Gohan vs. Dabura

[Kaboom]

Comparing anyone's power based on the Cell Juniors is pointless. All the little buggers were toying with the heroes. None of them were about to go for the kill until Cell gave the order.

[Godo]

Comparing anyone's power based on the Cell Juniors is pointless. All the little buggers were toying with the heroes. None of them were about to go for the kill until Cell gave the order.

They had to be weaker than Cell, in the least, but stronger than the suppressed one, since Vegeta and Trunks held their ground against them, and Vegeta thought that he had a chance against Cell (last reading, the suppressed one) after his second training in the ROSAT.

(Which must mean that Piccolo had become much weaker since the Cell Games, since he managed to block a Cell Jr. in the least).

Didn't quite follow your logic there. Explain please.

In Cell Games saga Piccolo was a lot stronger than normal Super Saiyan.
In Buu saga Piccolo was afraid of Supreme Kai - someone whose powerlevel is lower than SSJ Gohan's, who was weaker than in Cell Games saga.

I disagree with Piccolo in Buu Saga being any weaker than in Cell Saga though.

Yeah, I disagree with that too, and I add that it's bullshit that Piccolo was weaker than Kaioshin. He was just shitting his pants because of meeting the highest deity, with Kami inside him and all.

[Savage68]

Yeah, I disagree with that too, and I add that it's bullshit that Piccolo was weaker than Kaioshin. He was just shitting his pants because of meeting the highest deity, with Kami inside him and all.

Piccolo says that Kaioshin is much stronger than him, and the Daiz says so, as well. That theory that Piccolo was scared because of Kaioshin's ranking is what I think is the bullshit.

I mean, unless you think Piccolo could've fared just as good as Kaioshin did against Buu.

Gohan is an amateur, when compared to the likes of Goku, Vegeta, or Piccolo.

Only problem with this is that Kibito had no reason to assume this, and given that Gohan was the strongest person he'd ever seen, the idea that he'd consider that Gohan is way less of a skilled fighter than other people(that he didn't know, either) doesn't add up.

Goten and Trunks are just outright amateurs and they're two of the most powerful beings in the universe. Likewise with Gotenks. So I fail to see the issue.

Gotenks didn't even exist. Goten and Trunks have never been in a real fight. So yeah, I fail to see the issue.

What Kaioshin was telling him is that Gohan's actually more than that, he's "skilled".

That still doesn't make any sense. Kibito has 0 reason to assume that Gohan was a total n00b. When's the last time a character's fighting skill superseded their raw power, especially in the Buu saga?

[Drayenko]

Well, actually if you take a good look at Gohan's costume, you'll think he's a total n00b.

[Godo]

Piccolo says that Kaioshin is much stronger than him, and the Daiz says so, as well. That theory that Piccolo was scared because of Kaioshin's ranking is what I think is the bullshit.

I don't give a damn about the Daizenshuu, and I think that the line in the manga is so wrong on many fronts, and the reason why Piccolo didn't fight him was badly executed.
It's something I won't support, simply, because it reaks of bullshit from a long way.

[Bussani]

I wasn't going to mention this, but in the Japanese version of the manga, doesn't Piccolo say that he and Kaioshin are "in two different dimensions"? Kind of devil's advocating, but that doesn't necessarily mean he was talking about power.

Or maybe I'm remembering the line wrong.

[Godo]

I wasn't going to mention this, but in the Japanese version of the manga, doesn't Piccolo say that he and Kaioshin are "in two different dimensions"? Kind of devil's advocating, but that doesn't necessarily mean he was talking about power.

Or maybe I'm remembering the line wrong.

That's what he says in the Swedish translation aswell.

[Senzu_Bean]

What Piccolo says referring to Kaioshin and himself is exactly the same Tenshinhan comments when he first sees Goku going Super Saiyan.

[Savage68]

I don't give a damn about the Daizenshuu

Unless it's contradicted by something, any guide is well above a fan's opinion.

I think that the line in the manga is so wrong on many fronts

Where's the guesswork? Piccolo blatantly stated just how much Kaioshin surpassed him, which was apparently by a lot.

I think I already asked it, but I'll do so again: Do you honestly think that Piccolo would've fared better against Buu than Kaioshin did?

[hleV]

Either Piccolo has gotten a lot weaker or he overestimated Supreme Kai.

[Senzu_Bean]

Either Piccolo has gotten a lot weaker or he overestimated Supreme Kai.

Or East Kaioshin is just plain stronger than Piccolo.

[Godo]

Unless it's contradicted by something, any guide is well above a fan's opinion.

No, that's your view of the whole thing. I read Dragonball, drawn and written by Akira Toriyama, not the Daizenshuu.
My perception of the story and the manga is not affected by the Daizenshuu.

If you want to go strictly by the Daizenshuu, by all means, do so. But I don't see it as something to take high in regard when it comes to it's facts, since my perception is different from reading the manga.

Where's the guesswork? Piccolo blatantly stated just how much Kaioshin surpassed him, which was apparently by a lot.

