Goku's mother...appearing soon?!

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Ugh, why? This sounds so pointless.

Unless they actually do another Bardock special or something :/

Id rather see Broly's Mother... If she was Legendary too..

[RandomGuy96]

Nope. Now he's the offspring of really amazing, great people, one of whom was a time-travelling hero AND Super Saiyan.

When you overexplain something it just becomes utterly f***ing stupid.

There's nothing wrong with elaborating on something. For example, I'd love to know more about Freeza's mysterious species. The problem is where they took the characters.

And Bardock already ruined the whole "low-class trash" image by being probably the 3rd or 2nd strongest saiyan in existence at the time of Planet Vegeta's destruction in the Bardock special.

Id rather see Broly's Mother... If she was Legendary too..

Oh Jesus fuck please no more Broly. Ever.

(Video Game Makers: lol no)

[DBZGTKOSDH]

A little baby doesn't have "memories". Saiyan babies destroy the planets they're sent to because it's in their nature to destroy.

Going by Toriyama's Jaco The Galactic Patrolman, Goku wasn't a baby, he was a 2-year-old boy that could fight and talk.

[RandomGuy96]

I guess that officially renders the Bardock special out of the manga's continuity.

[TheGmGoken]

I guess that officially renders the Bardock special out of the manga's continuity.

Not really. Just change the age of Goku. That's all. Hell honestly we don't even need that seeing the future stuff cause Bardock would most likely do the same thing(Unless you''re like me and count EOB).
So just by changing two things you still got the basic of Bardock's special.

- Bardock and crew went to a Planet and passed the job
- Freeza sends Dodoria and his crew to attack Bardock's crew and Bardock himself
- Bardock tries to warn everyone
- Bardock tries to save the race
- Bardock fails
- Bardock see his son's space pod before he goes out to attack Freeza
- Bardock realizes that Kakarot is the last Saiyan(From Bardock point of view everyone is dying) and want Kakarot to kill Freeza
- "KAKAROOOOOOOOOOOOT!"
- Goku Dragonball story started
- Goku kills Freeza(Trunks timeline)

[DBZGTKOSDH]

[quote="TheGmGoken"

I guess that officially renders the Bardock special out of the manga's continuity.

Not really. Just change the age of Goku. That's all. [/quote]
Nope. Toriyama's recent works, along with his words about Bardock, contradict too much things about the TV Special:

• Jaco The Galactic Patrolman has Goku as a 2 year-old instead of an infant.
• Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods has Planet Vegeta destroyed 39 years ago, and Goku is 41 years old, while the TV Special gives Planet Vegeta's destruction & Goku's birth the same date. It also shows Vegeta as a kid having the same hairstyle he has as an adult, instead of having a different hairstyle as the TV Special shows.
• According to Toriyama, Saiyans get promoted in ranks, but while Bardock was very strong for a low-class, he wasn't strong enough to get a promotion, meaning that his battle power can't be at nearly 10.000, as it's stated in the TV Special.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Oh Jesus fuck please no more Broly. Ever.(Video Game Makers: lol no)

I know what you're thinking, I didnt say that as one of Broly's obnoxious fanboys.. I said that out of honest curiosity, Broly wouldn't be so hate-able if he actually had some proper intergration and actual depth given to him. As he is constantly pushed through the Saiyan fanbase as the leading icon, something could at least redeem his irritating presence. Instead of giving him SSJ-SSJ4 fanwank garbage, he could have had more character development, backstory and actual self-awareness instead of his current 0.5 dimentional character concept.
What would Goku's Mother really do for him now? Unless she were to inspire pan, shes a useless extension demanded by fans who assume it be law that being a bastard son is wrong.

Whatever happened to Goku being brain damaged and from poor stock

When was it stated that Goku is a good guy because of his brain damage? All I know is that it erased his memories.

It was said a lot of times throught the earliest of the series in a cooky way that Goku had lost his Saiyan-instinctual programming after he hit his head and thus had to relearn everything eventually taking on the empathy of kind humans thinking he himself was human. Raditz even tries to force Goku to remember his instinctual need for superiority but Goku cant fight it in him to oppress people.

