How strong was Dabura?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I doubt SS Goku was in full power against Yakon, since Yakon wasn't any threat in Goku's eyes. Don't forget that Goku is a Super Saiyan Full Power at that point, meaning that he can freely control his power.

[RandomGuy96]

Vegeta calls SS2 Gohan weak and speaks like both he and Goku have left him in the dust at the tournament, even though he only outright said it later. I'm pretty sure Vegeta already knew Goku was at least stronger than that and on par with himself.

So Dabura sees EXACTLY how strong SSJ1 Goku was (3000 Kiri), yet is still completely confident in his ability to beat him, to the point that he tries to challenge all three of them at once. So how in the world would SSJ1 Gohan be able to last one second against him?

Good point. And there is no reason he wouldn't know his own level; he knew Yakon's. And kiris obviously measure something like battle power, evidenced by their shock that he was so strong.

There's also the fact that he outright says that Initial Fat Buu, s SS2 tier fighter, is "garbage, without brains or power", and Gohan doesn't doubt that Dabura can beat him (evidenced by his shock when Dabura loses).

[Fionordequester]

So let's say that's the case. What would you estimate to be Goku's full SSJ1 power in Kiri's? I don't see Goku's power being THAT low considering that he still had an aura.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Vegeta calls SS2 Gohan weak and speaks like both he and Goku have left him in the dust at the tournament, even though he only outright said it later. I'm pretty sure Vegeta already knew Goku was at least stronger than that and on par with himself.

He didn't even imply what you said. Vegeta only said that Gohan has gotten weaker.

Chapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P7.1-4
Gohan: “Well, I’ve become a Super Saiyan. Now what? Is it alright if I fight like this?”
Kibito: “…Wh-what tremendous power…I can’t believe he’s a being of the lower world!”
Vegeta: “…Hmph…That bastard, he was far, far better when he killed Cell. It’s because he slacked off in his training during peacetime…”
Kaioshin: “…No, even so this is magnificent energy, more so than I imagined…I wonder if I’ll be able to stop this power…”
Goku: “…Stop it?”

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

No, it's not obvious. He makes note of Goku actually surpassing Super Saiyan right as soon as he does it:

Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P10.5
Context: after Goku makes Yakon explode with his Super Saiyan aura
Vegeta: “So that bastard Kakarot has also surpassed that wall…The Super Saiyan wall…”

Pretty much. Goku and Vegeta were equal and put out a lot of damage; Gohan and Dabra were equal, and despite that, can barely move the damage meter.

Also, Gohan's quote seems to indicate that fighting beyond Super Saiyan brings greater damage. There's really no point in saying that if he himself and Dabra are already fighting at levels beyond Super Saiyan:

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P6.1-2
Context: after Majin Boo quickly reaches full power
Kaioshin: “Th-that’s impossible…Wh-why has Goku’s damage energy [filled it up] already…!?”
Gohan: “…I-I know…! Father is fighting at a level that has further surpassed Super Saiyan…Vegeta probably is too…If two incredible powers like that clash, th-the damage is astounding too…!”

Goku and Vegeta being stronger is one thing, but fighting at a level beyond Super Saiyan is another. Gohan and Dabra aren't clashing at levels beyond Super Saiyan, which is why there's no respectable damage.

Dabra also thinks Gohan is "trash" despite the fact that he was able to take his fireball with no damage and crush his sword in two. I wouldn't put much into him goading the Saiyans to attack him together.

And Vegeta at the tournament just talks about Gohan being better when he beat Cell, as shown in the quote DBZ posted above. He never made note of him and Goku being stronger until his display against Yakon.

[Fionordequester]

Alright, actually I want to talk about kiri's more, okey doke? So, supposedly Dabura is about Perfect Cell's level, right? And I think we can at least assume that Goku was referring to Perfect Cell at his full strength since I don't see any reason why Goku wouldn't say "he's about half as strong as Cell" in that case, right?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't see any reason why Goku wouldn't say "he's about half as strong as Cell" in that case.

Goku just told to Kaioshin "there was a guy 7 years ago, Cell, and Dabra seems to be as strong as him", which is a very generic description.

[RandomGuy96]

And you think he still thought that Goku, who would be a good match for him, was weaker than this weaker Gohan? And that he didn't think that he'd obtain SS2 when Vegeta himself did? I find that hard to believe when he already knows that Goku is a fighting genius who surpasses him all the time.

Keep in mind, Vegeta also never implied in that instance that anyone but him could take Dabura one on one. He just said that "we", as in, the group, would be able to manage something (again, usually used to refer to a difficult victory), and Goku said that Dabura probably wasn't "full force". He never implies Dabura is weak; even later he just says "he's not an opponent we can't win against", which would be dumb if Vegeta can just swat hin like a fly. He would just call him a weakling, like he did with Initial Fat Buu.

Speaking of energy... shouldn't Dabura have already been able to guess SS2 Gohan's power from the amount he filled up the meter? He was still confident he'd cream that guy. And there's still the Fat Buu scene.

