. It's like if all of a sudden Yamcha was able to tangle with Beerus, even for a moment.

And Roshi performed better than Goku. He demonstrated better skills than Goku, clearly showing that Roshi was better in that moment, bootleg or not, shortlived or not. It's just bad writing. I think Roshi can get a cool little bit of " honor the turtle master, but not the way it was done in the manga.

Jiren was most likely suppressed, so this is nothing like Yamcha fighting Beerus, unless Beerus was also suppressed. The notion that a strong character suppressing themselves in order to fight a weak character is weird to me.

A supressed Jiren who is tanking everything everyone is throwing at him. Just like with Beerus vs the Z fighters. Beerus was supressed and everyone compared to him, including Ragetta and SS3 Goku were trash compared to. Roshi, likewise, should have never been able to dodge or do well in any format against Jiren. Especially since the scene in mention is a straight up fight. It isn't like Roshi pulled some magic trick against Jiren, it was a brawl. A 1% supressed Jiren should still be hundreds of times stronger, faster, more reactive than Roshi ever could be.

He is stronger, just not faster because of Roshi's false Ultra Instinct

You also previously stated that Roshi did better than Goku, but...
1. Jiren was probably more suppressed against Roshi
2. Even then, Goku visibly hurt Jiren and survived powerful direct hits, whereas Roshi didn't ever hit Jiren and was defeated by a wimpy karate chop.

[ssj3kakarot]

Jiren was most likely suppressed, so this is nothing like Yamcha fighting Beerus, unless Beerus was also suppressed. The notion that a strong character suppressing themselves in order to fight a weak character is weird to me.

A supressed Jiren who is tanking everything everyone is throwing at him. Just like with Beerus vs the Z fighters. Beerus was supressed and everyone compared to him, including Ragetta and SS3 Goku were trash compared to. Roshi, likewise, should have never been able to dodge or do well in any format against Jiren. Especially since the scene in mention is a straight up fight. It isn't like Roshi pulled some magic trick against Jiren, it was a brawl. A 1% supressed Jiren should still be hundreds of times stronger, faster, more reactive than Roshi ever could be.

He is stronger, just not faster because of Roshi's false Ultra Instinct

You also previously stated that Roshi did better than Goku, but...
1. Jiren was probably more suppressed against Roshi
2. Even then, Goku visibly hurt Jiren and survived powerful direct hits, whereas Roshi didn't ever hit Jiren and was defeated by a wimpy karate chop.

Again, how convenient that Roshi is just now showcasing this freaking amazing ability so late in the series. I understand it was so Goku would be able use UI himself. But it doesn't make sense, no matter how you write it. Roshi has never demonstrated this, or anything close, ever. They wrote it into the chapter simply to transition Goku into UI.

Poor writing is poor writing. It's pretty clear, I feel.

"Jiren was probably more supressed." That's not the picture that is neatly presented to us in chapter 39. Goku powers up, lands a hit, but then Jiren decides to shrug off Goku's highest power level. It's only after this, that Roshi out performs Goku. Even if Jiren had reduced his power level from what it was just seconds ago, it shouldn't matter against someone like Roshi.

I believe a fully serious Jiren would stomp Roshi, of course. But Jiren shouldn't have to get serious against Roshi in a 1v1 fist fight. Especailly since he's in a tournament and was just throwing hands with Goku seconds ago.

[Bergamo]

A supressed Jiren who is tanking everything everyone is throwing at him. Just like with Beerus vs the Z fighters. Beerus was supressed and everyone compared to him, including Ragetta and SS3 Goku were trash compared to. Roshi, likewise, should have never been able to dodge or do well in any format against Jiren. Especially since the scene in mention is a straight up fight. It isn't like Roshi pulled some magic trick against Jiren, it was a brawl. A 1% supressed Jiren should still be hundreds of times stronger, faster, more reactive than Roshi ever could be.

He is stronger, just not faster because of Roshi's false Ultra Instinct

You also previously stated that Roshi did better than Goku, but...
1. Jiren was probably more suppressed against Roshi
2. Even then, Goku visibly hurt Jiren and survived powerful direct hits, whereas Roshi didn't ever hit Jiren and was defeated by a wimpy karate chop.

Again, how convenient that Roshi is just now showcasing this freaking amazing ability so late in the series. I understand it was so Goku would be able use UI himself. But it doesn't make sense, no matter how you write it. Roshi has never demonstrated this, or anything close, ever. They wrote it into the chapter simply to transition Goku into UI.

Poor writing is poor writing. It's pretty clear, I feel.