Nope. Toriyama's recent works, along with his words about Bardock, contradict too much things about the TV Special:

• Jaco The Galactic Patrolman has Goku as a 2 year-old instead of an infant.
• Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods has Planet Vegeta destroyed 39 years ago, and Goku is 41 years old, while the TV Special gives Planet Vegeta's destruction & Goku's birth the same date. It also shows Vegeta as a kid having the same hairstyle he has as an adult, instead of having a different hairstyle as the TV Special shows.
• According to Toriyama, Saiyans get promoted in ranks, but while Bardock was very strong for a low-class, he wasn't strong enough to get a promotion, meaning that his battle power can't be at nearly 10.000, as it's stated in the TV Special.

Basically everything Akira's considered nowadays has been contradicting the old work if not creating more fun-for-frustration plot hole gaps. Though, I don't except the idea that the Episode of Bardock should overwrite the TV-Special in terms of a canon source.

The TV special isnt that hard to adjust if we assume that Goku wasnt born the same day but only notifed to bardock when his power-level started to show and was rejected at that time he was tested. Bardock also may have only just recieved his 10.000 Lv. from the Zenkai's he got, and was never officially registered for a higher class surpassing his former.. as Freeza killed them all before King Vegeta knew of this apparently. Vegeta himself didnt even know Bardock was that strong and still only saw him as weak from his previous power level recording.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It was said a lot of times throught the earliest of the series in a cooky way that Goku had lost his Saiyan-instinctual programming after he hit his head and thus had to relearn everything eventually taking on the empathy of kind humans thinking he himself was human. Raditz even tries to force Goku to remember his instinctual need for superiority but Goku cant fight it in him to oppress people.

Yes, because Goku was taught to be evil. We also don't know to what extent he was evil. When he lost his memories, he was taught to be good from Son Gohan.

[TheGmGoken]

Nope. Toriyama's recent works, along with his words about Bardock, contradict too much things about the TV Special:

• Jaco The Galactic Patrolman has Goku as a 2 year-old instead of an infant.
• Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods has Planet Vegeta destroyed 39 years ago, and Goku is 41 years old, while the TV Special gives Planet Vegeta's destruction & Goku's birth the same date. It also shows Vegeta as a kid having the same hairstyle he has as an adult, instead of having a different hairstyle as the TV Special shows.
• According to Toriyama, Saiyans get promoted in ranks, but while Bardock was very strong for a low-class, he wasn't strong enough to get a promotion, meaning that his battle power can't be at nearly 10.000, as it's stated in the TV Special.

Your first two points should just be one. I mean I DID say change Goku's age. Which means Goku got sent out the same day the planet was destroyed. So that's not an issue really. About Vegeta's hairstyle. To be fair that's a different artist and animation. Same way Vegeta hair is sometimes Brown or Purple instead of Black. A hairstyle really should't be counted as a contradiction. More or less a different style drawing.

The third point has been theorize by Kaboom:

I wouldn't jump to conclusions about this so quickly -- Toriyama only strictly says that Bardock never was "promoted," not that he never got strong enough to be. If Bardock spent most of his time out on missions one after another and gained strength rapidly in the process, the opportunity for promotion may simply have never occurred.

I'm having flashbacks to the early parts of "part two" of Naruto, where Naruto himself returns to the village to find that most (if not all) of his peers have been promoted to Chunin level or higher, while Naruto himself is still technically a Genin in rank despite being stronger than most of them. I can easily picture something similar being the case with Bardock.

This make sense if you look at Bardock's workload.

It was said a lot of times throught the earliest of the series in a cooky way that Goku had lost his Saiyan-instinctual programming after he hit his head and thus had to relearn everything eventually taking on the empathy of kind humans thinking he himself was human. Raditz even tries to force Goku to remember his instinctual need for superiority but Goku cant fight it in him to oppress people.

Yes, because Goku was taught to be evil. We also don't know to what extent he was evil. When he lost his memories, he was taught to be good from Son Gohan.

I think Roshi explanation should cover that up. Goku was a bad boy. He hit his head. And BAM! He's acted better and was well be-haved. With Gohan teaching him basic stuff. This is similar to Okami-San from "Okami-san and her 7 companions". Before she hit her head. Okami-san was similar to Vegeta and Piccolo only talking to Little Red. She hit her head and for the rest of the ep she was nice. Same case goes for Goku.

[Ryuman]

Maybe Bardock never even wanted promotion? Being so popular with the low-levels with his sense of comradery probably wouldn't have him itching to move up above them. I suppose he'd be content in his own strength. Hell, maybe even that team spirit itself was what was holding back the decision.

[Marco Polo]

Maybe Bardock never even wanted promotion? Being so popular with the low-levels with his sense of comradery probably wouldn't have him itching to move up above them. I suppose he'd be content in his own strength. Hell, maybe even that team spirit itself was what was holding back the decision.