[Fionordequester]

I don't see any reason why Goku wouldn't say "he's about half as strong as Cell" in that case.

Goku just told to Kaioshin "there was a guy 7 years ago, Cell, and Dabra seems to be as strong as him", which is a very generic description.

...So you're saying that it's just as likely that when Goku said "as strong as Cell", what he actually meant was "about as strong as Cell was around the time when we first started fighting at the tournament, before we actually got serious"? As opposed to "As strong as Perfect Cell's maximum power when he powered up against SSJ2 Gohan"?

[Kaboom]

Speaking of energy... shouldn't Dabura have already been able to guess SS2 Gohan's power from the amount he filled up the meter? He was still confident he'd cream that guy. And there's still the Fat Buu scene.

Bobbidi and Dabra didn't know where that power came from. They thought Spopovitch and Yamu got it from hundreds of people.

...So you're saying that it's just as likely that when Goku said "as strong as Cell", what he actually meant was "about as strong as Cell was around the time when we first started fighting at the tournament, before we actually got serious"?

Yes, it it likely. Even just Perfect Cell covered a very wide range of power which no other adversary matched or came close to. If Cell's power ranged from a 10 to a 20, and Dabra's a 12, then that's still "about as strong as Cell."

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Keep in mind, Vegeta also never implied in that instance that anyone but him could take Dabura one on one. He just said that "we", as in, the group, would be able to manage something

Are you serious? Since when was Vegeta a guy that was relying in teamwork? And if he believed that he, Goku, and Gohan could take on Dabra only through teamwork, why does he get pissed off with Gohan taking too long to finish Dabra?

...So you're saying that it's just as likely that when Goku said "as strong as Cell", what he actually meant was "about as strong as Cell was around the time when we first started fighting at the tournament, before we actually got serious"?

During the Cell Games, Cell showed us 5 different states: Warming-up Perfect Cell --> Serious Perfect Cell --> Full Power Perfect Cell --> Power-Weighted Perfect Cell --> Super Perfect Cell. Dabra can fit in any of the bold ones, depending on what form you believe Gohan is.

[Son_Gohan]

You can't use that example to contradict the Super Saiyan 2 traits. Goku used a burst of his Super Saiyan 2 power and immediately reverted back to Super Saiyan. He didn't even fully transform into it.

I'm not disputing those are Super Saiyan 2 traits, what it contradicts are their perception as be-all-end-all traits. If you followed Kaboom's logic, it wouldn't lead to the conclusion of Goku being a SSj2 there, which is why it's a flawed argument that's not convincing in the least. The fact that Toriyama depicted Goku's SSj2 form that way is evidence that he has a motive behind adding those traits or not, and simply being in the form doesn't necessitate the use of them.

That burst was powerful enough for Vegeta to state confidently that they had both surpassed Gohan now, and to him choosing to become possessed by Babidi. He did fully transform into it, but only for a split second. The title of the episode in the anime is even called "Goku's Power Wide Open!! Blow Away Yakon".

[Fionordequester]

Yes, it it likely. Even just Perfect Cell covered a very wide range of power which no other adversary matched or came close to. If Cell's power ranged from a 10 to a 20, and Dabra's a 12, then that's still "about as strong as Cell."

...And why is that? Suppose, hypothetically, that Piccolo, after being set free from Majin Buu by Goku and Vegeta, said something along the lines of "boy, that Gotenks-Buu guy was tough. He was twice as strong as Gotenks!". Are you telling me then that "Oh, it's just as likely that Piccolo was talking about SSJ1 Gotenk's as it is that he was talking about SSJ3 Gotenk's"? You do realize how...weird that sounds, don't you?

Warming-up Perfect Cell --> Serious Perfect Cell --> Full Power Perfect Cell --> Power-Weighted Perfect Cell --> Super Perfect Cell

In other words, "Not Serious at All Cell", "Near Full Power Cell", "Full Power Cell", "Full Power Using a Technique That Sacrifices Strength for Speed Cell", and "Super Powered Cell".

[RandomGuy96]

Are you serious? Since when was Vegeta a guy that was relying in teamwork? And if he believed that he, Goku, and Gohan could take on Dabra only through teamwork, why does he get pissed off with Gohan taking too long to finish Dabra?

Against Freeza? He says the same thing (we can manage something). And I don't think he was relying on team work, he just never implied that any one of them could squash him. And it would be really, really weird if he thought that Goku was the weakest there before the Yakon burst.

Because at this point, he saw both Gohan and Goku go SS2, and now knows that they're all stronger than Dabura. He's also seeing Dabura at full force (probably).

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Yeah, except that Freeza was treated like a threat, while Dabra wasn't. Vegeta & Goku believed that Gohan was strong enough to beat Dabra, but because Gohan had slacked off, the fight was getting too long, which is why Vegeta was getting impatient. And also, don't forget that Vegeta had gotten so impatient that he wanted to step in & finish Dabra by himself.