"Jiren was probably more supressed." That's not the picture that is neatly presented to us in chapter 39. Goku powers up, lands a hit, but then Jiren decides to shrug off Goku's highest power level. It's only after this, that Roshi out performs Goku. Even if Jiren had reduced his power level from what it was just seconds ago, it shouldn't matter against someone like Roshi.

I believe a fully serious Jiren would stomp Roshi, of course. But Jiren shouldn't have to get serious against Roshi in a 1v1 fist fight. Especailly since he's in a tournament and was just throwing hands with Goku seconds ago.

Roshi has this ability for the same reason that Tien didn't use the Kikoho against the androids. It is bad writing, but not in a way that isn't standard for dragon ball. Roshi is obviously not supposed to be strong, and certainly not stronger than Goku. Also, the way you say, "seconds ago," is textbook manipulative wording. Jiren waited as Roshi had an entire conversation with Goku, so it's not like Roshi jumped him out of nowhere. It's also not a hassle for these characters to change their power level. The fact that Roshi wasn't sliced in half by Jiren's karate chop should be proof that Jiren was extremely suppressed.

[ssj3kakarot]

He is stronger, just not faster because of Roshi's false Ultra Instinct

You also previously stated that Roshi did better than Goku, but...
1. Jiren was probably more suppressed against Roshi
2. Even then, Goku visibly hurt Jiren and survived powerful direct hits, whereas Roshi didn't ever hit Jiren and was defeated by a wimpy karate chop.

Again, how convenient that Roshi is just now showcasing this freaking amazing ability so late in the series. I understand it was so Goku would be able use UI himself. But it doesn't make sense, no matter how you write it. Roshi has never demonstrated this, or anything close, ever. They wrote it into the chapter simply to transition Goku into UI.

Poor writing is poor writing. It's pretty clear, I feel.

"Jiren was probably more supressed." That's not the picture that is neatly presented to us in chapter 39. Goku powers up, lands a hit, but then Jiren decides to shrug off Goku's highest power level. It's only after this, that Roshi out performs Goku. Even if Jiren had reduced his power level from what it was just seconds ago, it shouldn't matter against someone like Roshi.

I believe a fully serious Jiren would stomp Roshi, of course. But Jiren shouldn't have to get serious against Roshi in a 1v1 fist fight. Especailly since he's in a tournament and was just throwing hands with Goku seconds ago.

Roshi has this ability for the same reason that Tien didn't use the Kikoho against the androids. It is bad writing, but not in a way that isn't standard for dragon ball. Roshi is obviously not supposed to be strong, and certainly not stronger than Goku. Also, the way you say, "seconds ago," is textbook manipulative wording. Jiren waited as Roshi had an entire conversation with Goku, so it's not like Roshi jumped him out of nowhere. It's also not a hassle for these characters to change their power level. The fact that Roshi wasn't sliced in half by Jiren's karate chop should be proof that Jiren was extremely suppressed.

First, if you read the manga, the part where Goku and Roshi start talking to when Roshi attacks Jiren would be less than a minute by any measure. So saying seconds, isn't manipulative in the slightest. Further the only fact is that any world where Roshi did what he was able to do against the most current "most powerful" is bad writing. Thats a fact. Jiren suppressing himself isn't factual, either. Highly assumable, but not factual.

[Miracles]

You're looking at a different manga then, sir. Roshi clearly performs better than Goku does ( being more skilled) when it came to fighting Jiren. That's what all this fuss is about! Roshi did better than Goku did. He didn't simply remind Goku, he outclassed Goku in what Goku is literally, biologically bread to do, fight.

Roshi only used a bootleg version of UI while Goku actually tapped into legit UI after being reminded by his teacher of the principles. That's not more skilled that's just being more aware of ones teachings.

I feel the issue with many people is that it was, in fact, Roshi that was needed to be the "reminder" to Goku on how to move well. Bootleg version or not, it's trash writing. As I stated before, why hasn't Roshi ever demonstrated an ability that can do anything remotely close to what he did vs Jiren until now. It's like if all of a sudden Yamcha was able to tangle with Beerus, even for a moment.

And Roshi performed better than Goku. He demonstrated better skills than Goku, clearly showing that Roshi was better in that moment, bootleg or not, shortlived or not. It's just bad writing. I think Roshi can get a cool little bit of " honor the turtle master, but not the way it was done in the manga.

Roshi didn't do better than Goku cause when both implemented their teachings Goku used UI and Roshi did not. Showing who is the superior, not too mention Jiren only recognized UI Goku as the one who fought the hardest against him. Roshi isn't included...Roshi not moving like this before does not mean he shouldn't have such ability. The fact that Roshi knew the movement principle from the past means he has it. Regardless if it was displayed or not cause the story says he and Goku know these same principles. As the teacher of Goku he has every right to remind him of the basics. It's not bad writing but continuity.