That goes against the Saiyan spirit. Seems very unlikely IMO.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

It was said a lot of times throught the earliest of the series in a cooky way that Goku had lost his Saiyan-instinctual programming after he hit his head and thus had to relearn everything eventually taking on the empathy of kind humans thinking he himself was human. Raditz even tries to force Goku to remember his instinctual need for superiority but Goku cant fight it in him to oppress people.

Yes, because Goku was taught to be evil. We also don't know to what extent he was evil. When he lost his memories, he was taught to be good from Son Gohan.

He wasnt "taught" to be "evil" he just lost his barbaric instinct from his head trauma, his personality was altered giving Gohan the chance to properly domesticate him. During his recovery he still retained his Saiyan need for self-preservation, he just learned how to control his need for battle through martial arts discipline and was taught to value other things like How his Grandpa taught him to treat girls nicely. He learned empathy, which sayians culturally lacked. It took vegeta at least 10 years to fully understand it and accept it as a strength.

Maybe Bardock never even wanted promotion? Being so popular with the low-levels with his sense of comradery probably wouldn't have him itching to move up above them. I suppose he'd be content in his own strength. Hell, maybe even that team spirit itself was what was holding back the decision.

That goes against the Saiyan spirit. Seems very unlikely IMO.

If his chance at promotion was really a choice, I'd assume that he declined for his loyalty to his friends. I mean hes partnered in a life-group with his best bud, why would he want to leave? Theres also the chance that he'd choose to be a low-class because hes already settled as one and doesnt care.

[Gozar]

I don't really see the problem with Goku being depicted as two years old. Who's to say that it didn't take Goku's space pod two years to land on earth? It took Vegeta and Nappa nearly a year to arrive from wherever they were. Two years isn't too hard to believe. As for Goku appearing to be a child, that can easily be chalked up to him sleeping in the space pod the entire time without normal nutrition (Presuming whatever he was hooked up to is bare bones). Also, Goku's appearance is that of a small child up until at least the age of 15, so what's to say that when he landed on earth he wasn't just a two year old that looked like an infant?

[MDSTSSJ]

[*]According to Toriyama, Saiyans get promoted in ranks, but while Bardock was very strong for a low-class, he wasn't strong enough to get a promotion, meaning that his battle power can't be at nearly 10.000, as it's stated in the TV Special.[/list]

This is crazy! In the TV special, is stated that Bardock have a power of nearly 10.000 and that can not be changed even if Toriyama now implies otherwise!

Kaboom's explanation fits way better: " Toriyama only strictly says that Bardock never was "promoted," not that he never got strong enough to be. If Bardock spent most of his time out on missions one after another and gained strength rapidly in the process, the opportunity for promotion may simply have never occurred "

[MDSTSSJ]

[*]Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods has Planet Vegeta destroyed 39 years ago, and Goku is 41 years old, while the TV Special gives Planet Vegeta's destruction & Goku's birth the same date. It also shows Vegeta as a kid having the same hairstyle he has as an adult, instead of having a different hairstyle as the TV Special shows.

I think BoG is wrong on that. Planet Vegeta was destroyed at the same period ( month, week, days ) that Goku was born.

[Gozar]

This is crazy! In the TV special, is stated that Bardock have a power of 10.000 and that can not be changed even if Toriyama now implies otherwise!

I agree with this. Just like when Toei contradicts Toriyama and we write things off as "just filler," I feel that Bardock is not really Toriyama's character. He took Toei's character and made it a part of his own story without truly contradicting anything directly. Unless Toriyama were to come out and say that the Bardock in his story has a Battle Power of X, I find no reason to throw away what the TVSP said.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I think BoG is wrong on that. Planet Vegeta was destroyed at the same period ( month, week, days ) that Goku was born.

In the anime, yes. In the manga alone, which is pretty much all Toriyama seems to concern himself with, is the works he had a real part in writing, it's never specified when exactly Vegeta was destroyed until Jaco and Battle of Gods. Freeza gave a year during his arc (wasn't it 30 years, even though Goku was only 25?), but that seems more like and estimate since it doesn't line up with any of the other dates at all.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Your first two points should just be one. I mean I DID say change Goku's age. Which means Goku got sent out the same day the planet was destroyed.

You can't just change Goku's age. Goku was either 0 years old baby or a 2 year old boy. There is a big difference.