[Kaboom]

I'll bet if Vegeta had stepped in, transformed, and kicked Dabra's ass, but had the same aura as Gohan while doing so, nobody would be arguing that he was actually a Super Saiyan 2.

[Fionordequester]

I'll bet if Vegeta had stepped in, transformed, and kicked Dabra's ass, but had the same aura as Gohan while doing so, nobody would be arguing that he was actually a Super Saiyan 2.

Sorry Kaboom, but that's a straw man argument, which as I'm sure a lot of us know, is a fallacy. Anyways, here's what I posted, in case you missed it...

Yes, it it likely. Even just Perfect Cell covered a very wide range of power which no other adversary matched or came close to. If Cell's power ranged from a 10 to a 20, and Dabra's a 12, then that's still "about as strong as Cell."

...And why is that? Suppose, hypothetically, that Piccolo, after being set free from Majin Buu by Goku and Vegeta, said something along the lines of "boy, that Gotenks-Buu guy was tough. He was twice as strong as Gotenks!". Are you telling me then that "Oh, it's just as likely that Piccolo was talking about SSJ1 Gotenk's as it is that he was talking about SSJ3 Gotenk's"? You do realize how...weird that sounds, don't you?

Warming-up Perfect Cell --> Serious Perfect Cell --> Full Power Perfect Cell --> Power-Weighted Perfect Cell --> Super Perfect Cell

In other words, "Not Serious at All Cell", "Near Full Power Cell", "Full Power Cell", "Full Power Using a Technique That Sacrifices Strength for Speed Cell", and "Super Powered Cell". Out of ALL those possibilities, you're saying that "Full Power Cell" and "Super Powered Cell" weren't the most likely candidates for which "Cell" Goku was referring to?

[RandomGuy96]

....so? Vegeta probably could. Dabura wasn't all that strong, and by this point Vegeta had established that both he and Goku were stronger than Gohan.

Also, before the tournament, he told Gohan that there wasn't a big gap in their powers anymore, because he trained. I doubt that he would assume that Goku wasn't at a similar level, as Goku flat out said that he also trained all that time to Vegeta.

EDT: taking a break.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I'm not disputing those are Super Saiyan 2 traits, what it contradicts are their perception as be-all-end-all traits. If you followed Kaboom's logic, it wouldn't lead to the conclusion of Goku being a SSj2 there, which is why it's a flawed argument that's not convincing in the least. The fact that Toriyama depicted Goku's SSj2 form that way is evidence that he has a motive behind adding those traits or not, and simply being in the form doesn't necessitate the use of them.

The situations are still different, though. It was Goku's first time being shown as a Super Saiyan 2 and he quickly reverted back right after. We've actually seen Gohan as a Super Saiyan 2 with the traits a few chapters before. We've also seen him with the aura even after Cell did significant damage to him, so the lack of sparks can't be because he was weaker.

That burst was powerful enough for Vegeta to state confidently that they had both surpassed Gohan now, and to him choosing to become possessed by Babidi. He did fully transform into it, but only for a split second. The title of the episode in the anime is even called "Goku's Power Wide Open!! Blow Away Yakon".

He still reverted right after. Gohan was depicted as a Super Saiyan for the entire duration of the Manga after he showed the form to Kibito. Goku and Vegeta are drawn as Super Saiyan 2's while Gohan is drawn as a Super Saiyan on following pages. I don't think AT was looking to create a secret message for the readers--I just think he drew Gohan as a Super Saiyan.

[Kaboom]

I'll bet if Vegeta had stepped in, transformed, and kicked Dabra's ass, but had the same aura as Gohan while doing so, nobody would be arguing that he was actually a Super Saiyan 2.

Sorry Kaboom, but that's a straw man argument, which as I'm sure a lot of us know, is a fallacy. Anyways, here's what I posted, in case you missed it...

It's still a better point than anything being argued against the obvious answer.

Yes, it it likely. Even just Perfect Cell covered a very wide range of power which no other adversary matched or came close to. If Cell's power ranged from a 10 to a 20, and Dabra's a 12, then that's still "about as strong as Cell."

...And why is that? Suppose, hypothetically, that Piccolo, after being set free from Majin Buu by Goku and Vegeta, said something along the lines of "boy, that Gotenks-Buu guy was tough. He was twice as strong as Gotenks!". Are you telling me then that "Oh, it's just as likely that Piccolo was talking about SSJ1 Gotenk's as it is that he was talking about SSJ3 Gotenk's"? You do realize how...weird that sounds, don't you?

"Gotenks-Boo" is very specific, making direct reference to a specific form and the power that came with it. "Cell" is not. Even assuming Goku means "Cell in his perfect form" is an assumption in Dabra's favor.

"Twice as strong" is also very specific, assigning a straightforward amount or percentage of strength. "About as strong" is very vague.

So no, it's not weird to think "about as strong as Cell" means something other than "specifically Cell in his absolute strongest state."