1) Dabura was as strong as Perfect Cell.
2) Piccolo could block a Cell Jr. fairly well (at least as strong as surpressed Cell, as Vegeta thought he could defeat Cell after his second time in the ROSAT).
3) After seven years, the Namek that was bound to protect the Earth would have been able to train enough to be able to withstand Cell. If he didn't train, he had no chance of going far in the Tenkaichi Budokai.
4) Kaioshin was scared of Dabra, whom he should have been able to defeat easily if he surpassed Piccolo's strength by that much. He wasn't even calm during Gohan and Dabra's fight.
These points say it all for me. I have been in different discussions on this matter and still, there is no one that has given me any better explanations except for "the Daizenshuu says so".

I think I already asked it, but I'll do so again: Do you honestly think that Piccolo would've fared better against Buu than Kaioshin did?

If I think that he was stronger than Kaioshin, then obviously, yes. -_-´
The way I see it, he reacted just like a normal guy would if he stood in front of a God, correction, the highest deity in the Universe.

[Kaboom]

Kaioshin probably is stronger than Piccolo. But he's a total wuss, so it doesn't really matter.

[Bussani]

Kaioshin thought Pui-Pui was a big deal, and Vegeta killed him without even going Super Saiyan.

[Dayspring]

The way I see it, he reacted just like a normal guy would if he stood in front of a God, correction, the highest deity in the Universe.

I saw it as a little bit like this. Basically I see Kaioshin is to Piccolo as Cell was to Goku. There'd be a pretty even fight, with Kaioshin taking lots of damage but eventually winning in the end. The reason I feel Piccolo didn't even go for that was because of the deific reason you mentioned.

[Xyex]

Kaioshin thought Pui-Pui was a big deal, and Vegeta killed him without even going Super Saiyan.

Yes, everyone already knows that Kaioshin is an idiot.

[Savage68]

No, that's your view of the whole thing.

Are you saying that we should take your opinion over Piccolo's statements and the Daiz'? If you're going to come up with an argument against the guides, at least do it right.

1) Dabura was as strong as Perfect Cell.

You realize there's a crapton of levels to Perfect Cell's power, don't you?

Piccolo could block a Cell Jr. fairly well (at least as strong as surpressed Cell, as Vegeta thought he could defeat Cell after his second time in the ROSAT).

Heavily suppressed PC is different than suppressed PC, and, no, Vegeta never thought he could kill Perfect Cell.

After seven years, the Namek that was bound to protect the Earth would have been able to train enough to be able to withstand Cell.

I've no idea what Namek you're talking about that was 'bound to protect the Earth', since that's cut in short after one fight and is completely discarded in favor of the Saiyans after that.

If he didn't train, he had no chance of going far in the Tenkaichi Budokai.

...He was still weaker than SSj 1 teen Gohan. It didn't matter if he trained or not - he was still going to end up stronger than #18 and weaker than all of the SSjs. Krillin also trained for the Budokai. Does that mean he had a chance of going far in it? :3

Kaioshin was scared of Dabra, whom he should have been able to defeat easily if he surpassed Piccolo's strength by that much.

Huh? SSj 1 Gohan was even with Dabura, and he was far above Kaioshin. And we all know that any SSj is much stronger than Piccolo.

Just because you surpass Piccolo's strength by far doesn't mean you'd be a threat to someone still much stronger than you.

I have been in different discussions on this matter and still, there is no one that has given me any better explanations except for "the Daizenshuu says so".

So I guess what they say is true. There's a first time for everything. You haven't given me anything better than conjecture, or the proportion that we should take your word over the story and/or guides(note that the story is what proves my point, and the Daiz is only back-up).

The way I see it, he reacted just like a normal guy would if he stood in front of a God, correction, the highest deity in the Universe.

I don't remember anyone acting that way around Kaio, who was the highest deity in the universe(before the lame Kaioshin retcon, of course).

Kaioshin thought Pui-Pui was a big deal

No he didn't. He didn't even know who Pui-Pui was. All he knew(or, all he thought) was that all of Babidi's fighters were powerful, and was overly cautious because he wanted to give Buu 0 energy, and also didn't want him to awake, even if it was at less than full strength.

[Piccolo Daimao]

If not for the Daizenshuu's slip-up in its listing (which is actually contradicted in another part), nobody would even think he was a Super Saiyan 2 at all.

I always thought people thought he was a Super Saiyan 2 because there was no reason for him not to be.

Yeah, I disagree with that too, and I add that it's bullshit that Piccolo was weaker than Kaioshin. He was just shitting his pants because of meeting the highest deity, with Kami inside him and all.

Although, most of the evidence provided in the manga and Daizenshuu does point to Kaiôshin being stronger than Piccolo.

[Piccolo Daimao]

[quote="Savage68"]Heavily suppressed PC is different than suppressed PC, and, no, Vegeta never thought he could kill Perfect Cell.

Uh, yeah, he did. After Goku asked Vegeta if he could go first, Vegeta said something along the lines of "Do you what you want, I'll still be the winner in the end" or "I'll still beat him in the end".

[Rocketman]

I always thought people thought he was a Super Saiyan 2 because there was no reason for him not to be.

No lightning~