Same way Vegeta hair is sometimes Brown or Purple instead of Black. A hairstyle really should't be counted as a contradiction. More or less a different style drawing.

Different style or not, it contradicts what we see in BoG, what we see in the Kanzenban spine art, and what Vegeta says in the manga about Saiyan hair.

The third point has been theorize by Kaboom:

I wouldn't jump to conclusions about this so quickly -- Toriyama only strictly says that Bardock never was "promoted," not that he never got strong enough to be. If Bardock spent most of his time out on missions one after another and gained strength rapidly in the process, the opportunity for promotion may simply have never occurred.

I'm having flashbacks to the early parts of "part two" of Naruto, where Naruto himself returns to the village to find that most (if not all) of his peers have been promoted to Chunin level or higher, while Naruto himself is still technically a Genin in rank despite being stronger than most of them. I can easily picture something similar being the case with Bardock.

This make sense if you look at Bardock's workload.[/quote]
I disagree. Toriyama was asked about Bardock's battle power, and he says that even though he was strong, he was still a low class, meaning that his battle power wasn't mid class level.

He wasnt "taught" to be "evil" he just lost his barbaric instinct from his head trauma, his personality was altered giving Gohan the chance to properly domesticate him. During his recovery he still retained his Saiyan need for self-preservation, he just learned how to control his need for battle through martial arts discipline and was taught to value other things like How his Grandpa taught him to treat girls nicely. He learned empathy, which sayians culturally lacked. It took vegeta at least 10 years to fully understand it and accept it as a strength.

What instinct? Goku knew how to fight when he arrived on Earth, which means that he was educated about how to fight and how to behave.

I think BoG is wrong on that. Planet Vegeta was destroyed at the same period ( month, week, days ) that Goku was born.

But you opinion & Toei's TV Special contradict Toriyama's Jaco, and I place Toriyama above Toei or fans when it comes to the manga. What you say applies to the anime, not to the manga.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Different style or not, it contradicts what we see in BoG, what we see in the Kanzenban spine art, and what Vegeta says in the manga about Saiyan hair.

It doesn't contradict anything about the actual hair growth, or lack of. Their hair just doesn't keep growing like ours would, it reaches that specific length and stops. Toriyama has confirmed that their hair style can change with age, and that's how Nappa went bald.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I'm not particularly fond of Gine being 'kind' of any sort. I think that waters down what makes the Saiyans so great. Now, if she was K'Ehleyr from Star Trek: The Next Generation, that would be awesome.

It makes me question if Toriyama even remembers how Goku became a good person.

I dont like it ethier, it undermines the original symbolic meaning of what Bardock represented in his charactization. It wasn't about wether sayians were good or evil, they were soldiers harded by loyalty and valued it above anything else being the only ethic they had. It was alsso about Bardock realizing that he was going to pay for his sins as a apathist and bare witness to his own genocide in bad karma but still fighting to change his ethics.
I don't know where all this corny pure-hearted, destined to be an "Ally to Good; nightmare to evil" concept keeps coming from as the true advantage in Goku suddenly comes from now suggesting that Goku wasn't a good person because he was unlike the other sayians by his beliefs, but a good person only because he inherited it just like his SSJ power... now it was Goku's destiny rather than something he was rewarded for because he stuck to his beliefs.

What instinct? Goku knew how to fight when he arrived on Earth, which means that he was educated about how to fight and how to behave..

No he wasnt. He was a baby on planet Vegeta, physically unable to fight and was a baby when Gohan picks him up and names him. he had no education on anything human babies lacked. His "Saiyan instinct" is the horomonal force that drives their infants to be harder to raise as they are as Goku was described tempermental and deeloped physically faster. Despite it Goku was wild but untrained. He only learned how to fight correctly through his Grandpa a martial artist.
Compared to Vegeta, Turles, Nappa and Broly - Goku is the only fighter who has form, technique and understanding of meditation. Thus WHY hes always superior to Vegeta.

Different style or not, it contradicts what we see in BoG, what we see in the Kanzenban spine art, and what Vegeta says in the manga about Saiyan hair.

It doesn't contradict anything about the actual hair growth, or lack of. Their hair just doesn't keep growing like ours would, it reaches that specific length and stops. Toriyama has confirmed that their hair style can change with age, and that's how Nappa went bald.

Its the one dub error that was totally lost in translation among the fanbase, most people actually think Raditz was born with his mane and that sayians having mustaches is a plothole.